I have been involved in several of the recent posts regarding Grand National attendance and specifically the cars. Many of the posts have evolved in lengthy commentaries on judging. I am not intending for this post to try and "reinvent the wheel" but wondering how we as a club have input into the judging format and how to voice some of the simple concerns. I have heard the complaints from judges that it takes so long to judge that they don't get to see the other cars after they are through judging before the cars are gone from the show field. I have also heard that some only wanted to display their cars but if it cost the same to have them judged then let them judge them. I think that many appreciate the combination of the touring and primary judging but the lumping of the senior cars into the mix doesn't seem quite right. We have needed to address the judging for a number of years but I hope that we are still a work in progress. !) If Display Only cost were lower we might see more vehicles on the show field. 2) If the judging form were not quite so lengthy and detailed for the Touring and Primary Class vehicles we might not have judges spending all day judging. 3) If Senior Class was judged as a separate class by a select group of judges with a very detailed form, it would be more accurately and honestly judged. 4) If times to begin judging and times for allowed removal of show cars were updated to match each shows specific needs it would allow more people to view the cars. Just some thoughts and things that I have heard as a judge on the field. Not trying to start from scratch but just trying to "tweak" what we have.
Greg,
Barry Wheeler mentioned there is a call tonight to recap the Grand National. I don't know if judging is a topic for that call, so you may want to reach out to Bill Anderson or other members of the judging committee directly. They are listed in the CLC Judging Manual 2018.
Thanks.
Vince
I think half the problem is the lack of judges. The AACA also has the same problem. I've only judged once (71-78 Eldorados of which I know enough the get me through). That was a big class in Quincy. We had 22 cars to judge. It was a run of work.
My thought is that there needs to be some sort of incentive to attract judges beyond the points system. Either waiving the Grand National fee or a free dinner at the awards banquet for the judge and their companion. A token of appreciation for their time.
Just my two cents. I know it couldn't hurt.
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on July 09, 2018, 08:15:07 PM
I think half the problem is the lack of judges. The AACA also has the same problem. I've only judged once (71-78 Eldorados of which I know enough the get me through). That was a big class in Quincy. We had 22 cars to judge. It was a run of work.
My thought is that there needs to be some sort of incentive to attract judges beyond the points system. Either waiving the Grand National fee or a free dinner at the awards banquet for the judge and their companion. A token of appreciation for their time.
Just my two cents. I know it couldn't hurt.
There used to be a judges breakfast, but that was hardly an incentive because you pretty much had to be there to go over the "house rules", etc.
Mike, there is still a judges breakfast, this year it did not cost the club anything because the hotel served a complementary breakfast and we just went down and ate breakfast and then to the briefing. Also judges get a free lunch. At McLean it was a hot dog or hamburger and a Coke, at San Marcis it was a nice sandwich, chips, apple, cookie, and a Coke.
Dan I agree the judges should get a complementary banquet ticket for them selves, and then they would only have to pay for their family members. The banquet is a revenue source for the event so the CLC could not give tickets to the judges family, only the judge. IMHO.
That's a good point Lynn - that could be a good enough carrot at the end of the stick.
Greg, thank you for your help on the Class 25 Authenticity Manual and stating your concerns about judging.
I have judged at only one GN, the one closest to my home, and would not do it again, no matter how fine a breakfast was provided. For me, it was too much precious time spent at just one class of cars, at the expense of being able to linger at other classes of cars and browse the vendor booths. Indeed, the class I was asked to judge was not one where I had any great knowledge of the cars.
You needn't be too delicate about requesting changes to judging. I'm not going to mince words here. These are not "forum concerns". They are concerns that suggest a problem in club governance.
Mr. Rubin, EVP, had a marvelous, poignant editorial in the latest Self-Starter about not turning a cold shoulder to entrants at meets. His editorial was about conduct at meets, but it should apply equally to club governance, including major revisions to the club, such as revisions to the C&LC Constitution and By-Laws, and to a restructuring of judging that took place in recent years.
Within just a few months of Carl Steig's death, there was a movement in this club to revamp judging. The changes to our judging were proposed mainly by a "blue-ribbon" committee, and the C&LC adopted certain changes not slowly and incrementally over four or six years, but ASAP. How vigorously did the club invite proposals from ordinary rank-and-file members? How much of that input was accepted? How did the club streamline the process to take less of the judges' and tabulators' time?
Judging was already cumbersome and time-consuming before the "new judging" was implemented. Reading your message here, I take it that the new system of brownie points for judges has apparently not been enough incentive to get people to serve as judges. I wonder if some of the new curlicues added to our judging may actually be a turn-off to prospective judges. Certainly the top-down-management style by which these changes were proposed would not have inspired prospective judges to feel that they had a hand in fixing a judging system that they are expected to staff.
People like you and me, Greg, were never supposed to have much say in how judging should be changed, or how quickly. That much was made clear by the "closed circle of chairs", to borrow Mr. Rubin's imagery. I suggest you leave the problem with the "blue ribbon committee". Maybe they can judge all of the cars for us.
Quote from: Tom Hall 7485 on July 10, 2018, 09:12:56 AM
Greg, thank you for your help on the Class 25 Authenticity Manual and stating your concerns about judging.
I have judged at only one GN, the one closest to my home, and would not do it again, no matter how fine a breakfast was provided. For me, it was too much precious time spent at just one class of cars, at the expense of being able to linger at other classes of cars and browse the vendor booths. Indeed, the class I was asked to judge was not one where I had any great knowledge of the cars.
You needn't be too delicate about requesting changes to judging. I'm not going to mince words here. These are not "forum concerns". They are concerns that suggest a problem in club governance.
Mr. Rubin, EVP, had a marvelous, poignant editorial in the latest Self-Starter about not turning a cold shoulder to entrants at meets. His editorial was about conduct at meets, but it should apply equally to club governance, including major revisions to the club, such as revisions to the C&LC Constitution and By-Laws, and to a restructuring of judging that took place in recent years.
Within just a few months of Carl Steig's death, there was a movement in this club to revamp judging. In fact, the new Chief Judge could not wait to get his hands on the judging process. The changes to our judging were proposed mainly by a "blue-ribbon" committee, and the C&LC adopted certain changes not slowly and incrementally over four or six years, but ASAP. How vigorously did the club invite proposals from ordinary rank-and-file members? How much of that input was accepted? How did the club streamline the process to take less of the judges' and tabulators' time?
Judging was already cumbersome and time-consuming before the "new judging" was implemented. Reading your message here, I take it that the new system of brownie points for judges has apparently not been enough incentive to get people to serve as judges. I wonder if some of the new curlicues added to our judging may actually be a turn-off to prospective judges. Certainly the top-down-management style by which these changes were proposed would not have inspired prospective judges to feel that they had a hand in fixing a judging system that they are expected to staff.
People like you and me, Greg, were never supposed to have much say in how judging should be changed, or how quickly. That much was made clear by the "closed circle of chairs", to borrow Mr. Rubin's imagery. I suggest you leave the problem with the "blue ribbon committee". Maybe they can judge all of the cars for us.
Tom - this is the best comment I have seen on judging since I've been a member of the forum and of the club. Allow me to buy you a beverage of your choice should our paths ever cross!
I was at the board meeting when the changes were first being discussed. I thought exactly the same thing you are thinking now. I've been a judge and I've had a car judged. Maybe I missed it, but I did not see any call for input in the Self Starter, via email, or letter in my mailbox regarding proposed changes. Was there a referendum? If so, I didn't get the ballot.
Point very well stated in your reply.
Well stated Tom Hall !! Pretty sad when the Chief Judge isn't even a member of the local chapter but attends some of our meets, he sure was "pushy" about getting donations for the museum from our chapter when funds were needed ! As long as he sits on the board, the CLC Museum won't get a dime of my money. The awards he designed and handed out for the " Modified Class " at the 2017 GN were in my opinion were tasteless compared to all other awards. He needed a sponsor for those awards and I gladly agreed to pay out of my own pocket with the understanding that I would have some input in the design of the award, he flat out refused to let me help out with the design so I declined to provide any funding for such award. Below is a resemblance of the award I would've chosen to give out but was told by Bill Anderson that it wasn't in good taste of the CLC !!!! If somebody can provide a picture of the 2017 GN " Modified Classs" award, please post.
You know it never ceases to amaze me the way we fiscally prioritize. A car that we wold not think twice about spending $300.00 for an emblem or trim piece that is only marginally better than the one on our cars, $6000 + on a paint job, $5-7000 for an interior, $2-3000 for chrome plating, etc. and then gripe about a few dollars for hotels, registration, and the trip there.
The GN fee for "display only" was $25.00 per car. How does that compare to $15.00 per day for hotel parking?
Let's get our priorities straight.
Greg Surfas
In response to Greg in his first statement, it was a big mistake including the Senior Class with the Primary!
We all may have issues with the judging standards but having been a judge for various classes of car since 1976 i believe many of your are missing the point here. First of all, in my opinion, for what it is worth the " chief judge Bill Anderson" has done a terrific job of bringing up the quality and standard of the judging. Yes, I too, have some issues with standards Bill has set up for judging but he and his committee have worked very hard and admit the judging is still "a work in progress" and until somebody is ready to "step up to the plate" and do the job or give constructive criticism to the job that he is doing then they should back down with their comments. I, over the years, have had Camaro's judged, a 53 and 54 Bentley's (over 35 year a member of RROC), and 2 Cadillacs a 48 6267x and currently a 49 6267x. I have driven all cars to shows and meets unless over 200 miles including a trip to Las Vegas from Southern Ca. for the National. Cars are cars and we can always learn how to tweak them for the local shows or GN, if reasonable distance. My two cents worth and cudos to Bill and his team and look forward to the 2019 "revised" judging sheets with some mods.
My 2 cents, the one over arching issue with judging that I have noticed is inconsistency, and that is an area that needs a lot of work. I know the Chief Judge is trying to address this with training but the inconsistency is perverse. Which is no ones fault including the chief judge. For example, a car taken to one Grand National does not even qualify for an award and at the very next Grand National gets a first place. It has happened, and it is all the luck of the draw, that is what team you get. For example, some judging teams spend a great deal of time on one car and breeze though the next. Or, members from a specific region highly score a regional car or cars and really go over a car from outside the region with a fine tooth comb. Now the CLC and the Chief Judge can not control this. This is the result of the make up of the teams and those volunteering to be judges.
In fact the CLC is trying desperately to make a CLC Senior Class awardees equate to a Bloomington Gold or a NCRS Top Flight. Award. IMHO that is not possible but I admire the dedication of those involved in making the CLC Awards as recognizable in auto club circles as those of Bloomington and NCRS. The facts noted by Dan LaBlanc, Tom Hall, and Dan Ruby are on the mark, but so to is the observations by Herman Desser, There are a lot of moving parts in making the judging more standardized and fair to all. We are loosing each year a lot of experience and knowledge due to the passing of time. My hope is that all the experienced hands continue to take part in the Grand National and participate in the judging so their knowledge can be passed on to those who come after them. I know I learn something new every time I participate and while my area of knowledge revolves around the last of the big ones 1971-1976,. However, I pick up new information about other eras at each event. Just my 2 cents worth and I really like how our members speak their mind and point out areas for improvement instead of just heading for the door.
Best, Lynn
I've attended many GN events and shows in all the years I've been associated with the CLC, since 1973 may I say, only to watch and listen as judges make their remarks about vehicles they're judging, I've seen favoritism over one car from another because of the color of the vehicle. I myself chose to "display only" my vehicles and go about my business and enjoy the show and the many people I know in the club. I learned years ago that I wasn't going to let 1-3 judges ruin my day at a show because it wasn't up to their standards. Trophies, plaques, awards are nice to receive for showing your vehicle, lord knows I have many over the years, but I can tell you my feelings don't get hurt for receiving nothing. I've seen club members spew hateful remarks about not receiving an award. There will always be a car better than another in a class or show, get over it ! If your taking a vehicle to a GN and not expecting an award, then you'll never leave with your feelings hurt. Now, on a side note, every member of a Region MUST join the CLC, this is in the bylaws. I feel that it is only fair that ALL board members be required to join and support their LOCAL region in the area they reside in. Potomac Region is fortunate to have a few board members that are active and support the club....just my opinion.
First of all, I understand that judging in any car Club
is always a subject that draws comments from the
members both good and bad. I've had cars judged
at our Grand National meets a number of times. I've
also had cars judged by the AACA and several well
known concourse events. None were perfect, all had
issues. I accept that and applaud Bill Anderson for
trying to improve our system. This can't happen
overnight. One BIG step is the judges training
program.
Myself, I've attended over 20 grand national events
and judged at most of those from 1992 onwards. My
wife Karen worked in the tabulation room during those
years. There were times as Team Captain that I was
the only person on the team of four with experience.
We need EXPERIENCED judges and Bill is addressing
that.
What I strongly object to are the comments made by
some members against Bill Anderson that were not
at all in the form of constructive criticism, but a straight
forward personal attack. Statements such as "he couldn't
wait to get his hands on the judging process" and "he
had the nerve to ask for museum donations" were the
lowest and most crude remarks I've seen on this forum.
Bill Anderson is not only the Chief Judge but President
of the CLCMRC (Museum). I served on the Museum Board
for 4 years with Bill and know him well. He is a tireless
worker for the CLC and spent hundreds of hours
supervising the construction of our museum at Hickory
Corners. From selecting the contractors, working with
the engineers from the first shovel of dirt to the final
coats of paint he was there.
What's more the construction came in on budget and on
time, and best of all our $1 million Dollar museum is paid
for -- due to generous donations from many CLC members.
You have to ASK for donations -- that's what fundraising
is all about.
So -- to those who would criticize and pummel someone
like Bill with low ball comments I ask:
Just where the hell were you when all these committes
were doing their work, spending hours in meetings and
traveling at their own expense conducting Club business?
Yes, that's what I thought. In the future, let's keep these
discussions civil, constructive and helpful.
Mike
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on July 10, 2018, 11:24:32 AM
Tom - this is the best comment I have seen on judging since I've been a member of the forum and of the club. Allow me to buy you a beverage of your choice should our paths ever cross!
I was at the board meeting when the changes were first being discussed. I thought exactly the same thing you are thinking now. I've been a judge and I've had a car judged. Maybe I missed it, but I did not see any call for input in the Self Starter, via email, or letter in my mailbox regarding proposed changes. Was there a referendum? If so, I didn't get the ballot.
Point very well stated in your reply.
Yeah, I didn't get the memo either.
I like what Tom wrote, and I knew of it already. It's the same elite at the top mentality and the we know more then you do so don't bother asking, attitude that turns many folks off completely.
Quote from: 49 Convertible on July 10, 2018, 04:57:43 PM
We all may have issues with the judging standards but having been a judge for various classes of car since 1976 i believe many of your are missing the point here. First of all, in my opinion, for what it is worth the " chief judge Bill Anderson" has done a terrific job of bringing up the quality and standard of the judging. Yes, I too, have some issues with standards Bill has set up for judging but he and his committee have worked very hard and admit the judging is still "a work in progress" and until somebody is ready to "step up to the plate" and do the job or give constructive criticism to the job that he is doing then they should back down with their comments. I, over the years, have had Camaro's judged, a 53 and 54 Bentley's (over 35 year a member of RROC), and 2 Cadillacs a 48 6267x and currently a 49 6267x. I have driven all cars to shows and meets unless over 200 miles including a trip to Las Vegas from Southern Ca. for the National. Cars are cars and we can always learn how to tweak them for the local shows or GN, if reasonable distance. My two cents worth and cudos to Bill and his team and look forward to the 2019 "revised" judging sheets with some mods.
Its more like, those at the top won't listen. Has anyone from the judging committee or the chief judge ever came on the forums to even acknowledge the issues?
I remember a few years ago, that ANY reference to judging that was not in the highest regard warranted an immediate deletion of the post(s). That's no way to run an open forum, that WE PAY to be a club member in.
[quoteI remember a few years ago, that ANY reference to judging that was not in the highest regard warranted an immediate deletion of the post(s). That's no way to run an open forum, that WE PAY to be a club member in. ][/quote]
What was not permitted to be discussed or argued on
the forum was not the general subject of judging, but
the RESULTS of how your or another car was judged.
The protocol was that such questions or complaints be
forwarded to the chief judge (then, Carl Steig) for
resolution.
I assume that hasn't changed, but if someone has a
question about the topic I suggest that he/she contact
Bill Anderson.
Mike
What is not allowed is in the Forum Rules.
"• No disparaging remarks against CLC judging results from Cadillac & LaSalle Club events."
So everyone please take note. And be civil.
Bruce. >:D
(IBTL)
OK, I'm done with this thread. Don't want to get banned.
All of this reminds me why I have ZERO interest in the whole judging conundrum. Do we really need it to appreciate our hobby? Look at how crazy the corvette hobby has become with all the numbers. Less is more sometimes!
Mike Josephic, I believe you are a fine person with the club's best interests at heart, and I appreciate your defense of our Chief Judge. I shall edit my comment above to lessen its harshness. I am aware that I have some sharp edges.
The fact remains, though, that this club failed to ask the membership whether we wanted judging changed; what changes we might like; and over what period of time those proposed changes should be implemented. The Chief Judge already had a lot on his plate when he was appointed Chief Judge, and for that reason alone, another person should possibly have been appointed Chief Judge. (He was then Director of Technical Services (oversight of the Authenticity Manual program, etc.) and if I am not mistaken, also supervisor of Museum construction, or soon would have that role). He and the other members of The Closed Circle of Chairs quickly began changing our judging, abolishing Senior Division (maybe for good reason, but I wouldn't know what that reason is because the case for it was not made very conspicuously); changing award names, and adding things that don't make life any easier for us. This was not work that urgently needed to be done. "Old judging", while flawed, was at least familiar. (One of its main difficulties is that staffing needs are so great that exhibitors sometimes need to judge, meaning that they have to be at their cars for one part of the judging, but serve as judges during another part of the judging -- nearly the dilemma of having to be in two places at once. This problem requires very clever planning of shifts and is not treated by revising Mr. Steig's carefully chosen words in the old judging manual or adding classes of cars and new display areas.)
Quote from: V63 on July 11, 2018, 06:27:38 AM
All of this reminds me why I have ZERO interest in the whole judging conundrum. Do we really need it to appreciate our hobby?
The short answer is that more Club members prefer judging to be an integral part of the CLC than those that do not.
Nobody is imposing participation in the judging process on anyone who simply prefers displaying his/her car. If that isn't enough to satisfy the anti-judging crowd, I don't know what is.
Any board members reading.........Tom has a very valid point that should be addressed.
Tom, you make another excellent point. I think there was a bit of cart before the horse. It was no secret that we had a problem in the judge's pool that needed to be addressed first. Logical step number one would be get more judges and then do the education bit. THEN, once you have EDUCATED judges, then you change the judging criteria.
I remember in Lake George, one lady on the team judging my 61 made the comment to me that she knew next to nothing about 61/62's and was put there. Thankfully, Jim Eccleston was the team captain and I was in good hands knowing that here score was going to be thrown out (if I recall correctly, under the old system, four judges judged and either the highest or lowest - maybe both - scores were factored out).
Like Eric says though, whether I agree or disagree with the new judging rules, it wouldn't stop me either from attending a GN. Our plan is to attend in 2021 in New Jersey with the 70. It will be a display only car, and I likely won't participate in judging either, but I'll still enjoy my time there seeing some old friends and meeting some new ones.
"The Closed Circle of Chairs" - I Like it ;)
Quote[ Logical step number one would be get more judges and then do the education bit. THEN, once you have EDUCATED judges, then you change the judging criteria./quote]
Dan, your comment doesn't make any sense. Let's say we
manage to recruit new judges -- then educate them with the
"Old Rules". Then you turn around and tell them "sorry
folks, we now have a new rulebook" -- can you imagine how
confused these new recruits would be?
Sorry that you had an inexperienced judge in Lake George,
but that is an issue in all clubs. I'll relate a short story from
an ACCA meet when I had my 1955 Eldorado up for a First
Senior. One of the judges looked under the hood and smiled
to me and said: "Wow -- I love those trip deuces on your car".
Yes, he was serious. As we all know the 1955 had dual quads.
Mike
No. My comment was to educate them on what they're looking at and what it should look like to be correct first THEN tighten up the requirements. What's the sense in having stringent requirements if judges don't have experience in what should be correct?
Not that all judges are like that but there should be an established baseline.
I am reading this in amusement. I have made comments before about this topic and was shut down immediately. They were about the process and not about the people.
They were also less personal than what I have read here. Yes some of the comments are VERY personal, but to be honest there is some degree of truth in them. But I will not detail my personal experiences with some of the powers that be.
But with that being said. You can try to educate all you want but people need to really work at this when they start to judge. The people who judge have to take it seriously and educate themselves too. They need not only to go to a seminar but read the Judging Manual.
Also people who enter the cars need to read the manual!! If you do you would not be whining about this deduction or that if you are being honest with yourself about your car. I read the manual did what I wanted to do and did enough to have 2 Primary winners and a Senior Crown winner. I did my homework, so if you do yours you can decide if you want to put in the work. If you don't you don't win. It's that easy.
Also how about giving an authenticity manual to all who judge a particular class? Also making sure an expert in the class is with each team. But at the end of the day it will be inconsistent to a point since well people are people. They can be inconsistent.
I have felt I know more about the process than some of the judges, why? I read the manual!!!!
My biggest issue with the new rules are not throwing out the high and low scores. Since I know scores can vary from my experience, but when I discussed this in private with the proper people I got shut down and ignored. So there is a culture problem here too. Where input was not appreciated nor wanted. I have mentioned this to a few other board people but have been ignored. But as a 3 time winner you would think my opinion might be respected and considered.
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on July 11, 2018, 04:55:31 PM
No. My comment was to educate them on what they're looking at and what it should look like to be correct first THEN tighten up the requirements.
Dan, I am curious what "correct" means in this context? The judging process includes operational (e.g. do the turn signals work), workmanship (e.g. are your valve cover covered in grease), condition (e.g. is the chrome on your bumpers pitting) and authenticity (is it like it was delivered new to the 1st owner?). Authenticity is just 1 of 4 criteria.
To successfully judge a car everyone needs to read and know the Judging Manual, and you need at least one authenticity expert on the team. You do not need 4 authenticity experts. If the suggestion is that you need 4 experts on every team I disagree. Almost anyone can help in the way of operational, workmanship and condition. As I noted in another thread you can lose a lot more points by way of operational, workmanship and condition deductions than a few authenticity issues.
If your comment was to educate in general regarding how to deduct for condition, workmanship, and inoperative items, as well as authenticity I tend to agree to a point. As noted in the old judges manual, most of us car guys and gals are pretty good judges as to whether or not something operates (works), condition and workmanship, and feel a refresher, like the new one-day workshops where several can go over a car they may not be familiar with, is a good thing. Getting 4 SMEs on one class of car at a GN will be a stretch! I've judged in classes I am not as familiar with (19 and 21) and as long as I had that someone to turn to quickly for guidance on authenticity issues I felt capable to judge regarding operation, workmanship and condition. Just my 2 cents.
Jason makes some excellent points that make sense.
Having one expert on "Authenticity" on a team is
sufficient. That person should be the Team Captain.
You only become an "expert" in this area either
because you (1) have judged that particular class for
a number of years (2) have restored a car in that class
(3) have helped write an authenticity manual for that
class.
If you think those requirements are impossible to
meet -- they are not because I've done them as have
others. Experience is your most valuable friend here.
Authenticity is one subject that can be taught only on
a limited basis. Every class has slightly different
nuances and any educational effort, at best, can only
give a novice an overall idea of what items need to
be looked at -- but not what all of the correct details
should be.
Mike
In 2008 at Cherry Hill, I entered my car, and it was placed in with all the other like-years, and looked really nice.
BUT, when it came to judging, I opted out simply because (to me) it wasn't worth wasting the judges time, as it would have rated so lowly in the scale that the points would not have gone low enough.
I found out that if I initially didn't want it judged, I would have been parked off to the side, and probably out of sight.
I felt proud that it was parked with its' like years, and have some lovely pictures of the event. Actually a lot of pictures. Would have had more pictures if the hotel hadn't been locked-down, blocking me from returning to my room to get replacement batteries.
The only awards I usually receive is Longest Distance, and Hard Luck.
Bruce. >:D
PS. My problem with the awards is that there are so many, and the Awards Ceremony (Dinner) goes on for so long that after the first 20 are presented, the masses get bored, and don't appreciate those receivers toward the end of the night. Heck, I have seen people actually leave the venue well before the end.
I must say that I am pleased to see that I am not the only one with some questions that I think need to be addressed. I also hope that the club officers are aware that there are some concerns as to how decisions are made and implemented. I also do not want to speak ill of any person but collectively I think we as a club should have had an opportunity for input before all the changes were made. I don't have my Cadillacs judged because I know their flaws and still find great enjoyment with them. I do wish for those that want to have their cars judged the very best and fair judging system that our club can offer. I do agree that there needs to be more incentive for members to become judges but I'm not sure what that is. I think that there have been some good suggestions made by others in this post. Perhaps an opportunity for a survey from the club of all registered judges and interested members.
Quote from: gkhashem on July 11, 2018, 05:26:16 PM
...Also people who enter the cars need to read the manual!!...
...why? I read the manual!!!!...
Jeez, I said I read the manual and was immediately indicted here like a felon...
Quote from: gkhashem on July 11, 2018, 05:26:16 PM
So there is a culture problem here too. Where input was not appreciated nor wanted. I have mentioned this to a few other board people but have been ignored. But as a 3 time winner you would think my opinion might be respected and considered.
Ah! I'm so glad its not just 'me' being told to go sit in the corner! :)
It seems we need more judges? I have an idea, HEY, keep reading -
Imagine more people becoming interested in showing their cars...
That should result in more people becoming interested in the judging process...
Which could result in more people becoming interested in becoming judges...
None of which is going to happen if you're compelled to spend 10's of thousands to be competitive
in the simple 'touring' class.
If there was a class that recognized what the majority of CLC members owned (cruisers), that would be
a step forward in 1) getting new members, 2) getting new members interested in showing, 3) getting new
members interested in showing interested in judging.
Survey the membership, by email, snail mail, heck Survey Monkey. As soon as you determine what type of car is owned by the majority of the membership, you'll know where to spend your time and focus your efforts for growth in showing, judging, membership, club income, etc...
I'll go sit in the corner again...
\m/
Laurie
Laurie
I think your missing the point so I will try to be diplomatic and more exact about what I am saying. Not all opinions are equal. Sorry in today's world we are told to respect all opinions and on and on. But an opinion without any experience attached to it should not bear as much weigh as one born of experience and knowledge. Now with that being said you can have an opinion but is it a well based one?
So in this matter people who give an opinion on CLC judging should gather up the knowledge and combine that with experience before they are all bent on changing the rules.
So I will repeat again what I said before.
You learn the rules by reading the rule book, in this case the CLC Judging Manual. (which is available on the CLC website)
Also you gain experience by attending a CLC GN to see how the manual rules are applied in the real world.
To do one without the other is not a good idea too. I think some who have been to the CLC GN may have not read the rules too. Well if you have done both then present all the ideas you want.
Then your opinion carries more weigh since it is well based in knowledge and experience. Until you gain the knowledge and experience your opinion is not as good until you do. Which is not saying you cannot have an opinion but maybe you should recognize that you could be wrong until you have that knowledge and experience.
Well said George.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 12, 2018, 09:57:22 AM
Well said George.
Eric, I have the feeling you and I aren't going to hang out and get plastered at a GN...
\m/
Laurie
Many have expressed concerns and made accusations in this latest thread on CLC GN Judging that are not completely accurate and some are outright false. I wanted to point out a few things for those non-CLC members and those with what I call selective memory:
First: Chief Judge Bill Anderson posted a periodic Chief Judges Blog on the old Web Site starting at least back in January 2015 (I have 4 in my hand spanning Jan to July 2015). He discussed various changes that were under consideration, changes that were being made and how they were being phased in. It covered the new judging scoring process, the new divisions, the new Judges Recognition Program, the new Judges Training Workshop to provide hands on training. He ended his blogs with the comment: "Your questions and comments about CLC Judging and what the future holds for it are always welcome". I remember sending him a 2 page write-up on some of my concerns and suggestions. He was very receptive to my feedback. I had at that point maybe judged 2 or 3 events. Definitely not a senior judge, but someone with some ideas, and he listened and provided feedback. I remember one of the key points was don't let the cars leave the show field so early as had happened at Lake George. I was happy to later see the "Can't leave before 4pm rule". I know I was just one voice, regarding that concern, but still feel that my voice added to the chorus and made a difference.
Second: There were several articles related to the new Judging process in the Self-Starter. Bill Anderson introduced himself and explained his experience and vision back in 2014 followed by several articles in 2015. For example the March 2015 Self-Starter gave an overview of the Future of CLC Judging", followed by a Preparing for the 2015 GN article in the April 2015 Self-Starter. In these articles he explained this was being phased in over a 2+ year time frame. So it was not thrust on us overnight. There was even a practice run at a regional meet before the 1st GN to use the new process in 2017.
Third: there are general surveys after each GN, and judging surveys sent out after the Grand National's where we can provide feedback on the show field, CLC judging. etc. Not to mention we can all simply call or email Bill.
Fourth: CLC members can volunteer to join committees and become part of the solution. The committees are always looking for new volunteers that can bring new ideas and energy to the table. I remember looking at some of the judging committee members and felt they were in very capable hands. As director of the 63/64 Cadillac Chapter and someone that knows a bit about those 2 year model years, I saw 1st hand some of the work being done by the committee by some of their intense questioning I received on tires, and other judging criteria. They asked, I told them what I knew and they listened. (Go to the tire section on the 2018 Judging Manual for 63/64 Cadillacs... that came from me!)
Finally: Bill Anderson is a no-nonsense get it done type of person. He is not one to sit around chew the fat on coulda, woulda, shoulda type things. So he had an idea in late 2014 on how to improve our judging process based on his many years of experience, brought together a knowledgeable committee, kept us informed via blogs, Self-Starter Articles, surveys and personal contact, and saw the new process implemented 3 years later in summer 2017, and continues to fine tune it here in 2018.
I appreciate the questioning and concerns, but would suggest we all try to do less assuming and more assisting as we try to improve the judging process. Again.. my 2 cents.
This thread seems to be a continuation of the last one that got padlocked :o
From Jason Edge:
Quoteappreciate the questioning and concerns, but would suggest we all try to do less assuming and more assisting as we try to improve the judging process. Again.. my 2 cents.
A well written post -- thank you. I agree with you.
Less griping and complaining and more stepping up
to the plate to assist and work with the Club committees
is needed. That's what people should do if they are
sincerely interested in effecting change.
Mike
Quote from: Cape Cod Fleetwood on July 12, 2018, 10:12:40 AM
Eric, I have the feeling you and I aren't going to hang out and get plastered at a GN...
\m/
Laurie
Laurie
I would be glad to buy you a drink, so until we meet. :)
I support the current system and its continuous improvement. Having judged at the last 8 GN's, the judges have gotten better and will be better as the process grows.
Reading the judging manual and buying an authenticity manual are musts for those that want to compete to win awards. Those that want driver quality cars can participate in display only and have a tremendous amount of fun. I don't have my car judged, at least not yet, but I have the Brougham bar open at GN's using my OE vanity cups placed on the car and offering drinks to anyone that stops by.
I offered suggestions for improvements after each year of judging. This years topic was to kick touring class cars out of Primary before the actual judging starts and have them placed in touring class. No need to spend an hour judging a car that has not had the engine compartment cleaned in 15 years. If the entrant does not care enough to clean the car, why should we spend the time to carefully review it when clearly the owner has no intention of really having a competition car.
Judging is hard work when it is hot and miserable and often, at least for me, I miss the whole show as all my time is devoted to those cars in my judging class.
My 2 cents on this.
David
Laurie, stop by for drink when you see us in the parking lot.
Thank you David, Jason, George, Eric, and others.
At the Milwaukee GN, I judged several cars in primary that had not been cleaned in years, that had non operating features, and whose owners did not know how to operate the controls. And yet, they put these cars into judging in the same group with cars that were senior crown repeat contenders. It was a mystery as to how these owners thought they should be in primary/senior classes, rather than touring or display only.
Clearly, the owners had never read the judging manuals, and had no idea what to expect or how to prepare their cars properly.
That was NOT the fault of the judges or the judging system.
There are judging levels for every car at any GN. But it is the responsibility of the owner to honestly assess his/her vehicle and enter it in the proper category. If not, it is not the fault of the CLC or judging system when they do not achieve the award that they want.
As I said in another thread, don't go to a baseball game and complain that you did not see any touchdowns. You have to put some effort and research into this yourself.
Jim
Quote from: gkhashem on July 12, 2018, 05:30:05 PM
Laurie
I would be glad to buy you a drink, so until we meet. :)
Me too.
IBLT, 'cause this one's heading for the same fate as the last one. :P
Jim & Dave, tell us how you really feel about "dirty cars" I want to know because I got hammered for having a "dirty" engine compartment, when I had to drive through the rain the night before the meet.
George, Mike, David, looking forward to it!
Spiced rum with diet Coke and a cherry, I'm easy...
\m/
Laurie!
Quote from: quadfins on July 12, 2018, 08:31:31 PM
There are judging levels for every car at any GN.
Really? So what class do the folks with cruisers (the majority of the membership, that's a Survey Monkey away) who can't afford the +15K in work compete in outside of 'touring'? Or the numerous folks who are seriously modern hotrodding their Caddy's compete in?
Asking for a friend.
\m/
Laurie
For me, the class depends on the model year, and if the car is a driver, as all of mine are, I can't see them getting any awards, unless there was one for stone chips and those 100 MPH bugs that one can NEVER get off.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: Cape Cod Fleetwood on July 13, 2018, 02:29:30 AM
George, Mike, looking forward to it!
Spiced rum with diet Coke and a cherry, I'm easy...
\m/
Laurie!
Captain & coke? You got it. ;)
Quote from: Cape Cod Fleetwood on July 13, 2018, 02:35:32 AM
Really? So what class do the folks with cruisers (the majority of the membership, that's a Survey Monkey away) who can't afford the +15K in work compete in outside of 'touring'? Or the numerous folks who are seriously modern hotrodding their Caddy's compete in?
Asking for a friend.
\m/
Laurie
Cruisers are touring class
Hotrodded is modified class
A car would have to be extremely rough to not place in touring. I think the first place in touring is like 80 points, so, based on a score of 100 (total score is 400/4 to get your final score), you can take off 80 points from the 400. That's a lot of deductions when you're looking at between 1-5 points per, off the 400. That would be 16 5 point major deductions and you still place first! I don't think there are 15 5 point deductions to be had.
Third place in touring is a score of 60. Basically you could whack off 160 points off your 400 point score and still bring home something. 160 points is a huge margin for deductions.
Actually, I just perused the manual again.
1967 and up, non convertibles, 575 points possible with 610 for convertibles. I now do not know what the score is divided by to get the final score.
I just scored my own car. Non authentic tires and wheels, being honest about condition and authenticity, I came up with approximately 58 points in deductions. I could probably find more, but this is just off the top of my head.
Quote from: V63 on July 11, 2018, 06:27:38 AM
All of this reminds me why I have ZERO interest in the whole judging conundrum. Do we really need it to appreciate our hobby? Look at how crazy the corvette hobby has become with all the numbers. Less is more sometimes!
I agree. IMO would be better to just have everything on display, not judged. Hang out and enjoy the cars rather than worry about competing with each other.
Don't need a trophy or award to know what I do or do not have.
This is similar to the issues dividing the BCA. The BCA has become a "400 Point Judged Show Club". There is a counter insurgency to have cars "parked by year". The issue is the removal of drivers intermingled with trailer queens.
That is the main issue with me. I agree with Eric that judging is necessary and vital but I think the whole "stewardship" and keeping the standard mantra is over played.
Laurie represents the other extreme. Those that want a make's "Super Bowl" and the fun involved with camaraderie and seeing all of the cars we love and enjoy, but can not afford a trailer queen or a blank check restoration.
Those that do amateur restorations can't normally compete with blank check over restoration trailer queens. This emphasis on "pleasing" the trailer queen rich person's crowd will discourage increasing numbers at GN's. 75 cars at San Marcos is the evidence. 164 cars at the Buick National Meet is the evidence when 10-15 years ago (or longer) numbers at National Meets were at least 200 for Cadillac and 400 + for Buicks.
The day competitive judging is eliminated, that will be the end of the CLC.
Nearly every human endeavour has always found ways of promoting and bringing out the best in their respective fields. From art to automobiles to athletics - nothing else has ever accomplished this more effectively than the time honored traditions of competitive spirit. Period.
How would it be if timing of racehorses if timing & placement were eliminated from the Kentucky Derby? Should we just watch a bunch of horses running around the track without regard to any criteria? People who think it all comes down to $5.00 trophies are completely missing the point just as they presumably would feel the same for millions of dollars in horseflesh boil down to a bundle of roses or a medal to the Olympian.
Quote from: Cape Cod Fleetwood on July 13, 2018, 02:35:32 AM
Really? So what class do the folks with cruisers (the majority of the membership, that's a Survey Monkey away) who can't afford the +15K in work compete in outside of 'touring'? Or the numerous folks who are seriously modern hotrodding their Caddy's compete in?
Asking for a friend.
\m/
Laurie
I don't get what is so difficult to understand about this topic. As has been stated before, in this thread and others, and written in the judging manual, there are 4 categories of judging.
Preservation, for predominately original cars
Senior, for those owners who choose to focus on originality
Touring, for those who prefer to focus on driving and don't mind some paint chips and grease, and
Modified, in which there are four subdivisions to accommodate different levels, from mild to radical customs.
Seems like many posters here claim to not care about judging and trophies, but get bent out of shape because a particular car may not qualify for a trophy in a particular category. In such a case, there is always the Display Only category. A car owner should assess the car, and select the most appropriate category. Of course, one can enter in any category, but should not expect to receive a trophy in the car is Mia matched. Just as I would not expect to receive a preservation trophy for my resorted '61, nor would I demand that I win an award for my '66 mustang for judging in the Cadillac club. What do some folks seem to insist that the judging criteria be changed to acccommodate them?
Personally, I don't understand how one persons desire to enter a car for judging should act as a deterrent for another person to bring a car for display only. The fact that judging and trophies occur for some people is no reason to refuse to participate and enjoy the big picture of a grand national. The show, after all, is only one aspect of the entire five day event. And it is possible to enjoy the show and the cars without entering ones own for judging. In fact, the proportion of display only vehicles is pretty high, which shows me that having a car judged is not the main priority for a lot of owners.
As for the changes in the judging criteria, it was because of the inconsistency in the past that the categories and deductions in senior class judging was revised, in order to make it more standardized consistent. Don't forget, too, that judges are required to attend the judging seminar the Friday before the show, which also limits their ability to attend other GN events, such as tours or seminars. The changes were designed to reduce the inconsistencies, not as some conspiracy to exclude anybody.
We all have our priorities. One member I knew, a self-described "trophy ", left the club, never to be seen again, when his car did not win a primary first, despite the fact that it had some major inauthentic components. He expected the judging rules to conform to his desire to win, rather than the judges to uphold the stated standards. Who does that really reflect on?
As for the statement that most club members prefer boulevard cruisers, there is no definitive evidence for the veracity of that contention, nor would a survey monkey inquiry prove it, as the proportion of club members who would answer a digital survey in unknown and unpredictable. All that would prove is how many forum users, or members who are comfortable with online services have an opinion. But there is no way to force all club members to take such a survey to get a complete opinion sample. In fact, what proportion of club members even use this forum? Even a mail in survey, with forms printed in the self starter, would not result in 100% completion, and provide skewed results.
This issue can never be resolved to everybody's satisfaction, so we just do the best we can.
Jim
Excellent post Jim.
Best line here.
Personally, I don't understand how one persons desire to enter a car for judging should act as a deterrent for another person to bring a car for display only.
Jim is very right. Why let 20-40 minutes of judging time ruin an entire event for someone?
The best times I had at the two Grand Nationals I've been to were roaming the parking lots after dark once the spirits were flowing and just chatting with fellow members. We participated in the Hemmings Cruise In driving tour and the Lake George steamboat dinner and had fun. I didn't even fill out the driving tour form to get my driving tour points - wasn't concerned with the points, was more concerned with the experience of it all.
Actually, I didn't even have a car when I went to my first Grand National. I bought it there and entered it in Lake George the following year after doing Hershey with it the fall before.
Even if my 70 was a Senior Crown car, I probably wouldn't bother with judging it, but I'd still bring it and display it. This is coming from someone who had an unrestored primarily original car that pulled a CLC Past President's Preservation award and First Primary at a Grand National and a First Junior and First Senior at Hershey (arguably one of the toughest venues to even place at in the USA) competing against high dollar restorations between 2013 and 2015. I knew the car could do it without issue, but I still spent the week going over in my head is this right, is that right, is that clean enough, did I miss a bug in the radiator I picked up somewhere, did I miss a water spot on the chrome? I couldn't relax.
Now that I have passed the mid-point in life, I want to relax more and worry less. I'm electing to show up, with the car that hopefully I can convince my wife to let us drive there, navigate it into its spot for the week, and kick back, relax, and enjoy my CADILLAC VACATION.
I don't go to McDonalds expecting to dine on the best Filet Mignon in the world. I know what I'm getting when I go in there. Having the car judged is the exact same thing. The rule book is there, you know what the rules of engagement are. If you're expecting to show up with water and somehow turn it into wine while you're there, then yeah, you'll be disappointed, but you knew what the rules of engagement are before you applied.
My comments in this thread were based on observations I made when I participated and how the transition may have possibly been rolled out a little smoother and how to attract more judges for those who choose to go through the process. Not my thing anymore, but there's nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 13, 2018, 10:21:56 AM
Excellent post Jim.
Best line here.
Personally, I don't understand how one persons desire to enter a car for judging should act as a deterrent for another person to bring a car for display only.
Easy, favoritism. In the old days, pre Judging emphasis - clubs were formed so that like minded folks could bring their cars to get togethers - not GN's - but get togethers - for mutual enjoyment and satisfaction. Somewhere along the line, many years later, judging was added, amped up, modified and became the focus of the GN or BCA National.
As baby boomers aged with fat 401k's and pensions and preferring instant gratification over garage clearing restoration work, the trailer queen concept took over. No way even Cadillacs were painted that nice with base coat / clear coat and 6000 grit sandpaper between the 44 coats of paint and gloss paint on the engine or even powder coating etc.
Those cars show up in trailers only to see daylight long enough to win a plastic trophy and then they are loaded up, taken to their temperature controlled garage until another concours or whatever. Eh, OK.
So, favoritism means that the show is biased toward the needs of the car show, not the camaraderie and fun. People who want the focus to be on the car show always say - "hey you can still bring your car and do what you want at the GN." Yes, but those with drivers are asked to move them on "judging day". The events of the banquet are based on the judging results.
As Jim pointed out, the judges training often conflicts with fun events planned that same time. Pick a fun day trip to a museum or event, or sit in a judging training session.
I 100% disagree with Eric's comment about the day judging ends is the day the club dies. Let's put it differently, GN numbers will reflect those few deep pockets of members who want to bring their fresh restorations to be judged by an increasingly less knowledgeable field of judges so they can win a plastic trophy, say 50-75 folks per year. The great majority of Cadillac and old car fans will go to the local cruise ins, show n shines, and small town festival car shows, especially in the more pleasant fall, and bypass the GN and membership in old car clubs.
The clubs focus on it being a car show for high end judging will be the death of the clubs.
Mr Eccelston writes and essentially confirms the trailer queen culture overtaking major car clubs:
As for the changes in the judging criteria, it was because of the inconsistency in the past that the categories and deductions in senior class judging was revised, in order to make it more standardized consistent. Don't forget, too, that judges are required to attend the judging seminar the Friday before the show, which also limits their ability to attend other GN events, such as tours or seminars. The changes were designed to reduce the inconsistencies, not as some conspiracy to exclude anybody.
We all have our priorities. One member I knew, a self-described "trophy ", left the club, never to be seen again, when his car did not win a primary first, despite the fact that it had some major inauthentic components. He expected the judging rules to conform to his desire to win, rather than the judges to uphold the stated standards. Who does that really reflect on?
1st, deduct points for over restoration and let the major blank check restorations shops in the country know this - do not over-restore or your customer may not win his coveted trophy!
2nd, give the guy who drives the car to the GN 10 points or whatever for driving it! Sound unfair or biased? These are CARS and that right there would prove that it is functioning according to it's original PURPOSE.
Exceptions could be made for pre superhighway cars like the teens to the mid 30's.
I am sure Eric will jump all over these statements but Jim perfectly stated the issue - the silver spoon in the mouth idea that if a member who shows up with a trailer queen expects to win a top level award and if not, they are going to cry and whine. They know nothing about the car that they handed over to the shop to restore, and some shops don't do their research either.
Wanting a path toward stewardship and authenticity is a great culture to promote, but the trailer queen culture is NOT the path, it's the death march.
One of the important features of a marque club is the depth of knowledge and expertise which is not normally found in multi-make car clubs. When entries are evaluated by those most knowledgeable with a given make, it adds credibility for having been so recognized which has always been an important factor in car collector circles. For that reason, judging will always go hand-in-hand with most major marque clubs and rightly so. To tamper with one of the most fundamental aspects so central to the mission of the CLC would have disastrous consequences.
As to the rest, the suggestion that high scoring cars are exclusive to the wealthy is pure nonsense. I personally know two relatively new members who both took Senior Crown or Senior Wreaths, both driven to the show hundreds of miles, neither of which represented a total investment over $12K. One of them was even a first-time GN participant!
I for one am thoroughly fed up with the nonsense, half truths and outright ignorance being perpetuated despite countless attempts to enlighten and proofs to the contrary.
So let's cancel the World Cup, Super Bowl, and World Series, too, since only those teams that can afford the best players will win, and the rest of us can't possibly enjoy watching a game with only our local team in contention.
The Trophy Whores That part somehow got cut out of my original post Can determine if they want to participate or not. The rest of us can participate to derive whatever pleasure value in a GN. Don't call it a show, call it a gathering, or convention, that also happens to include a show.
If someone wants to invest a quarter million in a restoration, Let them waste the money to do so. It does not mean that I will enjoy driving and sharing my car any less.
I have not spent anywhere near that much money on my car, but I have invested a great dal of blood, toil, tears and sweat. I have four DeCou awards. Look up what that means. And the car is a senior crown. It can be done, and there need be no resentment when some club members have different priorities.
I just don't Understand the apparent bitterness and invective that is being posted here.
Jim
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on July 13, 2018, 02:00:13 AM
Jim & Dave, tell us how you really feel about "dirty cars" I want to know because I got hammered for having a "dirty" engine compartment, when I had to drive through the rain the night before the meet.
Mike, there is a difference between one days driving in bad weather to a show (which is overlooked) and one that has not be cleaned at all. I was referring to the later.
David
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 13, 2018, 03:02:34 PM
One of the important features of a marque club is the depth of knowledge and expertise which is not normally found in multi-make car clubs. When entries are evaluated by those most knowledgeable with a given make, it adds credibility for having been so recognized which has always been an important factor in car collector circles. For that reason, judging will always go hand-in-hand with most major marque clubs and rightly so. To tamper with one of the most fundamental aspects so central to the mission of the CLC would have disastrous consequences.
I can usually find some truth in most statements. I can't summarize the reason why cars should be judged any better than this statement. I think I have to wonder whether we have enough talent in the judging pool.
Quote from: quadfins on July 13, 2018, 05:58:12 PM
I just don't Understand the apparent bitterness and invective that is being posted here.
Jim
Jim
I apologize if my comments sounded bitter. It's perhaps a limitation of forums in the 1st place. Few people can do all of a cars restoration themselves, I know I can not, but it appears you have done most of yours. I hope you can understand the distinction I was trying to make, but perhaps not. I would love a culture of restoration which existed 25 to 35 years ago.
If you would take a car that was garage restored by a talented person, with correct materials, and single stage paint from 1985, and awarded a high Cadillac GN award,and then stored it away properly, bring it out in 2018, clean it up, show it at San Marcos, it would likely be a low scoring automobile with demerits for quality of (actually correct) paint and trim.
Possible members, actual members with drivers are getting demoralized by the TQ's, and staying away - from GN's, from club involvement and deciding on restorations.
Some judging teams are better than others that's just a fact of life. The authenticity manual project was an important step in the effort to help reduce some of judging irregularities & errors that can unfortunately occur.
Maybe try and get an early start on judge training. When registrations for the GN are received and there is a checkmark indicating that the registrant wants to judge, then send them a copy of the supporting manuals (authenticity, etc) (I am more familiar with Buicks)
If there is an opportunity to select years of interest, then further add to their knowledge by having the authenticity expert or technical expert for that year/era reach out to the prospective judge.
Don't have judges training at the GN during popular tours and shows.
That should increase the enthusiasm, knowledge, willingness and eventually experience of the judging pool.
As well as the Class Expert designation for anyone who chooses to learn about and display knowledge of particular judging classes. Last year, in DC, two of us were so recognized. I don't know if any were at San Marcos, or how many there are overall. But the point here is that a person must take the time and effort to voluntarily become an "expert". Until there are enough to go around, for every class, judging in the senior classes can never be the exact science that some seem to demand.
And, not every car is a 100 point concourse perfection. So we can't expect every car to be recognized as such. So what? If a car has gigs, and is considered to be a senior, or wreath, be satisfied with that, and work to improve. If it needs a lot of work, accept the reality, and either put it in a more appropriate class, or just display it, jaw with the spectators, and enjoy the event without any judging pressure. People will still talk to you and appreciate your car.
I drove my 61 over 1000 miles from Virginia to Wisconsin. The day before the show, I tested my washers. The morning of the show, I tested them again. They worked fine both times. During the judging, they would not spit a drop. Later that afternoon I discovered some amoeba like mass living I n the reservoir jar. I had not noticed it before, and my testing sucked it into the pump and lines and clogged them. The points I lost for inoperative washers meant that the car did not score high enough for a repeat Crown. Yes, I was disappointed, but clogs happen, and I learned from it. Still enjoyed the event.
The cubs don't win the World Series every year, either.
Just gotta accept that fact.
Jim
Quote from: BJM on July 13, 2018, 07:11:58 PM
Maybe try and get an early start on judge training. When registrations for the GN are received and there is a checkmark indicating that the registrant wants to judge, then send them a copy of the supporting manuals (authenticity, etc) (I am more familiar with Buicks)
Bryan, Which class are you volunteering for? We need dedicated people.
Quote from: INTMD8 on July 13, 2018, 08:37:55 AM
I agree. IMO would be better to just have everything on display, not judged. Hang out and enjoy the cars rather than worry about competing with each other.
Don't need a trophy or award to know what I do or do not have.
Excellent statement ;).....
Bobby
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on July 13, 2018, 07:34:35 AM
Cruisers are touring class
Oh Dan, I know that!
Your 70 ragtop and my 70 "Ark" are both 'cruisers'.
My car can't park in the same town as your car, your car is so spectacular.
And I don't want to/can't afford to spend 10's of thousands to make my car
competitive in the 'touring' class. Using the dreaded judging manual I counted
The Ark down 168 points (I think) just sitting in its lair.
And I *LOVE* my car, just the way it is, its my pride and joy.
I can't be alone with my car, my feelings, or my budget in the general membership.
"cruiser class" - watch how easy I can make this:
Put the judging materials/manuals/rules under a beer cooler and leave them there.
Let the judges simply look the car over, start it, whatever.
Then just score it on a scale from 1 - 10. Purely objective vs subjective.
You love it or your hate it. How long would the entire process take? Less than 5 minutes?
And you could make the winner's trophy a $4 plaque so the preservation class doesn't feel jilted.
Back to my corner...
Could you bring a rum'n coke to my corner Eric? Thanks... ;D
\m/
Laurie
Quote from: Cape Cod Fleetwood on July 14, 2018, 12:46:55 AM
And I don't want to/can't afford to spend 10's of thousands to make my car
competitive in the 'touring' class. Using the dreaded judging manual I counted
The Ark down 168 points (I think) just sitting in its lair.
Well, I hate to spill the beans but your car is already competitive. If indeed you have 168 points in deductions, you have earned a 2nd place finish just by showing up. But these comments regarding not wanting to spend money to improve your "cruiser" has me scratching my head as I sure thought I had read numerous posts from you regarding restoring and making improvements to your Cadillac. In fact if you go back and read through your numerous posts, you will see that many jumped in and offered advice in a very polite and courteous manner. Their genuine and sincere enthusiasm to help a newer forum and new CLC member was a nice reminder of one of the positive aspects of our club and these forums.
I think like most people here, I try to jump in and try to provide input when I am knowledgeable about a subject and have something to bring to the table. For example, I have generally not replied on your numerous restoration posts regarding your 1970 Cadillac, as I really am way out of my league when it comes to that model year. I know it is a fine vehicle and try to learn more about it when I see your posts and all the in depth responses.
Now to the point of this reply. I am very much offended by statements like the one quoted below. Regardless of whether or not you agree with our judging process and manual ... it is our club's judging process and would put it up against any other car club's judging process you will find out there.
Statements to put our manual under a beer cooler and judge from 1 to 10 in 5 minutes is not only juvenile, it is extremely insensitive to the many CLC members that have worked countless hours to create the manual and implement the process; it is insensitive to the judges that go through the training, study the manual, go to the seminars, go to the workshops and stand out in the heat all day and judge; and it is insensitive to the owners that bring their Cadillacs and LaSalles out to the GN's to show off their hard work and learn about their Cadillacs. I find it defamatory toward the CLC and basically uninformed, especially coming from someone that has apparently never been to a Grand National and had their car judged or served as a judge.
My advice would be to read and learn. Attend a Grand National and experience the process first hand. Approach everything with a positive attitude. Lose the confrontational tone, as it will get you no where. It is admirable that you want to jump in and offer input, however, consider that you have basically zero experience on CLC GN judging.
I would love to see you and your 1970 in Louisville and hope you find as much enjoyment in being a Cadillac & LaSalle Club member as I have over the years. We are like a family and we are very open and inviting to new members as witnessed by those eager to offer advice on your numerous posts here on the forums. However, you need to consider the insensitivity and defamatory nature of comments like the one below, which is an insult to the many CLC members that have worked so hard to get our judging process to the point it is now. No, it is not perfect, but it is a work in progress and hope you and others will help us all to continue to improve it.
Quote from: Cape Cod Fleetwood on July 14, 2018, 12:46:55 AM
"cruiser class" - watch how easy I can make this:
Put the judging materials/manuals/rules under a beer cooler and leave them there.
Let the judges simply look the car over, start it, whatever.
Then just score it on a scale from 1 - 10. Purely objective vs subjective.
You love it or your hate it. How long would the entire process take? Less than 5 minutes?
And you could make the winner's trophy a $4 plaque so the preservation class doesn't feel jilted.
Back to my corner...
Could you bring a rum'n coke to my corner Eric? Thanks... ;D
Laurie
Quote from: Jason Edge on July 14, 2018, 04:42:29 AM
Well, I hate to spill the beans but your car is already competitive. If indeed you have 168 points in deductions, you have earned a 2nd place finish just by showing up. But these comments regarding not wanting to spend money to improve your "cruiser" has me scratching my head as I sure thought I had read numerous posts from you regarding restoring and making improvements to your Cadillac. In fact if you go back and read through your numerous posts, you will see that many jumped in and offered advice in a very polite and courteous manner. Their genuine and sincere enthusiasm to help a newer forum and new CLC member was a nice reminder of one of the positive aspects of our club and these forums.
I think like most people here, I try to jump in and try to provide input when I am knowledgeable about a subject and have something to bring to the table. For example, I have generally not replied on your numerous restoration posts regarding your 1970 Cadillac, as I really am way out of my league when it comes to that model year. I know it is a fine vehicle and try to learn more about it when I see your posts and all the in depth responses.
Now to the point of this reply. I am very much offended by statements like the one quoted below. Regardless of whether or not you agree with our judging process and manual ... it is our club's judging process and would put it up against any other car club's judging process you will find out there.
Statements to put our manual under a beer cooler and judge from 1 to 10 in 5 minutes is not only juvenile, it is extremely insensitive to the many CLC members that have worked countless hours to create the manual and implement the process; it is insensitive to the judges that go through the training, study the manual, go to the seminars, go to the workshops and stand out in the heat all day and judge; and it is insensitive to the owners that bring their Cadillacs and LaSalles out to the GN's to show off their hard work and learn about their Cadillacs. I find it defamatory toward the CLC and basically uninformed, especially coming from someone that has apparently never been to a Grand National and had their car judged or served as a judge.
My advice would be to read and learn. Attend a Grand National and experience the process first hand. Approach everything with a positive attitude. Lose the confrontational tone, as it will get you no where. It is admirable that you want to jump in and offer input, however, consider that you have basically zero experience on CLC GN judging.
I would love to see you and your 1970 in Louisville and hope you find as much enjoyment in being a Cadillac & LaSalle Club members as I have over the years. We are like a family and we are very open and inviting to new members as witnessed by those eager to offer advice on your numerous posts here on the forums. However, you need to consider the insensitivity and defamatory nature of comments like the one below, which is an insult to the many CLC members that have worked so hard to get our judging process to point it is now. No, it is not perfect, but it is a work in progress and hope you and others will help us all to continue to improve it.
Hi Jason, fair enough!
The folks on this forum took this newbie chick under your collective wings and continue to show me the way with this car, I'm forever grateful now and going forward. I love you all and appreciate you all.
My 'restoration' is limited to doing what's in the best interest of saving the car. The roof is a disaster, its being replaced this winter. It needs to be painted, and will be painted its 'correct' color. That's next winter as the roof job is going to be telephone numbers.
Please re-read my post - what I said about judging and tossing the manuals refers solely to the mythical "cruiser" class, not the classes that are recognized now.
The above is just an idea, not an indictment, to encourage more members to bring out their cars to events, to become members of the CLC, and hopefully fuel an interest in judging and possibly harvest future judges.
Nothing but love for ya.
\m/
Laurie
Quote from: David King (kz78hy) on July 13, 2018, 08:18:00 PM
Bryan, Which class are you volunteering for? We need dedicated people.
David:
I would be willing to be a judge in a class that needs the most help. I don't have a background in judging Cadillacs, only Buicks. I have been a BCA National meet judge 3 times. What I did not like, was that I was asked to judge in different classes each time. The head judge knew I was and am a generalist and know a fair amount about Buicks from the 30's to modern era.
I also recall that entered cars reflected membership interest statistics. By that I mean, there seemed to be a lot of 50's Buicks, followed by the 60's. As with most clubs, we were seeing waning numbers of pre war cars.
If that trend is the same for Cadillac, then I should be a judge for the 50's and 60's but unlike my Buick experience, I need to focus on a class and stick with it. If I come to Tennessee to judge, I have about 11 months and have a whole lot of studying to do.
But the short answer to your question is 50's and 60's, and I do not know class divisions in the CLC.
I am ready to go, what do I do next?
When I first made up the classes, I did the logical thing. I went from 1902 to (I think) 1926. Then 1927-1933. 1934 is where the "modern era" cars started and I think to 1936. Then by body shells from then on, taking into consideration LaSalle and the multi-cylinder cars. From about 1980, I'd have to have the chart. I found my original scratch paper a few weeks ago and didn't feel like hunting it up. (As in: 1937-38; 1939-40, 1941, 1942-47, 1948-49, 1950-53, 1954-56, 1957-58; 1959-60, 1961-64, 1965-66, 1967-1970, etc, etc.) My recollection of the early years may be incorrect. I also took out the Broughams, and Eldorado/Sevilles here and there and put them in their own classes. I hope this helps you a little.
Quote from: BJM on July 14, 2018, 12:11:04 PM
But the short answer to your question is 50's and 60's, and I do not know class divisions in the CLC.
I am ready to go, what do I do next?
That is great Bryan. You chose what interests you. click on the home page of this site and go the technical area and look at the judging categories. A talk with Bill Anderson will help if you flip a coin as to the years, but really, go with what you are interested in and Bill will attempt to accommodate. The biggest step is to volunteer at the next national judged meet you can, and attend any pre training offered. It all just helps.
Buick's and Cadillac's are not that much different in the overall scheme of things. Don't let yourself get hung up on becoming an instant authenticity expert, that can come with time and judging experience and rely on the team captain as that is the role that person is supposed to play.
Bill's standard explanation is "you all know what a new car looks like, base your deductions compared to that standard". I am paraphrasing here, but that is the point. Our standards are published, but basically the car should be as it was delivered to the dealer from the factory. NO DEALER ADD ONS, unless they are factory approved dealer installed options and those are approved to be as OE condition.
Comparing against new is a pretty easy thing to assess, check the sanctioned deductions sheet for things that don't look like new and you are 97% of the way to providing a very good and fair assessment of the owners car.
The judging teams I've been associated with really care about being fair and CONSISTENT with the group of cars we do each year. The good news is the judges are becoming better, but like all volunteer organizations, we are at the mercy of those who raise their hands and accept the challenge.
We are volunteers, and we will miss stuff, that benefits the owner in almost every occurrence.
It can be hard work and under appreciated, but it is at our core, the reason the club exists...
David
"Reading the judging manual and buying an authenticity manual are musts for those that want to compete to win awards."
I agree with David King. One problem, as you know, is that the '59's have no authenticity manual. By my count of the current International Directory, '59's represent the 3rd most popular year of Cadillac (by number owned) in our club - 452. Those numbers are surpassed only by 76's - 500, and '41's - 503. It amazes me that we have been asking, no - begging for a '59 authenticity manual for as long as I can recall, and still do not have one. I would think that the number of '59's alone should make this a priority.
Begging for an Authenticity manual does not get one
written.
Volunteering to help write one does!
I suggest that you and other like minded members
contact Bill Anderson and offer to start the process.
Since you counted over 400 1959 owners (!) it should
be no problem to get, say, 6 members to volunteer.
I know that Bill would welcome any help in this area.
Mike
Believe it or not, folks. THAT is how it is done. Not whining, not complaining that no one ever does anything right. But sitting down at your phone and calling the guys (and gals) that you know from seeing on the Forum that have the best, and most original 1959 Cadillacs around. Work it out so that one person works on the body. One under the hood. Another takes on the interior. Still another works on the trunk. And don't forget the tires and wheels.
You might have to get a manual in the years before, and the one just after, to see how they're laid out. Maybe Bill will loan you one or two to get started and "see how others have done it."
You even have some guidance about starting a book. Remember, it's really simple...
"It was a dark and stormy night. Suddenly a shot rang out. A pirate ship appeared over the horizon..." If a beagle from the comics can write a best seller, so can you. Best of luck.
There is a genuine need. And unless someone takes that first little step, it's never going to get done.
OK, cannot resist throwing in my three cents:
1. You can never make everyone happy no matter what the rules are.
2. Have to agree with Greg S. back on early comments, this paying tens of thousands of dollars for cosmetics and etc. associated with this hobby and then complaining about a $25 display or whatever fee is silly.
3. Yes, agree with several posters, a free something such a award dinner, breakfast, t-shirt or whatever of this magnitude is of no consideration on how I plan to spend my time at GN, judging volunteering or etc. GN is to enjoy not work several hours to earn a low value free thing. The volunteering can be enjoyable, and I do not do it for the the free thing.
4. To the people that don't agree with judging for whatever reason, easy just don't do it. That is what I do. Not a fan of the judging rules, and the club is generous enough to allow me to participate in the car show anyway - including parking a show car on the field for display only.
5. Agree the biggest problem is inconsistency of judging. Example: One group of judges may not take off points when they should for minor surface rust on a 1966 frame (they like original, not restored), while another group will on a 1968 (they like a restored car)and that is the difference between a first place and maybe higher award (the 1968 will get a lower award than the 1966, when they are similar/equal).
To first time GN people, bring a car and don't make it taxing, such as enter for touring or display only. Then some feedback would be great. I have been to more than half a dozen GN's.
Can't wait for GN 2019!
The Captain is the most important person on a judging team. I have judged a in the past and will probably do it again in the future if invited.
On one hand judging is an honor and on the other they do not get to enjoy the most important day of a Grand National or a Fall Festival. We try to do the best job we can but can not make everyone happy. We are human and make human mistakes and omissions. Our significant others are abandoned. I am glad that only two LaSalles were judged at the G N especially considering the heat and we also got to spend some time to enjoy the G N.
My take on this thread is this:
Get actively involved to change or better the club or enjoy the club as is.
;)
My time restrictions suggest I'll be enjoying the club as is. I'm glad the club is here to assist with keeping these cars on the road, otherwise, I prolly wouldn't own a Cadillac.
I'm volunteering to be a 'cruiser class' and 'super modified class' judge.
As soon as I know what I'm talking about.
Can I get that rum'n coke delivered to my corner Eric?
\m/
Laurie
Quote from: quadfins on July 13, 2018, 10:19:27 AM
Quote from: Cape Cod Fleetwood on July 13, 2018, 02:35:32 AM
Really? So what class do the folks with cruisers (the majority of the membership, that's a Survey Monkey away) who can't afford the +15K in work compete in outside of 'touring'? Or the numerous folks who are seriously modern hotrodding their Caddy's compete in?
Asking for a friend.
\m/
Laurie
I don't get what is so difficult to understand about this topic. As has been stated before, in this thread and others, and written in the judging manual, there are 4 categories of judging.
Preservation, for predominately original cars
Senior, for those owners who choose to focus on originality
Touring, for those who prefer to focus on driving and don't mind some paint chips and grease, and
Modified, in which there are four subdivisions to accommodate different levels, from mild to radical customs.
Seems like many posters here claim to not care about judging and trophies, but get bent out of shape because a particular car may not qualify for a trophy in a particular category. In such a case, there is always the Display Only category. A car owner should assess the car, and select the most appropriate category. Of course, one can enter in any category, but should not expect to receive a trophy in the car is Mia matched. Just as I would not expect to receive a preservation trophy for my resorted '61, nor would I demand that I win an award for my '66 mustang for judging in the Cadillac club. What do some folks seem to insist that the judging criteria be changed to acccommodate them?
Personally, I don't understand how one persons desire to enter a car for judging should act as a deterrent for another person to bring a car for display only. The fact that judging and trophies occur for some people is no reason to refuse to participate and enjoy the big picture of a grand national. The show, after all, is only one aspect of the entire five day event. And it is possible to enjoy the show and the cars without entering ones own for judging. In fact, the proportion of display only vehicles is pretty high, which shows me that having a car judged is not the main priority for a lot of owners.
As for the changes in the judging criteria, it was because of the inconsistency in the past that the categories and deductions in senior class judging was revised, in order to make it more standardized consistent. Don't forget, too, that judges are required to attend the judging seminar the Friday before the show, which also limits their ability to attend other GN events, such as tours or seminars. The changes were designed to reduce the inconsistencies, not as some conspiracy to exclude anybody.
We all have our priorities. One member I knew, a self-described "trophy ", left the club, never to be seen again, when his car did not win a primary first, despite the fact that it had some major inauthentic components. He expected the judging rules to conform to his desire to win, rather than the judges to uphold the stated standards. Who does that really reflect on?
As for the statement that most club members prefer boulevard cruisers, there is no definitive evidence for the veracity of that contention, nor would a survey monkey inquiry prove it, as the proportion of club members who would answer a digital survey in unknown and unpredictable. All that would prove is how many forum users, or members who are comfortable with online services have an opinion. But there is no way to force all club members to take such a survey to get a complete opinion sample. In fact, what proportion of club members even use this forum? Even a mail in survey, with forms printed in the self starter, would not result in 100% completion, and provide skewed results.
This issue can never be resolved to everybody's satisfaction, so we just do the best we can.
Jim
Jim, you should edit this post. It looks like you are attributing the entire post to Laurie, when you wrote the bottom 5/6ths.
Quote from: quadfins on July 13, 2018, 05:58:12 PM
So let's cancel the World Cup, Super Bowl, and World Series, too, since only those teams that can afford the best players will win, and the rest of us can't possibly enjoy watching a game with only our local team in contention.
The Trophy Whores That part somehow got cut out of my original post Can determine if they want to participate or not. The rest of us can participate to derive whatever pleasure value in a GN. Don't call it a show, call it a gathering, or convention, that also happens to include a show.
If someone wants to invest a quarter million in a restoration, Let them waste the money to do so. It does not mean that I will enjoy driving and sharing my car any less.
I have not spent anywhere near that much money on my car, but I have invested a great dal of blood, toil, tears and sweat. I have four DeCou awards. Look up what that means. And the car is a senior crown. It can be done, and there need be no resentment when some club members have different priorities.
I just don't Understand the apparent bitterness and invective that is being posted here.
Jim
The logic behind the decou award is flawed. You are eligible for driving to at least 2 GNs that are at least 1,000 miles apart.
Apart from what? Each other?
What about the distance from where one started to where the GN is? Using the form's logic me driving to Wisconsin and to Detroit, which are only a couple hundred miles apart would NOT qualify me, even though the distance from me to either of those locations is over 1,000 miles one way.
So it's meaningless to me.
A proper way to qualify the eligibility would be to have driven to at least 2 GNs where the round cumulative trip distance exceeds 2,000 miles.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 13, 2018, 10:14:28 AM
The day competitive judging is eliminated, that will be the end of the CLC.
Nearly every human endeavour has always found ways of promoting and bringing out the best in their respective fields. From art to automobiles to athletics - nothing else has ever accomplished this more effectively than the time honored traditions of competitive spirit. Period.
How would it be if timing of racehorses if timing & placement were eliminated from the Kentucky Derby? Should we just watch a bunch of horses running around the track without regard to any criteria? People who think it all comes down to $5.00 trophies are completely missing the point just as they presumably would feel the same for millions of dollars in horseflesh boil down to a bundle of roses or a medal to the Olympian.
The English major in me cannot determine what this non-sentence is supposed to state.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 13, 2018, 03:02:34 PM
One of the important features of a marque club is the depth of knowledge and expertise which is not normally found in multi-make car clubs. When entries are evaluated by those most knowledgeable with a given make, it adds credibility for having been so recognized which has always been an important factor in car collector circles. For that reason, judging will always go hand-in-hand with most major marque clubs and rightly so. To tamper with one of the most fundamental aspects so central to the mission of the CLC would have disastrous consequences.
As to the rest, the suggestion that high scoring cars are exclusive to the wealthy is pure nonsense. I personally know two relatively new members who both took Senior Crown or Senior Wreaths, both driven to the show hundreds of miles, neither of which represented a total investment over $12K. One of them was even a first-time GN participant!
I for one am thoroughly fed up with the nonsense, half truths and outright ignorance being perpetuated despite countless attempts to enlighten and proofs to the contrary.
Eric, at least state the year & model of thee cars, because there's NO WAY a 60s or 70s convertible will win such an award at that level of total investment cost.
Mike, my lack of technological skills leave me unable to edit the post. You can see that I attempted to do so July 13, but failed.
Feel free to help, if you can. I have not yet mastered the art of being able to quote and then reply.
You also make a good point about the DeCou award. the guidelines are what they are, for now, but it is possible to Petition for a change. My point is that it is possible to drive a car and maintain it in condition that enables it to qualify for awards.
Jim
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on July 16, 2018, 12:51:51 AM
Eric, at least state the year & model of thee cars, because there's NO WAY a 60s or 70s convertible will win such an award at that level of total investment cost.
No, they weren't '60s or '70s Convertibles...nor, for that matter, were they '59 EBZs, '57 Eldo Broughams or '31 V-16s either...
What does that have to do with the fact GN-winning material is available to even those of modest means - provided they set their sights accordingly.
There are many cars I'd love to own - but don't - because they're in a league that I cannot afford to participate in.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on July 16, 2018, 12:42:59 AM
The English major in me cannot determine what this non-sentence is supposed to state.
"How would it be if timing & placement were eliminated from the Kentucky Derby?"
Apologies for not better previewing my post before submitting.
Quote from: quadfins on July 16, 2018, 08:43:54 AM
Mike, my lack of technological skills leave me unable to edit the post. You can see that I attempted to do so July 13, but failed.
Feel free to help, if you can. I have not yet mastered the art of being able to quote and then reply.
You also make a good point about the DeCou award. the guidelines are what they are, for now, but it is possible to Petition for a change. My point is that it is possible to drive a car and maintain it in condition that enables it to qualify for awards.
Jim
Jim, since you are only quoting one person, it's not too hard.
Modify your post.
You should notice at the top a [quote followed by who wrote it bla bla bla ending with a ]
Then there should be Laurie's quoted text.
What's missing, or perhaps you have it AFTER your reply should be a
[/quote]
If you see this at the bottom, which is where I think it is, just delete that one and put one just below Laurie's text and above your reply.
In the future when replying, just make sure to put your reply AFTER the [/quote]
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 16, 2018, 09:11:29 AM
No, they weren't '60s or '70s Convertibles...nor, for that matter, were they '59 EBZs, '57 Eldo Broughams or '31 V-16s either...
What does that have to do with the fact GN-winning material is available to even those of modest means - provided they set their sights accordingly.
There are many cars I'd love to own - but don't - because they're in a league that I cannot afford to participate in.
Because you are most likely referring to 80s or 90s cars that can be found with very low miles, pristine paint and interiors,
and no 50+ year old rubber that disintegrates on touch. I have a 100,000+ miles Fleetwood Brougham that you would swear that nobody even sat in except for the drivers seat. Even that seat's leather is fine, but the carpet never lies. Just a water pump changed and that is with an original Delco. The only thing that shows is the engine compartment. No way to hide 100,000 miles, but I do keep it as clean as possible. That car fits the cost criteria that you mentioned.
The point being...????
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on July 16, 2018, 10:52:57 AM
The point being...????
Think about it awhile, you should get it, eventually.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on July 16, 2018, 10:56:56 AM
Think about it awhile, you should get it, eventually.
I'm afraid you'll have to explain yourself better. I merely pointed out there are GN award-winning cars to be had within nearly any budget.
Most of the respondents on this thread have or are referring to 45-65 year old cars (1955 or so to 1976). You cannot get one of those open or closed body for under $12,000 total investment and have it win a senior at the first GN.
It's possible with a mid-late 80s thru late 90s, but NOT with the older years I referenced.
So what are the two new senior cars' model years? I'm guessing 88-98 (and no not Olds 88-98s).
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on July 16, 2018, 11:11:12 AM
Most of the respondents on this thread have or are referring to 45-65 year old cars (1955 or so to 1976). You cannot get one of those open or closed body for under $12,000 total investment and have it win a senior at the first GN.
It's possible with a mid-late 80s thru late 90s, but NOT with the older years I referenced.
So what are the two new senior cars' model years? I'm guessing 88-98 (and no not Olds 88-98s).
'78 & '79 Coupe deVilles.
So what are you saying? It costs more to have a 1965 Convertible that wins top awards at a GN than a '79 Coupe deVille? Yes it most certainly does on average. And a 1930 V16 is even more still.
I still have no idea what point you're trying to make.
Mike my 64 Eldo 1st place Vegas GN Investment so far under 20k My 1963 Fleetwood driven to Vegas 2016 3rd place touring, Under 5k invested , under the current scoring system the Fleetwood scored high enough and would of received a 1st place.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on July 16, 2018, 12:41:36 AMThe logic behind the decou award is flawed. You are eligible for driving to at least 2 GNs that are at least 1,000 miles apart. Apart from what? Each other?
What about the distance from where one started to where the GN is? Using the form's logic me driving to Wisconsin and to Detroit, which are only a couple hundred miles apart would NOT qualify me, even though the distance from me to either of those locations is over 1,000 miles one way. So it's meaningless to me. A proper way to qualify the eligibility would be to have driven to at least 2 GNs where the round cumulative trip distance exceeds 2,000 miles.
Mike, As you wrote, the DeCou award is for having driven to 2 GNs that are the most distance apart from each other. However, at each GN there is also a separate award for "Vehicle Long Distance" for whoever drove the longest distance to that particular GN.
I have won both awards, one each at different GNs, but except for those 2 there was always some guy who drove a bit further to the 18 GNs I have driven to. I think your suggestion would be a good one for an additional driving award. (There is also an award for whoever traveled the longest distance to the GN, almost always won by someone from Australia or New Zealand.)
On judging again, if it is unsatisfactory the CLC let's you opt out and participate in the show as display only, and that is what I do. Why is there such strong disagreement?
Marty, your Cadillacs are awesome. However, seriously suggesting an award winning 1964 Eldorado and an award winning 1963 Fleetwood is an under 25k investment as justification that this is affordable is not accurate. You are very fortunate to own these two award winning Cadillacs for such low cost and I'm happy for you. They are worth more than that amount of money.
Yes certainly late model Cadillacs are easier to win awards with, but they are not as fun to me. Rather have a 1970's or older Cadillac that drives well and looks reasonably presentable than a newer say 1980's Cadillac in pristine condition. Although I really like the 1994-96 Fleetwoods a lot and may buy one again.
Again, everyone is never going to be happy with judging, so even the rules are changed, the number of satisfied people may be offset by the number of unhappy people. The notion of more classes just adds to judging (shortage of judges now), and we have so few cars attend anyway, why bother. The concern for lack of Cadillacs and LaSalles attending GN to me is more important than changing judging rules.
Agree, I would not judge at GN because then you miss the whole show. Thanks to all the judges that do work a somewhat thankless job on Saturday.
Suffice to say Marty would probably not part with either car for cost in today's market. That is beside the point.
At issue is the contention that GN award-winning Cadillacs are beyond those of modest means which is simply untrue.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on July 16, 2018, 02:25:36 PM
Agree, I would not judge at GN because then you miss the whole show. Thanks to all the judges that do work a somewhat thankless job on Saturday.
Maybe I am in the minority here but I enjoy judging. I enjoy the deep dive into the Cadillacs that I specialize in and I always learn something and my take away from the experience is very positive. I could counter the above statement and say that if I were not judging, and just strolling the show field and ooh-ing and aah-ing over the cars, I would miss out on the opportunity to really study these particular cars at that detailed level.
When you take a car with a judging sheet with 100+ categories in your hand, you will pick up on dozens of unique features and things about the car that you will never ever see just casually strolling around "checking out the cars". Yes, we spend a couple hours on Friday at the seminar; and I took the time to read the judging manual cover to cover prior, not once but twice; and yes we spend over half a day on a hot show field putting our knowledge and skills to the ultimate test, but I enjoy it plain and simple and is part of my GN experience. So, call me the odd ball but I enjoy it.
I love this club. We can start talking about one subject and end up going in twenty five different directions with our discussion. I think that we all attend a judged event for a different reason from that which would find us attending a cruise-in. Nothing wrong with either event, just different ground rules. I just think that we need to rethink some our thoughts on judging and judging classes. The differences in judging a Touring class car and a Senior class car are monumental. A 100 point check list may not be enough for a Senior car but is probably quite excessive for a Touring car. Yes my friend Jason, you are an odd ball enjoying you 100+ categories. (We really are friends, honest). Spending close to an hour on a car, unless it is a possible best of show contender, means that you are judging all day long. As the majority of our events are in the summer, excessive heat really becomes a factor, especially with our older members. We do however want to provide the best judged event possible where the awards actually represent the car honestly as shown on the field. I hope more of our club will become involved in judging and take advantage of the excellent authenticity manuals and judging guide available through the club. As with all aspects of our club, judging guidelines should be a work in progress.
I need to put my 2 cents in. I had big issues with this years Judging. I have spoke to Mr. Anderson about it. We came to an understanding, and hopefully that the outcome will be different next year. Other than that, I have enjoined every Grand National that I my wife and I have been to. Thank you!