What should I do? Involves another CLC member.

[Quentin Hall]

G'day Bill, It's another beautiful rainy day in Brisbane but the sun may just punch through yet.
                I tried to pull up the ebay ad from Dec 23 and it won't cos it's too old so I couldn't read the actual ad, however  I could see it in the list if you paid around the price that is listed on the ad then I think you did quite well , regardless of the "misrepresented engine"problems.
                 Once again I reiterate that when a car like this is nearly 60 years old then things got swapped and changed and lost. That is why a powderpuff low mile all original 58 Biarritz is well into six figures.
                  I am not siding with the seller, as it is apparent that you feel he misrepresented the car saying it had matching numbers. However, I will say though that if you got the car for around the figure that I can see off ebays completed listing guide then you got a vehicle at a price where there is room to move to make repairs and amendments. At the end of the day that really is what the "hobby" is.  You find a car that you like and then throw shitloads of money at it until you love it. (that's a joke but probably as close to the truth as you will ever get). 
                  If you have the tripower on the car ( the trickiest engine part to locate) I would take a big deep breath and rise above it.  You will be hard pressed to find a 58 Biarritz in that price bracket without some flaw that needs rectification. 
                  As a newbie you at least had the horse-sense to pick a very desirable model.
                  Q         

[cadillacmike68]

How did you guys find a completed listing in December?? Usually searches only go back 60 days

How much are we talking about here anyway?

[76eldo]

The threat of legal action sometimes moves people to do the right thing or at least make a gesture.
I agree that it's cumbersome but I'd spend a few bucks to have an auto fraud specialist look the situation over.

I'd want something from the seller if it was me.

Brian

[Chris Conklin]

Wow, this is a tough one. Probably the biggest problem is one of caveat emptor, it was purchased sight unseen. But I agree with Brian, you should get something from the seller to make it right. Even if it was a bargain, you should get a percentage of the vehicle's cost.

The seller may have mistakenly stated it was "numbers matching" or may have had malicious intent. I don't think it matters. If a seller is going to state something that is critical to selling the car the seller needs to be sure it's true. Ignorance is not a defense (unfortunately, for either party). In the words of "Uncle Ron", trust... but verify.

[Hayden P]

I recently utilised the services of Bruce Shaw. He is indeed quite passionate about automotive fraud and was VERY helpful to me. I had an issue with a dealer in St.Louis and I am in Australia. If you do contact him, mention you came across him through the CLC and had indeed been recommended by Australian CLC member Hayden.

Good luck.

[Louis Smith]

I would like to interject the phrase "When life gives you lemons, (pun intended), make lemonade"

Few quick questions, that might bring you back to the road of recovery for your health.

-What was your purpose in obtaining this car?  Pleasure or did you want to have a, and I am asking this with all due respect, Trailer Queen, and collect trophies?

-Assuming the vehicle was purchased for the pure pleasure of owning and driving a classic Cadillac and an example of one of Cadillacs better offerings of the era.  I would add up the total expenditure of what it would cost you to get the car to the level it best suit you.  If it is a total you can live with, then get it restored, and put this experience behind you.

I think it goes without saying, that in restoring process, when you are acquiring parts, be doubly sure you are getting and PAYING for what you need.  Don't rush into any purchases.  Remember "Act in haste, repent in leisure"

Best of luck to you, and keep us updated on what progress you are making.  I can guarantee you, you will get great information, on reputable and not so reputable vendors.

[STDog]

How did you guys find a completed listing in December?? Usually searches only go back 60 days

Normally it's there for 90 days, which would get you back to Dec 6. I found it a few weeks ago, but the listing is no longer there (nor are the 2 prior listings) though it should be as it didn't end until late Dec.

[STDog]

Wow, this is a tough one. Probably the biggest problem is one of caveat emptor, it was purchased sight unseen. But I agree with Brian, you should get something from the seller to make it right. Even if it was a bargain, you should get a percentage of the vehicle's cost.

The seller may have mistakenly stated it was "numbers matching" or may have had malicious intent. I don't think it matters. If a seller is going to state something that is critical to selling the car the seller needs to be sure it's true. Ignorance is not a defense (unfortunately, for either party). In the words of "Uncle Ron", trust... but verify.

In this case I agree, it's tough. The seller clearly stated "The engine number and frame all match." At the same time the photos don't show the oil filter where it should be. (the photo links still work...)

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA2NFgxNjAw/$T2eC16NHJGQE9noMZGkzBQumV909lw~~60_3.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA2NFgxNjAw/$T2eC16dHJGYE9noojjB7BQumWkq+eg~~60_3.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJ,!qoFCS2KvcLFBQ15Luer1g~~60_3.JPG

The buyer should have known it was likely not a '58 engine (at least had someone who knows the cars better to look at the pictures)

[cadillacmike68]

I wonder if ebay took the listings down because of the OP's initial complaint. Ebay has been known to do that.

BTW I would have argued to ebay that the item (the 58 Eldo ) was "Significantly Not as described" and Then cite the listing's claim that the engine and frame were "matching numbers".

In my opinion, the Seller should have known for certain or never entered that phrase in the listing. The fact that he Did add that phrase makes him liable.

On the other hand, if there was a photo of the engine compartment showing the lack of the top mounted oil filter, then there is an onus on he buyer to have noticed that as well.

Still don't know how much we are talking about, so I'm not sure how wound up I would be if it were me, but i get wound up pretty quickly over false statements in ads, etc. I also try to do my homework on big things ahead of time.

[Andrew Armitage]

You're not alone.

I purchased a '47 Packard from a well established classic car dealer that advertised it as highly original.  It ran well so I didn't have to do much of anything to it at first. A year goes by and the starter blew up. I sourced a new one at a substantial cost and it looked nothing like the one I took off not to mention it didn't fit. I checked the engine number and referenced it with help from a Packard forum I belong to. Turns out the engine was a '54 288 cid L-8 out of a military ambulance and not the top of the line 9 main bearing 356 cid L-8!

I had a knot in my stomach for a while about that one. But what it comes down to is that I still like the car and I drive it regularly. One day I might swap in an original engine, but for now, I just drive and enjoy it.

Lesson learned is that if you're spending a substantial amount of money and can't perform an expert inspection, you better hire an expert in that particular make and year so your not blind sided later on. Never believe anything that comes out of a sellers mouth that you can't verify yourself.

[STDog]

Lesson learned is that if you're spending a substantial amount of money and can't perform an expert inspection, you better hire an expert in that particular make and year so your not blind sided later on. Never believe anything that comes out of a sellers mouth that you can't verify yourself.

Agreed.

Curious, do the inspectors generally offer guarantees concerning their work?
If it's later discovered that they missed something, do you have recourse through them?

Like your Packard, if it had been inspected and he missed the engine change, would he be liable in anyway?

[STDog]

I wonder if ebay took the listings down because of the OP's initial complaint. Ebay has been known to do that.

Could be. Interesting that all 3 listing were pulled around the same time.

[Andrew Armitage]

Agreed.

Curious, do the inspectors generally offer guarantees concerning their work?
If it's later discovered that they missed something, do you have recourse through them?

Like your Packard, if it had been inspected and he missed the engine change, would he be liable in anyway?

Probably not. I'm sure there's some kind of "hold harmless" clause. So once again, make sure the inspector is an expert in the particular make / year. I know of no one that is an expert across all brands and years.

In my case, the engine looks almost identical especially since all the hardware attached to the engine was switched over, horns mounted on the engine, spark plug wire holder, air cleaner, etc... The only way to really tell is by looking at the starter (the 356 had a very unique looking one) or verifying the engine number. I have yet to have anyone from the Packard Club take notice.

[Dan LeBlanc]

On the other hand, if there was a photo of the engine compartment showing the lack of the top mounted oil filter, then there is an onus on he buyer to have noticed that as well.

I just saw the pictures for the first time and I know I would've noticed that right off the bat that it was a 390.  Research is key here as a buyer.  I would scope out other 58's just to get a good feel for what to look for, then if I noticed something off, I would call the seller out on it before buying.

Sorry if I'm not sympathetic here, but that's just how it is.

Do your homework on your particular year/model BEFORE you buy.

I got burned on my Fleetwood.  I take full responsibility for the purchase - bought sight unseen, talked to someone who knew the car, but I still didn't lay eyes on it until money had already exchanged hands.  It's my fault, so I put my big boy pants on, sucked it up, and now I'm doing what is needed to make it a good driver.

[Huffstutler]

Bill, I am with one poster here... if you and the seller are both CLC members, then try using the benefits that come with being a member and see if the club president or a representative can help mediate the situation first.  If no success then try legal action.  But it seems like you have given him many opportunities to correct it with “benefit of the doubt”.

As for matching numbers... if the description says they do match then you have some grounds.  If you bought it sight unseen, that is another issue.  Depends on the judge and how they view this but I am sure the best you can get out of this situation is the replacement motor or the cost of one that is ready to drop in and run, even if unrestored (equal to condition with the one in the car).

Matching numbers do count if you are planning on auctioning it later with people like Barrett Jackson because this raises the value of being all factory original.  When they don't match then values comes down some.  Same if you plan on earning points in concours shows.

Eric  Huffstutler

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Non-matching numbers often have huge implications on values on high dollar muscle cars, Vettes and such. Because the manner in which most of these cars were driven, most have had their engines replaced. Rarely does anyone ask or even make a point of mentioning that on Cadillacs because they almost always have their original engines.

One key difference is that each Cadillac engine was stamped with the actual VIN# of the car. For all practical purposes, finding the exact motor installed when new is a virtual impossibility. Especially if the swap had taken place decades ago by God knows who and where. Yet for a lot of muscle cars, there would often be a range of engine numbers for a given VIN # and any one of them would be judged correct. The same situation is infinitely more difficult to rectify on a Cadillac product.

That said- does it make a difference in value in the case of this particular? It's very difficult to answer but I have no doubt there are a lot of mega-dollar restored Cadillacs- such as '59 Biarritzes that do not have their factory installed engines and still command some serious money. Many I've seen don't even have their original tri-carb setups and still bring big $$$. A big portion of the market just doesn't seem to care- so long as the engine at least appears appropriate to the car.

I will say in the case of Mr Marsh's '58, whoever did the swap- they reinstalled the proper tri-power setup with correct dual snorkel gold 1958 cleaner, which should count for something, at the very least.   

[Louis Smith]

Ah the "matching numbers" conundrum has taken on a life of its own.  It has been my observation that many classic car buyers of "high end" collectibles i.e. 1959 Eldorados, 1959 Eldorados etc., are not, for the most part, true car aficionados.  They don't really care too much for the cars originality or pedigree.  As long as the car looks great, they are happy.  Many of these high end cars, have had extensive, and costly restorations, and very little sometimes remain of what came out of the factory.   

[76eldo]

I think if a car has "matching numbers" that's great.  If the car has had an engine replaced with the same year engine on a Cadillac, that would be acceptable to me if I was buying this car.

The car has a 62 engine which is totally incorrect for this car and let's face it, if the guy ever changed the oil on the car he had to know something was not correct.

Brian

[STDog]

let's face it, if the guy ever changed the oil on the car he had to know something was not correct.

Which I doubt happened since he never bothered to register it. That tells me it just sat in the garage neglected.

That said- does it make a difference in value in the case of this particular?

I don't see the factory stamped engine adding much versus another '58 Eldo engine (special camshaft v/s other '58 engines), any other '58 engine, or even another 365 engine, as long as it has a proper tri-power setup.
(and in this case the air clean housing has been damaged)

But, a 390? Though a better engine, that would reduce the value a bit.

So I see merrit in some reimbursement for such a wrong engine.

Ranks up there with buying a '67 Eldo and it having a 472 in it.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Now if the purchase price was brought into the mix, would everyone's opinion change if you knew?  If the car was bought at a price that would be fair for an incorrect engine, I bet everyone would be saying good deal.