'59 Eldo at Mecum Dallas

[Chuck Patton]

Hello

This is an unfortunate blemish on our hobby.  Hopefully the auction companies look closer to protect their buyers.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

With all the people buzzing around at these auctions, surely there is someone not doing anything that important that they cannot check the bonafides of every car that they sell.

The banner across the top of the windscreen on the '59 said it was 100% restored original, but with all the non-original things mentioned, the Auctioneers could be liable for mis-representation?

Bruce.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Restored Original is one term that really gets me going.

Either a car is original, or it is restored.  It can't be both.

[Scot Minesinger]

The words "could be liable" is really being kind.  It by all indications is fraud, but very difficult to prosecute.  One of my friends suffered a crappy restore on his Cadillac and sued.  If our forum was the judge, he would have easily won.  He lost.  Judges do not have much sympathy that fender skirts are modified to bolt on, rather than as the factory intended as a damaged from being non-authentic. 

Lesson learned here is to visit the shop every week and inspect their work, guiding them as they proceed and persuading them at each step rather than wait until the end where almost all the money is paid.

There must be a market for what the forum considers badly restored classic cars that is profitable, or it would not exist.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Cases such as these are civil court matters, rarely does law enforcement get involved. Best policy is stay away unless you either know what you're doing or have assistance from someone who does.

Be especially wary of restorations of high dollar cars where incentive for "cloning" is the greatest.

Had not been aware Cadillac data plates are being forged. Learned something new today. 

[wrefakis]

this is the tag from the total fake car 543 run thru mecum and ebay and auctions America out of same shop as blue one
the real 543 is in the club blue car redone in persian

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Don't disagree that the vin plate is a "restored original" (a piece of Aluminum restored with numbers and letters to look original), but would there not be an issue between the title and the vin plate?
Greg Surfas

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

this is the tag from the total fake car 543 run thru mecum and ebay and auctions America out of same shop as blue one
the real 543 is in the club blue car redone in persian

The rivets are wrong for a start.

The screw laying in the channel of the cowl weatherstripping is a nice touch too....

Don't disagree that the vin plate is a "restored original" (a piece of Aluminum restored with numbers and letters to look original), but would there not be an issue between the title and the vin plate?
Greg Surfas

VIN is not on the data plate so there would be nothing on the title to disagree with.

The factory build sheet is the only document that ties the VIN with the data plate.

[Scot Minesinger]

I would never know that the data plate riveted (wrong rivets) and pictured is not real (original to car) and rivets were wrong.  Plus the VIN number is not on it, which makes it difficult to authenticate.  Guess I will stick to classics under $30k range. 

This size plate, type of paint (shown on tag), and etc. are likely GM, not Cadillac specific and span several years.  Accordingly it was probably profitable for some unscrupulous entity to duplicate the dies and manufacturer a set up that could forge those aluminum data plates under the guise of that sometimes an original is damaged and just need to remake it.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

If someone really serious about pursuing a high dollar '59 EBZ, get the block stamping, the data plate, the VIN stamping on the frame and reconcile all items with the build sheet.

Pretty hard to get it all right without leaving any telltale signs of re-stamping.

[Scot Minesinger]

You would think it would be safe to just buy a 1959 Cadillac convertible, but I hear that they make them by cutting up Coupes, which is unlikely to be a nice driving car top up or down (top sealing issues, rigidity, and other shortcuts).  When high car values are at stake, you have to be so careful.  It does not seem expensive (maybe a couple thousand dollars) to alter the VIN on frame, engine block, and aluminum data sheet.  A skilled person could probably do it so it would fool many car people.

[76eldo]

Just like anything else, it's always buyer beware.  However, if a well known auction house endorses the car and it's later found out to be totally fake, as in having a bogus body trim tag that belongs to another car, the auction house should be forced to refund the money and buy the car back.

It's important to do your homework on any specific car you are buying or get assistance from someone who knows that specific car very well.

Brian

[76eldo]

Scott,

There are a lot of differences on a convertible frame that are easy to spot, and you would have to have a rear tub section, complete top, complete windshield with interior and exterior trim, and much more.

It's been done and I am sure that there are a lot of fake 59 drop tops rolling around out there but anyone with some basic knowledge of a real 59 or 60 convert can spot a fake pretty easily.

Brian

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Well I can't afford the kind of car that someone is likely to go to such lengths so it's unlikely I'll ever be facing any problems along these lines.     Besides, I mainly stick with original cars making these concerns all the more remote.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Two data plates for comparison purposes. Upper data plate is a repro, lower is genuine.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

When studying the two plates, the non-original plates are always different to the originals.

GM had a way of really pressing the letters and numerals out crisply, whereas the reproductions lack the sharp edges
around the sides of the punchings.

Bruce.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Couple items I noticed -

The baseline of "'-LAC" lettering in "CADILLAC" looks slightly crooked.

"DETROIT. MICHIGAN" (separated by a period instead of a comma)

Dot missing between "Magic Mirror" in repro - or at least is not as prominent.

Anybody else?

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

The reason I believe that the repros are so different from the originals, is that the supplier of the Cadillc originals
made that many, that their stampings had to be perfect, whereas the repro supplier cannot afford to spend the
vast sum of money to create a limited number.

The Factory Stamper probably cost more than a Million Dollars.

Bruce.

[savemy67]

Hello all,

A hyphen should be located between the words Magic and Mirror.  This is quite clear in the photo of what I'll refer to as the genuine tag, but is barely discernible, if at all, in what I'll refer to as the bogus tag.  The genuine tag also has rivets with the centers clear of any mandrel debris from installation, and better registration of the letters LL, as Eric D. pointed out.  Also notice the difference in the face of the words Magic Mirror.  The relief of the letters is not as high.  These differences are subtle, but certainly could call into question the tag's authenticity.

Bruce - The Mergenthaler Linotype machine, invented in the 1880's, sold new for about $3300.  The machine GM used to stamp the body tags is essentially a derivative of a Linotype.  By 1959, while the purchasing power of the U.S. dollar had eroded somewhat, the stamping machine used by GM for the body tags probably cost about $10,000.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter

[Glen]

In the shipyard we used a machine called addressograph.  One can be seen here
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4f8AAOSwYmZXEGsE/s-l1600.jpg
These machines were very common.  We used them to type out the identifying info on a plate and attached to each piece before it went in for sand blasting. 
Some were used to make “charge cards” for checking out tools in the tool room. 
Many companies used them to address envelopes when billing customers, the original purpose.   

In my fertile mind I imagine that GM stamped the basic info on the plates with one die and the info that was unique to the car was typed by an individual from the build sheet.   If you look at the original tag above the style number (59-6337) seems to be a tiny bit higher than the word style.  While the numbers for trim (45) and paint (40-12) are a tiny bit lower than the words.   
Typing on those machines was very slow.  The dies that formed the letters spun around.  When you pressed a key you had to wait until the letter you selected to come around then it stamped the letter.  You could not type faster than about one character per second.   
Would not mind having one of those now.  I have a pile of plates.