'59 Eldo at Mecum Dallas

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Back again.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1959-Cadillac-Eldorado-Biarritz-/201717811182?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2ef75187ee:g:7EAAAOSwImRYKRCL&item=201717811182

[Scot Minesinger]

The e-bay listing certainly conflicts with the postings here, and I trust this forum.  This e-bay listing gives new meaning to puffery and let the buyer be ware!

[Quentin Hall]

Way back when I went to the Dallas grand nationals in 1996, I dragged my unrestored 59 Biarritz that I towed from Winnipeg. I met a bunch of great 59 owners but my forlorn car was the only one that showed up.
    The owner of the blue car introduced himself to me and we went to his place in Dallas and I saw the car mid restoration and I'm pretty sure I verified the correct numbers at the time. I recall it had a good sound body.
We also went to a friend of his who had a triple black bucket seat car with an over the top resto.
I remember him telling me the old 99 bucket seat story then. We now know via Bill Refakis that 40% were buckets.
As an aside I was the guy who converted the rhd Persian sand car back to original. I was very happy with the result considering how the original conversion was done.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

As an aside, I was lucky enough to see the Persian Sand car twice in 1977.

Once outside the Ford Factory on Sydney Road, outside Melbourne, as I was driving my '55 Chev Convertible
to the Narrandera  Street Rod Nationals, and again at Penrith in New South Wales at the All American Day, on my way
back from a side-trip to Queensland, after Narrandera.

It was here that I witnessed the then owner, Keith, operating the air suspension to the onlookers.   Been a friend of Keith
to this day.

I believe I took a picture of it then, and it looked really nice then, but never realised the importance of it.

Bruce.

[Scot Minesinger]

Quentin,

The body tag of this blue 59 EBZ number 543 the subject of this post, is shown to be a fake, there are two 543 EBZ's, or Bill's friend with the 543 EBZ is a fake.  Since this forum has identified the tag of the subject "EBZ" in this post to be a forgery with incorrect rivets, wrong style lettering, punctuation (no pronounced dash between script "Magic" and "Mirror") and etc., it sure seems like the car for sale is also a forgery of a 1959 EBZ.  A person able to afford such an expensive collector car is also usually intelligent, and hence the trouble selling this car.  The white dash is the huge giveaway that something is major wrong.  It almost cannot be driven due to reduced visibility on a sunny day, which is the only type of day it would get driven.

I wish the seller could be reported to the authorities, but the police probably have a lot more to do than go after the seller of an unauthentic collector car.  Hence this behavior is common and to be guarded against.

[chrisntam]

snip.........  A person able to afford such an expensive collector car is also usually intelligent,  snip.

You did say "usually".   aka lottery winnners............

[Quentin Hall]

Hmmm. Tags get lost and damaged. Chassis Vin on the blue car is correct Biarritz. Tags get removed to sand blast or acid dip bodies. Some tags get damaged or lost during restorations, some are taken off by prior owners. I know I've seen  many rare cars not just Eldorados with lost tags.
Reproduction tags are available and rivets are available too. When something is 60 years old the chances of every nuance being perfect are slim. The determination is up to the buyer to decide whether the pluses outweigh the negatives. . . And I'm not just talking about this car. Every single car I've owned has good and bad points. The sale price is usually the determining factor.
I'm confidant that the blue car is legitimate, albeit with a few unfortunate authenticity errors. . . . But then look at the Franklin Mint model that it was modeled off. Same white dash meaning there must be another out there that Franklin Mint copied off.

[Scot Minesinger]

OK, fair enough...rare cars may have removed body tags...and buyer can decide.  I draw the line at body tags that are just wrong because this is the same number as another club member.  This Cadillac is worth to me what a nice restored 1959 convertible (not a hard top cut) with Eldorado moldings.  If I restored a 1959 Cadillac convertible, probably would add these molding myself.

The difference in price between a real undisputed 1959 Eldorado convertible and a 1959 Series 62 Cadillac convertible in equal condition (towards #1 or #2) is in the 100k rang, certainly past 50k difference, and the difference in cost to make a 1959 series 62 convertible into a fake 1959 Eldorado is certainly under 10k, so there is quite a profit motive.

I think the person offering it for sale should document the authenticity to justify the price and admit that the body tag is a reproduction, and at least get a body tag that is ideally true and certainly not a duplicate of a surviving 1959 Eldorado.

Just cannot endorse this seller in any way. 

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Clarification: Bill said the car with fake tag showing body 543 had been restored by the same shop that did this blue car.

Have yet to see an image of the blue's car tag in either presentation - Mecum or eBay's.

The viewer can draw his own inferences why the seller of a six-figure car omitted this important item from the sales presentation - twice. 

[Quentin Hall]

Blue cars tag is FW 252. I maintain what I wrote prior. Very few 60 year olds out there without some issues. That's part of the restoration business. If you knew what was under some of the shiny paint at Pebble Beach we would die.
Point is that even the best survivors get to a point where they need a rebuild of some components be it for aesthetics or mechanical prudence. Unless you have a project manager who is a specialist, very few professional shops or clients have the ability or cost absorbing ability to invest the vast sums to do these cars 100% as they rolled off the floor. Having been involved in helping several incredible builds undertaken by friends over the past few years, I can attest to the vast amounts of time, money and effort that is involved seeking that elusive perfection.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

That tag is a repro too.  Just saying.

[Quentin Hall]

We know Eric. That is what started the discussion direction.

[Scot Minesinger]

Quentin,

We certainly agree that it takes a monumental effort and cost to restore a car correctly.  I don't think a 1959 Cadillac could be restored correctly to my standards for much less than 250k.  I rebuilt my rag connector from steering column to steering gear on 1970 Cadillac, and is someone really going to pay me the 8 hours @ $60 to do this right?  No they will not. 

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Why not, I just paid ov er $400.00 to have a shop (Speed shop coi9ncidentally) chage the steering column on my '79.  Some jobs are worth the angst and some are not.  It took them 3.5 hours at $80.00 per hour.  If I would have done it it probably would have taken at least twice that much time, and since the3 column had to come apart, I would have had to buy a couple of specialty tools that I probably would never have used again.
8 Hours for a "rag" joint? Seems an awful lot of time, especially on a 70 where it is readily accessible.

Greg Surfas

[Scot Minesinger]

Greg, I was making it Pebble Beach work with media blast, powder coated and all, plus I'm slow and careful.  It was done so it resembled new from the factory and much more durable - sometimes you just got to do one thing really well.  To really do a factory resembling restore is extremely time consuming and requires much knowledge - most restoration shops would be challenged.  This is in evidence of the subject of this post.  The seller wants a great deal of money for a car that from 100 feet away (provided you can see the white dash - what car person does not know that no factory provided a white dash?) is wrong.

[Quentin Hall]

Try 5000 man hours at $80 to $100 per hour. Plus parts.  59 Biarritzs can easily close to that.
I reckon most pebble beach full on classic restos are double that.

[Caddyholic]

How many 70 cadillacs make it to Pebble Beach?

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

If they had places for every car that was worthy of being at Pebble Beach, there would be no room for the paying onlookers.

From what I see, Pebble Beach is designed for those cars that nobody really can afford, or, if they could, never be driven.

Bruce.

[Scot Minesinger]

If a 1970 Cadillac DVC was at Pebble Beach it would be the most powerful 6 passenger convertible there.  Not to mention top up is weather tight and it has all the modern conveniences combined with old school coolness.

[Rmperry]

I have read through the string of posts regarding the 59 Eldorado at the Dallas Mecum auction and had to laugh at most of them. I won't single out the absurd posts by using anyone's name but the only guy commenting that even came close to having a clue was Quentin. By the way, Hi Quentin, we have not spoke for quite a while. I sold the car in question back around 2008 to someone other than the current owner. That current owner managed to find me and ask me about this car since I restored it. Quentin is the only one of you that ever saw the car in person and as he said, it is a 100% legit car. All this talk of the cowl tags has nothing to do with this car because you don't have a picture of this cars tag. Someone said Refakis knows that the same shop restored this Eldorado and some other Eldorado that you are talking about here??? FALSE! The shop that did this car has never done any other 59 Eldorado!! This was restored in Dallas, I have no clue why Refakis would make such a false claim if in fact he ever actually said that. The dash is white because I used the Franklin mint model as a guide since it too was Argyle blue. They must have found one with a white dash for their model because they do tend to authenticate their stuff. This car is NOT for the purist though which many on this forum would probably be. It's much nicer than original. It is real, it is legit and it is gorgeous!