Forum Concerns on Judging

[Greg Powers]

I have been involved in several of the recent posts regarding Grand National attendance and specifically the cars. Many of the posts have evolved in lengthy commentaries on judging. I am not intending for this post to try and "reinvent the wheel" but wondering how we as a club have input into the judging format  and how to voice some of the simple concerns.  I have heard the complaints from judges that it takes so long to judge that they don't get to see the  other cars after they are through judging before the cars are gone from the show field. I have also heard that some only wanted to display their cars but if it cost the same to have them judged then let them judge them. I think that many appreciate the combination of the touring and primary judging but the lumping of the senior cars into the mix doesn't seem quite right. We have needed to address the judging for a number of years but I hope that we are still a work in progress. !) If Display Only cost were lower we might see more vehicles on the show field. 2) If the judging form were not quite so lengthy and detailed for the Touring and Primary Class vehicles we might not have judges spending all day judging. 3) If Senior Class was judged as a separate class by a select group of judges with a very detailed form, it would be more accurately and honestly judged. 4) If times to begin judging and times for allowed removal of show cars were updated to match each shows specific needs it would allow more people to view the cars. Just some thoughts and things that I have heard as a judge on the field. Not trying to start from scratch but just trying to "tweak" what we have.

[Vince Taliano #13852]

Greg,

Barry Wheeler mentioned there is a call tonight to recap the Grand National.  I don't know if judging is a topic for that call, so you may want to reach out to Bill Anderson or other members of the judging committee directly.  They are listed in the CLC Judging Manual 2018.

Thanks.

Vince

[Dan LeBlanc]

I think half the problem is the lack of judges. The AACA also has the same problem. I've only judged once (71-78 Eldorados of which I know enough the get me through).  That was a big class in Quincy. We had 22 cars to judge. It was a run of work.

My thought is that there needs to be some sort of incentive to attract judges beyond the points system. Either waiving the Grand National fee or a free dinner at the awards banquet for the judge and their companion. A token of appreciation for their time.

Just my two cents. I know it couldn't hurt.

[cadillacmike68]

I think half the problem is the lack of judges. The AACA also has the same problem. I've only judged once (71-78 Eldorados of which I know enough the get me through).  That was a big class in Quincy. We had 22 cars to judge. It was a run of work.

My thought is that there needs to be some sort of incentive to attract judges beyond the points system. Either waiving the Grand National fee or a free dinner at the awards banquet for the judge and their companion. A token of appreciation for their time.

Just my two cents. I know it couldn't hurt.

There used to be a judges breakfast, but that was hardly an incentive because you pretty much had to be there to go over the "house rules", etc.

[STS05lg]

Mike, there is still a judges breakfast, this year it did not cost the club anything because the hotel served a complementary breakfast and we just went down and ate breakfast and then to the briefing. Also judges get a free lunch. At McLean it was a hot dog or hamburger and a Coke, at San Marcis it was a nice sandwich, chips, apple, cookie, and a Coke.
Dan I agree the judges should get a complementary banquet ticket for them selves, and then they would only have to pay for their family members. The banquet is a revenue source for the event so the CLC could not give tickets to the judges family, only the judge. IMHO.

[Dan LeBlanc]

That's a good point Lynn - that could be a good enough carrot at the end of the stick.

[Tom Hall 7485]

Greg, thank you for your help on the Class 25 Authenticity Manual and stating your concerns about judging.

I have judged at only one GN, the one closest to my home, and would not do it again, no matter how fine a breakfast was provided.  For me, it was too much precious time spent at just one class of cars, at the expense of being able to linger at other classes of cars and browse the vendor booths.  Indeed, the class I was asked to judge was not one where I had any great knowledge of the cars.

You needn't be too delicate about requesting changes to judging.  I'm not going to mince words here.  These are not "forum concerns".  They are concerns that suggest a problem in club governance.

Mr. Rubin, EVP, had a marvelous, poignant editorial in the latest Self-Starter about not turning a cold shoulder to entrants at meets.  His editorial was about conduct at meets, but it should apply equally to club governance, including major revisions to the club, such as revisions to the C&LC Constitution and By-Laws, and to a restructuring of judging that took place in recent years.

Within just a few months of Carl Steig's death, there was a movement in this club to revamp judging.  The changes to our judging were proposed mainly by a "blue-ribbon" committee, and the C&LC adopted certain changes not slowly and incrementally over four or six years, but ASAP.  How vigorously did the club invite proposals from ordinary rank-and-file members? How much of that input was accepted?  How did the club streamline the process to take less of the judges' and tabulators' time? 

Judging was already cumbersome and time-consuming before the "new judging" was implemented.  Reading your message here, I take it that the new system of brownie points for judges has apparently not been enough incentive to get people to serve as judges.  I wonder if some of the new curlicues added to our judging may actually be a turn-off to prospective judges.   Certainly the top-down-management style by which these changes were proposed would not have inspired prospective judges to feel that they had a hand in fixing a judging system that they are expected to staff.

People like you and me, Greg, were never supposed to have much say in how judging should be changed, or how quickly.  That much was made clear by the "closed circle of chairs", to borrow Mr. Rubin's imagery.  I suggest you leave the problem with the "blue ribbon committee".  Maybe they can judge all of the cars for us. 

[Dan LeBlanc]

Greg, thank you for your help on the Class 25 Authenticity Manual and stating your concerns about judging.

I have judged at only one GN, the one closest to my home, and would not do it again, no matter how fine a breakfast was provided.  For me, it was too much precious time spent at just one class of cars, at the expense of being able to linger at other classes of cars and browse the vendor booths.  Indeed, the class I was asked to judge was not one where I had any great knowledge of the cars.

You needn't be too delicate about requesting changes to judging.  I'm not going to mince words here.  These are not "forum concerns".  They are concerns that suggest a problem in club governance.

Mr. Rubin, EVP, had a marvelous, poignant editorial in the latest Self-Starter about not turning a cold shoulder to entrants at meets.  His editorial was about conduct at meets, but it should apply equally to club governance, including major revisions to the club, such as revisions to the C&LC Constitution and By-Laws, and to a restructuring of judging that took place in recent years.

Within just a few months of Carl Steig's death, there was a movement in this club to revamp judging.  In fact, the new Chief Judge could not wait to get his hands on the judging process.  The changes to our judging were proposed mainly by a "blue-ribbon" committee, and the C&LC adopted certain changes not slowly and incrementally over four or six years, but ASAP.  How vigorously did the club invite proposals from ordinary rank-and-file members? How much of that input was accepted?  How did the club streamline the process to take less of the judges' and tabulators' time? 

Judging was already cumbersome and time-consuming before the "new judging" was implemented.  Reading your message here, I take it that the new system of brownie points for judges has apparently not been enough incentive to get people to serve as judges.  I wonder if some of the new curlicues added to our judging may actually be a turn-off to prospective judges.   Certainly the top-down-management style by which these changes were proposed would not have inspired prospective judges to feel that they had a hand in fixing a judging system that they are expected to staff.

People like you and me, Greg, were never supposed to have much say in how judging should be changed, or how quickly.  That much was made clear by the "closed circle of chairs", to borrow Mr. Rubin's imagery.  I suggest you leave the problem with the "blue ribbon committee".  Maybe they can judge all of the cars for us.

Tom - this is the best comment I have seen on judging since I've been a member of the forum and of the club.  Allow me to buy you a beverage of your choice should our paths ever cross!

I was at the board meeting when the changes were first being discussed.  I thought exactly the same thing you are thinking now.  I've been a judge and I've had a car judged.  Maybe I missed it, but I did not see any call for input in the Self Starter, via email, or letter in my mailbox regarding proposed changes.  Was there a referendum?  If so, I didn't get the ballot.

Point very well stated in your reply.

[druby]

Well stated Tom Hall !! Pretty sad when the Chief Judge isn't even a member of the local chapter but attends some of our meets, he sure was "pushy" about getting donations for the museum from our chapter when funds were needed ! As long as he sits on the board, the CLC Museum won't get a dime of my money. The awards he designed and handed out for the " Modified Class " at the 2017 GN were in my opinion were tasteless compared to all other awards. He needed a sponsor for those awards and I gladly agreed to pay out of my own pocket with the understanding that I would have some input in the design of the award, he flat out refused to let me help out with the design so I declined to provide any funding for such award. Below is a resemblance of the award I would've chosen to give out but was told by Bill Anderson that it wasn't in good taste of the CLC !!!! If somebody can provide a picture of the 2017 GN " Modified Classs" award, please post.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

You know it never ceases to amaze me the way we fiscally prioritize.  A car that we wold not think twice about spending $300.00 for an emblem or trim piece that is only marginally better than the one on our cars, $6000 + on a paint job, $5-7000 for an interior, $2-3000 for chrome plating, etc. and then gripe about a few dollars for hotels, registration, and the trip there.
The GN fee for "display only" was $25.00 per car.  How does that compare to $15.00 per day for hotel parking?
Let's get our priorities straight.
Greg Surfas

[nysdarkblue]

In response to Greg in his first statement, it was a big mistake including the Senior Class with the Primary!

[49 Convertible]

We all may have issues with the judging standards but having been a judge for various classes of car since 1976 i believe many of your are missing the point here. First of all, in my opinion, for what it is worth the " chief judge Bill Anderson" has done a terrific job of bringing up the quality and standard of the judging.  Yes, I too, have some issues with standards Bill has set up for judging but he and his committee have worked very hard and admit the judging is still  "a work in progress" and until somebody is ready to "step up to the plate"  and do the job or give constructive criticism to the job that he is doing  then they should back down with their comments.  I, over the years, have had Camaro's judged, a 53 and 54 Bentley's  (over 35 year a member of RROC), and 2 Cadillacs a 48 6267x and currently a 49 6267x.  I have driven all cars to shows and meets unless over 200 miles including a trip to Las Vegas from Southern Ca. for the National.  Cars are cars and we can always learn how to tweak them for the local shows or GN, if reasonable distance.  My two cents worth and cudos to Bill and his team and look forward to the 2019 "revised" judging sheets with some mods.

[STS05lg]

My 2 cents, the one over arching issue with judging that I have noticed is inconsistency, and that is an area that needs a lot of work. I know the Chief Judge is trying to address this with training but the inconsistency is perverse. Which is no ones fault including the chief judge. For example, a car taken to one Grand National does not even qualify for an award and at the very next Grand National gets a first place. It has happened, and it is all the luck of the draw, that is what team you get. For example, some judging teams spend a great deal of time on one car and breeze though the next. Or, members from a specific region highly score a regional car or cars and really go over a car from outside the region with a fine tooth comb. Now the CLC and the Chief Judge can not control this. This is the result of the make up of the teams and those volunteering to be judges. 

In fact the CLC is trying desperately to make a CLC Senior Class awardees equate to a Bloomington Gold or a NCRS Top Flight. Award. IMHO that is not possible but I admire the dedication of those involved in making the CLC Awards as recognizable in auto club circles  as those of Bloomington and NCRS. The facts noted by Dan LaBlanc, Tom Hall, and Dan Ruby are on the mark, but so to is the observations by Herman Desser, There are a lot of moving parts in making the judging more standardized and fair to all. We are loosing each year a lot of experience and knowledge due to the passing of time. My hope is that all the experienced hands continue to take part in the Grand National and participate in the judging so their knowledge can be passed on to those who come after them. I know I learn something new every time I participate and while my area of knowledge revolves around the last of the big ones 1971-1976,. However, I pick up new information about other eras at each event. Just my 2 cents worth and I really like how our members speak their mind and point out areas for improvement instead of just heading for the door.
Best, Lynn

[druby]

I've attended many GN events and shows in all the years I've been associated with the CLC, since 1973 may I say, only to watch and listen as judges make their remarks about vehicles they're judging, I've seen favoritism over one car from another because of the color of the vehicle. I myself chose to "display only" my vehicles and go about my business and enjoy the show and the many people I know in the club. I learned years ago that I wasn't going to let 1-3 judges ruin my day at a show because it wasn't up to their standards. Trophies, plaques, awards are nice to receive for showing your vehicle, lord knows I have many over the years, but I can tell you my feelings don't get hurt for receiving nothing. I've seen club members spew hateful remarks about not receiving an award. There will always be a car better than another in a class or show, get over it ! If your taking a vehicle to a GN and not expecting an award, then you'll never leave with your feelings hurt. Now, on a side note, every member of a Region MUST join the CLC, this is in the bylaws. I feel that it is only fair that ALL board members be required to join and support their LOCAL region in the area they reside in. Potomac Region is fortunate to have a few board members that are active and support the club....just my opinion.

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

First of all, I understand that judging in any car Club
is always a subject that draws comments from the
members both good and bad.  I've had cars judged
at our Grand National meets a number of times.  I've
also had cars judged by the AACA and several well
known concourse events.  None were perfect, all had
issues.  I accept that and applaud Bill Anderson for
trying to improve our system. This can't happen
overnight.  One BIG step is the judges training
program. 

Myself, I've attended over 20 grand national events
and judged at most of those from 1992 onwards.  My
wife Karen worked in the tabulation room during those
years. There were times as Team Captain that I was
the only person on the team of four with experience.
We need EXPERIENCED judges and Bill is addressing
that.

What I strongly object to are the comments made by
some members against Bill Anderson that were not
at all in the form of constructive criticism, but a straight
forward personal attack.  Statements such as "he couldn't
wait to get his hands on the judging process" and "he
had the nerve to ask for museum donations" were the
lowest and most crude remarks I've seen on this forum.

Bill Anderson is not only the Chief Judge but President
of the CLCMRC (Museum).  I served on the Museum Board
for 4 years with Bill and know him well.  He is a tireless
worker for the CLC and spent hundreds of hours
supervising the construction of our museum at Hickory
Corners.  From selecting the contractors, working with
the engineers from the first shovel of dirt to the final
coats of paint he was there.

What's more the construction came in on budget and on
time, and best of all our $1 million Dollar museum is paid
for -- due to generous donations from many CLC members. 

You have to ASK for donations -- that's what fundraising
is all about.

So -- to those who would criticize and pummel someone
like Bill with low ball comments I ask:

Just where the hell were you when all these committes
were doing their work, spending hours in meetings and
traveling at their own expense conducting Club business?

Yes, that's what I thought.  In the future, let's keep these
discussions civil, constructive and helpful.

Mike

[cadillacmike68]

Tom - this is the best comment I have seen on judging since I've been a member of the forum and of the club.  Allow me to buy you a beverage of your choice should our paths ever cross!

I was at the board meeting when the changes were first being discussed.  I thought exactly the same thing you are thinking now.  I've been a judge and I've had a car judged.  Maybe I missed it, but I did not see any call for input in the Self Starter, via email, or letter in my mailbox regarding proposed changes.  Was there a referendum?  If so, I didn't get the ballot.

Point very well stated in your reply.

Yeah, I didn't get the memo either.

I like what Tom wrote, and I knew of it already. It's the same elite at the top mentality and the we know more then you do so don't bother asking, attitude that turns many folks off completely.

[cadillacmike68]

We all may have issues with the judging standards but having been a judge for various classes of car since 1976 i believe many of your are missing the point here. First of all, in my opinion, for what it is worth the " chief judge Bill Anderson" has done a terrific job of bringing up the quality and standard of the judging.  Yes, I too, have some issues with standards Bill has set up for judging but he and his committee have worked very hard and admit the judging is still  "a work in progress" and until somebody is ready to "step up to the plate"  and do the job or give constructive criticism to the job that he is doing  then they should back down with their comments.  I, over the years, have had Camaro's judged, a 53 and 54 Bentley's  (over 35 year a member of RROC), and 2 Cadillacs a 48 6267x and currently a 49 6267x.  I have driven all cars to shows and meets unless over 200 miles including a trip to Las Vegas from Southern Ca. for the National.  Cars are cars and we can always learn how to tweak them for the local shows or GN, if reasonable distance.  My two cents worth and cudos to Bill and his team and look forward to the 2019 "revised" judging sheets with some mods.

Its more like, those at the top won't listen. Has anyone from the judging committee or the chief judge ever came on the forums to even acknowledge the issues?

I remember a few years ago, that ANY reference to judging that was not in the highest regard warranted an immediate deletion of the post(s). That's no way to run an open forum, that WE PAY to be a club member in.

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

[quoteI remember a few years ago, that ANY reference to judging that was not in the highest regard warranted an immediate deletion of the post(s). That's no way to run an open forum, that WE PAY to be a club member in. ][/quote]

What was not permitted to be discussed or argued on
the forum was not the general subject of judging, but
the RESULTS of how your or another car was judged.

The protocol was that such questions or complaints be
forwarded to the chief judge (then, Carl Steig) for
resolution.

I assume that hasn't changed, but if someone has a
question about the topic I suggest that he/she contact
Bill Anderson.

Mike

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

What is not allowed is in the Forum Rules.
"•   No disparaging remarks against CLC judging results from Cadillac & LaSalle Club events."

So everyone please take note.   And be civil.

Bruce.

[cadillacmike68]

(IBTL)

OK, I'm done with this thread. Don't want to get banned.