For the third time, I get it running well and steam starts and water pours out of the tail pipe. I pulled a head with water in the cylinders and and inspected it carefully and could not find a flaw in the head or visible in the cylinders or block. A small amount of water in the oil also. I am mystified and going broke buying "Best Gaskets" The engine started well and ran well but steam was in the exhaust. It is a cold day in Seattle and I thought it was exhaust but when it persisted I shut down and found it was water vapor.
Is there a way to detect leaks in the internals of the engine? Has anybody else had a similar problem and if so what was the solution??
I have been told by a few old timers to use bars leak or some other compound is any rebuild?? Could be a very small leak?
Gary,
Hi. We've been through this a few times. Some cracks are undetectable by the naked eye. Obviously, something is wrong. Call my cell phone tomorrow when you get up. I'll be able to talk because I'll be on the road. You need to do a compression and/or leak down test before getting upset. I went through 3 blocks on the last go 'round before I found a good one. I spent $1700.00 on machining work for one block only to find out it was cracked, luckily BEFORE assembly. The stubborn machinist didn't listen to me regarding magna-fluxing, and went ahead and did a beautiful job on a cracked block. And believe me, I was sick to my stomach over that. He made good for some, but the setback really knocked the wind out of my sails. Hang in there.....
Bobby
973-886-8365 EST
Thanks for the response and offer Bobby.
It has been quite a while with the long periods of time I was not working on the car. I had a reputable shop do the work but I am sure the warranty is long gone. I did not request magnafluxing but wish I had now. Time to find a good block I guess. I have .030 over bore and hopefully the internals can be moved to another block if I go that way. Welding with a Ni (hi nickle) rod may be an answer??
Can these blocks be sleeved?
Quote from: Caddyholic on December 13, 2017, 08:27:08 PM
Can these blocks be sleeved?
Jim,
Hi. More like "Pinned" or "Cold Stitched". The cracks are usually in the same three spots. Most common is in-between the valve seats because there's not much area there. Then off the top of the cylinder. Have also had cracks in the top crossover between the smaller freeze out plugs. Sleeving, of course. "Pinning" or "Cold Stitching", up to you. Have yet to see a cylinder wall Cracked on a Flathead. Usually you sleeve when the bore is too far gone or out-of-round.
Bobby
Here is a picture of my block re-sleeved due to the above mentioned cracks around valve. It can be done and works fine.
Thanks for all of the ideas! Since no water is ending up on the garage floor and I think water is in both sides of the engine, and it comes out in a high volume over a short time I am suspecting the soft plugs in the crossover between the cylinder banks. I will try a radiator pressure test but doubt I will be able to build up pressure with the hand pump that is in the radiator test kit. I recall having to have a soft plug changed due to a pin hole in it. The pictures show the problem at that time.
My guess is that one of them will be the problem, either one of tphte ones previously installed or the new one?
Gary...after you check out the cross over plugs I hope you will report the results.
I've always wondered about the chances of these plugs giving trouble......
Jack Worstell
Hang on Gary. I thought you started this thread with water coming out the exhaust and you pulled a head to find water in the cylinders no?? If one of the small crossover plugs failed that would not give you these symptoms, It would come out under the manifold. There is no way a plug failing is going to get water into the cylinders?? Are we on the same page?
Autoluke that posts on here had a similar problem with his newly machine shop rebuilt engine recently. I'm not sure what exactly they found but hopefully he will see this and respond. Given the amount of trouble you have had Gary I would think this is more than just a head gasket. Good Luck, Harry
Quote from: harry s on December 14, 2017, 11:59:18 AM
Autoluke that posts on here had a similar problem with his newly machine shop rebuilt engine recently. I'm not sure what exactly they found but hopefully he will see this and respond. Given the amount of trouble you have had Gary I would think this is more than just a head gasket. Good Luck, Harry
I believe he changed blocks harry.
He did end up changing blocks but there was an obscure crack or break in the old one as I recall. It was not the usual crack in the valve train/upper cylinder area and not so obvious as to be noticed in the original rebuild. Harry
One of the major problems with rebuilding an engine is after it is built, and started and then let set for a few months, which turns in to many years, the Head Gaskets can fail simply because they never received their "stickicity" from being used. Nothing likes sitting around.
I did hear od a story from GM that if an engine was built, and it didn't go into a vehicle for a month, it was scrapped, as the company didn't want to run the risk of leaks from non-use.
Bruce. >:D
I have read several of these similar posts and the cracks are notoriously in similar areas.
But, I don't think I read why these blocks crack where they do.
Is it because the engines have been wound too tight - hot rodding - recently or back in the day.
Or, are there design flaws.
Anybody know.
Have fun,
Steve B.
Steve, one of the tiny tweaks they did in 41 to increase the BHP was to scallop away the metal at this part of the block for a better flow of air in and out of the combustion chamber. This reduced the thickness so making it weaker. I personally have never seen one of the earlier engines have this problem although some have. Just my two-pennies-worth.
I lost a lot of pictures when my old phone was damaged so the only pictures of the internals are in the restoration forum. I took the pictures at the machine shop and never really studied them. I see some problems in the gasket seating area but not sure if that is where the problems are? I will bump it to top of Restoration forum if anybody is interested. My engine is on second page. It appears that the problem could be between the middle cylinder on either or both sides ?
Something there doesn't look very nice.
I notice that the picture thread was dated 2012, so if it sat around for that long without the gaskets being properly sealed through heat cycling, then I would be inclined to simply put the heads back on with new gaskets and fire it up, and run it in, then do more tests, as in compression tests.
I am not sure if it has been mentioned, but have you inspected the old head gaskets for incomplete sealing?
I rebuilt an engine which wasn't supposed to sit around for so long (moved house) and that leaked at the gaskets. When the work on the car was fully completed, reinstalling new gaskets fixed the problem.
Bruce. >:D
Thanks for response Bruce. First it leaked and then we put in new "Best" Gaskets and it leaked again. Ran well with low water but then we filled to top of radiator and ran it again with no radiator cap so it would not build up pressure. I was taught to run until warm then cool off and torque again. Never got that far with this car.
I am leaning towards believing there is a leak low in the internals because saw no I indication of leakage until we filled it.
I have had very good results with Bar's Leak, and wouldn't hesitate in using it again and again.
Seeing as we don't have cold enough weather down here where I live, (Actually not many places in Australia where one requires to put in any anti-freeze liquid), I am not really familiar with where engines crack under cold conditions, so looking for cracks in abnormal places is unfamiliar to me.
Funny thing though, when I bored out the SBC engine in one of my Hot Rods, going to .060 oversize discovered a large pinhole, low down in the wall of a cylinder. Scratched it clean, and building core sand came out, so, seeing as it was at about 1" above the piston bottom dead centre, we simply bronzed it over, and all was good. The things one does when one has to. This imperfection or possible core-shift wasn't picked up when the block was cast, and still wasn't picked up when the block was machined.
The Gasket surface areas really need to be perfect to allow the gaskets a chance of a good seal.
Put a straight edge over the whole area, and see if there is any visible imperfections.
I would be recommending biting the bullet and have the block decked, even though it means removing and completely stripping down. And while it is bare, have it crack-tested.
Bruce. >:D
Harry..
You are correct.
After chasing the leak as an issue on the block surface , we finally found the problem to be an erosion of the casting adjacent to the lower cylinder wall.
Seems that the shop missed the area during magnaflux.
Quote from: autoluke on December 17, 2017, 09:55:44 AM
After chasing the leak as an issue on the block surface , we finally found the problem to be an erosion of the casting adjacent to the lower cylinder wall.
Seems that the shop missed the area during magnaflux.
Phil,
Hi. Could you post a picture of that if you have it, so we could reference it as another place to double check the block before putting it back into service. ;)
Bobby
If that were the problem in Gary's case a flaw in that area would put all the water in the oil pan but not up in the combustion chambers?
Quote from: Steve Passmore on December 17, 2017, 11:17:34 AM
If that were the problem in Gary's case a flaw in that area would put all the water in the oil pan but not up in the combustion chambers?
Steve,
Hi. Correct.... I wasn't referring to Gary's engine but just in general. It's good to know that there's another possible location for an issue with a Flathead when they magna flux.
Bobby
How do you think the Magnaflux could have missed a flaw in that position Bobby?
Quote from: Steve Passmore on December 17, 2017, 12:18:01 PM
How do you think the Magnaflux could have missed a flaw in that position Bobby?
Most likely laziness OR it was never done and they said it was because they "visually" inspected, or felt the need not to inspect. Coffee Break, Lunch Break, Quitting Time, etc. They used to have some saying that the best cars were made on certain days of the week. I wonder Why? ???
Bobby
Ah, so not the process failing then? ::)
Considering Harry's post and since I have one head off anyway I am considering Bars leak solution.
Sort of flipping a coin so to speak.
I would remove the other head and I would leave water level as it is with the heads off and place pulverized chunks of bars leak in the water. After that I would put the heads back on and run the engine carefully monitoring temperature at the low water level, and then I would slowly pour warm water with bars leak into the radiator also. I am open to any other ideas ?? Worst case is ruining the engine. I would not tighten the radiator cap until a lot of cycles of heating and cooling occurred.
My first inkling of a problem was when I topped of the radiator and started getting vapor in the exhaust and I suspect the water and anti freeze in the cylinders are from a direct leak into the combustion chamber.
Gary,
Hi. Before you pour that crap in, did you pressurize your cooling system like we spoke about? Again, you're wasting your time and money without getting to the root of the problem. Bars Leak is a Band-Aid usually reserved for used car dealers who want to sell a car with a head gasket/cooling system issue. They shouldn't even sell that stuff. A few days ago my best friend was getting blow-by in his air filter and water droplets out of the exhaust in his Ford Truck. He was ready to pour that stuff in or pull the head. I told him to check his PCV valve which is impossible to see under the manifold. Lo and Behold, it was disconnected. Re-installed it, no more issues. Don't be so quick to complicate matters until you find out what's going on. Then you can jump in head first.....
Bobby
Bobby,
I did not tighten the radiator cap but I will reinstall the head and try a pressure test before anything else. It was running so smoothly and then vapor in the exhaust grew and grew. I am not sure the larger volume of water and anti freeze in the cylinder was from leak. If I go through this again I will drain the system to below the cylinder level before removing a head.
I don't know what sort ofg Bars Leak you have in USA, but here we have it as a liquid with small droplets of "stuff" that you pour into the radiator, and then drive the car (or run the engine) and it travels through the coolant system, and when it finds a leak, seals it.
I only use it in an emergency, like when I was travelling USA in 2002, and stuck near Ocala in Florida, and it let me continue travelling onto California, where I found the actual leak whilst entering Las Vegas. (cracked overflow recovery tank)
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on December 17, 2017, 04:31:43 PM
I don't know what sort ofg Bars Leak you have in USA, but here we have it as a liquid with small droplets of "stuff" that you pour into the radiator, and then drive the car (or run the engine) and it travels through the coolant system, and when it finds a leak, seals it.
I only use it in an emergency, like when I was travelling USA in 2002, and stuck near Ocala in Florida, and it let me continue travelling onto California, where I found the actual leak whilst entering Las Vegas. (cracked overflow recovery tank)
Bruce. >:D
Bruce,
Similar to "Fix-a-Flat" in a can, except for your cooling system. Once you get home, you get a new tire. As in your case, the application was an Emergency or else I'm sure you wouldn't have used it.
Bobby
Gary,
Try putting air to the cylinders. Put 100psi through the spark plug hole and Rotate the cylinder being tested to the bottom of the stroke where both valves are shut and the hissing stops. Look into the radiator and watch for bubbles. It should help isolate which cylinder your looking for.
Are you using copper spray way on the new gaskets. It's a napa product you paint the gasket with. I use it on all the copper gasket engines I do.
Our 42' had 2 cylinders cracked like everyone else's. I stitch pinned the crack and has a sleeve installed in that cylinder.
Gary, I was looking at your pictures. They should have decked that block to get rid of the pits. How pitted are the heads? I wouldn't trust the headgaskets would ever seal those up. About all you can do is seal them with copper spray and try it.
Still try the air. My guess is the center cylinders will be the leakers.
Gary hasn't posted any pictures?? unless you're looking at Bobby's?
Gary's pictures are in the restoration corner thread at the top of the page.
Ah, I see. :)
I don't. Where the hell are they?? Why not post them here??
Quote from: Steve Passmore on December 18, 2017, 01:39:07 PM
Unless you're looking at Bobby's?
Steve,
Gary's in trouble if his engine looks like one of mine DID....... ;D ;D ;D
Bobby
Quote from: Bob Hoffmann CLC#96 on December 18, 2017, 09:15:33 PM
I don't. Where the hell are they?? Why not post them here??
Here they are.
http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=118307.20
Just scroll down to the middle of the page, and all will be revealed.
Bruce. >:D
I've been watching this post since it started. Is the problem caused from age, mileage, or does it just happen? I have a '41 with 58,000 miles. Runs fine and the engine has never been opened. Beyond routine maintenance - is there anything one should do to prevent or forestall such a problem. Or us it just the luck of the draw?
Jim Miller
I don't think it's mileage. Our 42' has 42,000 miles on it. Not 142k either. I have two other blocks I thought were good. Once I knew the one in the car was cracked I found the cracks in the others. When you see a pattern of like we are seeing now then it's a design, casting flaw, or circulation problem. I had our block acid dipped to remove the internal rust. Everyone of these I had apart have had a lot of rust in them. Maybe that rust caused overheating near the valve area.
I wouldn't worry about it. Our car ran fine, didn't have antifreeze in the oil, or oil in the antifreeze. Pull the head and it will cost you a set of gaskets if your curious. But.. what if yours is cracked, are you going to want to rebuild the engine. I'd just keep an eye on the oil and antifreeze. The foam/oil rises to the top of the radiator.
I feel these engines run pretty hot or have circulation hot spots. Running Evans waterless coolant will help this. I run it in all our cars and feel it does a better job of cooling than anti-freeze.
Quote from: Jim Miller on December 19, 2017, 06:30:20 AM
I've been watching this post since it started. Is the problem caused from age, mileage, or does it just happen? I have a '41 with 58,000 miles. Runs fine and the engine has never been opened. Beyond routine maintenance - is there anything one should do to prevent or forestall such a problem. Or us it just the luck of the draw?
Jim Miller
I think it's more of a case of neglect and standing Jim when these cars were worth nothing. They do suffer from rust build up at the rear of the blocks which would have been ignored, then the overheating starts. The biggest problem is when they are re-started after many years dormant. The crud has solidified by that time.
Brad and Steve - thanks for the feedback. While curious, I'm not going to touch the engine. I've learned from the forum - if it ain't broke .............Brad, you seem to be pleased with the Evans Waterless. I've done a lot of reading on it but haven't made the change. I did read that the engines can run a bit hotter but the heat is better dispersed. You would recommend making the change based on your experience?
Jim Miller
I had a long chat with Eddie Jones who is quite experienced in regards to the 346 engine. He is betting it is a crack near the number 3 exhaust valve. I think I will try put the right head back on (Left is still on) and pressure test teach cylinder individually, in addition to testing cooling side through the radiator.
My theory is use to about 100 PSI or so air injected through the spark plug hole. With no spark plugs in the other cylinders the pressure should move that piston to the bottom, of the stroke where the valves should be closed. After that I should know where the problem is??
If it is that I will probably need to pull the engine and replace it or have it bored and sleeved.
Hate to consider changing engines at this point. Other option would be to find a good engine and have it bored .030 " and go from there?
Does anybody know how much pressure there is in the combustion chamber when the engine is running??
Quote from: Jim Miller on December 19, 2017, 06:30:20 AM
I've been watching this post since it started. Is the problem caused from age, mileage, or does it just happen? I have a '41 with 58,000 miles. Runs fine and the engine has never been opened. Beyond routine maintenance - is there anything one should do to prevent or forestall such a problem. Or us it just the luck of the draw?
Jim Miller
Answer: Runs fine and the engine has never been opened.
Bobby
[quote author=gary griffin link=topic=147840.msg379709#msg379709 .
My theory is use to about 100 PSI or so air injected through the spark plug hole. With no spark plugs in the other cylinders the pressure should move that piston to the bottom, of the stroke where the valves should be closed. After that I should know where the problem is??
Does anybody know how much pressure there is in the combustion chamber when the engine is running??
[/quote]
I have never studied that theory Gary, I've never tried to see if one cylinder could turn all the others on just 100lbs. I bet the exhaust valve starts to open before the bottom of the stroke anyway so you would lose the pressure.
I have always got the TDC on the firing stroke then applied air and listened for where it was escaping.
Jim,
I've had it in our 31' Buick about 8 years. That car never showed hotter on the gauge. Antifreeze would start to peg the needle if it sat to long idling. The evans stopped that. Now it will peak about 200 and hold it even if it's 90 degrees.
I rebuilt/changed our 35' Auburn to it 2 years ago. I never noticed an increase in that either. Similar end result though. Seems to take idling/parades without problem.
Both cars have capulary tube gauges and maybe they aren't that precise to measure 5 degrees hotter. All I know is the cars never get hotter where before as soon as they stopped moving the guage would start rising. Now they rise to a reasonalbe temp and stop.
It's going in our 42' when I get it back together.
Gary, did you use any copper spray on your head gaskets? Regular gasket probably won't fill those pits. High temp epoxy with a razor blade would fill those and help. Still can't believe he didn't deck that block.