1954 1955 valve timing 331 engine

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Hi everybody, My bedtime reading last night was "The Cadillac Serviceman" for 1954. At the end of the year the new information for the 55 model year was printed and I noticed that although the camshafts were the same for both years the valve timing was retarded by one notch on the timing cogs. My barely run in 1954 engine has felt underpowered right from the start, it idles well and will get up to highway speeds very slowly, could Kanter have supplied me with timing cogs with the 55 markings ? Has anyone else had experience of this type of thing ? I did compression and vaccuum readings before I had done any miles and the compression was low [around the 120 mark] and manifold vaccuum was also low. I put this down to the rings not being seated yet. I need to do this again as I have just done 500 miles and will be doing all the necessary servicing. I full rebuilt the engine using a Kanter rebuild kit plus other parts from Terrill machine.
Thanks,
Phil 

[walt chomosh #23510]

Phil,
  I've waited for a response to your motor questions,but see no one has responded yet.I'm sure you know that the rocker arm ratio is different from the 1954 model to 1955..Also,Cadillac engineers retarded the valve timing by relocating the dowel hole in the camshaft sprocket.(for 1955)Not sure why they retarded the valve timing but piston to valve clearance is always a concern when changing rocker arm ratios and advancing/retarding camshafts.If one was to install a 1955 cam sprocket on a 1954 motor,I would think that the performance would suffer.(lazy performance)I have a used sprocket stored and could possibly view it for a tooth and it's index in relation to the dowel hole if it would be of any help to you.....walt #23510(waltchomosh@yahoo.com)

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Thanks Walt,
Lazy performance is the perfect description for my engine. My old smoky , worn out [cracked heads etc.] engine would run this new , fully rebuilt engine off the road. I did understand from the Serviceman article the changes they had made , but don't have the old parts to match up to the new ones . If it is just the cam sprocket [not cog as I previously called it !] that is different it will just be the position of the punch mark. In theory I could reposition the sprocket correctly [punching a new mark in the correct position for good measure] . It is not impossible to imagine that Kanter supplied me with the wrong cam sprocket - these things can happen. The machine shop installed the timing chain and sprockets, so the only way of me finding out is by me doing some dismantling. So , I would like to take you up on your offer of checking your used sprocket.
Thanks again.
Phil
philjowhyte@btinternet.com

Phil,
  I've waited for a response to your motor questions,but see no one has responded yet.I'm sure you know that the rocker arm ratio is different from the 1954 model to 1955..Also,Cadillac engineers retarded the valve timing by relocating the dowel hole in the camshaft sprocket.(for 1955)Not sure why they retarded the valve timing but piston to valve clearance is always a concern when changing rocker arm ratios and advancing/retarding camshafts.If one was to install a 1955 cam sprocket on a 1954 motor,I would think that the performance would suffer.(lazy performance)I have a used sprocket stored and could possibly view it for a tooth and it's index in relation to the dowel hole if it would be of any help to you.....walt #23510(waltchomosh@yahoo.com)

[Glen]

Do you have the valve timing specs?  If so then you could use a degree wheel to check the valve timing.  That would tell you if your valves are timed correctly without dismantling anything more that just the valve cover. 

The degree wheel would reveal a problem even if you sprocket was marked wrong. 

Glen

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Thanks Glen, The valve timing specs are not in the workshop manual or any of the other Cadillac or Chiltons publications I own. I do own a degree disc as I also own a few old British motorbikes and they need to be timed using one of those [what a pain !, but that's another story !!]. If anyone out there has the right info and procedure for checking this it would be much appreciated.
Phil

[walt chomosh #23510]

Right on Glen! Camshaft specs should definitely be available for this cam...contact any cam MFGer or camshaft regrinder and proceed with a degree wheel...walt #23510

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

My problem is that I'm in England, any idea who I could contact, preferably by email.
Thanks guys,
Phil

[Roger Zimmermann]

Well Phil, the parts books has the same part number for the sprocket on the crankshaft from 1949 to 1958 and the one on the camshaft has the same part number from 1949 to 1962. The camshaft itself was the same from 1953 to 1956. Therefore, if the parts are correct, your problem is not coming from here. I heard that sometimes the harmonic balancer can be off due to age; I don't know if this is your case. You may check with the plug from cylinder # 1 removed if the mark on the balancer is in line with the pointer when the piston # 1 is at top dead center.
Good luck,
Roger
Switzerland

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Thanks for you reply Roger, I just checked my parts book and it shows part number 145 3718 for 1949 through 1954, 1956 through 1960 and part number 146 3420 for 1955 - "sprocket, driven on camshaft". The Cadillac Serviceman for December 1954 says : "the valve timing has been retarded for improved volumetric effinciency by relocating the timing mark on the camshaft sprocket". I hope I don't appear to be a smart ass !! but wrong info can become "right" after appearing on a forum like this.
You may be right , I will check points gap , ignition timing, dwell angle, plug gap and fuel delivery before I get stuck into the valve timing thing !
All the best,
Phil

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

PRIDE COMES BEFORE A FALL !!!
Roger, you'll like this ! After correcting Roger I have just discovered that I have to correct myself ; I previously stated that neither the workshop manual or Chiltons have the valve timing specs, guess what, ofcourse they do !!!
1954 VALVE TIMING
INTAKE OPENS 22 BTDC CLOSES 67 ATDC
EXHAUST OPENS 63 BTDC CLOSES 27 ATDC
I hope this is enough humble pie !
Phil

[Roger Zimmermann]

Thanks for you reply Roger, I just checked my parts book and it shows part number 145 3718 for 1949 through 1954, 1956 through 1960 and part number 146 3420 for 1955 - "sprocket, driven on camshaft". The Cadillac Serviceman for December 1954 says : "the valve timing has been retarded for improved volumetric effinciency by relocating the timing mark on the camshaft sprocket". I hope I don't appear to be a smart ass !! but wrong info can become "right" after appearing on a forum like this.
You may be right , I will check points gap , ignition timing, dwell angle, plug gap and fuel delivery before I get stuck into the valve timing thing !
All the best,
Phil

Now, the correction of my correction! In my previous message, I looked at a parts book going up to 1965. After your answer, I had a look at the part book going up to 1958 and I confess that you are correct, 2 different sprockets are noted in that book.
I assume that later, they realized that the change was not necessary for 1955 and only one spare part was issued (145 3718), covering all the years I mentionned before.
Regarding what you saw in the Cadillac Serviceman: I don't see that they changed the timing by one notch. It says, as you noted, that the timing mark was relocated, that's all! (I have several issues of the Cadillac Serviceman too.)

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Hi Roger, I understood the timing mark referred to is the punch mark on the sprocket. If this was relocated it would mean that you would line up the two sprockets in a different position . This timing mark would be the only difference in the sprocket in 1955, so it would be possible to use the other sprocket in the 1955 position - this would explain the deletion of the 1955 part number in the '60's [I'm guessing here].
All the best,
Phil

[robert mooney]

I think alot of items need to be gone over before a focus on a 55 cad slight cam time change,probably for the head-push rod to piston in 55 nayway,,not for power,,,,,,it sounds to me like a vacume leak of sorts,vac advance mech ??or the intake/carb/correct carb to vac mech,,,...a diff.in some timing on the engine should be able to be worked out in a adj.tune/ign time advance...what cam is in it? who knows,but this shouldnt keep the mill form moving...id be first on the vacume end of this one...

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Thanks Robert, you may be on to something as I reset the timing as per the manual , vaccuum advance disconnected, tube plugged.When I reconnected the advance it moved the timing out at 400rpm [idle in drive], I don't think it should kick in until the revs go up. I haven't driven it for a while now as I have power steering problems ! and it is winter . I did put a vaccuum gauge on it and it is steady at 21 at fast idle [ie in nuetral], the engine is only just about run in and the vaccuum readings were really low before running in [as I posted on this forum at the time]. The camshaft is new from Kanter and should be standard 54 as when you order from them you have to fill out a detailed order form.
Thanks,
Phil

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Hi everybody, after parking my Coupe DeVille up for months [I was working on my house] I decided to have a go at timing my engine using a vaccuum gauge. I set it up to run at 21 inches [correct for this part of the world] and the increase in power is amazing. I have yet to give it a really good test run, as I only went to fill her up a couple of miles away. One thing I did notice is that with a timing light hooked up the timing mark is way off the pointer now. Could this mean that my suspicions about the timing gear being wrongly assembled [or from a 55] could be correct?
Can any of you shed any light on this ?
Thanks,
Phil

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Phil,
Not to question the technique you are using, but are you sure that the timing light  lead is reading the # 1 sparkplug, and not #2.  If in doubt, the # 1 cylinder is the one that is furthest towards the front of the car. Yes there is a difference.
Just a thought.
Greg

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Hi Greg, thanks for the quick response. I had the timing light on No. 1 [left front] cylinder and checked it on No. 6. I have a lot of mechanical experience and have owned 50's Cadillacs , a 58 Buick and various 50's British cars, yet I have been really foxed with a few problems on this car since I restored it - most annoyingly the fully rebuilt engine and the power steering.
Phil

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Don't forget that all base Timing is to be done with the Vacuum to the Vacuum Advance on the Distributor off and plugged.

When you connect the Vacuum back up, you will see the timing light suddenly jump up to around 24 degrees, but please don't quote me on that, but it does jump right up.

Bruce.

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Thanks Bruce, I had all the vacuum lines plugged including the vacuum advance. I plugged the vacuum gauge into the power brake line. I had the vacuum gauge, the timing light and a tach/dwell meter all hooked up at the same time. The timing mark is now way out of line with the pointer, but runs beautifully. It now has lots of power instead of being gutless and it runs a lot cooler- it was a hot day here yesterday [a rare thing , I know !] and I left it idling for ages and it didn't goabove the centre on the temp. gauge, even after a run.
I suppose what I am concerned about is whether the timing chain/cam gear are correctly installed , or have Kanter given me the wrong cam or does modern unleaded petrol really make that much of a difference to the timing.
Phil   

[Otto Skorzeny]

unleaded makes no difference at all in the timing. Just use the highest octane you can purchase. I use 93 octane unleaded in my '56 and it runs fine with no need to retard the timing from spec.