Goodbye Pontiac!

[Glen]

Yes, and I wonder why there still is Chevy Trucks and GMC?

Following their same philosophy of getting rid of Oldsmobile and Pontiac, one of these should definitely be cut...and soon!

I would think GM would keep Chevy trucks but have them build only trucks like pickups and the Blazer, while GMC would build only commercial trucks like 5 ton flat beds and semi tractors. 

Seems logical to me anyway. 

Glen

[wrefakis]

in 1970,the year I became involved in the auto industry,the 5 big cars from GM had the following engines,buick 455,pontiac 455,chev 454,cad 472,olds 455. 
All 5 were different engines,the 70 cadi had a AA turbo 400 6 clutch trans,and brand new exclusive rear end. 
By the mid 70's GM was in deep trouble for buicks with chevy engines,hence the dawn of the content label for component origin. 
Late 70's-80 Cadillacs with olds 350 die-sell,4.1 V6,and so-on. 
Mid 80's the ht4100 Tin-Man,at major auctions on a one year old car,they were as-is for engine noise,as they all knocked! 
BY this time all the GM brands shared platforms and engines to the point of a stick on plastic badge being the only difference in the vehicle,(gmc yukon-Chev suburban) 
Imagine my surprise when my 23k mile one year old 90 brougham needed a rear end(have yet to find a 70 with a bad one)and cadillac sent me to chevrolet"it's a corporate rear) 
GM brought about the demise of these brands on their own,I own a 99 Z-28 bought new,had to replace the needle bearings in the roller rockers at 20k,my expense,as per service bulletin,my 06 buick rainier at 1k miles started knocking on start up(they all do that-GM rep),and all thru my career,I refused to become an import guy,cost myself tons of money,and endured all these junk cars,only to see the gov hand our industry to Fiat! 
Fiat,who has built junk that GM at its worst couldn't build!! 
 
Final rant,your "domestic car" like my 05 lincoln town car,yes 130k miles 1 set of tires and brakes,that's it,is in fact a "foreign car"(built in canada)as are many GM products produced in mexico,check your "content label" 

[Guidematic]

Interesting thread here.

As far as the Chevrolet content in Pontiacs, that was pretty common here in Canada. All of our Pontiacs were quite differant than the US models. That was a function of our market size. We are about 10-15% of the US market.

Up until the Auto pact of 1964, we had strict import tariffs on any US car, and it did not make economic sense to build another unique car here to offer another brand. So, Pontiacs became a mish mash of Chevrolet and Pontiac. Chevrolet frames and drivelines, Pontiac sheet metal and a differant model names. That included som unique trim and interiors. Pontiacs became the #1 seller in our market for many years.

Since Australia was part of the commonwealth, Canadian cars were exported there in CKD form and assembled using some domestic content.

Also, you may find that there are a number of "conspiracy theorists" here, but either do not post so-called politically incorrect content, or just lurk. In this world of homogenised news content that is blasted on us by the mass media so many are very ignorant to the real goings on in this world.

GM has been beaten and flogged by the very government that is poised to take them over as we speak. Also, the UAW is more singularly responsible for the downfall of our industry than anyone. One thing a bankruptcy would do is allow GM to rewrite any labour contracts, effectively castrating the UAW once and for all.

Mike

[David #19063]

I would think GM would keep Chevy trucks but have them build only trucks like pickups and the Blazer, while GMC would build only commercial trucks like 5 ton flat beds and semi tractors. 

Seems logical to me anyway. 

Glen

Yes, Glen, that makes a lot of sense. 

[Wynn Moore]

Disappearing Cars

In a move largely seen as giving in to Washington, General Motors recently closed it High Performance Vehicles division. The HPV team was largely responsible for GM's most exciting cars including the Cadillac CTS-V and the Chevrolet Corvette ZR1.

Bureaucrats have little use for performance-oriented V-8 powered cars, so don't expect cars like the Chevy Corvette, Dodge Viper, Chevrolet Camaro SS, or Dodge Challenger R/T to survive long term. Their survival is no longer tied to customer demand, but to the demands of the government that now controls the product portfolios and development dollars at GM and Chrysler. Recently, GM announced it was killing its Pontiac brand, a concept that seemed to define performance all by itself some decades ago. Now that brand is gone.

[Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397]

in 1970,the year I became involved in the auto industry,the 5 big cars from GM had the following engines,buick 455,pontiac 455,chev 454,cad 472,olds 455. 
All 5 were different engines

And in 1970 and for several years thereafter, every GM division except Cadillac made 350 cubic inch V-8's and every one of them was different. This led to the infamous "Chevmobile" or "Oldsmolet" episode of 1977 when most of the 350's in the Delta 88's were the Chevrolet engine since the Cutlass was selling so well that Oldsmobile couldn't produce enough of their own 350 to cover both lines.  For a few years after that, each window sticker had a statement as to the source of the engine in the GM vehicle.   I still have the one from my '79 260 V-8 Cutlass:  "This vehicle is equipped with a General Motors engine manufactured in a General Motors plant operated by Oldsmobile, Lansing, MI."  The one for the Seville of that era said that the engine was assembled in a plant operated by Cadillac using an engine block sourced from Oldsmobile (which would have worked for the '34-'36 La Salles, too). Original owners of '77 350 Delta 88's had a choice of exchanging their car for a Delta 88 with the Olds 403 or getting an extended engine warranty, a check for $250.00 (I think), and a sticker for the air cleaner stating that it was a Chevrolet engine.

[Whit Otis, 1188]

As a holder of GM bonds, I take great offense at the remarks of late by our erstwhile president who likes to blame everything on the business guys and wall street.... this is amazing.  As an industrial sales rep in the late 70's and early 80's I can tell you who ruined industrial manufacturing in the US and drove it overseas.  It was plant sabotage pure and simple.  When I called on many large plants it was unbelieveable the things the unions did and management could do nothing about it.  Now, the bond holders (honest folks who loaned these companies money for an interest payment) are vilified by a bunch of people in total sympathy with the union thugs...... don't misunderstand me, the average union member who goes to work isn't the thug, he/she is just mislead by their own leadership.

[Wynn Moore]

As a holder of GM bonds, I take great offense at the remarks of late by our erstwhile president who likes to blame everything on the business guys and wall street.... this is amazing. 

Welcome to the Republican party.

[Jim Salmi #21340]

Welcome to the Republican party.

Without getting too political, I doubt that McCain or the Repubs would be much better on this subject.  W. started us down the bailout road, and all politicians want to get reelcted by promising to rob Peter to pay Paul in the hopes of getting Paul's vote, and maybe even Peter's too, if he's not paying attention.

[Wynn Moore]

Without getting too political, I doubt that McCain or the Repubs would be much better on this subject.  W. started us down the bailout road, and all politicians want to get reelcted by promising to rob Peter to pay Paul in the hopes of getting Paul's vote, and maybe even Peter's too, if he's not paying attention.

Also not trying to be political, quite possibly McCain would have done the same as Obama, but I don't think he would have gotten as involved with GM as Obama did and have the CEO fired.  Lets also keep in mind that now that the situation with Chrysler, most likely means that all the monies given to them has been squandered and most likely will not be recovered by the taxpayers, and most likely their cars in the future will be designed by the Sierra Club.

Again, not being political, just stating opinions of mine with no editorial comments.

[Jim Salmi #21340]

I agree that the money is most likely squandered.  The same thing will undoubtedly happen with GM.  These two companies will end up as permanent line items on the federal budget (like Amtrak and farm subsidies).  The industrial midwest will become a kind of theme park like the British royalty. 

The next question is how long will it be before Ford has its snout in the public trough.  They have plenty of cash right now, but what is the burn rate? 

The greens have wanted to kill the American love affair with the private automobile for a long time.  It look like they have finally found the vehicle (pun intended) to do it. 

[Jim Salmi #21340]

One bright spot:

If the cars are designed by the Sierra Club, maybe that means the Cadillac crest will get the ducks back

[Wynn Moore]

I agree that the money is most likely squandered.  The same thing will undoubtedly happen with GM.  These two companies will end up as permanent line items on the federal budget (like Amtrak and farm subsidies).  The industrial midwest will become a kind of theme park like the British royalty. 

Interesting scenario.  If the automobile industry in the country is going to die as we know it now, its going to be a slow death, and they are going out kicking and screaming!  Why?  No other country in the world has such a love affair of the automobile as we Americans, and Americans are not going to put up with government [totally] run car companies!

The next question is how long will it be before Ford has its snout in the public trough.  They have plenty of cash right now, but what is the burn rate?

Hopefully this will be a wake up call for Ford and the American people.  For Ford to keep producing quality cars at reasonable prices that Americans will want to buy, and for Americans to buy them! 

The greens have wanted to kill the American love affair with the private automobile for a long time.  It look like they have finally found the vehicle (pun intended) to do it. 

.......and we have no one to blame but ourselves.

[Wynn Moore]

One bright spot:

If the cars are designed by the Sierra Club, maybe that means the Cadillac crest will get the ducks back

......and animal names instead of Star Wars designations.

-Cougar
-Mustang
-Pinto
-Road Runner

[Jim Salmi #21340]

.......or even good place names, like:

Eldorado
Seville
Calais
Fairlane
Monterey
Sun Valley
Versailles
Park Avenue
New Yorker
Cordoba (with the fine Corinthian leather, of course)

We could go on and on

The names today sound like something you had to memorize for a high school math test.  No wonder there's no romance in the new cars today.  If they can't even come up with good names, what hope is there?  It's all this "world car" crapadoodle.  And don't even get me started on how all the controls have pictures or icons nstead of words!!

[Rich S]

What's the Chrysler bankruptcy mean for GM? Probably, it's a preview of what's to come. News sources report the "re-emerged Chrysler" will be making "greener" cars. They report the small car technology from Fiat should be hitting showrooms in eighteen months, when "there will be an increased demand for small cars." How can they predict this? Government officials involved are planning a significant policy that will include a substantial Federal tax on gasoline! Here's a link, to a typical article:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/finance/20090428/US.Chrysler/

Losing Pontiac, Saturn and Hummer brands from GM, the bankruptcy of Chrysler. . . indications of the further decline of the American standards of life--smaller cars, more hybrids--those will become the mainstream "norm." Cars continue becoming more and more like an appliance, and I guess the classics we love will be relegated to museums! You may have hit on it when you observed the "greenies" have wanted to kill the American love-affair with the private automobile for some time. 

[EdDougher]

Lest we forget, GM divisions have been sharing parts for decades, even during the "golden age".  The '59 Cadillac was designed around the Buick door when it was mandated they use that component.  Any manufacturer does that.  The Acura Integra was built on a Civic platform, for example.

And consider Group Technology, a discipline which allows a manufacturer to reuse both tool and part designs for new applications rather than reinventing the wheel over and over again.

As I see it, the challenge facing GM is this:  The last time I bought an American car brand new, it had nine miles showing on the odometer.  I didn't even make it home from the dealership before the defective master cylinder let the brake pedal go right to the floor.  And things only got worse from there.  A year later, I dumped it and bought my first Japanese car.  I haven't looked back.

The last new car my wife and I bought is her 2007 Hyundai Elantra.  It's comfortable, more refined than some of the Mazdas I've owned, handles well even though it has a cushy ride, gets great gas mileage, has six airbags, power assisted locks, windows, cruise, etc., a killer stereo system with XM radio, and it was affordable.  Best of all, in 2 years and 20,000 miles of driving, we haven't had to go back with a single defect.  Not one.  Nada.  Oh, and the manufacturer warrants it for 10 years or 100,000 miles.

It's going to be a very tough sell to get customers like us to come back to brands which have let us down in the past.  I fear that GM's window of opportunity may have closed.

And I can't imagine that Obama's socialist takeover of the industry and anticipated turning over the reins to the UAW is going to help matters.

[RobW]

Ed
When and what was that car that didn't make it home?

[Wynn Moore]

Lest we forget, GM divisions have been sharing parts for decades, even during the "golden age".  The '59 Cadillac was designed around the Buick door when it was mandated they use that component.  Any manufacturer does that.  The Acura Integra was built on a Civic platform, for example.

Yes shared many of the same parts, but each division had their own distinctive look and style, and after all, isn't that what really sold cars?

As I see it, the challenge facing GM is this:  The last time I bought an American car brand new, it had nine miles showing on the odometer.  I didn't even make it home from the dealership before the defective master cylinder let the brake pedal go right to the floor.  And things only got worse from there.  A year later, I dumped it and bought my first Japanese car.  I haven't looked back.

What year was that?

It's going to be a very tough sell to get customers like us to come back to brands which have let us down in the past.  I fear that GM's window of opportunity may have closed.

I think you are stating the obvious.  I have been preaching for year, that by buying in the imports we were committing financial suicide, and unfortunately I was right.  Oh yes I have been buying cars for 43 years at the rate of at least one every 2 years, and all have been GM products.

And I can't imagine that Obama's socialist takeover of the industry and anticipated turning over the reins to the UAW is going to help matters.

Now try to convince the rest of boobis America.

[Jim Salmi #21340]

I think the majority of Americans already know it.  But, since when does public opinion count for that much?

I share Ed's pessimism.  Although the American products are vastly improved, the competition is not a stationary target, either.  He had bad luck with his American product and good luck with the replacement Hyundai.  Why should he go back?  Detroit treated its customers shamefully for too many years and now the chickens have come home to roost.  Even Lee Iacocca said that an automobile is too big an investment to expect the disappointed customer to give you a second chance.  Personally, if I were to be in the market for a new car, I wouldn't buy anything brand new.  Cars a few years old still have so much life left in them (assumning reasonable care by the previous owner).  The new car smell is just too expensive a brand of perfume.