My father and I went for a drive today, and when we returned, noticed what appears to be crack in the outer edge of the rim. It appears to be about 8 inches long and in the first rib on the outer edge where the bead sits. I believe it is much too deep to be just chrome flacking off. My question is can this be welded, or does anyone know if there is a company that can restore it. I'm sure finding a single wheel would be near impossible. Please let me know your thoughts, as my father's birthday is coming up and this would be perfect to get this taken care of for him. Bill Evans
Post a photo, finding a replacement wheel is possible but the years matter, so what year is the of your car?
My fathers car is a 1957, but he bought the rims used, so it is unknown what year they are from. The first 2 pictures hopefully show the crack. I put marker on both ends of the crack for identification and to see if it is going to spread. The third picture is not the one with a crack but hopefully can help identify the year. Please let me know if more pictures would help. Bill Evans
If the wheel is made of aluminum, it's possible it can be welded, but I would be very cautious about who does it and how.
If it's magnesium like some wheels were in the 60's and 70's, then no, I don't believe it's possible. Magnesium will burn extremely hot, which is why it's not used anymore.
I've had a couple of aluminum wheels repaired, but they only had a very small problem that did not affect the bead area, they were just a cosmetic issue.
Rick
Bill, that looks like a really bad crack. It was probably done while a tire was being removed or installed on an old style tire machine.
To properly repair something like this, the crack must be ground out completely and then welded back up slowly to avoid any warpage in the wheel. If it were mine, I would be looking for another rather than trying to fix that.
I have seen Aluminium wheels with far more damage that that repaired. It all depends on the cost, and availability of a replacement.
Proper Aluminium welding procedures can do beautiful things in the hands of an experienced welder.
I agree with the Richard that the mounting of the tyre, or possibly the demounting of the previous tyre could have been the start of the crack.
Bruce. >:D
I'm not familiar with these wheels, but from what I've read from other members here, as I understand it, there should be a number cast into the back of the wheel that will identify it if it's actually a Cadillac produced wheel.
Those familiar with this type of wheel can probably pin down exactly what it's off of if you can find the number on it.
As to how the damage occurred, from the appearance it doesn't look like any kind of impact damage because it's not deformed in any way. The crack looks like it was from pressure being applied to the lip from a mount or dismount on an older tire machine, like a Coats 20/20 or similar. These work just fine on a steel wheel, but the stress it can put on an aluminum wheel can cause damage.
Aluminum wheels are one reason why the industry developed the newer design machines that grip the wheel around the rim to help reduce the possibility of damage. The old machines used the hole in the center of the wheel to hold it as an arm applied pressure to the tire next to the bead. If it hits the edge of the wheel and the operator does not notice it, that could cause the issue you have now.
I've got an old Coats machine that I use for all my tire needs, but I'm aware of it's limitations and I'd never put an aluminum wheel on it for just this reason.
Since that wheel is going to be hard to find, you may be better off having it repaired. Just be sure that you get a qualified welder for the job.
I would check with your local tire dealers that also sell wheels and ask who does this type of repair in your area. Check with several of them to see if anyone is mentioned more than once.
Also know that it's going to be expensive. The wheel will have to be machined again to make it true, and probably would have to be balanced as well.
Then there's the matter of appearance once it's repaired. Is it chromed, or polished? Just another step necessary to finish it.
Good luck in your search for either someone to fix it or another wheel altogether.
Rick
Most probably the wheel is a 1955 or early 56 when the wheel was really a composite affair: the tire rested on the aluminum part in the front and the rear of the tire was on a steel rim. The later wheel had a complete rim riveted on the aluminum hub.
Sorry if my explanation is hard to understand; my English is limited and I have no picture to explain better.
When I bought my '56 Biarritz, the car had steel wheel; the seller sent me 5 Sabre wheels later; one of those was an early wheel.
Just adding a data point here, back in the early 70's when my high mileage '56 sdv was my daily driver, BOTH front steel wheel rims cracked at the same time! I had not hit anything hard, and was always careful with the car, as I was commuting 90miles a day. The repair shop said, " High mileage metal fatique." What do you think? James
The 55 & 56 wheels don't fit the 57, so if you have a 57 it has the proper wheels. One caveat is if spacers are used on 55/56 versions, they can be used on the 57.
The wheels are out there. I have some Brougham Turbine wheels, but no sabres. I do have 57/58 Sabre wheel centers.
Gentlemen, thank you for the reply. Am I able to determine the year or design of the rim buy the following numbers: 41098, 666620, AG551, or will the tire need to be removed from the rim? Any idea where I can find one, other than just posting a wanted add? Feel free to message me with repair recommendations or any leads. Thank you Bill Evans.
I meant to post this link before, forgot. The Wheels are out there.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/285793054058?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D777008%26algo%3DPERSONAL.TOPIC%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20230811123856%26meid%3D87e651be70b1487e8bd067c93d283c81%26pid%3D101770%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26itm%3D285793054058%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4375194%26algv%3DRecentlyViewedItemsV2%26brand%3DKelsey-Hayes&_trksid=p4375194.c101770.m146925&_trkparms=parentrq%3A00e0deb018f0adba492d8d5bfffe88a4%7Cpageci%3A638f34f6-ffe4-11ee-8858-2e707e6d5701%7Ciid%3A1%7Cvlpname%3Avlp_homepage
Quote from: Gary Evans on April 21, 2024, 08:51:00 AMGentlemen, thank you for the reply. Am I able to determine the year or design of the rim buy the following numbers: 41098, 666620, AG551, or will the tire need to be removed from the rim? Any idea where I can find one, other than just posting a wanted add? Feel free to message me privately at bevans67@hotmail with repair recommendations or any leads. Thank you Bill Evans.
Hello Gary. That number 41098 you posted denotes chrome sabres for 1957 - 1958 Cadillac. I would search Ebay or try contacting All Cads or Cadillac Parts & Restoration, among others, to locate a replacement rim. 41098 rims are more difficult to find than the earlier Sabres, and they also have a different backset to fit properly over the front drums. So stick with 41098. Finding a single for sale is doable, but a bigger issue may end up being the finish. A replacement rim's state of chrome appearance may not match what is on the car and stick out like a sore thumb. There are restoration services available but they are costly to do properly. Chances are you could find an entire set for sale at a cost far less than the restoration bill. Then you would be stuck with 4 extra rims, but nice to have extras. Clay/Lexi
Edit: I do have one spare chrome Sabre that I would sell. I will have to check and see what number is on it, and follow up.
Lexi, Please let me know, I am very interested!
Quote from: Gary Evans on April 21, 2024, 10:21:10 AMLexi, Please let me know, I am very interested!
It is still noted in my parts list, but I did not quote the number. Shame on me. So I will have to put eyes on it when at my storage unit. Will try to get there today or tomorrow and follow up on this site. Clay/Lexi
Lexi,
That sounds fantastic! We do not need one that is concourse, it will be on the rear and the car is a driver. Please let us know.
If it helps, if memory serves, the older style (1955/56) wheels will fit on the later (57 up) REAR only.
it was the later (57 up) front brake drums that were the fitting issue.
It's hard to tell from a picture, but could the issue be a chrome delaminating
Vs structural?
Quote from: Gary Evans on April 21, 2024, 12:05:56 PMLexi,
That sounds fantastic! We do not need one that is concourse, it will be on the rear and the car is a driver. Please let us know.
Well that is good as it was not show chrome quality, going on memory. Plus someone was careless painting and there was a lot of red overspray on it that would have to be cleaned off. I removed most of it off, but some remains. There was also some pitting but not awful, but far from perfect, just #3 driver quality. Will check for cracks when I locate it. No wheel disc or emblem plate, just the sabre rim. If it works for you, $100 USD, plus shipping. Will also have to take to a garage to have the tire removed, so that cost as well. Had used this wheel as a "roller". But let's see what number is on it. See Link's post below as well. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: V63 on April 21, 2024, 12:12:16 PMIf it helps, if memory serves, the older style (1955/56) wheels will fit on the later (57 up) REAR only.
it was the later (57 up) front brake drums that were the fitting issue.
It's hard to tell from a picture, but could the issue be a chrome delaminating
Vs structural?
Hey V63, to the best of my knowledge you are correct. The '55 and '56 Sabres will fit his '57, but on the rear wheels only unless a spacer is used on the front wheels OR the inside of the Sabre is machined for clearance, (not recommended). I have seen that type of crack on other Sabres and my experience is that it has always been a crack when in that same location. But as you said, tough to say for sure in the photo. But good points. I think it was Rick (Cad-maniac) who mentioned the tire changer machines perhaps doing that back in the day. Again, interesting comments as always from the Cad-Maniac. Clay/Lexi
I pulled that wheel and it has a different number on it. It is a '56 Kelsey Hayes number. As far as I know it will fit your rear wheels but not the front. I stand to be corrected, but I also think the outer aluminum clad portion is the same patern and style of the '57. Just won't fit your front wheels. If you bought it, keep the one with the crack as a spare in the trunk. If it were me I would first spend some time looking for a replacement with your number. I would prefer to have all the same even if it is just for tire rotation consideration. Does not appear to have any cracks or structural flaws, just oxidation and pitting on the portion of the wheel near the hub. Clay/Lexi
Lexi, let me ponder a bit and see what is available, if anything. It appears through looking at other photos of the 57 rim that the tire attaches to the inner steel rim. Do you and everyone think it would be ok to drive on until another is purchased?
I found several postings on the Detroit-area Facebook Marketplace:
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/112423512103789/search?query=Sabre%20wheels
Quote from: Gary Evans on April 22, 2024, 08:27:22 AMLexi, let me ponder a bit and see what is available, if anything. It appears through looking at other photos of the 57 rim that the tire attaches to the inner steel rim. Do you and everyone think it would be ok to drive on until another is purchased?
That is sound reasoning. I would spend time looking for the proper rim. Also, based on the appearance of yours, the one I have appears not as pristine-so not a good match. Finding one of these rims as a single and in condition that is consistent with yours will take some time. Not sure about the safety aspect of driving yours. Perhaps a solid tire shop could provide an opinion once they have physically inspected it. Clay/Lexi
Almost forgot to answer your other question, but I beleive the '57 Sabre does have the tire seat on the steel portion of the rim. The first Sabres in 1955 used a different means of production and assembly. There were issues experienced by some owners. Long story short, in 1956 Cadillac went to the so-called "clad" design where the outer aluminum Sabre was clad to an inner steel rim. I have not read that changed in 1957*, as the clad design proved to work well. As a result, the crack in your outer aluminum shell is probably not much if any of a factor, but I cannot guarantee that. Best to have a competant tire shop examine. Clay/Lexi
*Edit: Though as previously noted a '56 Sabre will not fit over the front drums of a '57. So that design element did change. Somewhere I have exploded views of these rims and post images if it helps.
Bill,
Judging from the picture, the length of that crack looks to be at least 8 inches long. If that's the case I would not use it until it's repaired or replaced. The danger is that it still has pressure on it from the tires air pressure, and each time that section is on the ground the weight of the car adds more pressure. This can possibly cause the crack to expand, and much more and it's going to break with disastrous results.
Remember that lip is what keeps the tire on the wheel. And also, if the tire bead has any imperfections along the inside, or bottom edge, air that can get past that portion is usually stopped by the sides of the bead, provided the wheel is good. The air can escape through the crack if the bead should leak, and if that happens while you are driving,.....
Rick
Edit: I'm basing this on the wheel being all aluminum. If it's designed like Clay has mentioned, then this is less likely. Hope this helps.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on April 22, 2024, 10:35:42 AMEdit: I'm basing this on the wheel being all aluminum. If it's designed like Clay has mentioned, then this is less likely. Hope this helps.
I am inclined to agree, however, the '56 rim/wheel is not all aluminum though as Cad-maniac surmised. In '56 GM used a steel rim which I believe on it's own you could theoretcially mount a tubeless tire to. Rather than use hubcaps, the Sabre rim employed an added aluminum outer decorative shell to dress up the wheel. I am not sure whether it was also intended to be functional at all, and might be there just for looks. If...if... it provides additional stability to repel the force of an inflated tire, then continued driving could eventually end with disasterous results as Rick noted, should the inner steel rim be lighter in duty than regular steel '56 rims. Time permitting I could try to mic my spare steel '56 rims and compare to a Sabre from that same year. If the same, it would appear that the "clad style" '56 Sabre rim is more for looks, though I would add that it may further bolster the steel rim inside. But if these steel inner rims are consistent with non Sabre steel '56 rims, there should in theory be no problems. The issue with '55 Sabres is half of them internally were aluminum and half steel-the so-called "split rim" design. Probably not as strong which may explain why my research indicated that there were 2 types of '55 Sabres, each having a different number of internal rivets, (air leak problems were noted early on). Probably too much "twist" and other stress that apparently caused air leaks. Yes, I know others have not had problems with their '55 split rim style wheels, (maybe theirs were the later type-different rivet count?) but others not so fortunate. When doing my research I found no data on "2 types of '55 rims". Probably a secret kept by Cadillac to protect their brand. Probably why in '55 NO Sabres were offered for Series 75 cars, but in '56 they were. Again, my guess is that they were made stronger, with 75s having their own part number. That said, still best to have a tire expert inspect. See attached images of a 1956 Sabre rim assembled and apart. If Gary elects to purchase a '56 chrome Sabre or a '55, (same fitment over the drums), I would avoid buying a '55 for the reasons provided. Hope all this makes sense. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on April 22, 2024, 12:31:34 PMThe issue with '55 Sabres is half of them internally were aluminum and half steel-the so-called "split rim" design. Probably not as strong which probably explains why my research indicates that there were 2 types of '55 Sabres, each having a different number of internal rivets
It's what I tried to explain in my previous message. Obviously, you can explain facts better than me!
Bill,
Since the wheel is made in 2 pieces as Clay has shown, the repair can still be difficult. It all depends on how you want it done.
It can be ground out and welded, then machined, but if it's been chromed from the factory, it may have to be taken apart in order to be re-chromed.
If it's just highly polished, then no, it wouldn't need to be taken apart.
Just something to consider if you decide to get it fixed.
Rick
Quote from: Roger Zimmermann on April 22, 2024, 12:47:20 PMIt's what I tried to explain in my previous message. Obviously, you can explain facts better than me!
But you are at least bilingual Roger. I can only communicate in English, though the wife says I am bilingual as I speak both English and profanity, (sometimes). :) Clay/Lexi
Thank you gentleman for taking the time to help me understand the situation. I think I'll head over to the wanted section, place an add, and see what if anything is available. I sill may take lexi up on his generous offer, but would like to have 4 matching. Bill Evans
Also, if anyone has a single 41098, please message me.
Quote from: Gary Evans on April 22, 2024, 06:36:22 PMThank you gentleman for taking the time to help me understand the situation. I think I'll head over to the wanted section, place an add, and see what if anything is available. I sill may take lexi up on his generous offer, but would like to have 4 matching. Bill Evans
Also, if anyone has a single 41098, please privately email at bevans67@hotmail.
Hello Gary. Not sure how versed you are in this CLC Forum, but as of May 1st outsiders (non-CLC members) will be restricted from posting on this site, but you will still be able to read it. Don't see a CLC # beside your name. So presumeably if your ad is running at that time you will not be able to respond to those who may have a part for you, via a post in this Forum. Perhaps your father is a member? Think they are asking $25 for a yearly membership. If Dad and/or the family plans on keeping the car, you may want to consider joining. Another member recently said that this Forum is "The best tool in the toolchest". Clay/Lexi
Don't forget that posting your email address for all to see is asking for Spammers to contact you, as many have found out.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: Lexi on April 22, 2024, 04:49:22 PMI am bilingual as I speak both English and profanity, (sometimes). :) Clay/Lexi
Lol!! I gotta remember that one. My wife will get a kick out of it.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on April 22, 2024, 08:54:48 PMLol!! I gotta remember that one. My wife will get a kick out of it.
I can't take credit for that one. If memory serves, it was the Canadian Hockey great Gordie Howie (of the Detroit Red Wings), who was quoted as saying that. Not sure if he borrowed it from someone else. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Gary Evans on April 22, 2024, 06:36:22 PMThank you gentleman for taking the time to help me understand the situation. I think I'll head over to the wanted section, place an add, and see what if anything is available. I sill may take lexi up on his generous offer, but would like to have 4 matching. Bill Evans
Also, if anyone has a single 41098, please privately email at.....
Gary I wrote down your email in case you decide to delete it due to spammer idiots. In time they will be all over you like a cheap suit. Check the comments above posted by the Moderator. That nonsense is one of the main reasons for the CLC Forum restrictions that will be taking effect May 1st. Sad to say. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on April 22, 2024, 04:49:22 PMBut you are at least bilingual Roger. I can only communicate in English, though the wife says I am bilingual as I speak both English and profanity, (sometimes). :) Clay/Lexi
I can that too. And I can understand/speak German too!