Should the for sale and wanted sections be members only?

[tcom2027]

I agree with George and Gregory. Good points.



tony

[TJ Hopland]

My question is how are sellers going to let buyers contact them?  Right now all you have to do is register if you are not already a forum member then you can send a private message through the forum.  Now a buyer will have to first become a CLC member then register so they can send you a message about your item they want to buy?

Or are sellers just going to put an email address in the ad?

[Bryan J Moran]

If you include your email then you will likely get fraud.  So no, I expect this becomes a member to member forum using PM only.   

[TJ Hopland]

If you include your email then you will likely get fraud.  So no, I expect this becomes a member to member forum using PM only.   

That's why I was asking the question, if is more or less going to be member to member why even have it viewable to tempt the bad people?   

Lets say someone was just doing an internet search and it took them to the site where someone is selling what they want.  Now what?  There is no contact info in the ad what do they do?  Are we gonna have to plaster the whole thing about if you want to join the forum you have to join the club first all over the place to the point where its everywhere and no one reads it?  And what percentage of people will actually join more or less to get one item?  Vs the people that will think its stupid that 'we' list things for sale that basically can't be bought?

[MultipleCaddies]

So here's a thought. To register as a member in good standing, you must show proof that you actually own a Cadillac. You have to take a picture of yourself standing next to your car and show proof of ownership, IE: a title or registration. This must be done on the day that you apply for membership and to prove that you need the newspaper from that day showing the date in the same picture.
Proof positive that you are who you say you are and proof that you actually own a Cadillac and can be a member of this forum.
This proof will only be viewed by the administration members in charge of approving such applications.
 It's like the requirements necessary to register to vote or to get a driver's license.
I know that sounds extreme, but what the hell, if you are serious about this issue, this would definitely be a step in the right direction.

Rick

I can't think of a better way to discourage people from participating here than coming up with such absurd rules and requirements as this. I honestly can't comprehend how anyone thinks requirements like that would be a good idea.

[signart]

I can't think of a better way to discourage people from participating here than coming up with such absurd rules and requirements as this. I honestly can't comprehend how anyone thinks requirements like that would be a good idea.

I could be wrong, but I believe this is an attempt at sarcasm. I can't help but think some here would adhere to this concept as being ideal.

[MultipleCaddies]

I could be wrong, but I believe this is an attempt at sarcasm. I can't help but think some here would adhere to this concept as being ideal.

Sarcasm on my part, or the poster I quoted? I'm being 100% serious.

[MultipleCaddies]

If you include your email then you will likely get fraud.  So no, I expect this becomes a member to member forum using PM only.   

So if a random person is googling around looking for some part for their Cadillac, and they come across someone selling one on this forum. They have no way to contact the seller, then discover they have to pay $25 to register, just to even ask the seller if it's still available.. and if it's not they've just spent $25 for nothing. Yes, it is for nothing if they weren't already a participant here and had no plans to be. Most people are not going to make the choice to spend the money to register in that circumstance. Again, all this will do is drive potential new participants away.

[signart]

Sarcasm on my part, or the poster I quoted? I'm being 100% serious.

I hope the OP's part.

[MultipleCaddies]

"On the other hand - the main purpose for the change is enticement of non members to become members, so they can post on the forum. Hopefully to increase membership, which is important these days as all clubs are in free fall membership wise."

The utter lack of logic here is astounding. Forcing people to pay to use forums will NOT encourage people to join car clubs that are already declining. It's truly staggering that anyone would think this makes any sense.

The very same people who constantly rant about this hobby declining and how young people don't seem to be interested are the very same people who put up absurd barriers to entry. Your very own efforts are part of the reason for the decline in interest. Making everything more expensive from the outset will always DISCOURAGE people from participating, not encourage them.

The old timers with money and who already own cars aren't the ones we need to encourage to join. It's the young new guy who just bought a car or is thinking about buying a car that you need to participate if you want to keep things going. You aren't going to get that person to participate with a paywall being the very first step in the process. It's amazing that so many people don't see that.

[leedlast]

I wholeheartedly support the requirement to be a CLC member in order to view the ads.  Recently, on another car forum that allows anyone to join, I replied to an ad saying "PM sent." Instantly, I recieved a Private Message stating that the item was available and ready to ship as soon as I sent payment via Paypal.   Meanwhile, the real person who had posted the item esnt me a PM stating that someone elso had beat me to it. Smelling a rat, I asked him if he had sent me a PM stating it was available and ready to ship.  He told that he had not sent the other PM.  Somehow, the scammer had managed to impersonate the real seller in order to send me a PM.

Although prohobiting non-members from posting, it hopefully will make it more difficult.

On another club (PCA.org) forum that requires club membership in order to reply, the scam activity seems very low.  Non-members can read the ad, but cannot do much else. Yes, they could pay the $46 dues and become members in order to reply.  Don't know how many do.

Buyer beware.  The scammers are everywhere.

Best regards,

Ed Leed

[Cadman-iac]

 Well this whole situation is because of the amount of spammers and derelict that have been defrauding members and non-members alike, usually related to the selling and purchasing of parts and vehicles advertised herein.
 If just the sections that relate to this were to be restricted, and by that I mean totally, because if they can see it, they can "F" with it.
 Make the rest of the forum free to all, but if you want to buy or sell something,  then you pay the fee. Any information contained here is kept between the paying members.
 Look at it as a  Costco membership, you want to shop, you gots to pay, simple as that.
 This way the remainder of the forum is still available to any and all who wish to participate.
 Unless the spammers and idiots begin to mess with it, then we'd have to look into restrictions here as well. This should keep most people happy, as you can't please everyone all the time.

Rick

[D. Mailan]

Well this whole situation is because of the amount of spammers and derelict that have been defrauding members and non-members alike, usually related to the selling and purchasing of parts and vehicles advertised herein.
 If just the sections that relate to this were to be restricted, and by that I mean totally, because if they can see it, they can "F" with it.
 Make the rest of the forum free to all, but if you want to buy or sell something,  then you pay the fee. Any information contained here is kept between the paying members.
 Look at it as a  Costco membership, you want to shop, you gots to pay, simple as that.
 This way the remainder of the forum is still available to any and all who wish to participate.
 Unless the spammers and idiots begin to mess with it, then we'd have to look into restrictions here as well. This should keep most people happy, as you can't please everyone all the time.

Rick

Rick,

100% agree with your idea!! That sounds like the perfect solution to the spamming and the issue of having a membership threshold.

It would be good to keep the conversational topics and technical/authenticity topics available to everyone just to keep activity on the forums and help out those seeking help with their Cadillac's. But when it comes to the For sale section, that is something that would be best kept for "members only" to prevent any spammers. Like you said, you can not please everyone all the time. But this way seems the best.

It is a terrific way to rectify this very controversial issue. I 100% support this.

Derick

[gkhashem]

Boy we must be gluttons for punishment. How long before the same nonsense banter on another thread makes it to this thread?

I would hope we can avoid this topic until the new policy has a chance to operate for awhile. Its not going to change in the short term.

[Cadman-iac]

It has been stated several times and several ways that our forums will become "Public Restricted" after May 1. That is, you can view the forums, including For Sale forums; however, if you want to join the forum and participate you will have to be a CLC member.  This is the plan adopted by the CLC Board of Directors at the Summer Grand Nationals in Albuquerque this past year and will be implemented after May 1.

For our non-CLC forum members, consider that posting to this forum is just one of many benefits of membership.  You get to attend Grand Nationals, go on National Driving Tours, join local regions, join model year specific Chapters, access to the International Director with over 5000 members, and of course receive the award winning monthly Self-Starter magazine. And yes, after May 1, interacting here on the CLC Forums will be a member only benefit.

Check out other benefits at benefits.cadillaclasalleclub.org.

I agree that the benefits of joining are numerous, and well worth the cost. But in my opinion, the issues with scammers and spammers are mainly in the sales forums. That's where they are targeting us all, members and non-members alike.
To prevent this, make these 4 forums members only accessible. (That's the parts for sale, cars for sale, parts wanted, and cars wanted). If you are looking at buying or selling a car or part, you join the club. This is exactly like a swap meet. To get into the swap meet you pay the entrance fee.
If you're not a member, you can't see these.
Yes, it's possible for a scammer to join, but they will be found out quickly enough and banned, losing their admission fees. A few times of this and they'll give up.

Because isn't this the main reason why all this has become an issue in the first place?

What have the spammers  and scammers done in the rest of the forums so far?
The last one I recall was the idiot that spewed Muslim BS for pages, but was quickly deleted by the moderators. I was the only one that posted there before it disappeared.
They are pretty easy to spot, it's the sales forums where they can reply to an individual and cause problems and are not found out until the scammed individual brings it to the attention of the moderators as was mentioned by another poster a little earlier.

I've said my peace,  I'll say no more.

Rick

[MultipleCaddies]

Well this whole situation is because of the amount of spammers and derelict that have been defrauding members and non-members alike, usually related to the selling and purchasing of parts and vehicles advertised herein.
 If just the sections that relate to this were to be restricted, and by that I mean totally, because if they can see it, they can "F" with it.
 Make the rest of the forum free to all, but if you want to buy or sell something,  then you pay the fee. Any information contained here is kept between the paying members.
 Look at it as a  Costco membership, you want to shop, you gots to pay, simple as that.
 This way the remainder of the forum is still available to any and all who wish to participate.
 Unless the spammers and idiots begin to mess with it, then we'd have to look into restrictions here as well. This should keep most people happy, as you can't please everyone all the time.

Rick

This is an excellent compromise, employed successfully by a wide variety of forums across the internet, car related or otherwise. Most people have no problem with such a policy, and rarely does this discourage legitimate users from joining forums.

[MultipleCaddies]

I agree that the benefits of joining are numerous, and well worth the cost. But in my opinion, the issues with scammers and spammers are mainly in the sales forums. That's where they are targeting us all, members and non-members alike.
To prevent this, make these 4 forums members only accessible. (That's the parts for sale, cars for sale, parts wanted, and cars wanted). If you are looking at buying or selling a car or part, you join the club. This is exactly like a swap meet. To get into the swap meet you pay the entrance fee.
If you're not a member, you can't see these.
Yes, it's possible for a scammer to join, but they will be found out quickly enough and banned, losing their admission fees. A few times of this and they'll give up.

Because isn't this the main reason why all this has become an issue in the first place?

What have the spammers  and scammers done in the rest of the forums so far?
The last one I recall was the idiot that spewed Muslim BS for pages, but was quickly deleted by the moderators. I was the only one that posted there before it disappeared.
They are pretty easy to spot, it's the sales forums where they can reply to an individual and cause problems and are not found out until the scammed individual brings it to the attention of the moderators as was mentioned by another poster a little earlier.

I've said my peace,  I'll say no more.

Rick

Excellent post. The only thing I'll add is that it is important to remember that such efforts will dramatically reduce scammers, but will not entirely eliminate them. Scammers often use stolen credit card info, thus they usually don't care at all about the cost. So it's important for people to remain vigilant and cautious even with such rules in place.

Efforts requiring definitively human interaction in addition will further reduce scammers. Perhaps a personalized question or two asked of new members in their approval process, that would be difficult or impossible for an AI bot to answer and very difficult for a Nigerian scammer to answer correctly. Many of these scumbags are using webcrawlers and AI to sign up accounts en masse, so they can have them ready as they use up old accounts to scam with. Requiring difficult to defeat human interaction will make it more difficult for them to defeat this.

[MultipleCaddies]

On the subject of avoiding scammers, the simplest and most effective thing I have ever done to completely eliminate scammers in my interactions is the absolute insistence on VERBAL communication as a first start to making a deal. Doesn't matter if I'm on craigslist or a forum, if a person is not willing to TALK on the phone to start things off, I do not waste my time with them. I also won't deal with anyone with a google voice phone number. Real phone numbers only, real verbal communication to start things off. Once I talk to someone and know they're real, if I'm doing a long distance deal I will make sure there is a text or email exchange between us to document it (so it's not just my word against their's if things go wrong), and I send/receive US Postal money orders ONLY for payment. One thing most people don't realize is that intentionally scamming someone where a USPS money order is involved constitutes mail fraud. Plus, both ends require a valid government issued ID to send/receive. It's traceable and trackable, and I have heard of very damn few scammers try to use them as part of their scams. They almost invariably want cashier's checks (or cheques), friends and family paypal and zelle, because once the money is sent, it is GONE and isn't coming back, period.

I occasionally have people balk at my requirements and I don't make deals with them as a result. That can be annoying at times, but it sure beats getting scammed. I've been an active craigslist user for 20+ years, and have bought/sold all manner of things via forums as well, and again have never been scammed.

The only time I can recall getting screwed was a deal on eBay where I sold a small part to someone many states away, shipped it with tracking and delivery confirmation, and a couple weeks after it showed that it was delivered, they filed a dispute with paypal saying they never received it. Despite my scanning the receipt and sending it to them, proving that I fulfilled my end of the bargain, paypal still ruled in their favor. I swore off their "service" and have never used them since, 14+ years later. Doing things my way, with no "buyer/seller protection" safety net but hard and fast rules of my own in place, I've never been scammed or screwed since. I would encourage everyone to at least employ the verbal communication rule with insistence on using a real phone number to start things off, as this will eliminate just about all scammers. How you choose to make payment is up to you, but remember that different methods have different levels of risk, so use your head and don't break your rules just to suit the demands of someone who suggests something sketchy. That great deal you don't want to pass up will sure become a bad deal real fast if someone screws you. Gotta keep that in mind.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Time for this thread to be locked.   Before it gets out of hand like previous threads.

The decision has been made at the Top level of the Club Board.

Bruce.