Hello
This is the time of year I change the oil and filter in my 70 Cadillac . I can find the PF -30 NOS probably 40 or 50 years old ( concerned about the rubber seal )or is the better decision to go with a newer Frame or Purolator. Or some other name brand . Keeping in mind I want what’s best for the car and a filter that will do the best job . Or am I over thinking the filter decision. I have been using Classic car motor oil for the past 15 years . I am very impressed with its ingredients.
Thanks Bill
I'd use a current Wix filter and not one 40 years old. Things inside that you can't see may be broken down and will be flushed through the system. Plus, those filters were prolly stored in an attic in Phoenix prior to being sold...
Just my $0.02.
Wix is my go to to and so far never had an issue with one which I can not say for pretty much all the other formerly good big brands. Napa Gold is made by Wix. May not be in stock at every store anymore since they have not fit a new car since the mid 70's but should be at the warehouse so you can have it next day. They were white forever but switched to black several years ago so if you get a white one its been on the shelf several years.
On a listing dated 1987, the oil filter for a 1970 Cadillac was the PF-24.
Firstly CAUTION. I have no trouble using old (New) oil filters, as some of my stock of them could be 30 years old, BUT, I know how mine are stored, but using one that is old, and of unknown storeage, that could be a problem.
I have a supply of PF25's, and one day I might buy a car that needs that filter.
Buying one from a dealer, one could also be buying one that has been on the shelf for many years.
Bruce. >:D
I thought PF-24 was always the one in this era. Anyone what the difference was between a PF-30 and 24? Was 30 maybe the Cadillac one but with the move to make GM stuff more standard they went to the PF-24 that fit all but Chev? The thread and the gasket must have been the same so what a little difference in height? Diameter? Micron size? Drain back valve? Maybe Cadillac and Buick added a drain back valve early because of their front mounted oil pumps having longer pickups?
Seems like on one of the Cadillac engine sites some people (I may have even been involved in the research) put together a list of at least a dozen filters that would thread onto the big Cad engines. A few were even common enough to find in stock at many stores. Swap people were always looking for different options due to clearance issues. I remember finding out there were only like 3 thread sizes for American cars and equipment and maybe 6 gasket sizes. From there you got 100 different filters in the size and filtering size and then somethings things like drain back valve.
And for Bruce the 25 was the Chev car engine filter. Trucks usually used a taller version the 35. It was interesting that as GM was trying to combine everything in the 70's there were little things like the oil filter where Chev was still different. Or medium things like the bell housings. Look at Ford who would maybe have a different oil pan year to year and model to model but only one oil filter, didn't matter if you had the 460 in a dump truck or a Pinto, FL1A. In the 80's especially with the cars you can see why there were more because they were trying to cram things in so sight so they had major clearance issues but in the RWD days things usually were not that tight.
A WIX or other good quality filter is just fine. As for that "Classic Car Motor Oil", that just diesel oil with a different sticker on it. It's the same viscosity and everything. All diesel oils have more additives than oils that are for modern gas engines.
Definitely Wix filters. They are still one of the best filters you can buy for the price. Frams are cheap garbage!!
I’ve also found that Purolators filters to also be very high quality especially if you can find the BOSS version which is the highest quality filter they have available and looks and feels superior to any Wix filter I’ve used. Next down the line is the Pur-One filter by Purolator as well which is a great quality sturdy filter for the money.
Champion filters at Pep Boys is another real nice quality filter.
But Wix is usually the default brand for a lot of people.
Been using AC Delco PF-24's for something like 40 years and have no complaint
Greg Surfas
I had an AC a while back that would not thread on. Didn't really look like anything was wrong with it or the threads on either end. I had got it from an indy owner operated parts store so brought it back and he too was curious so we went through all of that model he had in stock which was like a dozen and it looked like they were 3 completely different manufacturers and processes. He then started digging into other models and same thing except maybe even signs of more different types and processes. I did find some that fit. We were never sure what the issue was, it seemed like the threads were either stretched or smushed a bit after they were cut or formed.
This wasn't a PF-24 or 25/35 for that matter. If I recall correctly it was for a Chrysler company car I had at the time but the same filter fit many years worth and models so it wasn't like it was a very new or odd ball. Yes a little odd that it was an AC filter for a Chrysler but he said he sold a lot of em so it wasn't like I was the only one mixing brands. THat was also one reason for checking some other model filters, thought was maybe they just didn't care about Chrysler ones and the for GM car ones would be better but they didn't appear to be.
That was when I started to loose confidence in the AC products and I have to say that its only getting worse. The time I have gone with them I really get the feeling I paid a lot extra for a blue and white bag. Many times you compare parts you can't find any difference down to where some sort of handing mark is or a seam from some sort of molding process. Even the stamped identification date code numbers are often identical. I just hope they care more about the more current production stuff. They sure don't care about anything more than about 5-10 years old.
And on the Classic Oil, they mention SL so its not just a major brands current common product because those now tend to be SN rated too. About 3-4 years ago they seemed to make the switch from SL straight to SN. The higher the letter generally means less of the 'good stuff'.
SH is generally considered the line which was around 1996. Likely had to do with OBD2 and the ever tightening emissions standards at the time. Before and after that the changes seemed to be a lot more minor. Also note that SJ is the oldest still certified by API and SJ was 1996-2001. SN had a good long run from 2011-2020. I didn't even know that we now have SP which started in May of 2020 so if you get a 2021 car it may require SP oil.
Also interesting that that label on that classic stuff says API but at least on the photos we saw show the actual API logo / seal. Maybe their API isn't the American Petroleum Institute? Or like I mentioned above as long as you are not trying to claim your oil meets any current certification you can say anything you want and even reference obsolete API standards if you want to?
Adding ZDDP or break in oil additive to the latest Dino oils gives you proper Zinc and Phosphorus levels at a much cheaper price than that pre-packaged stuff. I’ve been doing this for years.
Sometimes hard to find, but I like Hastings filters. Realistically, many of us are probably all overthinking this given the way we use our cars. We all want the best for our metal mistresses (and I’m no exception), but given how gently and infrequently the cars are driven, pretty much any decent filter should be fine. But I’ll still spend more for Hastings or Wix.
Absolutely Wix or NAPA Gold (made by Wix).
Fram is next to worthless.
Hello ,
Maybe I wasn’t over thinking it . Thanks for your input I think the choice is clear. I ordered a new wix filter today . Also changing the fuel filter (wix) was surprised to find out it is located in the fuel pump . I really like this time of year when the weather is getting a little better hear in Jersey . Day light savings time starts next week. We need a few good downpours to wash all the salt off of the roads . I have a feeling by august we are going to be paying in the high 3.00 for gas if not 4.00.
Thank you for all your opinions,
Bill
Been using the AC Delco PF-24's for over a decade and no problems.
Hello , just had my wix fuel , air and Oil filter ship in today , ready to get this season going .Thank for your help .
Bill
I would do the fuel filter first. By far the worst one to do. For some reason getting the steel line loose so you can unscrew the big nut that holds the filter in is always difficult. At least in the case of it being in the pump its not as fragile as the super fine threads into aluminum on the carbs but its a little harder to get to location. I guess you could start draining the oil and then go to work on the fuel filter while its draining.
Thank you TJ for the heads up
On the fuel filter . On the 57’s that I owned for 15 years the oil and filter were on top just open the hood and you were looking at them .
Bill
WIX products for sure. I am with Chris, and would not trust ancient NOS filters. Who knows what may break down inside them under operational conditions after having been stored for decades, (then have that crud circulate through your engine). Not for me. Clay/Lexi
Interesting: the wrench for the oil filter is delivered with the filters!
I didn't notice the filter wrench. You should not need it on this car. Filters on these stick out the front so you can get a good grip on em with your hand. If the installer used a wrench then who knows, if they did that kind of wrench won't likely do it. Only ones that I can think of that are easier than these is if you got a Ford with an inline. I don't think its possible to get easier to access than those.
When I had my '80 Olds Cutlass, the space was too tight (and the filter too hot) to unscrew it with the hands. I had a similar tool which I gave to a colleague because I had no car anymore with that kind of filter.
Now, with my '72 de Ville, I will need one again!
Most V8's can be a little tight because many had a rear distributor which means rear oil pump which also means rear oil filter and they tended to hang down near the block and or oil pan so getting a good grip on them wasn't always easy. The nature of the V engine often meant you could not get to them from above. That is where the classic inlines win, they were usually just stuck out the side of the block.
The 1970's seemed to be when an oil change started to get complicated. Hard to get to filters that once you do get to drain oil down onto other stuff. 71-78 Eldo's the filter drains onto the sway bar unless you do something like use the cardboard from the new filter box to deflect it a bit. GM had their 88-99 4x4 trucks where the oil filter lubricated the front U joint. We are not even going to talk about what the heck Cadillac was thinking on the transverse engines 85-95, possibly the all time winner for hard to get to and make a huge mess because they were above the bellhousing.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on March 05, 2021, 03:31:36 PM
I would do the fuel filter first. By far the worst one to do. For some reason getting the steel line loose so you can unscrew the big nut that holds the filter in is always difficult. At least in the case of it being in the pump its not as fragile as the super fine threads into aluminum on the carbs but its a little harder to get to location. I guess you could start draining the oil and then go to work on the fuel filter while its draining.
T.J. You mentioned the fuel filter . Before I tackle the fuel filter it looks like there is a gasket on the 1 1/4 nut that holds the filter in place . Do you know where I can get the gasket for that nut that hold the filter in place .
Thank you Bill
I do not know where to get that gasket. From memory its a hard gasket. Its either metal with maybe a coating or a hard fiber material. I don't recall that gasket being an issue when I have messed with these things. I think I have a pump laying under my workbench that I can try and remember to check tomorrow. Maybe I can at least measure it so you can look for something similar.
Delco PF 24 for the V8 472-500s. No issues and I have had some in storage here for years.
Perhaps the best answer has already been offered - that it's very possible to overthink this. For cars that typically get such limited and easy use, any decent brand-name filter is unlikely to cause you grief. I would not chance the use of decades-old filters no matter how nice they looked, for fear that the media could detach / collapse / shred and wreak havoc - or just perforate against the center tube and result in a bypass you would never know about. It's also possible that the media-sealing glue had deteriorated - or the bypass spring had relaxed over time - and in either case, again less oil would be filtered. Too many potential perils.
Still, it's often fun to overthink things. A couple thoughts: An oil filter can be extremely well made, and still not do a very good job of filtering the oil. At least one brand mentioned here has very impressive construction quality, a better-quality coiled compression spring, superior anti-drainback valve, and a superior bypass valve, along with above-average filter media area. However, that media is on the 'loose' side for filtering efficiency metrics, and it's not a filter whose measured performance you'd brag about despite how well-made it is. Still, it's revered for its 'quality' and no one bashes it, because modest (some would say mediocre) filtration efficiency isn't something you can readily see.
Filter media selection is a complex compromise - an interplay between flow restriction, filtering efficiency, and dirt handling capacity. Some of the highest-efficiency filters result in greater pressure drop across the media - which could result in the filter spending more time in bypass (e.g. when oil is cold and / or the engine is revving high and creating large flow rates) - which means no filtration at all in that regime, because very few automotive filters do any filtering during bypass mode (indeed, on many engines the bypass is in the filter adapter and not in the filter at all). Such filters can also cause notably less oil pressure at hot idle - say, several psi worth in my testing. The pressure drop of hyper-efficient media can be countered by increasing the surface area - but there's a practical limit there within the constraints of each individual filter size.
Today many people buy super-efficient filters for their home furnaces, after seeing the claims about allergens and viruses and what not - without realizing that the tighter filter causes increased pressure drop and can lead to reduced airflow with implications for temperature rise, heat exchanger life, blower motor life and energy consumption, etc. In airflow as in oil flow, a more efficient filter is an appealing concept when considered in a vacuum - but that's not where furnaces or car engines spend their time.
One of the oil filter brands reviled in the past for its - shall we say - cardboard construction - today makes premium filter lines that are of very high quality design and materials and also offer impressive measured efficiency performance. Cut one open for yourself if you remain skeptical - these are impressive products. They and their like from other manufacturers exist for one reason: people will buy them, and they are often a multiple of the price (and thus profit?) of a conventional filter. The question is whether they're really worth it. For engine wear impact, a hyper-efficient oil filter presents an easily grasped, apparent benefit. However, evidence seems to indicate that for engines that receive reasonable oil and filter service intervals, the incoming air filtration is at least as if not more important in determining engine wear - so don't neglect the importance of the filter decision you make on the top side of the engine, as well as the bottom - and be careful to ensure there are no leaks that bypass dirty air around the filter.
Someone mentioned oil and additives. It's true that the ZDDP levels plummeted after API SL became SM and then SN, etc. - dropping from some 1100-1300 ppm to perhaps 800 ppm in today's formulations. It's not gone - it's just been cut by about a third to help catalytic converters last longer. The newest formulations have also made changes to anti-wear and detergent chemistry to improve timing chain life and reduce LSPI (low speed pre-ignition) in modern turbo engines. The missing zinc was incredibly effective in preventing wear at the high-pressure contact zone between cam lobe and flat tappet.
For our Cadillacs, there are aggravating and mitigating factors. The small base circle dimension of the camshaft in our engines - say, from 1949 thru 1981 - perhaps creates more susceptibility to lobe and lifter wear with the reduction in zinc. However, these engines also have very mild valve spring pressures and low operating speeds - which tends to reduce the incidence of failure while also making valve seat recession in the absence of lead a lesser problem than it might be on other designs.
For my own fleet, I use OEM filters like the FL1A and PF24 on the antiques (they just look right!), and I do like the (perceived?) benefits of hyper-efficient filters (Boss, Pure One, Ultra) on our modern vehicles. The flat tappet cars do get oil with more-than-SM levels of ZDDP, such as Brad Penn, Valvoline VR1, Z-Rod, etc. Note that diesel oils were once an easy go-to for higher anti wear concentrations - but that's no longer automatically the case so check the spec sheets on current product.
Bill, if you want to be really authentic you could look for 51 year old fuel to go with those 51 year old filters.
I'm joshing...
Prior to The Ark's engine rebuild I always used the correct PF 24 and Lucas Hot Rod Oil, no oil has more zinc in it and its
added during the refining process vs a separate additive. Always a better choice.
Post rebuild Jimmy Reid told me to use HR4 for oil and Wix filter #51258.
If Jimmy told me to use elephant pi$$ for oil and a handful of tampons for a filter I would have done that too, so YMMV.
This is a car that gets driven a LOT.
Laurie,
Terrifically comedic response. So, I laughed out loud, and my better seven eighths (my wife) asks, "So what's so funny?" I attempt to explain that you''re one of the only women who write on the site, and then hoping she'll understand the humor-- oh well, sometimes, best to laugh internally. Keep "those cards and letters coming." Gratefully, James
Quote from: James Landi on March 10, 2021, 07:47:50 AM
Laurie,
Terrifically comedic response. So, I laughed out loud, and my better seven eighths (my wife) asks, "So what's so funny?" I attempt to explain that you''re one of the only women who write on the site, and then hoping she'll understand the humor-- oh well, sometimes, best to laugh internally. Keep "those cards and letters coming." Gratefully, James
If its any consolation, you're not the first married man I've gotten in trouble... ;)
WIX or Napa. AC Delco are made in China. Frame never
Quote from: 1976Deville on March 28, 2021, 11:59:40 AM
WIX or Napa. AC Delco are made in China. Frame never
Not the AC ones I have.
It's Fram and yes no way!