1970s Goodbye & thanks.

[MultipleCaddies]

I'm just curious.  Can anyone tell me why the people who are leaving the forum are so against the idea of joining the CLC.  It's not expensive; certainly not compared to the cost of restoring and maintaining a vintage car. 

Because "it's only $25" is not reason enough on its own to spend $25.

[Art Director]

To all the naysayers: Name another GM car club discussion forum that allows non-club members to post.

The CLC has spent thousands of dollars over the years on bandwidth to allow nonmembers to post and has not seen a good return on its investment. No, I'm not the one that brought this topic to the board.

It's difficult for a family of four to eat at McDonald's any more for $25. And that kind of money buys you a full year's membership in the CLC. And you have the privilege of attending the annual Grand National, which just grows larger each year.

[MultipleCaddies]

To all the naysayers: Name another GM car club discussion forum that allows non-club members to post.

The CLC has spent thousands of dollars over the years on bandwidth to allow nonmembers to post and has not seen a good return on its investment. No, I'm not the one that brought this topic to the board.

It's difficult for a family of four to eat at McDonald's any more for $25. And that kind of money buys you a full year's membership in the CLC. And you have the privilege of attending the annual Grand National, which just grows larger each year.

Car *club* forum? Irrelevant, because for every make-specific car *club* forum out there, there is a much larger, much higher traffic forum for that make that does not require paying club membership to post. Performance Years vs. Pontiac Registry, HUGE difference in traffic. Lincolns Online vs. Lincoln Owner's Club, Classic Oldsmobile vs. Oldsmobile Club of America. Cadillac Forums vs. this joint.. Shall I go on?

Now granted, there are some obvious differences between many of these. Like for example, Cadillac Forums fosters an environment that is much friendlier to folks with newer (mid-70's and up) Cadillacs. Also, have a look at the Lincoln Owner's club vs. Lincolns Online. LOC is absolutely dead, while LoL is bustling. What's the common denominator? One costs money and is dead, the other doesn't and is very active.

Doesn't matter whether or not you understand why this is the case, it only matters that you understand that it IS the case, whether you like it or not.

Edit: Also, the "privilege" of attending the Grand National? That you have to pay an even larger amount to register for, and that for me is 2,500 miles away, so it is simply not in the cards until maybe after I retire in 20-25 years. It's funny how people throw things like that out so casually as if going to that or other club events is just some trivial thing for everyone. When was the last time you held an event anywhere near lake Tahoe? Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who owns a classic Cadillac lives on the east coast, so these events that I have the "privilege" of attending are simply not in the cards anyway. $25 doesn't buy much in today's world, but spending $25 to gain "privileges" that I won't be taking advantage of anyway is just $25 for nothing. Most people aren't in the habit of spending money to get nothing.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Edit: Also, the "privilege" of attending the Grand National? That you have to pay an even larger amount to register for, and that for me is 2,500 miles away, so it is simply not in the cards until maybe after I retire in 20-25 years. It's funny how people throw things like that out so casually as if going to that or other club events is just some trivial thing for everyone. When was the last time you held an event anywhere near lake Tahoe? Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who owns a classic Cadillac lives on the east coast, so these events that I have the "privilege" of attending are simply not in the cards anyway. $25 doesn't buy much in today's world, but spending $25 to gain "privileges" that I won't be taking advantage of anyway is just $25 for nothing. Most people aren't in the habit of spending money to get nothing.

Your lack of knowledge as to what CLC Membership gives Members attending a Grand National is Public Liability Insurance coverage.   I haven't read the policy, but there is a part of the Insurance that ensures that no non-member is covered to take in the events that the CLC hold during a GN, and therefore cannot legally partake, apart for attending the General Public open day.

I had to join the CLC to attend in 2002, and stayed a member, even though I am on the other side of the world.   Even took my own car to the 2008 GN (purchased it in NY the year before and flying over and driving it to Cherry Hill, then shipped her home)   Members from many countries around the world attend every year, so distance is not a problem.   The Entry Fees charged to attend the GN covers the cost of the many events associated with the GN.   Without the Entry Fee, the costs to each participant would be huge.

Remember that the Membership Fee is for more than just the ability to post on the Internet Forum.   Not to forget that the CLC also hosts a Facebook Site.

Bruce.    

[Big Fins]

I've been here for 20 years and intend to stay. The price of admission is cheap and even though I can't always attend the GN's, they are fun and you can make some lifetime friends.

I don't agree with everything that happens here. Non-members may not be able to post, but will they still be able to read? Lot's of information can be had just by a simple search on the Googler.

The Self Starter is great 'Throne Room' reading material. It's easy to get lost in it. Yes, I still like a paper magazine. The laptop is too heavy to carry around and the phone is too small for my old peepers anymore.

Before y'all run away, stop and think about it. What do you pay PER MONTH for your useless cable TV that has nothing but garbage on it?

[TonyZappone #2624]

I had suggested years ago that some of the  contributors who were not members of the club be restricted with their postings.  Many car clubs are experiencing declining memberships.  It does not mean the rest of us have to listen to many outsiders chiming in who have no vested interest, (a very inexpensive vested interest).

[billyoung]

I intend on staying. I am 69 and I don't know how much time on earth I still have ( does anyone? ) , however I do really value being able to communicate with like minded people who Love old Cadillac's. I really appreciated when they made the change making membership less expensive if you didn't take a hard copy of the Self Starter as I am a full size rear wheel drive Cadillac fan and so many featured Cadillac's now are not. That said I understand both sides of this argument yet I intend to stay now that the photo's thing has been fixed.

[Big Fins]

I pay the extra because I like a paper copy, though I do miss the Directory. Or did I just not get it the past few years?

[Carfreak]

Sue, if you attended the meeting I'm sure you know the answers, somebody has the unredacted minutes from the Winter board meeting.

I already wrote my response about the topic origination

I don't know who put the idea on the Winter Board Meeting Agenda but to the best of my recollection YES the decision was pretty much unanimous in favor to make the change.

Minutes have not yet been posted on the Directors' webpage. 

[Carfreak]

I do miss the Directory. Or did I just not get it the past few years?

Hasn't been printed the past couple years due to covid-induced significantly increased paper & postage costs.

Printed copies have been offered at an additional cost for members who require one but the online Directory when you log into the Member area of the CLC website is easy to use and always handy.

[badpoints]

I will miss being able to post. I liked being helpful by posting pictures for anyone wanting to know what was original on a 67 SDV. Besides the point of forums should be free, my wife would give me crap about wasting money on my Cadillac. She is probably right, the hours I spend working on my Caddy is financially a waste of time, but it makes me happy. A few last pictures

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

Due to age and care for my wife, I haven't been able to attend Board Meetings for some time. But, as I understand it, the main reason for this change is that it is a way to alleviate spammers and the like. None of us like friends to "get up and leave" for any reason. But those who prey on others for a living are not going to pay $25 just so they can tell you that their life long buddy has the part you desperately need, and just give him a call and he'll send it to you.

I've been a member since 1964 when the dues were $7.50 per year. That's sixty years. In all of that time, I have NEVER been scammed, cheated, or flim-flammed out of a penny by a fellow CLC member. True, I am only one person, but I've trusted people that I've never met in person simply because they are a CLC member.

And if nothing else, many (read "most") have become friends, even though we probably won't ever meet. I remember when I had a NOS 1941 60S stone guard for sale. I got a call from a young lady that was almost in tears giving me an offer that she admitted they "couldn't really afford right now," but she wanted to get it for her husband. I was almost as heartbroken as she was to have to tell her that I'd gotten a NOS pair of stone guards for my 1941 Series 67 in trade the day before. That was fifty years ago, and I'm still sorry that I couldn't help her.

The CLC is not as big as some of the car clubs referred to, yes. Never will be. But it is an organization that is composed of men and women who you can't stay mad at, will help you at any turn, and share their knowledge (and parts) with you.

Gay and I were getting onto the Mass Turnpike headed for the second Boston GN. At the side of the road was a 1949 Cadillac with the hood up. I pulled over onto the side of the on ramp, and put down the window. Whomever it was thanked me, but they already had help from another member.

Many years ago, I goofed up judging Terry Wenger's 1939 Series 61 convertible coupe at an Indy show. He was very disappointed with me. Then, not too long after that, I had the absolute nerve to call him up and ask if he could board my daughter while she completed an internship in St. Louis.

He didn't even ask Nancy, his wife, before saying that "Sure, she can stay with us." And for icing on the cake, when Kimberly hit East St. Louis, her car stopped running. Not only did Terry come and get her, then return for the car, but Nancy gave her, her VW to drive to her work next morning.

This is the kind of friend that you're going to miss when you leave the Forum, just because you think you've been "put upon" by a bunch of ignorant, un-feeling bozos that only want your $25.

If that's your feeling, after all the hopefully helpful tips and leads (and friendships) you've gotten from the Forum, there's not much more we can say, except that the door is never locked, and we'll welcome you back.

One last thought... How many of you that are going to "pull up stakes and leave," if we "saw the error of our ways," and cancelled the membership requirement, would be the first to complain of being ripped off by a scammer. "Why can't the stupid officers do something about us getting ripped off?" Sometimes, you just can't please anybody!

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

It will hurt now, but will REALLY hurt in the years to come.
When I got our 1st Caddy 10 years ago, I was all over the place searching for good info. If a site was a pay site, I just moved on. Some sites are worthless, but once you've paid, you've paid.
At a minimum there should be a 90day trial period for new members.
But, yes. This change is the beginning of the end here due to lack of new blood.

[J. Skelly]

I will miss being able to post. I liked being helpful by posting pictures for anyone wanting to know what was original on a 67 SDV. Besides the point of forums should be free, my wife would give me crap about wasting money on my Cadillac. She is probably right, the hours I spend working on my Caddy is financially a waste of time, but it makes me happy. A few last pictures

Forums are not free since every club pays for a website on the Internet.  Members of the Cadillac-LaSalle Club pay for this as part of their annual dues. It's really a good value just to get the monthly magazine with its technical information and classified ads.  Hopefully you will reconsider. 

[Bryan J Moran]

Many years ago, I goofed up judging Terry Wenger's 1939 Series 61 convertible coupe at an Indy show. He was very disappointed with me. Then, not too long after that, I had the absolute nerve to call him up and ask if he could board my daughter while she completed an internship in St. Louis.

He didn't even ask Nancy, his wife, before saying that "Sure, she can stay with us." And for icing on the cake, when Kimberly hit East St. Louis, her car stopped running. Not only did Terry come and get her, then return for the car, but Nancy gave her, her VW to drive to her work next morning.

One last thought... How many of you that are going to "pull up stakes and leave," if we "saw the error of our ways," and cancelled the membership requirement, would be the first to complain of being ripped off by a scammer. "Why can't the stupid officers do something about us getting ripped off?" Sometimes, you just can't please anybody!

That's a true friend to come to EAST St Louis and assist.

I have tried to be on both sides of this issue. I am leaning toward the pay the $25 to join. Or more for print copy. 

There are a LOT of free forums. Art Director isn't correct. AACA Forums for one are free. Studebakers Drivers Club, noted as a club that is larger then the CLC, is free.

On the other hand, a very specific club/forum is the Mark II Forum and you can't get "premium" content there without a "donation" and that is not a club just a forum. 

[MultipleCaddies]

Your lack of knowledge as to what CLC Membership gives Members attending a Grand National is Public Liability Insurance coverage.   I haven't read the policy, but there is a part of the Insurance that ensures that no non-member is covered to take in the events that the CLC hold during a GN, and therefore cannot legally partake, apart for attending the General Public open day.

I had to join the CLC to attend in 2002, and stayed a member, even though I am on the other side of the world.   Even took my own car to the 2008 GN (purchased it in NY the year before and flying over and driving it to Cherry Hill, then shipped her home)   Members from many countries around the world attend every year, so distance is not a problem.   The Entry Fees charged to attend the GN covers the cost of the many events associated with the GN.   Without the Entry Fee, the costs to each participant would be huge.

Remember that the Membership Fee is for more than just the ability to post on the Internet Forum.   Not to forget that the CLC also hosts a Facebook Site.

Bruce.    

Did you miss the part where I said I live 2,500 miles away and attending is simply not in the cards? ALL "benefits" related to it are not relevant to me as a result.

[TJ Hopland]

How do they do the board meetings?  I assume its online being a international group? 

[Big Fins]

Is there a show of hands as to how many of you really have the knowledge as what the costs are for running a site this size? Every post, every picture uses a little bandwidth. With the size of this forum, the costs of the hosting, the forum provider and the costs of maintaining it are brutal.

I have no knowledge of the costs for this place, but it has to run anywhere from $300-$500 per month. The hosting and server costs are out of this world. Even for my little corner of the Internet, we pay a couple of hundred a year and then get in there and clean out dead posts and pictures, just so I don't have to beg and plead for a few bucks to keep the show on the road. I have some generous members who have no issues in keeping it up and as long as I can, I will. The forum software is free, the 'webmaster' works pro-bono and the mods really don't have to do anything because we all act accordingly.

Donating $25/yr for the information garnered here can't be beat. If you don't want to support the club, what else can be said but, Seeee Yaaa. Do the math. $0.068 cents per day. Yet you'll spend $100 for a crappy meal in a restaurant. I don't understand your way of thinking.

[MultipleCaddies]

Is there a show of hands as to how many of you really have the knowledge as what the costs are for running a site this size? Every post, every picture uses a little bandwidth. With the size of this forum, the costs of the hosting, the forum provider and the costs of maintaining it are brutal.

I have no knowledge of the costs for this place, but it has to run anywhere from $300-$500 per month. The hosting and server costs are out of this world. Even for my little corner of the Internet, we pay a couple of hundred a year and then get in there and clean out dead posts and pictures, just so I don't have to beg and plead for a few bucks to keep the show on the road. I have some generous members who have no issues in keeping it up and as long as I can, I will. The forum software is free, the 'webmaster' works pro-bono and the mods really don't have to do anything because we all act accordingly.

Donating $25/yr for the information garnered here can't be beat. If you don't want to support the club, what else can be said but, Seeee Yaaa. Do the math. $0.068 cents per day. Yet you'll spend $100 for a crappy meal in a restaurant. I don't understand your way of thinking.

Every person who makes this "meals vs. forum support" argument totally misses the point.

I can't make it any clearer than this: The HUGE majority of internet forums are free to use for all people. It has always been this way, it will always be this way. People simply will not pay just to have the ability to post on a forum.

The cost of CLUB membership is not relevant to forum participation. Most people on this forum aren't going to go to club events, they don't want the magazine, they aren't going to participate in the club activities in any way. They just want to read and post on the forum. That is how ALMOST ALL forums work. It's not just me being a cheapskate. These misguided arguments trying to make that the point are just false and come from a position of ignorance. Internet forums have always been about the ability to freely participate and always will be, or they will cease to exist. It doesn't matter whether or not you understand the how and why of that, it IS the reality. When people put up paywall barriers to forums, they show that they have a fundamental lack of understanding of how internet forums operate.

You will not be able to get most people to pay for something that most people believe should be free. The opinions of a comparative few paying club members in a small echo chamber do not make it a reality for everyone on the internet. Most people simply will not pay just to participate on forums. Nothing you say or do will change that. This forum will not be the trailblazer that somehow changes the fundamentals of the internet and human nature.

[79 Eldorado]

Just a couple of comments:
I thought that forum members who joined before "May" were grandfathered... not certain where I read that but I thought it was May of a prior year which would prevent new spammers from causing an issue.

After seeing Paul's topic I noticed "Reminder to CLC members, please make sure that your CLC number is stored in the relevant field in your forum profile. This is important for the upcoming change to the Forums access, More information can be found at the..." But I don't see a "relevant field" in the forum profile. I also went to the general discussion topic and I don't see it there.

I joined the CLC when there was a reduced cost option around the pandemic but other than posting here and contributing to the Self-Starter I don't use the CLC (but I do appreciate it of course). Anyway I have no idea what my CLC number is. After replying I will check to see if it's listed near my name in the membership search.

As someone else mentioned I too found the CLC Forum through a Google search. I contributed and read for years before joining. As that other member mentioned, had it cost something to join the forum, I would have looked elsewhere. I would have never found the forum and I would have never joined the CLC. I think the point of the forum dwindling is very likely going down the path of paid forum membership.

CT (ChevyTalk) is free but you cannot post photos without a basic paid membership. CadillacForums is very good, no membership fees, easier to post photos and is generally overall easier to use.

To me the CLC Forum needs to find another solution. I don't mind paying the membership fee but I will mind paying for something which is a gutted shell of what it was... That's what I see happening. There are already very few topics which fall in the age range I work on most and going in this direction will accelerate the decline.

Scott