Starter Removal for 1940 6227C

[ebuliavac]

Hi All,

I am trying to remove the starter on my 346 flathead so I can rebuild it.  It burned out on me, perhaps because of a 12V conversion.  The solenoid works, but maybe not well enough to engage the starter.  I do think the starter is burned out because I jumped a wire from the battery to the S lead and the starter just sort of growled, no turning.

My question is how to turn that highly-torqued 5/8" bolt (see picture)?  It is in a very tight spot.  I can remove the side panel to get a little more leverage with a longer wrench.  Perhaps I should use an impact wrench and a swivel socket?  Should I remove the top bolt from under the car?  That seems counter-intuitive but maybe there is a way to get at it of which I am not aware?

Thanks in advance,

Ed Buliavac

[Steve Passmore]

That has always been my gripe with these motors. There's no easy way Ed. I have searched for years for a suitable way of getting these out with getting frustrated.  It's just a case of getting it broken to start with using a ring spanner (sorry, wrench , then changing to an open-ended one to turn it a tiny bit at a time.   I have acquired a 5/8" 1/4" drive and bought a 1/4" flexible drive to try and get it bent over the front of the starter with a ratchet but haven't tried these yet.

[Bob Schuman]

Ed,
If you can find a 5/8" box wrench that is curved it will work great for removing that top starter mount bolt. I bought mine many years ago, so I'm not sure if they are commonly available now. If not, possibly heating and bending a normal 5/8" box wrench would give you the needed tool.
Bob Schuman

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

I simply hacksawed a 5/8" box end wrench so that I had a stub of about 3-4" long and was able to position it so that I could smack the stub end with a hammer to get it started.  THEN I found a curved wrench...

After you get that long bolt out, find one about 3/4"-1" long, wipe all the gunk from it and screw it back in by hand, then tighten it back. There's no way you need that long a bolt to hold the starter in. After all this, I did finally find that if you used a "short" socket and a LONG extension you could get the socket up behind the starter and use it. Good luck.

[gary griffin]

Try one of these.  Ratcheting open end wrench. I loosen a  the nut a bit with an open end then finish with one of these

[Steve Passmore]

That's novel Gary. Who makes these?

[tturley]

I had a wrench that was 9/16 on one end and 5/8 on the other and was S shaped. Loaned out and never got back. I think it was a snap on brand.
It was called a starter wrench. Don't know if the are still made

[tturley]

I checked snap on site and they don't list it but this one is on the craft an site when I searched starter whench

[gary griffin]

Steve, the wrenches I showed above are Craftsman. Craftsman tools were sold in Sears stores only at one time but now they are available in Ace hardware stores and probably on line. 

Tom,  when I loan tools out I try to keep a log on a clipboard in the shop.  I have purchased so many special use tools at various costs and still buy specialty tools even if not needing them at the moment.

Tom, we have a friend who is a mobile mechanic and he has a bent wrench logo on his van and that is the name of his company also.

Someone should post the most unusual and rare tools they have.  I have a large box of MM tools and a small box of Whitworth (Steve knows these) and a bigger box of standard tools. I used to file down end wrenches to fit Whitworth on motorcycles but broke down and purchased a set. I just gave my kid brother my 1947 Triumph 1800 roadster as he is nearing retirement and I decided not to do another restoration so I will give him the all of Whitworth stuff I have too

[tturley]

I also have a set of whitworth tools as a have a norton atlas that I am building and a 650 matchless motor that I will do something with eventionally

[ebuliavac]

Thank you all for those tool suggestions.  I ended up using a hammer and a 5/8" ring wrench to loosen the bolt.  There is a curved wrench that bounced off under the car, and a small socket as well, that just wouldn't move.  It fell down there too.  I'll get them later.

My next question is do I have to raise the car to get at the lower bolt?  Perhaps I can remove the side panel and reach down there somehow (seems unlikely)?

Thanks again,

Ed

[Steve Passmore]

Definitely best from underneath for that bottom one Ed.

[ebuliavac]

Thanks Steve.  I just took another look and of course you are right.

This lower bolt seems even more difficult.  I took a picture with my phone on a dolly and I felt it with my hand.  It is in that tight little space near the engine block and blow-by tube.  It seems the only way to get at it might be an open wrench (spanner) and turn a little at a time, or, maybe your flex socket tool you just got.  It is wedged-in so tight that I don't know whether a ring wrench will fit (ring might be too thick).

What do you think?

I want to line up all my ducks before I get under there.

Thanks again,

Ed

[Steve Passmore]

I actually found that one to be the easier one ed. When the cars lifted and your under there, all will be revealed

[ebuliavac]

OK thanks! 

I just lifted the car and it sits high already, so not too hard, but I need to buy jack stands to be safe, and the stores are not open here.

I'll keep you posted.  I must say, I am optimistic!

Thanks again,

Ed

[ebuliavac]

Success!

Got the starter out today using the tools below and the suggestions from the group.  Thank you all many times over for your help.

I went to a couple of hardware stores and ended up getting a set of ratcheting open wrenches, which will be useful for a number of applications, especially installing the lower starter bolt.

Swivel sockets were too big to fit in the small spaces for this application.  So was the flex attachment for an impact wrench they had.  I might eventually get a set of long wrenches.  They had some S wrenches but these were not offset.  The S might go around the solenoid, so I might pick up a set when I get ready to install.  Mostly, though, I can turn the bolts with my fingers once they are unstuck.  These had been cut short at some point, maybe 1 1/2." 

I bench-tested the starter.  Solenoid works great but the starter won't turn.  Perhaps at 12V it needs 12V armature and fields, as opposed to 6V?  I am guessing it would not turn as fast and thus not heat up as much. 

Thanks again,

Ed

[Steve Passmore]

Ed, you have to wire these up properly just like when they are on the car to test them. Clamp the starter in a vice. if it spins it will jump out your hands. Attach jump leads, the power supply to the big nut on the starter where it normally bolts from the battery (doesn't matter about positive or negative here when it's off the car) ground wire to starter body. Then a separate power(smaller wire) lead to one of the solenoid terminals. Touch another lead from the other solenoid terminal to battery ground for an instance.  You may have to swap over solenoid terminal wires ground versus power. You should see the solenoid pull in, drive the gear out and make contact inside and spin the motor.
If the starter still does not turn it could be the large contact at the back, inside of the solenoid. These get burnt.
To test just the starter,  Ground wire to starter body. Connect the power supply to the other big terminal with the brass strip and touch the other end to battery ground. The starter should spin but solenoid will not operate, If this happens it's most likely that brass connector in the back of the solenoid as mentioned.

They will work fine for a long time on 12 volts as long as your engine is a good starter and you don't leave it cranking over for long periods.

[ebuliavac]

Thanks Steve,

I think it's the starter because the solenoid works but the starter won't turn under both testing scenarios above.  I'll keep you posted. 

Thanks,

Ed

[ebuliavac]

I am back on the road with a rebuilt starter.  Thank you all again for your help on this one.

I am attaching a picture of the old armature.  Seems to have flown apart and then stuck, or maybe heat expansion with one of the copper coils.

On the lower starter bolt, I could only use a thin-walled socket.  Everything else was too thick.  The offset wrench worked best to install the starter on the top bolt.

The other thing that helped with the install was to clean up the bolts and apply some ZEP oil and turn them both with my fingers as much as possible, and then turn the wrenches a little at a time.

Thanks again!

Ed

[Steve Passmore]

Yep, that's a busted starter