Transmission - Stuck in engine! Thanks for all the help!!!

[D.Yaros]

Unless I am reading these post wrong, if the clutch disc is hung up on the trans front spline, should it not come out with the tranny, bell housing and pressure plate; assuming the pressure plate has been unbolted from the flywheel.

Also, is it possible to get a screwdriver plate between the clutch disc and pressure plate and jiggle it so it floats freely on the trans spline?

[Steve Passmore]

Unless I am reading these post wrong, if the clutch disc is hung up on the trans front spline, should it not come out with the tranny, bell housing and pressure plate; assuming the pressure plate has been unbolted from the flywheel.

Also, is it possible to get a screwdriver plate between the clutch disc and pressure plate and jiggle it so it floats freely on the trans spline?

The bell housing cannot be removed from these cars before one drops the clutch, pressure plate and flywheel out of the bottom. The transmission has to be removed before one can do this.

[Jay Friedman]

Quote from Steve Passmore: "The bell housing cannot be removed from these cars before one drops the clutch, pressure plate and flywheel out of the bottom. The transmission has to be removed before one can do this."

Steve, I'd like to ask D. Yaros' question again as I think he is on to something.  Assuming there is enough room behind the rear extension housing of the transmission why couldn't the clutch disc "come out with the tranny, bell housing and pressure plate; assuming the pressure plate has been unbolted from the flywheel?" 

If I remember correctly, on 346 motors the clutch pressure plate bolts are somewhat accessible to a wrench once the sheet metal cup-shaped bottom cover is removed, as it already is according to Joe's fourth photo on page 1.  If Joe removes the bolts holding the bell housing to the block and the bolts holding the clutch pressure plate to the flywheel (for which he'd have to turn the flywheel a quarter or third of a turn a few times to get to all the bolts), why wouldn't everything come loose as one big unit.  Yes, the heavy pressure plate will fall onto the transmission front shaft and it would might probably work better if the transmission were bolted back to the bell housing, but in theory it seems that it should work.  It might require 2 guys underneath there and / or some more jacks to support everything, but I don't think it has anything to do with the flywheel.

Food for thought??

[harry s]

The bell housing has reinforcing plates that are part of the casting that goes behind the flywheel so as Steve mentions the flywheel must come off before the bell housing. To further complicate things the flywheel bolts to the crank are normally accessed through the spline shaft opening in the bell housing. It still seems that some sort of finessing is going to be the ticket to removing that trans.     Harry

[Steve Passmore]

Sorry Jay, that won't work. Just as Harry said the bell housing is designed in such a way on the 346 that it cannot be removed while the flywheel and clutch is in there, The transmission input shaft go's through a small hole in the back of the bell-housing so the clutch cannot pass out the rear. The flywheel bolts cannot be accessed until the clutch is out the way and the bell housing will not come off its dowels until the flywheel is out of the way, so until that transmission moves out the back, nothing else moves.

[JoeCeretti]

I wish it could be done that way. 

Today I am going to make a more substantial pusher out of steel to take the strain off the ears. It's coming out.

[Hilarius]

Since Joe already busted the retaining ring for the input shaft bearing there seems to be enough room in the back of the trans and doesn't hit anywhere, preventing it to be pulled back.
Since it is a miracle to not only me that this trans wouldn't come out, the only thing I can imagine at this point is that maybe Joe has forgotten to support the rear of the engine and the splines of the trans have warped the driven plate and got stuck in there under the load of the engine.
Joe speaksof jack stands, only and a moveable one under the trans.
Might that be the reason??
Hilmar.

[Jay Friedman]

Thanks for the information guys.  You learn something every day.  Good luck to Joe.

[Hilarius]

Joe,
there must be another way to pull the trans back.
A more substantial puller design might wreck your trans on top of the already damaged clutch parts.
Do you have a support under the rear of the engine??, or have you jacked the engine up maybe too high, both of which could cause engine and trans not to line up properly for the removal of the latter??
I can see you despairing but don't use brute force because of it.
Hilmar.

[JoeCeretti]

I have a jack on the front of the car, a jack on the oil pan and a jack on the transmission. The jack on the transmission is on wheels so it can move back and forth. Also even without the jack the transmission can only really move back and forth, it is supported by the x-frame. I also have jack stands in place in case of failure of one of the jacks.

It's not out of line at all. But is sure stuck. I see no other way but to force it out, assess the damage and replace what needs replacing.

[Jim Stamper]

     I am leaning toward the pilot bearing being seized on the end of the input shaft.  Was the pilot bearing checked for fit on the end of the shaft before installation? Did the transmission slide all of the way in when last installed, or did bolts have to pull the transmission in until fully seated against the bell housing possibly force fitting the bearing to the shaft, and the bearing itself spinning in the crank shaft.

     I am always one to beat my brains out trying to finesse these sorts of obstacles.  At the risk of being branded a savage, at some point the Victor Wrench may come out and the obstacle is soon laying smoking and melted on the floor and I can get on with the project at hand and get the project done with. This one is a tough one, but the bell housing should contain the fire and and spray of hot metal. Probably easiest done on a lift, but the floor works too, with a responsible helper with a garden hose. I soak everything, do some cutting and water everything down as often as necessary.

     Not saying this one is quite to that point yet, after all pulling the engine and transmission out is still an option. With the pivot ball out of the way and the whole clutch assembly pulled back and the transmission pulled back as far as possible what can be seen? Is the end of the shaft visible with no bearing on it? Are the flywheel bolts reachable? with that removed and moved back the bell housing might be removed, from the engine, the flywheel detached. The bell housing will still be part of the mix until the clutch disk is off, but the trouble will be right there to behold.  I don't see this happening in the car, the X won't let the transmission down enough so the assembly can clear the engine so the transmission can come forward out of the X. Think of all the weight involved.

     If it came to all that my torch would come out and in 15 minutes or less there would be no obstruction to the transmission coming out. How many hours do we spend getting parts out when they have caused more trouble than they are worth?  Wet often, dress for fire and hot metal falling.

     Good luck with the one.    Jim Stamper CLC#13470

[JoeCeretti]

I do suspect it is the pilot bearing. Unfortunately there is absolutely no room to do anything but pull it out by force. I was planning on doing it this weekend but it rained non stop every day all day. No way to disassemble without going in order. I COULD pull the engine and transmission as a whole but that entails a lot lot lot of other work.

[JoeCeretti]

I made a VERY substantial puller. 1x6 inch long bolts... I put enough pressure on it that one of the bolts started to bend. Then whacked away at the parts with a hammer to see if I could shock it loose. I removed the puller for fear of breaking something.  It's still stuck.

I don't think I have been more frustrated.

It does appear to be the pilot bearing that has fallen in love with the input shaft. I bolted it mostly together and am going to have it towed to my friends garage and put up on the lift. I hope his years of experience will be able to figure out how to do this.

[savemy67]

Hello Joe,

Your frustration to beer ratio must be off the charts.  I can commiserate with having to destroy parts in order to remove them, but I encourage you to avoid doing anything that might bust any of the iron assemblies like the bell housing or the transmission case.  Cast iron has tremendous compressive strength, but comparatively, much less tensile strength.  I would probably remove the engine and transmission before risking the destruction of the iron parts, or even the crankshaft.  Hopefully, your friend may solve this awful situation.

When all is said and done, I would be curious to know if the pilot bearing is the culprit.  It seems to me that if you used x amount of force to pull the transmission to the bell housing with the attaching bolts, only a little more than x amount of force would be needed to remove the transmission with the pilot bearing stuck on the front of the input shaft.  Jim Stamper's post suggests that you may have press-fit the input shaft into the pilot bearing by using the attaching bolts to pull the transmission to the bell housing.  Jim's post also suggests the pilot bearing may be spinning in the crankshaft.  If you inadvertently press-fit the input shaft into the pilot bearing, I think that the harder metal of the input shaft may have caused the outside diameter of the pilot bearing to increase, thereby increasing the interference of the fit of the pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft, so I don't think the pilot bearing would be spinning freely.  If the bearing was spinning, I think the transmission would come out with the bearing snuggly attached  the front of the input shaft.  Regardless, it would have required considerable force to press-fit the input shaft into the pilot bearing, and if you have devised a puller using 1 inch diameter bolts, which are larger then the stock attaching bolts, you should have been able to generate enough pulling force trying to remove the transmission to overcome the force used to attach the transmission.

Without being too long-winded, I am just trying to decipher this situation.  If nothing moves with the application of a great amount of force, obviously something is jammed solid - something with tremendous compressive strength and or mechanical advantage, and I am not totally convinced that it would be the pilot bearing.  We have all seen the test where the tensile strength of a bolt is measured by stretching the bolt until it breaks.  The bolt diameter narrows as the bolt is stretched.  Finally the bolt snaps.  Steel is one of the most elastic substances made by man so it will provide a warning before it fails.  Iron is not elastic.  Too much force, and failure is achieved without warning.  If your friend cannot figure out what is holding the transmission in, you may have to remove the engine and transmission from the car, and then perform surgery and remove the crankshaft from the engine with the clutch, bell housing and transmission attached.  IF you have to do this , I will buy you a case of beer.  Of course, if you can easily locate a transmission case, bell housing, and crankshaft, then apply all the force you want, but the beer is on you.  Best of luck, and keep us posted.

Respectfully submitted,

Christopher Winter

[Steve Passmore]

Your in the same boat as the rest of us Christopher trying to decipher this situation. Let me just clarify a few points about these flathead engines if I may.  If the bearing is stuck on the end of the transmission input shaft it will not pass through the clutch for removal but pull up against the plate and the springs in the pressure plate making it difficult for Joe's puller to act against the springing effect. Secondly what you suggest about removing the crank, bell-housing and transmission as one unit will not work on these engines because the clutch prevents one from getting at the bell-housing and the flywheel bolts and even if one could the bell-housing has to move backwards off its dowels and it cant do that while attached to the crankshaft.  Guess the only answer it that situation would be to cut the bell-housing off the crankcase then find a replacement for that item.

[JoeCeretti]

I have another bell housing, transmission case and input shaft in good condition. I think I can get a hacksaw blade in the space and cut the input shaft in half. At least then I will be able to get the transmission off. Still considering the possibilities. It would kill me to destroy these parts.

[Steve Passmore]

If it came to that Joe I would be more inclined to use a cutting disc and cut around the perimeter of the bell-housing. Two reasons, one, it would be a darn sight easier than trying to get your hands up to that gearbox input shaft with an hack saw blade and I believe the shaft would be hardened making it impossible anyway, and second, as a last resort the cast bell-housing could easily be welded back up afterwards whereas the shaft is junk.

[Smedly]

I think if it was me I would bolt in all back together, remove all from the car and replace with a small block chevy.
Just kidding  I an learnig a lot about these cars from reading this post and many others, man things are much simpler on cars from say the 70s.  Good luck Joe, keep us posted.

[JoeCeretti]

I have to assume that the older transmission shops around here have dealt with this before. I'm going to ask around here before doing anything drastic.

Actually this car is pretty simple. That's the beauty of it... just this stuck together parts problem.   

[Chris Bryant #19358]

Hi Joe,

I have been watching your troubles with great sympathy and  I hope you succeed in fixing this issue. I greatly respect Steven for his always welcome support of us all when we are in difficulty.

That being said, I think it would very difficult to re-weld the bell housing accurately enough to maintain proper alignment with the rear face of the block. Certainly cut through the bell housing as Steve suggest, but be sure to use your spare one when doing the re-assembly.

Cheers,

Chris #19358