346 flat head no start?

[cadillac60]

The thing that baffles me is that I have no suction thru the carb which obviously is not going to distribute gas to the cylinders to allow it to start for more than 1 or 2 seconds and then die.

Bruce W.

[cadillac60]

Art , thanks for your continuing interest.  I had this car stored in apt garage & would start it up & run at least 2 to 3 times a month more often in the spring & summer when our club has all their events. Now closer to time I started having problems,
Jan of 2013 ---- The car started just fine I drove it for approx. 5 miles on the highway with the last mile at 55 MPH. I parked  it back in the apt garage with no problem & turned it off with no  shuttering or noise. After we returned from a 5 week holiday I went down to take it for a run & it would not start. After finding there was no suction thru the carb it was time to have a tow truck bring it to the house. After putting new points, rotor, plugs, condenser in it showed no difference. It will start for 1 to 2 seconds and die.
As mentioned in some of the past notes on the forum ,the No 1 cylinder on the compression stroke does line up with the mark on the damper(A/G) as well as the rotor is pointed to No 1 plug wire in the distributor.
Now ,  many people keep pointing at the timing chain, I have trouble thinking it somehow has jumped a notch when all the
timing as mentioned above seems OK.

Regards Bruce W

[cadillac60]

Art,

The fuel pump bowl is full, it has been cleaned, no filter has been added. I took off the line at the carb coming from the fuel pump & cranked the engine over and lots of gas was pumping out.  I have taken out the screw on the side of the carb & the fuel is just below the level of the threads where the screw fits in. According to the specs this is the correct level.

Regards

Bruce W

[harry s]

Here's a long shot Bruce. I parked my '48 in the corner of the garage a few years ago for the winter. During that time mice went up the tail pipe with all of their bedding and food and filled the exhaust manifold. Fortunately, my next task on the car was to take the engine out and rebuild. With all you have checked and all of the suggestions there's not much left.    Harry

[gary griffin]

There have been many articles in this forum about the modern gasoline. Without zinc cam lobes wear more than they normally do. With worn cam lobes there would be some of the problems you have and that along with lifter failure would account for the engine only running a short time. I remember a perplexing problem with a car that started and then failed and it turned out to be heat expansion in the valve train keeping the valves open just a little bit as it warmed up the longitudinal expansion in the valve stems killed the ability to intake fuel gas mixture and then killed the combustion stroke also. It did not take very long to occur as the valve stems are receving a lot of heat during combustion.  It started again when it coole ddown a little and continued the cycle.

[cadillac60]

Art,

Thanks once again, I have checked the wiring circuit & as far as I can determine every thing is ok there.  Because of the 0  suction thru the carb I am wondering if it could be valve timing problem or stuck or broken valve or valves. Another thought would a blown head gasket cause this kind of problem.

Regards

Bruce W

[cadillac60]

Thanks Art, 

I appreciate you suggestions & have learned by everyones input & so far have learned what it isn't but not what it is.  This is a good process to hopefully eliminate an expensive job if it isn't required. It does look more & more that I will have to get into the rings & valves & see what's going on with the help of others as I am not a mechanic. Lots of fun???

Regards

Bruce W.

[gary griffin]

  I keep engines running by using starting fluid or carbuerator cleaner (Which burns like gas)in a spray can.

  If they continue to run on this mixture there is a fuel delivery issue, but if not there is an electrical or valve or other mechanical issue issue.

[Richardonly]

May sound stupid, BUT, keep your face away when pouring gas or fluid down the carb!!!!!   Glasses and gloves could not hurt.

[dadscad]

Richard, your caution is very valid. Not only that, but by all means have a fire extinguisher there! The only way I'll pour fuel down a carburetor and then start it is with the air filter firmly attached.

[cadillac60]

Thanks for your input in reference to trying to get this car started. Looking down the throat of the car I can clearly see that fuel is coming into the carb when pumping the gas,so by starting the car for the 2 seconds it runs & pumping the gas should result in the same thing as adding gas into the carb by other means. 

Regards

Bruce W

[Rod Dahlgren #19496]

Yep, Gas these days has alcohol -- Allows for Phase Separation to occur, especially in certain climate conditions. Since our old cars have vented gas tanks and sit for long periods, moisture condenses in the tank and drops into the gas attaching to the alcohol molecules causing the alcohol to drop out to the bottom of tank, then gets pumped into the fuel system rusting and rotting fuel lines, hoses and inside of the carb.

IF the engine is ran much with this gunk feeding the internal parts, the first thing to get contamination are the valve stems. This stuff make them stick like glue.

The 346 being a flathead, the valve stems do not get much lubrication (dont need much) so they are not "cleaned" while being lubricated. HOWEVER, the valve guides can be quite worn and still not be a "problem" with a decent running engine, the engine will not have smoke due to worn guides...

Now-- just to get a few things OFF THE CHECK LIST -- The 346 timing ear and chain is a HUGE Heavy Duty set of parts.. NO way this is the problem. All you guys that have not seen how beefy these are I can post photos, or take a look in the shop manual.  NEXT, it will run for a few seconds then quit-- OK-- we have an engine that will run--- Just wont keep running--- BACK TO the fuel delivery situation--- Third, it ran and drove at 55 just a short time ago---- AGAIN-- Back to the fuel delivery situation. 

Here is a photo of the 346 I just completed. It is heading for Germany tomorrow by AIR.. Needs to be in a car in time for the Netherlands Meeting. I am just now measuring up the bracing for the trip.

Next, I go back in the shop to finish building another 346 for a 48 series 61.

[LeRoy DeVol]

I have been following all the posts about your problem & have come to only 1 possible answer. The post about your exhaust system being plugged up is the only solution to your problem that makes sense. If your exhaust is plugged the engine would not be able to suck any air if it could not get rid of any. This would give you low compression & allow the engine to run for only a few seconds. The easy way to check this would be to disconnect the exhaust from the manifold at the front of the engine and see if it runs. Years ago when I was a young man!!! we would plug up the tail pipe on a friends car with a potato & it would cause the same problem. After a few tries the potato would fly out like a bullet & scare everyone to death. Sometimes on a old muffler the baffle would come loose and would plug up the exhaust.

Lots of luck!! Lee DeVol 

[Rod Dahlgren #19496]

there ya go-------  problem solved -- squirrels and rats up the pipe 

[cadillac60]

I was hoping that the exhaust plugged up was the problem, but after disconnecting the exhaust from the manifold there was no change, it would run for a second or two & die. I did take a manifold vacuum reading yesterday & it was 0.  After reading some articles it was said " if the reading is below 3 the car won't start" Well they were right about that.

Bruce W

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

Bruce,
I hate to see a man in pain..
My last 2 suggestions. 1 or 2 seconds is not running.
Jump it with 12 volts as I suggested before.
Run your hot wire directly from the battery to the coil.
HTH, Bob

[cadillac60]

Art,

Thanks for your suggestions,

I checked every possible connection on the wiring including the ignition, starter button,  coil, ammeter engine to ground.  It appears the wiring is all original & in average to good shape. So I am back to square one. but on the positive side after all the testing I know what it isn't.

Regards

Bruce W

[Bill Ingler #7799]

How well have you checked the wiring inside the distributor? Mainly I am referring too the short ground wire that goes from the breaker plate and fastens under the screw securing the distributor cap hold down clip. If the connections are bad or the wire is bad, the ground might be just be good enough to start the car and once started even for a brief time like you say, the engine stops because engine vibration could open that ground and kill the engine. I would also check the lead wire from the points to the side terminal of the distributor. I once had a 41 that every time I would start the car and back it out of the driveway, the engine would stop. I changed just about everything I could and it still did the same thing. Finally I started with the ignition switch and checked all wiring back to the battery. Everything checked out OK until I got to the battery. I checked the ground cable and it was loose as I had, prior to all the problems, put in a new battery and never tightened the negative ground cable. Makes one rather humble.  Bill 

[cadillac60]

Bill,

Thanks for your information, I will check those items, the distributor was rebuilt so should be OK but will double check it. The ground wires etc have been checked .  Will keep trying.

Regards

Bruce W

[cadillac60]

As I have tried almost everything to start this car, without any luck, I thought I would take of the Carb and check the suction in the intake manifold. I had someone turn over the engine while I held my hand over the empty carb plate.  The suction was very strong.  I put the carb back on & hooked everything  back up & no suction thru the carb? I tried it with the throttle wide open as well as closed & still no suction. ??
Bruce W