Is it me or have the posts about The Ark gone silent? While some of the responses were brash...the Cadillac convos were cool. What happened?
The owner of the Ark decided to depart from the CLC, both the Club, and Forums, including Facebook.
Laurie would not tone down her brash remarks, and following the instigating of a ban from the Administrators, after sending disgusting correspondence to all, even the President of the CLC, she decided to completely sever her Membership and part ways.
Bruce. >:D
Well that is a loss. I enjoyed hearing someone that
worldly telling it like it is. I never detected
distortions of the truth, we have lived with
plenty of that lately. Bruce Roe
Well that doesnt surprise me considering her comments. Oh well. Shame it got ugly.
Etta James said it best.....At Last.
Disappointed to learn that Laurie left under such circumstances. The Club and CLC Administrators did not deserve what Bruce reported. I always liked Laurie's passion for Cadillac, but to say she has some issues that are incompatible with the CLC is an understatement. Hope she is happy in her new endeavours. Clay/Lexi
Yes, Laurie had strong opinions and lots of them but a huge part of Laurie's recent angst was based on a particular moderator, how at times he comes across as biased in how Forum Rules are administered - or not enforced. I've had it happen to me too.
We are down a few Forum Moderators due to death (Bill Hedge), another sold his Cadillac and didn't renew his Club membership (Dan LeBlanc) and at least one other moderator is not always active on a regular basis sometimes being absent for weeks or longer.
Speaking with the CLC President, he will likely being reaching out to some of the regulars here or perhaps in his President's Message asking for one or more volunteers to step up and join as a new Moderator.
I'd love to volunteer but sadly work and life might not be the best for helping. I can attest that locally I've connected with 10 other Cadillac owners and have preached the club/forum. Even last night there was a beautiful 64 Deville drop top that I've never seen before. Crazy to think there's that many mid century Cads here.
99% of the problem is that no one involved in this was face to face. Forums and e communication create these disfunctions.
Responses here are compromised by time, responsibility and motive.
Bruce will never meet Laurie. If they did - and there was also a group in the meeting, I doubt Laurie would drop f bombs and inappropriate words.
Quote from: Bryan J Moran on March 30, 2024, 07:12:33 PM99% of the problem is that no one involved in this was face to face. Forums and e communication create these disfunctions.
Responses here are compromised by time, responsibility and motive.
Bruce will never meet Laurie. If they did - and there was also a group in the meeting, I doubt Laurie would drop f bombs and inappropriate words.
One of the biggest problems with corresponding over the internet as against face to face is the lack of inflections in ones' voice. Even though a lot of us speak English, the biggest problems is that in some countries, writing a word can have many different meanings. Plus, words in one dialect can mean totally the opposite in another, which is why English Language is one of the hardest languages to understand, and to learn from a non-english-speaking area.
Heck, even in USA, a lot of people couldn't understand what I was saying, because I didn't realise that I had an accent. Never had a problem at home.
Plus, some words in one place can mean something really derogatory, but in others, a term of endearment. It is just how it is said, as against written.
Bruce. >:D
Again her posts with her car were cool but not her attitude towards other members. Nobody should ever berate another member. Its like the American Legion...leave your troubles at the door and enjoy!
Ad first, I was looking at the posts from Laurie. After a while, I skept them because it was garbage for me. As a French speaking guy, I had difficulties to understand what she wrote.
I guess I am a guy that tries to imagine walking in another's shoes. I belong to a Christian Prison Ministry called KAIROS and we go into a Prison every month and do Church with the prisoners and twice a year we go in for 4 days and teach them about Christ. In listening to their stories of their childhoods and lives it explains much of their behaviors but does not excuse them. Laurie is a Veteran, she has endured much in that service that has severely damaged her health and will curtail her life expectancy. I take these things into consideration. Again each of us may have aspects of our personalities that may be harder for others to understand and accept. One Mans Opinion.
Being a member of this club and especially this forum is one of the joys of my old age. The challenges and issues as stated above and the analysis are spot on... I add my bit of experience as a headmOnster in several college preparatory, private schools with volunteer boards spanning nearly 40 years, as follows: This organization likely receives an "A" from its members. But a solid "A" grade leaves out 5% who are dissatisfied. Most of these folks are either uncompromising or suffer from personality disorders. I say this not to cast aspersions on those who are not well served or have been slighted, but only to point out that in a not-for-profit organized and headed by a self perpetuating board of trustees and run by volunteers, there are bound to be folks who are unhappy. It's just a sad truth that negatively affects volunteerism and good cheer.
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 30, 2024, 09:52:07 PMPlus, some words in one place can mean something really derogatory, but in others, a term of endearment. It is just how it is said, as against written.
Bruce. >:D
Hopefully you eventually learned calling someone the B-word is not friendly in the US.
Quote from: James Landi on March 31, 2024, 07:31:16 AMBeing a member of this club and especially this forum is one of the joys of my old age. The challenges and issues as stated above and the analysis are spot on... I add my bit of experience as a headmOnster in several college preparatory, private schools with volunteer boards spanning nearly 40 years, as follows: This organization likely receives an "A" from its members. But a solid "A" grade leaves out 5% who are dissatisfied. Most of these folks are either uncompromising or suffer from personality disorders. I say this not to cast aspersions on those who are not well served or have been slighted, but only to point out that in a not-for-profit organized and headed by a self perpetuating board of trustees and run by volunteers, there are bound to be folks who are unhappy. It's just a sad truth that negatively affects volunteerism and good cheer.
Spot on James. We can't please all of the people all of the time. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: James Landi on March 31, 2024, 07:31:16 AMI say this not to cast aspersions on those who are not well served or have been slighted, but only to point out that in a not-for-profit organized and headed by a self perpetuating board of trustees and run by volunteers, there are bound to be folks who are unhappy. It's just a sad truth that negatively affects volunteerism and good cheer.
LOL, every two years the
self-perpetuating Board is up for reelection. There is usually at least one mention suggesting members who were interested to become involved submit their names to be put on the ballot.
This year I heard some longer-term Board members were asked to consider stepping back in case people were being reelected due to name familiarity as a way to help get some new people involved.
The ballot and candidate profiles for this year's election were in the March Self Starter. For the first time, votes can be submitted on the paper ballot by mail or members can vote online.
Historically only a small percentage of members actually bother to vote. When I looked at the ballot there were several new names including Forum participant Eric DeVirgilis, Frank Nicodemus JR, Nick Manole, Dr Joe Roglieri, Dan Graziadei, Jim Jordan and Bill Levy.
Mr. Landi - have you returned your ballot yet? Granted there are 20 names for the 20 open positions (plus the option for Write In Candidate) but there is also a Constitutional Amendment being considered also.
"Mr. Landi - have you returned your ballot yet? Granted there are 20 names for the 20 open positions (plus the option for Write In Candidate) but there is also a Constitutional Amendment being considered also."
No--- I'm a laggard-- I enjoy the club, read the forum every day, have fun weighing-in, I haven't donated, I haven't voted. If I sound like I'm preaching, please accept my apologies. Yep, I'm one of the selfish folks who should be very actively involved, but I'm not and I've no excuses.
I appreciate your challenging me and my personal observations regarding not-for-profit organizations . In my experience, on average, somewhere around 5% of those in a not-for-profit like CLC are volunteers and donors, so they are a small group of dedicated and passionate folks who will take on the task and responsibilities that, in the commercial, for profit world, are paid positions. And I entirely agree with you that engaging membership to take on these responsibilites is a challenging part of their task,that is, finding like minded volunteers to keep the organization running. The nominating committee of the board is essential--- thus "self-perpetuating element for not-for-profit boards."
I come here for the knowledge. I pay my dues because this kind of stuff doesn't come for free and I recognize that. I don't vote because I don't know anything about anyone in the club- but I may one day drive my ratty-caddy to a club event just to see what's up. Most of what I've learned about the various mechanicals I've learned here. What a great place!
The stories about the Ark were always entertaining. What a character!
As a '70 owner, I will really miss hearing about updates to the Ark and the associated color. I do understand that a line was crossed and that there are consequences, but I appreciate and support the hard work of our moderators.
Is there an over and under on whether the Ark will be at Gettysburg?
I hope she makes it there.....alot of effort has gone into that car....
Mike
Hello Mike. On her FB page she said in unflattering terms, that she was no longer attending-though initially had made all the necessary plans to do so. Too bad, as it should all be about Cadillac and personal differences put aside. My understanding is that currently she no longer plans to attend. Clay/Lexi
Here are my thoughts, we spend time & money to gain folks to join this organization. We get a person interested enough to join the National club, then most likely they also become a member of a region and support both local & National events, some come with knowledge and some come with questions about the cars they own. It's hard enough to go out and find individuals willing to support our hobby much less our club. Yes, Laurie was a little vocal in some of her post with a certain person on this forum and he had an issue with her comments. She was a member who shared her excitement of owning her Cadillac and shared it with all of us, some great times with her car and some not so happy events with it. Many were entertained by her posts and maybe a few got tired of her comments, but one thing about her she told it like it was. Like anything else, if you don't like what you're reading, just scroll on by, move on to the next subject. They are certain people on this form or may I say in charge of monitoring what is posted that gets "butt hurt" if something they disagree with is directed at them. Not everyone is going to agree with what's posted on this forum and not every moderator is going to agree with a members post. As a Director of a region, I here all to many times why members don't renew their membership with the National club and by not renewing their membership we then loose a regional member who no longer has an interest in the club. As a region, we bust our ass to promote the club, we are most likely the first they encounter about wanting to join for fellowship but to do so they must become a national member. With that being said think twice about how you respond to certain issues because your actions also affect the memberships of the local regions. We know how exciting Laurie was about attending local regional events and the GN in Gettysburg in June and sadly you won't see her or the Cadillac that she is so proud of, and no she was not a member of my region just my thoughts on how this situation was handled.
Quote from: druby on April 16, 2024, 07:49:22 AMI say in charge of monitoring what is posted that gets "butt hurt" if something they disagree with is directed at them.
Dan, the bottom line was Laurie broke just about every rule we have repeatedly, and the wrath seen publicly posted was the tip of the iceburg, compared to the wrath the moderators and other CLC officials received privately. And just to be clear, she was not removed from the club, she was suspended from the forum for 90 days, plenty of time to cool off before the Grand National (
I wanted to see her Cadillac, too!), and consider the rules she had broken. If anyone was "butt hurt" as you put it, it was Laurie.
One final thing I have to say: There was a LOT of discussion behind the scenes on this subject by Many, including ALL moderators, President, Exec VP, VP IT, and the the Executive Board. I would normally not reply on behind the scenes matters, but we all know that when we just assume something without digging into facts, there is often a lot more than what meets the eye. We did not take this matter lightly and there was a lot of time and effort expended by dedicated members behind the scenes.
Respectfully, Jason
Unfortunately on her FB page she made a number of unsavory comments about us all, as well as mocking aspects of CLC members in general. It was not just about Bruce, (he was the lightning rod), but about the entire organization. While I could provide details, suffice to say that most disturbing was that some of her FB comments did not make any sense whatsover. They were illogical, and carried no weight. I always liked Laurie, but she clearly has issues that are not compatible with those of our Club. As the noted quotation goes: "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time". Clay/Lexi
Jason, slowly and surely members are falling out of this club, I'm not going to bicker back and forth or debate you over an issue I have with the club, you always seem to get the last words in and are always correct. As for some of the moderators on the form I appreciate what they do and as far as Lexi's remark about Laurie's FB page that's her business what she puts out on her page and why would you search her page to see what's on there other than to report back to members and stir the pot, what's on her own wall is her own damn business ! I'm sure if you had the authority you would suspend her FB account. Losing just one member has a trickle down effect, losing a national member means losing a regional member and possibly a chapter member as well. I was asked to join the national board awhile back by Ronnie Hux and I had to decline because I speak my mind and tell it like it is and his remark to me was "that's the kind of people we need". To me, there are too many ego's on the National level and I respect a few so I remain an officer on a regional level. The things I'm told & hear on a regional level don't make it to the national level because people are afraid to speak up or address their complaints to a national board members or afraid of being shut down. Out of respect for the rules & bylaws in this club and on this Fourm I have to bite my tongue or I'll be the next on banned. My question is, where do you think this club will be in 10 years based on the the rate members are dropping out verses new members joining in, younger members stepping up ?
Quote from: druby on April 16, 2024, 11:25:49 AMI was asked to join the national board awhile back by Ronnie Hux and I had to decline because I speak my mind and tell it like it is and his remark to me was "that's the kind of people we need".
Dan,
I agree with Ronnie; put your name out for the next election.
Most Boards consist of too many yes-men following the leader, 'going with the flow', not wanting to draw attention to themselves. The CLC Board needs people who will point out something that may be obvious to them but perhaps not everyone else.
After this year's election there should be at least a few new names and faces at Board meetings. Hopefully they won't hesitate to say what's on their mind, offer new ideas, look at something in a different way, share an opinion and show up here on the Forum for real time member opinions and suggestions.
Quote from: druby on April 16, 2024, 11:25:49 AM...as far as Lexi's remark about Laurie's FB page that's her business what she puts out on her page and why would you search her page to see what's on there other than to report back to members and stir the pot...
Not stirring the pot. If that was my intent I would have expanded on my comments. Just putting things into perspective and balance, as Jason did. And no, I would not ban her FB account. Laurie has a lot of supporters on this site, who may be wondering if the CLC is the bogeyman? While I would like to meet Laurie and see her car someday as we have a lot in common; I do not agree with the issues she has with the CLC. Club matters should be about Cadillac cars and membership fraternity. So if Laurie is reading this; I miss your Forum presence and hopefully we can hook up someday and chat Cadillac and (especially music). If we can't agree on CLC organization matters then we will have to limit our discussions to other areas of interest. Hope she does well with respect to her future endeavours. As for falling CLC membership, that matter is far more complex and cyclical, and is likely something that neither Laurie nor I could remedy. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: druby on April 16, 2024, 11:25:49 AMMy question is, where do you think this club will be in 10 years based on the the rate members are dropping out verses new members joining in, younger members stepping up ?
Dan, you asked the question and I will respond as honestly as I can. I think we have a real potential for growth if we play our cards right ... and it has nothing to do with 1 person in 12,000 online forum members that had to be temporarily suspended for breaking the rules.
Consider the following:
Print memberships for all clubs, and print subscriptions from everything from newspapers to magazines to other periodicals continue to fall. In fact due to printing, shipping and publications costs many magazines are going all digital. Last month out of the blue I received a note on the front of my This Old House Magazine stating this was the last print issue and that I needed to roll over my account to an online only account ... which I did.
- While the CLC's overall membership #'s have gradually declined, we are seeing a steady increase in e-memberships ... in fact just passing the 1000 mark. I still like my print copy of the Self-Starter and some will never go the e-membership only route, but we will all need to make that choice of whether or not it is worth it to pay that increasing price to print and ship a Self-Starter. I do think price for printing and shipping will only go up and if our club remains solvent our prices will have to go up.. and that is where we have to make that choice.
- Finally, There are hundreds of free Facebook, Instagram, X forums out there where anyone can just sign up and post away and interact... to a certain level. I am a member of several dozen Facebook groups, but you know what... they don't have Grand Nationals, They don't have National Driving Tours, They don't have Regions and Chapters where we can physically come together and show off our cars. They don't get a Self-Starter Magazine, electronically or otherwise. They don't have an International Directory with thousands of other members that we can contact for help, or just chit chat over the phone about our cars, or over a beer at the next region meet-up. There is so much more to being a CLC member than just a member of one of these social media groups and that is what we need to sell to all potential members and let them know about our benefits: benefits.cadillaclasalleclub.org (https://benefits.cadillaclasalleclub.org/)
I think our future is very bright ... if we let the thousands of potential members know, we have a club of real people, that do real things, and they can be part of our great club for only $25.
So, in 10 years, to be as honest as I can, I think we can easily have 10,000 to 20,000 or more online members. Realistically, I am not sure about print memberships. I hope it holds steady, but a lot of that depends on cost and member attitudes.
I think that in ten years it might be difficult to find anyone who has even heard of a LaSalle.
Even now not many people care about cars older than the 50s. The interest will be more about cars in the 60s-90s.
Cars older than the 50s are not really practical to drive and enjoy.
Quote from: badpoints on April 16, 2024, 04:14:23 PMI think that in ten years it might be difficult to find anyone who has even heard of a LaSalle.
Even now not many people care about cars older than the 50s. The interest will be more about cars in the 60s-90s.
Cars older than the 50s are not really practical to drive and enjoy.
All car clubs are niche groups, and there is always only going to be a certain smaller % of the general population that want to be a car club member. My last report shows the CLC has 5,762 members, with E-memberships up to 1,026. With that in mind the Studebaker club has almost 10,000 members. Studebaker have not been around since 1963, or over 60 years!. I don't expect millions of people to want to sign up to the CLC, but I know there is still a large untapped demographic that would surely pay $25 for the benefits our club affords.
I will give you an example of where we can expand --> Chapters. They are not confined to geographical constraints, and thru the connectivity of the internet we can come together instantly electronically. This is one reason I started the 63/64 Cadillac Chapter. which is currently up to about 400 members from 40 states, and 15 countries... not bragging ... well OK just a little. :-)
I really do think we have big potential here and have been encouraged by the new 59/60 Chapter. (Check out their website at 19591960cadillacs.com (https://19591960cadillacs.com/)) There are other Chapters just waiting to happen. As someone else recently pointed out to me, pull up your Directory and see how many Escalades are owned by members. An Escalade Chapter is waiting to happen, and begging for someone to step up and take the lead. (As an owner of a 2002 and 2013 EXT, I will proudly sign up as a Charter Member).
The bottom line is we are quibbling over the loss of a couple thousand print membership-level members. The potential is huge if we look beyond that and consider the other avenues for growth. Back to Studebaker with its 9000+ members, the CLC has a big advantage in that the Cadillac Brand has been around from 1902 to 2024, and Yes I see people putting down the newer Cadillacs, but there are folks like me that are just as proud to still be driving around in their 2002 EXT as their 1964 Coupe de Ville ... well almost!
All good points. A long time CLC member once told me that "Old cars are memories". That makes a lot of sense, as it does with so many other collectibles. As most other brands usually out sold Cadillac due to price point, there were often fewer Caddies on the road. That means fewer owners, fewer memories and years later a smaller "gene" pool in which to draw from. Other factors further complicate things, collectors aging out, tight economic times, space for parking, parts availability, etc. That said, I agree that there is still an untapped market. The interest our cars generate at shows is phenomenal. Clay/Lexi
At the last show more people looked at the 64 Cadillac than they did the 66 Oldsmobile...even though the 66 is immaculate.
Just as I thought !
Lots of constructive conversations here, and thinking about the greater good regarding mission, benefits, and growing membership. My only additional thought references several comments about Lexi's "Old cars are memories" point. Many of the new members' memories will be of Cadillacs from the 80's and NEWER. From the 80's on, Cadillacs are far more complicated, require more technical expertise of computer integration, etc. SO: Attending to the ownership and preservation needs of potential CLub members who are in their early sixties with fond memories of dad's 1988 Cadillac will involve another layer of benefits for those folks, especially in the areas of technical support. James
I have good luck with nice people at restaurants and gas stations.
People in their 70s and 80s always comment that a vintage Caddy reminds them of a lost loved one or a family road trip. I always take time out to talk.
Younger folks just want a gander and a photo...they cant believe GM made cars like that back in the day.
Quote from: jwwseville60 on April 17, 2024, 08:17:01 AMI have good luck with nice people at restaurants and gas stations.
People in their 70s and 80s always comment that a vintage Caddy reminds them of a lost loved one or a family road trip. I always take time out to talk.
Younger folks just want a gander and a photo...they cant believe GM made cars like that back in the day.
John I see that you are associated with a wide range of Cadillacs from various years. What Cadillac of yours has that effect on the younger people that "...they can't believe GM made cars like that"? Which one in your fleet gets the most attention? Clay/Lexi
My vote is the 1959 SDV
59 CDV for sure.
Quote from: Jason Edge on April 16, 2024, 06:18:58 PMAll car clubs are niche groups, and there is always only going to be a certain smaller % of the general population that want to be a car club member.
I don't expect millions of people to want to sign up to the CLC, but I know there is still a large untapped demographic that would surely pay $25 for the benefits our club affords.
The bottom line is we are quibbling over the loss of a couple thousand print membership-level members. The potential is huge if we look beyond that and consider the other avenues for growth.
I would go further and suggest CLC members 'sponsor' a new member by paying for their first year membership. We recently gifted an electronic membership to a younger Cadillac-finatic friend and hopefully he is enjoying his membership. He currently owns a Ford Retractable but his dream car is a 1957 Eldorado convertible. With a wedding planned for this year and likely children to follow in the next few years, it might be a while before his dream is fulfilled but always good to keep an eye on the goal.
Also planning to gift a membership to another friend. He can well afford CLC dues but has never followed through with joining. We're hoping once he sees the Self Starter magazine, reads the articles, sees show results, member stories, etc. that might be the impetus for him to continue as a CLC member after his gift year ends.
When Lauren Schweitzer Cody was previously living and involved with the Vegas Region, she was an amazing resource for ideas and suggestions how to connect with Cadillac dealers and owners / drivers of 'new' Cadillacs. The easiest opportunity is for members / Regions / Chapters to interact with the Dealers and try to get them involved with their group even if it is as simple as them providing newsletters, membership applications, event schedules or coordinating an event with the Dealer.
Quote from: Carfreak on April 17, 2024, 03:30:07 PMI would go further and suggest CLC members 'sponsor' a new member by paying for their first year membership. We recently gifted an electronic membership to a younger Cadillac-finatic friend and hopefully he is enjoying his membership. He currently owns a Ford Retractable but his dream car is a 1957 Eldorado convertible. With a wedding planned for this year and likely children to follow in the next few years, it might be a while before his dream is fulfilled but always good to keep an eye on the goal.
Also planning to gift a membership to another friend. He can well afford CLC dues but has never followed through with joining. We're hoping once he sees the Self Starter magazine, reads the articles, sees show results, member stories, etc. that might be the impetus for him to continue as a CLC member after his gift year ends.
When Lauren Schweitzer Cody was previously living and involved with the Vegas Region, she was an amazing resource for ideas and suggestions how to connect with Cadillac dealers and owners / drivers of 'new' Cadillacs. The easiest opportunity is for members / Regions / Chapters to interact with the Dealers and try to get them involved with their group even if it is as simple as them providing newsletters, membership applications, event schedules or coordinating an event with the Dealer.
While not a convertible I have a lead on a nice project 57 Eldo Seville. PM me for details.
Quote from: Lexi on April 17, 2024, 09:07:07 AMJohn I see that you are associated with a wide range of Cadillacs from various years. What Cadillac of yours has that effect on the younger people that "...they can't believe GM made cars like that"? Which one in your fleet gets the most attention? Clay/Lexi
Clay I know you asked John this question but I will chime in with my experience and hope he doesn't mind, My 41 Fleetwood attracts as much attention as any car I own from the 20 to 30 year old crowd, followed by my 55 and 56 and with these the color is the first thing mentioned. But if there is a Subaru anywhere around that is where their heart is. ;D
Quote from: Cadillac Jack 82 on April 17, 2024, 11:06:51 AM59 CDV for sure.
Not surprised. Plenty of eye candy with a '59 Cad. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Carfreak on April 17, 2024, 10:07:08 AMMy vote is the 1959 SDV
That would have been my vote as well. On my bucket list to own one someday. Came close about 30 years ago. Clay/Lexi
Very good suggestions by Sue regarding buying someone a CLC membership. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: marty55cdv on April 17, 2024, 04:07:52 PMClay I know you asked John this question but I will chime in with my experience and hope he doesn't mind, My 41 Fleetwood attracts as much attention as any car I own from the 20 to 30 year old crowd, followed by my 55 and 56 and with these the color is the first thing mentioned. But if there is a Subaru anywhere around that is where their heart is. ;D
Marty always good to hear other member's experiences. 1941 Cad is another one on my bucket list to own. Stunningly beautiful cars. Clay/Lexi
Maybe this should be a new thread. That said, while it's true that a lot of interest in our older cars is driven by memories from our past, I think there is also interest from younger people, from "Gen Whatever" all the way down to toddlers and pre-school kids, in these old space-age cars that they've never seen before. On several occasions I have come up to my car in a parking lot and found a father or grandfather explaining to an awestruck kid that there was a time when most cars looked like this. If time permits, I will invite them "inside" and encourage dad or granddad to take a picture of junior behind the wheel.
This is off topic but everyone else is chiming in with their stories. I just got my seats back from the upholsterer last week. I took my 1940 Lasalle woodie out for the first time in over a year for a spin around my subdivision. You'd think an unfinshished woodie would be a spectacle but It was invisible to anyone under 60. I got a few double takes from white haired men.
Somewhat back on topic - I disagree with those that are supporting Laurie's lack of decorum as acceptable. Social media, emails and other forums allow people to express bravery they would not do in person.
If Laurie would have acted the way she does in correspondence in person she likely would have been restrained or arrested.
Can you imagine her at the GN general membership meeting absolutely screaming, dropping f bombs, and making threats? Thank goodness she had the sense to drop out and move on.
Quote from: Bryan J Moran on April 17, 2024, 09:44:27 PMSomewhat back on topic - I disagree with those that are supporting Laurie's lack of decorum as acceptable. Social media, emails and other forums allow people to express bravery they would not do in person.
If Laurie would have acted the way she does in correspondence in person she likely would have been restrained or arrested.
Can you imagine her at the GN general membership meeting absolutely screaming, dropping f bombs, and making threats? Thank goodness she had the sense to drop out and move on.
;D Hi Bryan, obviously you have never visited Laurie's Facebook page, your entire statement is completely wrong concerning her. The language is probably from her life long career in the Navy.
I could tell from the first time I read her posts that you had to walk on egg shells around her.
She worshipped her mechanics that loved seeing her because she was paying for their new boat.
You could not state anything critical to her or there would be a long tirade.
Wonder what ever happened to the massive insurance caper with the Prius .
Quote from: Carfreak on April 17, 2024, 03:30:07 PMI would go further and suggest CLC members 'sponsor' a new member by paying for their first year membership. We recently gifted an electronic membership to a younger Cadillac-finatic friend and hopefully he is enjoying his membership. He currently owns a Ford Retractable but his dream car is a 1957 Eldorado convertible. With a wedding planned for this year and likely children to follow in the next few years, it might be a while before his dream is fulfilled but always good to keep an eye on the goal.
Also planning to gift a membership to another friend. He can well afford CLC dues but has never followed through with joining. We're hoping once he sees the Self Starter magazine, reads the articles, sees show results, member stories, etc. that might be the impetus for him to continue as a CLC member after his gift year ends.
When Lauren Schweitzer Cody was previously living and involved with the Vegas Region, she was an amazing resource for ideas and suggestions how to connect with Cadillac dealers and owners / drivers of 'new' Cadillacs. The easiest opportunity is for members / Regions / Chapters to interact with the Dealers and try to get them involved with their group even if it is as simple as them providing newsletters, membership applications, event schedules or coordinating an event with the Dealer.
How ironic it is for you to suggest that here in this thread LOL, Laurie became a member her by me sponsoring her membership. I did it because when I saw her passion and interest in her "New to her" Fleetwood and she was a retired military person. She was asking a lot of questions and explained her family history with used Cadillacs and how the 70 Fleetwood her dad had meant the most to her. She had strong intentions of making the one she got as exact to the one her dad had and she was following through on that, I just had to get her in as a member here so others would be more willing to help her.
I don't sponsor often but when I did I would simply call Mike Book and he would take care of everything, so simple. Sometimes just getting them in with some support keeps them here for good. Unfortunately after May 1st we will no longer have those looking around or asking questions here to sponsor because non-members won't be allowed to visit the forum.
Non-members will still be able to visit the Forum, they just won't be able to post.
I for the life of me cannot get over the objections to paying $25 to become an e-member.
Can these posters complaining about that give it up? $25???? YIKES.... if that pushes you into bankruptcy it's over for you. Sorry to speak some truth. I get it, times are tough and here's a bulletin for everyone out there they will be getting tougher. Its not a matter of if, but when.
If you really love your collector car, $25 is nothing in today's new normal of money printing. You make an old fashioned budget adjustment if you are truly that destitute. Give up going out to eat just once a year or do not buy a drink or two with a meal when eating out.
The acrobatics being done to complain about the $25 membership are illogical and ridiculous. I suspect some people just want free stuff and try to get as much free stuff as they can, or are just plain cheap. Without dues payers all of this goes away. Freeloaders beware nothings is free, someone else is paying for it.
Furthermore when this e-member idea came out I was not sure about it. As it turns out this might really help the CLC finances and enable it to survive.
All of my Caddies get attention by young folks, as Im sure everyone's does.
Hard to pick one out as the most exotic and emotion-stirring.
Yes, the 59. One little girl put pinky to fin tip and asked: "Daddy, why does this car look like an airplane?"
Quote from: jwwseville60 on April 18, 2024, 10:00:07 AMAll of my Caddies get attention by young folks, as Im sure everyone's does.
Hard to pick one out as the most exotic and emotion-stirring.
Yes, the 59. One little girl put pinky to fin tip and asked: "Daddy, why does this car look like an airplane?"
LMAO! Good one John. Reminds me of the time a pair of "Valley Girls" were staring at my car with one commenting "OMG...OMG...OMG...what is it?...I don't know...It looks like a dinosaur". Clay/Lexi
Quote from: gkhashem on April 18, 2024, 09:21:01 AMFurthermore when this e-member idea came out I was not sure about it. As it turns out this might really help the CLC finances and enable it to survive.
It wasn't my idea for electronic memberships but when there was an item on the January 2023 Winter Board Meeting Agenda to consider increasing Magazine Memberships, I did a survey of about three dozen other major marque vintage car clubs.
My research compiled data including number of members, how many pages and how often a publication is provided plus what types (black/white, color, electronic only, etc). Also whether the clubs were offering a printed or online member directory, ability to search other members online, multi year discounts, youth memberships and other unique features.
Results showed the majority of other clubs do not offer a printed directory and most of the larger clubs do offer electronic membership. Interesting was the Ford Mercury Restorers' Club offered only electronic memberships. While most of us 'older folks' enjoy holding a paper copy in our hands, their reasoning was significantly reduced costs due to no paper, no printing, no postage or problems with the Postal Service. A few clubs offered only electronic memberships to international members, again to avoid postal problems and costs.
How many CLC board members are there? And how many of those participate in or even read the forums?
Quote from: gkhashem on April 18, 2024, 09:16:08 AMI for the life of me cannot get over the objections to paying $25 to become an e-member.
Can these posters complaining about that give it up? $25???? YIKES.... if that pushes you into bankruptcy it's over for you. Sorry to speak some truth. I get it, times are tough and here's a bulletin for everyone out there they will be getting tougher. Its not a matter of if, but when.
If you really love your collector car, $25 is nothing in today's new normal of money printing. You make an old fashioned budget adjustment if you are truly that destitute. Give up going out to eat just once a year or do not buy a drink or two with a meal when eating out.
The acrobatics being done to complain about the $25 membership are illogical and ridiculous. I suspect some people just want free stuff and try to get as much free stuff as they can, or are just plain cheap. Without dues payers all of this goes away. Freeloaders beware nothings is free, someone else is paying for it.
It is just that everything has some sort of fee now and it is more of the point of it than the cost. Most content on the internet was free for many years.
I work with a guy who is very well off and he is jumping through hoops to get rid of his cable bill, even though it is insignificant to him cost wise. He is making his own H.D. antenna.
After a while things add up. Pay for your golf, camping, swimming pool, BMW and whatever forum. Just like the multiple streaming services you need to watch sports and shows.
Quote from: Highwayman68 on April 18, 2024, 08:02:47 AM;D Hi Bryan, obviously you have never visited Laurie's Facebook page, your entire statement is completely wrong concerning her. The language is probably from her life long career in the Navy.
No but cmon. Others have stated she was outrageous on social media. I don't know how to find her or most anyone on social media so I have to base that on what others have stated.
I guess she has her supporters and her (not) supporters. She is direct, which is fine. But per other members, and profanity laced since deleted responses, she was not able to discuss in a respectful manner.
I have been there. I was in a major fight for control of the BCA about 7 years ago. My camp lost, control of the BCA is in the hands of the pro judging crowd and those of us that had a different path have dropped out. I still count a lot of friends from the Buick world.
I was not happy with Cornerstone, voiced it here I believe in a respectful but forceful manner, without f bombs and personal attacks.
Navy? Whatever. My family has a lot of servicemen including my brother (Marines) and Cousin (Navy 23 years retired),Dad etc and none of them drop profanity laced attacks on people.
Quote from: gkhashem on April 18, 2024, 09:16:08 AMI for the life of me cannot get over the objections to paying $25 to become an e-member.
Can these posters complaining about that give it up? $25???? YIKES.... if that pushes you into bankruptcy it's over for you. Sorry to speak some truth. I get it, times are tough and here's a bulletin for everyone out there they will be getting tougher. Its not a matter of if, but when.
If you really love your collector car, $25 is nothing in today's new normal of money printing. You make an old fashioned budget adjustment if you are truly that destitute. Give up going out to eat just once a year or do not buy a drink or two with a meal when eating out.
The acrobatics being done to complain about the $25 membership are illogical and ridiculous. I suspect some people just want free stuff and try to get as much free stuff as they can, or are just plain cheap. Without dues payers all of this goes away. Freeloaders beware nothings is free, someone else is paying for it.
I hesitate this 'member only' policy with regard to the forum will not net the revenue stream or furtherance of the club as anticipated in the big picture. Majority of people that find a Cadillac in their life are not 'clubbie' people. But their forum input as a 'moocher' adds flavor, value and interest to themselves as well as the paid club members. It should be encouraged and appreciated!
That said, I do understand the complication of scammers and abusers. There is always the option of cutting ones nose in spite of the face?
Today 'everybody' has a membership, from television, news, magazines, apps, credit scores, internet security, product warrantees, not to mention each car club make and type, venue... but hey, if each is only $25 year...what's the problem?
Forever the optimist ... I can add, I hope I am wrong!
Quote from: Carfreak on April 18, 2024, 08:44:43 AMNon-members will still be able to visit the Forum, they just won't be able to post.
How will us regular members know that they are here to personally invite them to join or sponsor their first year?
For several years, anybody registering to the CLC Forum should be seeing a notification suggesting they consider joining the CLC. Everyone using the Forum should be aware of the option.
Starting in May, it sounds like the process will be modified to include a REQUIRED section to include CLC Membership Number. Previously including this information was requested.
Moderators / Administrators will review the Membership Request and confirm they are a CLC member. All CLC members have access to the Online Membership Directory through the website (separate from Forum). So for example if you see someone lambasting the decision to only allow members to post here, you can easily check to see if they are a CLC member or not, usually they are not. :)
If someone is not a CLC member and they attempt to Register here, they will probably see information How to Join and so forth. If the non-member reads the Forums and find they want to post and participate further, it should not be difficult for them to figure out how to do so.
You can sponsor whoever you want although I generally sponsor friends who may already own a Cadillac and not be a member or someone who has an interest in owning one.
I was looking forward to her display at the GN
she is a classic
Needed a carry permit to travel to show
Had a "mid year code 93" paint finish
drive it like you stole it (except 30$ later it seems to be less than roadworthy),indeed,she has broken down more with her car serviced by "WORLD FAMOUS SHOP" than my last 50 years of 1970 ownership
But...
I was really looking to engage her wrath about the guy with the perfect mint 70 Fleetwood that he never drives,the one she called the "statue"
bring her back,she generates views,and in a world of keyboard tough guys,bombast,bluster,and empty threats,she is more the norm than the exception
Quote from: Jason Edge on April 16, 2024, 01:04:09 PMDan, you asked the question and I will respond as honestly as I can. I think we have a real potential for growth if we play our cards right ... and it has nothing to do with 1 person in 12,000 online forum members that had to be temporarily suspended for breaking the rules.
Consider the following:
Print memberships for all clubs, and print subscriptions from everything from newspapers to magazines to other periodicals continue to fall. In fact due to printing, shipping and publications costs many magazines are going all digital. Last month out of the blue I received a note on the front of my This Old House Magazine stating this was the last print issue and that I needed to roll over my account to an online only account ... which I did.
- While the CLC's overall membership #'s have gradually declined, we are seeing a steady increase in e-memberships ... in fact just passing the 1000 mark. I still like my print copy of the Self-Starter and some will never go the e-membership only route, but we will all need to make that choice of whether or not it is worth it to pay that increasing price to print and ship a Self-Starter. I do think price for printing and shipping will only go up and if our club remains solvent our prices will have to go up.. and that is where we have to make that choice.
- Finally, There are hundreds of free Facebook, Instagram, X forums out there where anyone can just sign up and post away and interact... to a certain level. I am a member of several dozen Facebook groups, but you know what... they don't have Grand Nationals, They don't have National Driving Tours, They don't have Regions and Chapters where we can physically come together and show off our cars. They don't get a Self-Starter Magazine, electronically or otherwise. They don't have an International Directory with thousands of other members that we can contact for help, or just chit chat over the phone about our cars, or over a beer at the next region meet-up. There is so much more to being a CLC member than just a member of one of these social media groups and that is what we need to sell to all potential members and let them know about our benefits: benefits.cadillaclasalleclub.org (https://benefits.cadillaclasalleclub.org/)
I think our future is very bright ... if we let the thousands of potential members know, we have a club of real people, that do real things, and they can be part of our great club for only $25.
So, in 10 years, to be as honest as I can, I think we can easily have 10,000 to 20,000 or more online members. Realistically, I am not sure about print memberships. I hope it holds steady, but a lot of that depends on cost and member attitudes.
I'm really not trying to be an agitator here, but this post just misses the mark. Four paragraphs and a lot of words, all to basically say "Give us $25 and you can be part of the club". I'm sorry, that's just not a successful business model or successful growth model for forums or car clubs. People have to feel like they're getting something for their money. Word are not something. For the guy who just wants to post here and doesn't go to Cadillac specific car shows, they get nothing for their $25.
I think some of you forget that a lot of people just enjoy owning a classic car and enjoy driving it, without needing to be part of a club. "It's only $25" is not a reason to spend money if you don't get any tangible benefit from it.
Quote from: Jason Edge on April 16, 2024, 06:18:58 PMAll car clubs are niche groups, and there is always only going to be a certain smaller % of the general population that want to be a car club member. My last report shows the CLC has 5,762 members, with E-memberships up to 1,026. With that in mind the Studebaker club has almost 10,000 members. Studebaker have not been around since 1963, or over 60 years!. I don't expect millions of people to want to sign up to the CLC, but I know there is still a large untapped demographic that would surely pay $25 for the benefits our club affords.
I will give you an example of where we can expand --> Chapters. They are not confined to geographical constraints, and thru the connectivity of the internet we can come together instantly electronically. This is one reason I started the 63/64 Cadillac Chapter. which is currently up to about 400 members from 40 states, and 15 countries... not bragging ... well OK just a little. :-)
I really do think we have big potential here and have been encouraged by the new 59/60 Chapter. (Check out their website at 19591960cadillacs.com (https://19591960cadillacs.com/)) There are other Chapters just waiting to happen. As someone else recently pointed out to me, pull up your Directory and see how many Escalades are owned by members. An Escalade Chapter is waiting to happen, and begging for someone to step up and take the lead. (As an owner of a 2002 and 2013 EXT, I will proudly sign up as a Charter Member).
The bottom line is we are quibbling over the loss of a couple thousand print membership-level members. The potential is huge if we look beyond that and consider the other avenues for growth. Back to Studebaker with its 9000+ members, the CLC has a big advantage in that the Cadillac Brand has been around from 1902 to 2024, and Yes I see people putting down the newer Cadillacs, but there are folks like me that are just as proud to still be driving around in their 2002 EXT as their 1964 Coupe de Ville ... well almost!
You have to ask yourself this question: With so many more Cadillacs on the road and so many more people who own and drive them, why do you only have a fraction of the membership vs a much smaller niche marque?
Ever watched Shark Tank? The second people start talking about "The market for X product is X billions every year, and If I could just capture 1% of that.." they instantly get shut down by the sharks. Why? Because that's not a business model. In your case here, you have to ask what this club/forum is doing wrong vs. the much smaller niche marque that is eating your lunch. Until you figure that out and solve that problem, you shouldn't even be thinking about putting up more barriers to entry.
You also have to ask, are you in it just for revenue behind membership? Or are you really in it for the love of the cars? I'm not aware of anyone who pays to join car clubs just to fatten the wallets of the leaders of it.
Quote from: Carfreak on April 18, 2024, 08:44:43 AMNon-members will still be able to visit the Forum, they just won't be able to post.
Things like that will ensure that they stay non-members, I assure you.
Quote from: gkhashem on April 18, 2024, 09:16:08 AMI for the life of me cannot get over the objections to paying $25 to become an e-member.
Can these posters complaining about that give it up? $25???? YIKES.... if that pushes you into bankruptcy it's over for you. Sorry to speak some truth. I get it, times are tough and here's a bulletin for everyone out there they will be getting tougher. Its not a matter of if, but when.
If you really love your collector car, $25 is nothing in today's new normal of money printing. You make an old fashioned budget adjustment if you are truly that destitute. Give up going out to eat just once a year or do not buy a drink or two with a meal when eating out.
The acrobatics being done to complain about the $25 membership are illogical and ridiculous. I suspect some people just want free stuff and try to get as much free stuff as they can, or are just plain cheap. Without dues payers all of this goes away. Freeloaders beware nothings is free, someone else is paying for it.
It astonishes me that people so completely fail to understand that it is not about the money. Normally I see comments like this come from people who, when selling something and asking too much for it, automatically assume that everyone is broke when they aren't willing to pay too much for something. That is a foolish assumption in most cases, as it very obviously is here. This total lack of perception and self-awareness is part of the reason why so many old timers don't understand why young folks are getting into other things and other cars.
Quote from: badpoints on April 18, 2024, 11:29:05 AMIt is just that everything has some sort of fee now and it is more of the point of it than the cost. Most content on the internet was free for many years.
I work with a guy who is very well off and he is jumping through hoops to get rid of his cable bill, even though it is insignificant to him cost wise. He is making his own H.D. antenna.
After a while things add up. Pay for your golf, camping, swimming pool, BMW and whatever forum. Just like the multiple streaming services you need to watch sports and shows.
Most discussion forums on the internet are still free. Basically all of the big successful ones are. Some people here have it COMPLETELY backwards. The reality is that the BIGGER you are with more participants, the more you can get away with charging for things here and there because everyone wants to participate. The smaller you are, the more that will just drive even more people away. This has been repeated over and over and over again on the internet. Many once-popular forums are now dying or long since dead because greed crept in and people tried to monetize them, only for them to fail completely.
Here's a suggestion: For the folks who believe in it that much and say "it's only $25", why not voluntarily raise your bill to $50? $100? "Anybody who will pay $50 for a cab will surely pay $75." Right?? Step up and put your own money where your mouth is. If it's only money and you have it to spend, spend it! That will keep the club alive and the forums open for everyone. Right?
Quote from: V63 on April 18, 2024, 12:33:31 PMI hesitate this 'member only' policy with regard to the forum will not net the revenue stream or furtherance of the club as anticipated in the big picture. Majority of people that find a Cadillac in their life are not 'clubbie' people. But their forum input as a 'moocher' adds flavor, value and interest to themselves as well as the paid club members. It should be encouraged and appreciated!
That said, I do understand the complication of scammers and abusers. There is always the option of cutting ones nose in spite of the face?
Today 'everybody' has a membership, from television, news, magazines, apps, credit scores, internet security, product warrantees, not to mention each car club make and type, venue... but hey, if each is only $25 year...what's the problem?
Forever the optimist ... I can add, I hope I am wrong!
If I had to pay $25 for every forum I posted on even once a year, I would be spending close to a thousand dollars a year every year. And what about all the dog park visits? Trips to the beach? Hikes in the forest? Let's charge $25 for everything and eventually you'll need a six figure salary just to pay for all the things that used to be free and should be free. That'll teach all those freeloading youngans!
If the regions were to stop promoting membership, would the National survive ? It's the regions that really do the "grunt" work promoting the club. Remember, in order to join a region you must join the National club. ! I often wonder how many National members are not a member of a region, if you can afford to be a National member why can't they made to join their local region ? Regions by far have more activities for members then what the National has to offer. What do they offer of than the Self Starter, Driving Tour, Grand National event, yes the Self Starter is a wealth of info to most , but everything I mentioned above cost an arm and a leg to attend. Almost $250.00 to attend the GN with a car and that's not including gas, hotel, tours or food. Add all this up and you're close to $3,000 !
Quote from: druby on April 18, 2024, 03:37:11 PMIf the regions were to stop promoting membership, would the National survive ? It's the regions that really do the "grunt" work promoting the club. Remember, in order to join a region you must join the National club. ! I often wonder how many National members are not a member of a region, if you can afford to be a National member why can't they made to join their local region ? Regions by far have more activities for members then what the National has to offer. What do they offer of than the Self Starter, Driving Tour, Grand National event, yes the Self Starter is a wealth of info to most , but everything I mentioned above cost an arm and a leg to attend. Almost $250.00 to attend the GN with a car and that's not including gas, hotel, tours or food. Add all this up and you're close to $3,000 !
I was in the New England Region for 4-5 years and all there 99% of the activities were between Boston and Providence RI. This is over 120 miles from me and I often was not able to meet other region members or go to get togethers easily. So I eventually gave that regional membership up. That region is really not a New England Region but a south of Boston or Providence regional club.
So if you make me join that I quit. Many of us in Northern New England have no regional options. It's one thing to go to a GN once a year another is make multiple 2-3 hour one way trips to regional events.
Quote from: badpoints on April 18, 2024, 11:29:05 AMIt is just that everything has some sort of fee now and it is more of the point of it than the cost. Most content on the internet was free for many years.
I work with a guy who is very well off and he is jumping through hoops to get rid of his cable bill, even though it is insignificant to him cost wise. He is making his own H.D. antenna.
After a while things add up. Pay for your golf, camping, swimming pool, BMW and whatever forum. Just like the multiple streaming services you need to watch sports and shows.
That was my point, make a decision and pay for what you feel is worth it. You cannot have it all but you should not expect members who pay to shoulder the cost for your entertainment. If we continue on the same path and costs go up should my dues double to keep this forum free for big spenders like the well off guy you work with.
Also a member posting here made a good point, seems like those objecting are not CLC members.
The principal of the matter to me I am tired of paying for others who can afford to pay. That is the point to me. It's like those people that say "It's not about the money" well I hold onto my wallet around those people. Everyone cares about the money to some extent.
Quote from: MultipleCaddies on April 18, 2024, 03:06:40 PMIf I had to pay $25 for every forum I posted on even once a year, I would be spending close to a thousand dollars a year every year. And what about all the dog park visits? Trips to the beach? Hikes in the forest? Let's charge $25 for everything and eventually you'll need a six figure salary just to pay for all the things that used to be free and should be free. That'll teach all those freeloading youngans!
You assume a forum is free to run, the dog park is free to maintain. Wrong someone is paying for it and you would be called a free rider in economic jargon. I guess government grants are free too. If you need to spend $1000 to visit forums yearly you must have too much free time on your hands. Again this seems a silly argument. You are active in almost 40 forums?
Here is a definition of a free rider problem.
The free rider problem is an issue in economics. It is considered an example of a market failure. That is, it is an inefficient distribution of goods or services that occurs when some individuals are allowed to consume more than their fair share of the shared resource or pay less than their fair share of the costs.
Free riding prevents the production and consumption of goods and services through conventional free-market methods. To the free rider, there is little incentive to contribute to a collective resource since they can enjoy its benefits even if they don't. As a consequence, the producer of the resource cannot be sufficiently compensated. The shared resource must be subsidized in some other way, or it will not be created. So it is OK for members to subsidize you and all the other "free riders". I remember a time when people, even poor people would refuse charity out of pride. Today it is the norm to expect something for free even if you are wealthy.
Free riding occurs when some individuals are allowed to consume more than their fair share of the shared resource or pay less than their fair share of the costs
Therefore,
Free riding owners of Cadillacs (plural) are are paying less than their fair share than those with none or one cadillac? 🤦🏻�♂️🙄
Quote from: gkhashem on April 18, 2024, 04:07:14 PMYou assume a forum is free to run, the dog park is free to maintain. Wrong someone is paying for it and you would be called a free rider in economic jargon. I guess government grants are free too. If you need to spend $1000 to visit forums yearly you must have too much free time on your hands. Again this seems a silly argument. You are active in almost 40 forums?
Here is a definition of a free rider problem.
The free rider problem is an issue in economics. It is considered an example of a market failure. That is, it is an inefficient distribution of goods or services that occurs when some individuals are allowed to consume more than their fair share of the shared resource or pay less than their fair share of the costs.
Free riding prevents the production and consumption of goods and services through conventional free-market methods. To the free rider, there is little incentive to contribute to a collective resource since they can enjoy its benefits even if they don't. As a consequence, the producer of the resource cannot be sufficiently compensated. The shared resource must be subsidized in some other way, or it will not be created.
So it is OK for members to subsidize you and all the other "free riders". I remember a time when people, even poor people would refuse charity out of pride. Today it is the norm to expect something for free even if you are wealthy.
Couple big fallacies here, I'll happily point them out for you. For one, how I choose to spend my time, where and why is neither your business, nor relevant to this forum. "You must have too much free time on your hands" is nothing more than a personal attack intended to get an emotional response, prompted in large part because you know you can't rely on the strength of whatever other arguments you intend to make.
Speaking of.. this free rider philosophy you refer to is not relevant to internet forums in any way. The defacto modus operandi of almost all internet forums is that they are free to use by anyone and everyone, and supported/maintained financially via donations made by members, ad revenue or related products/merchandise sold. Some forums use a paid subscription model to access certain parts of the forum. Almost every forum on the internet manages to keep itself going using a combination of some or all of these. This forum is no exception to that. The model only fails when a forum is grotesquely mismanaged, or when the popularity of the forum dwindles due to a general lack of interest in the content. Many forums exist that are many times larger than this one, with much greater traffic, thus higher hosting bills, etc., yet they make if work via the well established models I listed above. None that I am aware of require payment in order to view or participate at all.
Craigslist and wikipedia are two large examples of websites that thrive on a small percentage of their user base paying the bills. Why isn't this free rider problem killing them? Craigslist reached a billion dollars in revenue just a handful of years ago. A website where the large majority of users pay nothing to use it, but who's traffic is absolutely necessary to the continued popularity of the site.
I am on at least 5-6 different shooting forums, and a couple of them require paid subscription in order to view or use the classified sections. I don't have a big problem with this, but it's still far from ideal. It cuts down on the quick resellers who are there just to profit on ammo sales when prices go up, but not otherwise participate in any discussions. I suggested that a better method would be to restrict usage of the classifieds to members above a certain post count, with a sufficient reputation score associated (as some forums keep track of). That would reward members who actively participate in the discussion forums, which is the whole reason they exist in the first place. But, most people fall into the monetization trap and can't resist the opportunity when it presents itself. That is almost certainly exactly what is going on here. Understand, my position is that free speech and the ability to have free conversations on this or any other topic is NOT something that should be monetized or regulated in any way. Doing so goes against the very principle of free speech in the first place.
And before you compare this forum to your home living room, I'll point out the fallacy of that absurd argument. Discussion forums exist to facilitate public speech, and they are in no way comparable to your private living room in your private home. This is an area where most people have gotten this wrong in the internet era, and thankfully a few people here and there have started speaking up about it, but not nearly enough.
Bottom line: internet forums do not work like fast food restaurants. Never have, never will. If you don't learn to understand and accept that reality, you will continue to watch as participation and membership declines, unwilling to admit that the ship is sinking and unwilling to do anything about it. You will not be successful in convincing the majority of people to pay to participate in forums like this. They will all just die off and everything will move to facebook, tiktok, instagram, etc. That result is absolutely guaranteed with moves like this. Thankfully most forums aren't foolish enough to implement such asinine policies.. yet.
Quote from: V63 on April 18, 2024, 04:31:02 PMFree riding occurs when some individuals are allowed to consume more than their fair share of the shared resource or pay less than their fair share of the costs
Therefore,
Free riding owners of Cadillacs (plural) are are paying less than their fair share than those with none or one cadillac? 🤦🏻�♂️🙄
Another silly argument whether I have one or ten cars I or anyone who owns many cars
does not add to the cost of running the forum. Illogical try.
There are benefits to the national club. For $25 you get access to the virtual magazine, membership lists, membership directory, tech section with contacts and the now the forum.
It does cost the club to offer this forum, so I've got no issue with making it a requirement now. We will lose some posters and readers, gain a few members, and get rid of some whiners. All in all, it's a win for me.
I don't know if the proposed Forum changes will increase membership or not, but I make these presumptions:
1) It costs money to run this Forum.
2) Dues paying members have been instrumental in paying for it, while others use it for free, often with valuable input.
3) How one spends their discretionary income is a personal matter.
4) I don't know if the CLC is being mismanaged.
5) Free stuff on the internet has historically provided expectations of free service to net users and has generated unfair comparisons with other models.
6) Nothing stays the same and collecting/hobby trends & models change.
I trust the CLC has a back up plan should the one they are about to implement fails. Clay/Lexi
Another silly argument whether I have one or ten cars I or anyone who owns many cars
does not add to the cost of running the forum. Illogical try.
[/quote]
Perfect! I do agree! It was an analogy because I chose NOT to use silly or illogical in my opinions of opposing arguments.
Quote from: David King (kz78hy) on April 18, 2024, 05:37:05 PMThere are benefits to the national club. For $25 you get access to the virtual magazine, membership lists, membership directory, tech section with contacts and the now the forum.
It does cost the club to offer this forum, so I've got no issue with making it a requirement now. We will lose some posters and readers, gain a few members, and get rid of some whiners. All in all, it's a win for me.
Will you regret your support for this policy if/when this forum becomes stagnant and irrelevant years in the future as a result?
Situations like this inevitably expose the underlying attitude that the powers that be have towards their subjects. "My way or the highway and if you don't like it you can leave, whiner" is a hell of a take when forums and clubs like this are already in decline. Some folks even recognize the fact that it is in decline, yet this uppity attitude still exists, and barriers still go up. I'd feel bad, if the further decline wasn't so predictable and preventable.
I swear, the old guard in the classic car world have just learned NOTHING about why certain parts of this world have been declining for decades while other parts of it prosper.
Let's just give the new plan some time. 6 months. The change is coming in high season for driving, showing, restoring. If the pitch is right - meaning as soon as a non member comes on to view and post, there is a pop up mentioning - not requiring - that to post you could (not should) join for $25 and get the following benefits. Then provide a sample SS within easy access.
What's the metric? If membership has declined over the past year by 500, then that (hypothetically) means we should lose 250 members in 6 more months. Again, just an example.
If the tally is done in November and the club has a net gain of 100 members and 75% of that are electronic memberships then the change would be a success.
Small sample size, but rather then pre-emptively calling it a bad idea that will fail, the right way to go is to give it 6 months.
I am inherently suspicious of those who think they have all the answers, no matter how well meaning they may be. Having watched the rise and collapse of various collector fields over the past 7 decades as well as being in the business and associated with others so employed, there are a lot of variables at play. It is hard to predict what will happen in the long run. The Administrators advise that very few dues paying CLC members actually use the Forum on a regular basis. So perhaps this system has been on life support/stagnant for quite some time? I would expect far less traffic after May 1st. Whether it rebounds is anybody's guess.
Permitting non-paying members continued full access priviledges would help keep traffic up, but at the expense of those members who are paying the freight to keep the lights on, so to speak. I won't use the term "Free Loader", as there are many valuable contributors who are not CLC members. As CLC Administrators have stated; the current econonomic climate requires changes. Personally, it is not equitable to continue to pay for someone's else's benefits, ad infinitum. That is not reasonable. But up until now that is what has been happening. Not sure what the answer is, but hopefully it can be sorted out in a manner that is fair and fiscally responsible. To borrow a line from the movie The Godfather, "After all we are not communists". So a charge for services seems reasonable. After a pilot period the Administrators can re-assess, and make changes to suit. Hard to comment further as I don't keep the CLC books. Clay/Lexi
Because six months of damage can takes years to recover from once the damage sets in.
Anyone who has participated on multiple forums over many years already knows this is a failed policy. But people who are actually involved in the day to day runnings of the forum should absolutely have done their homework already and seen that nobody else runs forums this way. Of all the people, they're the ones who really should know better. They'd have done their research by going around to all the other big players to see how they do it, and see that none of them have gone to this model. Forums much larger than this one. This relatively small forum that is already in decline isn't going to be the trailblazer that somehow changes the entire game and successfully turns the proven forum model upside down. Like I said before, the benefits of membership weren't enough to entice some people to join before - forcing them into sure as hell isn't going to now. Many people (like myself) take it as a form of gentle extortion. Many others may simply feel their intelligence is being insulted by the membership benefits schpiel. Regardless, it's a model that is very, very likely to backfire. At least they won't be able to say they weren't warned in advance.
Quote from: Lexi on April 18, 2024, 08:22:02 PMI am inherently suspicious of those who think they have all the answers, no matter how well meaning they may be. Having watched the rise and collapse of various collector fields over the past 7 decades as well as being in the business and associated with others so employed, there are a lot of variables at play. It is hard to predict what will happen in the long run. The Administrators advise that very few dues paying CLC members actually use the Forum on a regular basis. So perhaps this system has been on life support/stagnant for quite some time? I would expect far less traffic after May 1st. Whether it rebounds is anybody's guess.
Permitting non-paying members continued full access priviledges would help keep traffic up, but at the expense of those members who are paying the freight to keep the lights on, so to speak. I won't use the term "Free Loader", as there are many valuable contributors who are not CLC members. As CLC Administrators have stated; the current econonomic climate requires changes. Personally, it is not equitable to continue to pay for someone's else's benefits, ad infinitum. That is not reasonable. But up until now that is what has been happening. Not sure what the answer is, but hopefully it can be sorted out in a manner that is fair and fiscally responsible. To borrow a line from the movie The Godfather, "After all we are not communists". So a charge for services seems reasonable. After a pilot period the Administrators can re-assess, and make changes to suit. Hard to comment further as I don't keep the CLC books. Clay/Lexi
Membership dues are by no means the only source of revenue for a forum like this. Ad sales, merchandise, and donations are the three primary sources of revenue for almost all internet forums, and thousands of forums are able to exist using some or all of those. The idea that a few members have to pay for everyone is just flawed.
Why should I pay for someone else's Forum priviledges? Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on April 18, 2024, 08:29:47 PMWhy should I pay for someone else's Forum priviledges? Clay/Lexi
Did you read my post?
Of course I did. Do not patronize me. Unless already so positioned, why not run for CLC office and make the changes you feel are required. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on April 18, 2024, 08:36:30 PMOf course I did. Do not patronize me. Unless already so positioned, why not run for CLC office and make the changes you feel are required. Clay/Lexi
Your reply indicated that you hadn't. I listed three other revenue sources that do not involve you paying for other's posting privileges, that are widely used by almost all other forums on the internet. Almost like you just ignored that part to continue on with your own point.
And that in fact summarizes what so often happens when forums head towards failure: the powers that be simply do not listen to any opinions that counter their own. Totally inflexible and unwilling to adapt or accept that their way may be misguided or worse. That appears to be exactly what is happening here on this forum.
Quote from: MultipleCaddies on April 18, 2024, 08:27:54 PMMembership dues are by no means the only source of revenue for a forum like this. Ad sales, merchandise, and donations are the three primary sources of revenue for almost all internet forums, and thousands of forums are able to exist using some or all of those. The idea that a few members have to pay for everyone is just flawed.
Let me get this right, donations are going to work when people will not shell out $25? Sure. Have you donated?
If you were in the CLC you would know they do sell merchandise (see the online store), they sell ads in the magazine, they have banner ads on this forum. Did you read them? They get some corporate donations from Cadillac.
These are not enough to pay all the bills, dues are needed to keep the lights on. Sorry but this is the reality of the situation.
Run for CLC office and put into place the policies that you think will work. I don't know what the answers are. I could be wrong, but we are in an era with a dwindling "gene pool" as the enthusiasts age out and market trends and interest are changing. The CLC has a tiger by the tail. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on April 18, 2024, 08:29:47 PMWhy should I pay for someone else's Forum priviledges? Clay/Lexi
If the perspective is that of paying for nonmember privileges? There is a glass 1/2 empty.
A better perspective is paying to be a member because it finds enjoyment.
To be clear, I never resented any non-member's participation on this Forum. For a time I was in that position myself but joined shortly after. Yes, to get the full glass. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: Lexi on April 18, 2024, 08:36:30 PMOf course I did. Do not patronize me. Unless already so positioned, why not run for CLC office and make the changes you feel are required. Clay/Lexi
Clay, that won't happen because J. Doyle aka MultipleCaddies is not a CLC member and has stated many times and in several ways he has no intention of ever joining.
He just wants throw his opinions around and almost demand they be followed otherwise this forum will collapse and so will the Club.
OMG - - how did the CLC ever survive for over 40 years before this Forum was ever created?!?!
We are a 66 year old club with Regions, Chapters, website with a few decades of electronic versions of our magazines, tech advisors, Authenticity Manuals, National Meets, Driving Tours, a non-profit Museum with assets over a couple million dollars, and so on - plus we have an online Forum.
FWIW, a nominal percentage of our dues paying CLC members use this Forum.
Quote from: gkhashem on April 18, 2024, 08:42:59 PMLet me get this right, donations are going to work when people will not shell out $25? Sure. Have you donated?
If you were in the CLC you would know they do sell merchandise (see the online store), they sell ads in the magazine, they have banner ads on this forum. Did you read them? They get some corporate donations from Cadillac.
These are not enough to pay all the bills, dues are needed to keep the lights on. Sorry but this is the reality of the situation.
Donations come typically from the people who participate the most and get the most out of forums. The key word is *donation*. Not *mandatory expense* that all must pay or ye shall not pass. Donations are voluntary. Organizations, forums, groups, what have you, often receive donations from people because they put in an effort above and beyond that some people get significant value from, so they donate accordingly. You simply will not get that kind of support from people who have not even used the forum yet. Casual enthusiasts and those who may just have a singular question about their car every year or two just aren't going to spend the money, they will simply ask their question elsewhere.
With all these efforts they're making, why can't they pay the bills? Is it because of mismanagement behind the scenes? Too many chiefs, not enough indians? Again, thousands - yes, THOUSANDS of forums are able to pay their bills this way, including forums much larger and much more active than this one. What is this forum doing wrong? Further still, why aren't you and others asking these questions instead of just toeing the party line? These are not my opinions regarding other forums being able to pay their bills, these are well established facts. You have just as much access to the internet as I do, you can confirm just as easily as anyone else. If my calculations are correct, 6,200 paying CLC members, at $25/person equates to $155k/year. That alone should way more than suffice to let this forum flourish, nevermind all the additional revenue. What on earth is it doing wrong??
I have not contributed to this forum, because I have rarely used it. I have, however, contributed to several of the forums which I have used regularly, some of them for many years, on which I have thousands of posts, and have used their classified sections to buy and sell things. The amount I'm willing to contribute varies depending on how much use I get out of the place and for how long. And I did not contribute to any of them prior to making my first post. Not even close. That's the reality for most people who use forums. Casual, off and on usage, where opening the wallet just doesn't make sense. There are some other forums which I semi-frequent that, despite being a valuable source of info at times, also have a very clique-like mentality about them. If you're an outsider and you rock the boat too much, you get ostracized. Forums like that don't get a dime of my money.
The whole purpose of donating is because you value something and believe in it enough where you want to support it, voluntarily. Much like tipping. If the service is good, you get a good tip.. AFTER the meal. Not before. When I walk into a sandwich shop and they have a big arrogant tip jar staring me in the face, or have the touchscreen where I have choose my tip or no tip, those places get zero tip regardless of the service. Why? Because the arrogance of asking for one in advance, and essentially guilting people into giving. Tipping culture has been in the news a lot recently, and people have finally started rebelling against it. This kind of policy here is really no different. Not a chance I'm going to contribute money to a forum without knowing what I'm going to get out of it. None of the benefits being touted here mean anything to me, as I don't go to Cadillac specific events, don't read the magazines, don't get involved other than possibly participating here. I go to much larger shows like Hot August Nights, where wide ranges of vehicles are welcome. I love my Cadillacs, but I love a whole lot of other vehicles as well, so if I'm going to contribute, it's going to be to those organizations that really give you a lot for your money. I'm just not seeing that here for me, and many other people see it the same. Several forums have fit that bill for me and I've contributed accordingly. None of them have made it a requirement, except the couple that have made it a requirement only for classified sections.
Quote from: Carfreak on April 18, 2024, 09:46:16 PMClay, that won't happen because J. Doyle aka MultipleCaddies is not a CLC member and has stated many times and in several ways he has no intention of ever joining.
He just wants throw his opinions around and almost demand they be followed otherwise this forum will collapse and so will the Club.
OMG - - how did the CLC ever survive for over 40 years before this Forum was ever created?!?!
We are a 66 year old club with Regions, Chapters, website with a few decades of electronic versions of our magazines, tech advisors, Authenticity Manuals, National Meets, Driving Tours, a non-profit Museum with assets over a couple million dollars, and so on - plus we have an online Forum.
FWIW, a nominal percentage of our dues paying CLC members use this Forum.
The club will survive just fine. The FORUM will not. But you knew that, you just want to try to twist the facts to suit your side of the argument.
Quote from: MultipleCaddiesBlah blah blah blah blah blah I am great blah blah blah I know a lot blah blah blah I have a lot of cars blah blah blah without me and other non dues paying members using the CLC forum it will cease to exist blah blah blah
Guess what. A lot of us have many cars, have been working on cars for several decades, can contribute a lot of knowledge, experience, tech advice, opinions, assistance, suggestions and humor but we are also paying dues to support OUR CLUB and the expenses of this Forum.
Off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you how many Cadillacs I currently own, would have to stop and count. Wouldn't even try to remember most of them from over the last 40+ years nor the number of other GM and non-GM vehicles in that quotient either. Does that make me better than anyone else? NOPE. Nor does you throwing out claims of your prowess and intelligence make you any better than us either -- it just makes you an egotistical self-proclaimed expert.
You just want to twist the facts to support YOUR CLAIMS to suit your side of the argument.
Interesting how you allege poor management, bad administration and throw out almost-slanderous comments towards a group and a Board that you have no knowledge, no connection, no personal experience other than you have posted on OUR Forum. Anyone who tries to tell me how great they are, how smart they are, their opinions are better than everyone else - I usually stop listening.
The Forum will survive just fine.
Where ya at Barry Wheeler, can't believe you haven't thrown your 2 cents in !!!!!🤣
Quote from: Carfreak on April 18, 2024, 10:14:34 PMGuess what. A lot of us have many cars, have been working on cars for several decades, can contribute a lot of knowledge, experience, tech advice, opinions, assistance, suggestions and humor but we are also paying dues to support OUR CLUB and the expenses of this Forum.
Off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you how many Cadillacs I currently own, would have to stop and count. Wouldn't even try to remember most of them from over the last 40+ years nor the number of other GM and non-GM vehicles in that quotient either. Does that make me better than anyone else? NOPE. Nor does you throwing out claims of your prowess and intelligence make you any better than us either -- it just makes you an egotistical self-proclaimed expert.
You just want to twist the facts to support YOUR CLAIMS to suit your side of the argument.
Interesting how you allege poor management, bad administration and throw out almost-slanderous comments towards a group and a Board that you have no knowledge, no connection, no personal experience other than you have posted on OUR Forum. Anyone who tries to tell me how great they are, how smart they are, their opinions are better than everyone else - I usually stop listening.
The Forum will survive just fine.
That's fine. Just like the ever-arrogant J. Bruce Ismay found out after the Titanic hit the iceberg, the ship was in fact sinkable, despite his protestations to the contrary. Captain EJ Smith at one time said he couldn't imagine a ship like the Titanic sinking, declaring something to the effect of "modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that". These men and many others believed the ship couldn't sink, and let their arrogance get in the way of prudence and logic. You see where I'm going with this? Blah blah blah blah blah.........
I know that I have this effect on certain people. It's almost always the folks who are utterly incapable of seeing any perspective other than their own, and take personal offense to anyone challenging them on anything. My perspective is well-founded, based on huge amounts of precedent seen all over the internet. Very very easy for anyone who wants to do their research to confirm. It's not my opinion, it's established fact. I would encourage anyone to try to prove me wrong. The humongous majority of internet forums simply don't work this way. Some folks simply cannot handle someone presenting facts that differ from their mindset. Well I couldn't care less about whether or not that offends the old guard - what needs to be said, needs to be said. I've long had great disdain for people who choose not to rock the boat in favor of keeping people's delicate feelings intact, even when things are obviously going wrong. This is one of those occasions where something simply has to be said.
How many ads are the non-paying forum users willing to tolerate? They should be shown that many -1. The dues paying members should see zero.
That's the model that works. Everyone pays, it's just that the revenue comes from a different source when they don't join.
This is a proven model from other forums as well as all the apps on our phones. I get to try the app "for free" but with ads. When I realize the value of it, or get tired of the ads, I buy it. Or I realize it's of no value, I'm not out any money, and I'm gone.
I'm not convinced that closing out non-paying people is a good plan. I would not have joined had I not been able to experience the value of the content here. But I'm also an anomaly in that I'll pay/join for the sake of direct support for a place like this... but I have to have the chance to see the value first.
Now, if it's a matter of blocking out the bots and scammers, then that's a different matter.
Quote from: skinny_tom on April 18, 2024, 11:21:49 PMHow many ads are the non-paying forum users willing to tolerate? They should be shown that many -1. The dues paying members should see zero.
That's the model that works. Everyone pays, it's just that the revenue comes from a different source when they don't join.
This is a proven model from other forums as well as all the apps on our phones. I get to try the app "for free" but with ads. When I realize the value of it, or get tired of the ads, I buy it. Or I realize it's of no value, I'm not out any money, and I'm gone.
I'm not convinced that closing out non-paying people is a good plan. I would not have joined had I not been able to experience the value of the content here. But I'm also an anomaly in that I'll pay/join for the sake of direct support for a place like this... but I have to have the chance to see the value first.
Now, if it's a matter of blocking out the bots and scammers, then that's a different matter.
This is exactly it. Paying members see no ads and get the club benefits, non-paying members see ads. Maybe they don't have access to the classifieds. Just like you said, that is a long-proven model that absolutely works.
Since I have no religion, the CLC is all I have.
Thats worth even a steep $27.55!
This thread has become an example of J. Doyle getting his 1 pound argument for free. Very clever of him.
https://www.google.com/search?q=monty+python+buy+an+argument&rlz=1C1GCEB_enUS999US999&oq=monty+python+buy+an&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgAEAAYgAQyBwgAEAAYgAQyBggBEEUYOTIICAIQABgWGB4yCAgDEAAYFhgeMggIBBAAGBYYHjINCAUQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAYQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAcQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAgQABiGAxiABBiKBTIKCAkQABiABBiiBKgCCLACAQ&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:20eb4881,vid:uLlv_aZjHXc,st:0
Quote from: David King (kz78hy) on April 19, 2024, 09:52:00 AMThis thread has become an example of J. Doyle getting his 1 pound argument for free. Very clever of him.
https://www.google.com/search?q=monty+python+buy+an+argument&rlz=1C1GCEB_enUS999US999&oq=monty+python+buy+an&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgAEAAYgAQyBwgAEAAYgAQyBggBEEUYOTIICAIQABgWGB4yCAgDEAAYFhgeMggIBBAAGBYYHjINCAUQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAYQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAcQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAgQABiGAxiABBiKBTIKCAkQABiABBiiBKgCCLACAQ&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:20eb4881,vid:uLlv_aZjHXc,st:0
LMAO! Clay/Lexi
Quote from: David King (kz78hy) on April 19, 2024, 09:52:00 AMThis thread has become an example of J. Doyle getting his 1 pound argument for free. Very clever of him.
https://www.google.com/search?q=monty+python+buy+an+argument&rlz=1C1GCEB_enUS999US999&oq=monty+python+buy+an&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgAEAAYgAQyBwgAEAAYgAQyBggBEEUYOTIICAIQABgWGB4yCAgDEAAYFhgeMggIBBAAGBYYHjINCAUQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAYQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAcQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAgQABiGAxiABBiKBTIKCAkQABiABBiiBKgCCLACAQ&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:20eb4881,vid:uLlv_aZjHXc,st:0
It's actually just another example of how soft most people have become, that they simply cannot handle debating someone who has strongly held opinions and actually stands behind them. Instead of debating on the merits, they resort to insults and what they think are clever quips to get others laughing and on their side. Much easier to make someone else the villain than it is to actually debate the point, I've learned over many years of this.
This thread is revolving in circles and is not longer serving a positive purpose for the club or the forum.