Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

I'm just saying goodbye and thanks for a lot of fun and advice, I hope I've been able to help some of you?

I can't use the forum any longer unless I join the CLC. I don't wish to do so, doubly by being pushed into joining.

I don't understand why those that run the Club have done this?

Best to all. Paul

I have been trying to avoid saying anything about it. Since I have been apart of several forums that have ended I do not take it personally. And the last were free to me.

I am a paying member here and once I became a paying member my expectations for customer service is different from when it was free.

But this approach to me is to much like a decision someone from Jersey would make.

Your not in the union your out.
That picture isn't a Cadillac. That is not our union your out.

"I have a problem"
Doesn't matter the union has decided for you.

I agree my friend. It has been a privilege serving with you people. But fortunately I have nearly completed my restoration of my Caddy after much help from this forum so alas I shall not be needing its help no longer anyway. But as a 27 year old I was so hoping to share my newfound wisdom and experience if anyone needed it. For free. Anyway, cheerio... :-X 

Quote from: Clewisiii on April 18, 2024, 10:40:35 AMI am a paying member here and once I became a paying member my expectations for customer service is different from when it was free

Yup.  Me too.  How many others? 

IMHO this change will probably accelerate the decline in membership, given newbies will no longer have a gateway for discussion and information about their Cadillac issues
Greg Surfas

The question is, for those who stand to gain from what they think will be some additional income from new memberships: Is that small amount of additional money you will get worth the decline of the forum? That WILL be the end result. For every person who speaks up and says they will leave, there are many others who will do so quietly or will never even register in the first place.

This is incredibly short-sighted and backwards thinking, whoever came up with this scheme.

This thread should be moved to the general area.  Nothing to fix here other than club policy and plenty of opinions regarding that flowing at the moment.

Opportune place to say my goodbyes as well. Didn't help that I've got kind of an orphan (late sixties doesn't get the same love), and it's a hacked-up lowrider project. 

Thanks to those who have helped me, and a tip of the hat to the people I've helped.  Happy motoring!

Its 25.00 a YEAR not a month.  Two people can't eat at Mcdonalds one time for that.  >:( 

I'm not happy with this decision either, I think it is a mistake too.  But --- $25.00 a year --- less than $2.10 a month to support this club which has given many/most/all of us so much information, knowledge, guidance and camaraderie?   

 You guys who dont want to 25 bucks a year. Are you kidding me? I wood gladly pay 200.00 a year for the help and knowledge they have given me. Ostigese,,,,  thats Polish for   YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOUR SELF. Go eat a chiken leg,,,,,,BYEEEEE

Quote from: 60eldo on April 18, 2024, 09:45:59 PMYou guys who dont want to 25 bucks a year.

And with the Exchange Rate US$25 is something like $200 Canadian these days. 

Just kidding. I have a lot of Polish and Canadian relatives & friends.  :)

Quote from: marty55cdv on April 18, 2024, 02:18:55 PMIts 25.00 a YEAR not a month.  Two people can't eat at Mcdonalds one time for that.  >:( 

Doesn't matter if it was $25 for a lifetime membership. The people making comparisons to McDonald's meals and other nonsense are all willfully missing the point.

Quote from: 60eldo on April 18, 2024, 09:45:59 PMYou guys who dont want to 25 bucks a year. Are you kidding me? I wood gladly pay 200.00 a year for the help and knowledge they have given me. Ostigese,,,,  thats Polish for   YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOUR SELF. Go eat a chiken leg,,,,,,BYEEEEE

It is this kind if entitled attitude that drives forums into the ground. EXPECTING people to contribute when that is not how it's done anywhere else is a mistake and will drive people away. Doesn't matter whether or not you're willing to contribute, it only matters if the masses are, and the people of the internet have proven time and time again that they are not when it comes to posting on forums. Like it or not, that IS the way it is.

I've been a member for many years. long before the forum existed. I joined in my mid-twenties, close to 40 years ago (yikes), and I always felt like it was a good value, even back then, when dues were $25 IIRC for a membership, including mailed Self-Starter. That makes it a screaming deal now in comparison to the inflated cost of everything else, including our cars.

But I certainly see the benefit of having the forum open to non-members, both as a way to get new members/increase interest, and also to get the benefit of cars and parts for sale by non-members. Over the years I have bought and sold a bunch of parts, and also bought a car off the forum, although the majority of those transactions, including the car, were with fellow members.

I think one issue is that many of the "powers that be" in the Club are not on the forum as far as I can tell, and may not fully appreciate it. Hopefully that will change as some of the new "forum-friendly" board members come in.

A huge mistake by the club for not allowing non members post and give advice and their knowledge concerning Cadillac's & LaSalle's !!!!! Who brought this idea before the board to vote on, who was the person that got the ball rolling on this idea ? Somebody put this idea in front of the board to vote on !!!!! I know, it's a "secret society" and we choose not to disclose that information.

Jason Edge, VP CLC
 I'm asking you as a board member and me as a Director of a region who put the item of "not allowing non-members to post on the forum" in front of the board to vote on, and we're ALL board members in favor of this idea ?

Quote from: druby on April 18, 2024, 11:03:36 PMand we're ALL board members in favor of this idea ?

I don't know who put the idea on the Winter Board Meeting Agenda but to the best of my recollection YES the decision was pretty much unanimous in favor to make the change.

Dan, I'm telling you again, if you want to help make decisions, join the Board. I can't be the only one riling them up all the time.

I'm just curious.  Can anyone tell me why the people who are leaving the forum are so against the idea of joining the CLC.  It's not expensive; certainly not compared to the cost of restoring and maintaining a vintage car. 

Sue, if you attended the meeting I'm sure you know the answers, somebody has the unredacted minutes from the Winter board meeting.

Quote from: Jay Friedman on April 18, 2024, 11:18:59 PMI'm just curious.  Can anyone tell me why the people who are leaving the forum are so against the idea of joining the CLC.  It's not expensive; certainly not compared to the cost of restoring and maintaining a vintage car. 

Because "it's only $25" is not reason enough on its own to spend $25.

To all the naysayers: Name another GM car club discussion forum that allows non-club members to post.

The CLC has spent thousands of dollars over the years on bandwidth to allow nonmembers to post and has not seen a good return on its investment. No, I'm not the one that brought this topic to the board.

It's difficult for a family of four to eat at McDonald's any more for $25. And that kind of money buys you a full year's membership in the CLC. And you have the privilege of attending the annual Grand National, which just grows larger each year.

Quote from: Art Director on April 19, 2024, 12:49:44 AMTo all the naysayers: Name another GM car club discussion forum that allows non-club members to post.

The CLC has spent thousands of dollars over the years on bandwidth to allow nonmembers to post and has not seen a good return on its investment. No, I'm not the one that brought this topic to the board.

It's difficult for a family of four to eat at McDonald's any more for $25. And that kind of money buys you a full year's membership in the CLC. And you have the privilege of attending the annual Grand National, which just grows larger each year.

Car *club* forum? Irrelevant, because for every make-specific car *club* forum out there, there is a much larger, much higher traffic forum for that make that does not require paying club membership to post. Performance Years vs. Pontiac Registry, HUGE difference in traffic. Lincolns Online vs. Lincoln Owner's Club, Classic Oldsmobile vs. Oldsmobile Club of America. Cadillac Forums vs. this joint.. Shall I go on?

Now granted, there are some obvious differences between many of these. Like for example, Cadillac Forums fosters an environment that is much friendlier to folks with newer (mid-70's and up) Cadillacs. Also, have a look at the Lincoln Owner's club vs. Lincolns Online. LOC is absolutely dead, while LoL is bustling. What's the common denominator? One costs money and is dead, the other doesn't and is very active.

Doesn't matter whether or not you understand why this is the case, it only matters that you understand that it IS the case, whether you like it or not.

Edit: Also, the "privilege" of attending the Grand National? That you have to pay an even larger amount to register for, and that for me is 2,500 miles away, so it is simply not in the cards until maybe after I retire in 20-25 years. It's funny how people throw things like that out so casually as if going to that or other club events is just some trivial thing for everyone. When was the last time you held an event anywhere near lake Tahoe? Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who owns a classic Cadillac lives on the east coast, so these events that I have the "privilege" of attending are simply not in the cards anyway. $25 doesn't buy much in today's world, but spending $25 to gain "privileges" that I won't be taking advantage of anyway is just $25 for nothing. Most people aren't in the habit of spending money to get nothing.

Quote from: MultipleCaddies on April 19, 2024, 02:28:23 AMEdit: Also, the "privilege" of attending the Grand National? That you have to pay an even larger amount to register for, and that for me is 2,500 miles away, so it is simply not in the cards until maybe after I retire in 20-25 years. It's funny how people throw things like that out so casually as if going to that or other club events is just some trivial thing for everyone. When was the last time you held an event anywhere near lake Tahoe? Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who owns a classic Cadillac lives on the east coast, so these events that I have the "privilege" of attending are simply not in the cards anyway. $25 doesn't buy much in today's world, but spending $25 to gain "privileges" that I won't be taking advantage of anyway is just $25 for nothing. Most people aren't in the habit of spending money to get nothing.

Your lack of knowledge as to what CLC Membership gives Members attending a Grand National is Public Liability Insurance coverage.   I haven't read the policy, but there is a part of the Insurance that ensures that no non-member is covered to take in the events that the CLC hold during a GN, and therefore cannot legally partake, apart for attending the General Public open day.

I had to join the CLC to attend in 2002, and stayed a member, even though I am on the other side of the world.   Even took my own car to the 2008 GN (purchased it in NY the year before and flying over and driving it to Cherry Hill, then shipped her home)   Members from many countries around the world attend every year, so distance is not a problem.   The Entry Fees charged to attend the GN covers the cost of the many events associated with the GN.   Without the Entry Fee, the costs to each participant would be huge.

Remember that the Membership Fee is for more than just the ability to post on the Internet Forum.   Not to forget that the CLC also hosts a Facebook Site.

Bruce. >:D   

I've been here for 20 years and intend to stay. The price of admission is cheap and even though I can't always attend the GN's, they are fun and you can make some lifetime friends.

I don't agree with everything that happens here. Non-members may not be able to post, but will they still be able to read? Lot's of information can be had just by a simple search on the Googler.

The Self Starter is great 'Throne Room' reading material. It's easy to get lost in it. Yes, I still like a paper magazine. The laptop is too heavy to carry around and the phone is too small for my old peepers anymore.

Before y'all run away, stop and think about it. What do you pay PER MONTH for your useless cable TV that has nothing but garbage on it?

I had suggested years ago that some of the  contributors who were not members of the club be restricted with their postings.  Many car clubs are experiencing declining memberships.  It does not mean the rest of us have to listen to many outsiders chiming in who have no vested interest, (a very inexpensive vested interest).

I intend on staying. I am 69 and I don't know how much time on earth I still have ( does anyone? ) , however I do really value being able to communicate with like minded people who Love old Cadillac's. I really appreciated when they made the change making membership less expensive if you didn't take a hard copy of the Self Starter as I am a full size rear wheel drive Cadillac fan and so many featured Cadillac's now are not. That said I understand both sides of this argument yet I intend to stay now that the photo's thing has been fixed.

I pay the extra because I like a paper copy, though I do miss the Directory. Or did I just not get it the past few years?

Quote from: druby on April 18, 2024, 11:19:51 PMSue, if you attended the meeting I'm sure you know the answers, somebody has the unredacted minutes from the Winter board meeting.

I already wrote my response about the topic origination

Quote from: CarfreakI don't know who put the idea on the Winter Board Meeting Agenda but to the best of my recollection YES the decision was pretty much unanimous in favor to make the change.

Minutes have not yet been posted on the Directors' webpage. 

Quote from: Big Fins on April 19, 2024, 06:36:30 AMI do miss the Directory. Or did I just not get it the past few years?

Hasn't been printed the past couple years due to covid-induced significantly increased paper & postage costs.

Printed copies have been offered at an additional cost for members who require one but the online Directory when you log into the Member area of the CLC website is easy to use and always handy.

I will miss being able to post. I liked being helpful by posting pictures for anyone wanting to know what was original on a 67 SDV. Besides the point of forums should be free, my wife would give me crap about wasting money on my Cadillac. She is probably right, the hours I spend working on my Caddy is financially a waste of time, but it makes me happy. A few last pictures

Due to age and care for my wife, I haven't been able to attend Board Meetings for some time. But, as I understand it, the main reason for this change is that it is a way to alleviate spammers and the like. None of us like friends to "get up and leave" for any reason. But those who prey on others for a living are not going to pay $25 just so they can tell you that their life long buddy has the part you desperately need, and just give him a call and he'll send it to you.

I've been a member since 1964 when the dues were $7.50 per year. That's sixty years. In all of that time, I have NEVER been scammed, cheated, or flim-flammed out of a penny by a fellow CLC member. True, I am only one person, but I've trusted people that I've never met in person simply because they are a CLC member.

And if nothing else, many (read "most") have become friends, even though we probably won't ever meet. I remember when I had a NOS 1941 60S stone guard for sale. I got a call from a young lady that was almost in tears giving me an offer that she admitted they "couldn't really afford right now," but she wanted to get it for her husband. I was almost as heartbroken as she was to have to tell her that I'd gotten a NOS pair of stone guards for my 1941 Series 67 in trade the day before. That was fifty years ago, and I'm still sorry that I couldn't help her.

The CLC is not as big as some of the car clubs referred to, yes. Never will be. But it is an organization that is composed of men and women who you can't stay mad at, will help you at any turn, and share their knowledge (and parts) with you.

Gay and I were getting onto the Mass Turnpike headed for the second Boston GN. At the side of the road was a 1949 Cadillac with the hood up. I pulled over onto the side of the on ramp, and put down the window. Whomever it was thanked me, but they already had help from another member.

Many years ago, I goofed up judging Terry Wenger's 1939 Series 61 convertible coupe at an Indy show. He was very disappointed with me. Then, not too long after that, I had the absolute nerve to call him up and ask if he could board my daughter while she completed an internship in St. Louis.

He didn't even ask Nancy, his wife, before saying that "Sure, she can stay with us." And for icing on the cake, when Kimberly hit East St. Louis, her car stopped running. Not only did Terry come and get her, then return for the car, but Nancy gave her, her VW to drive to her work next morning.

This is the kind of friend that you're going to miss when you leave the Forum, just because you think you've been "put upon" by a bunch of ignorant, un-feeling bozos that only want your $25.

If that's your feeling, after all the hopefully helpful tips and leads (and friendships) you've gotten from the Forum, there's not much more we can say, except that the door is never locked, and we'll welcome you back.

One last thought... How many of you that are going to "pull up stakes and leave," if we "saw the error of our ways," and cancelled the membership requirement, would be the first to complain of being ripped off by a scammer. "Why can't the stupid officers do something about us getting ripped off?" Sometimes, you just can't please anybody!

It will hurt now, but will REALLY hurt in the years to come.
When I got our 1st Caddy 10 years ago, I was all over the place searching for good info. If a site was a pay site, I just moved on. Some sites are worthless, but once you've paid, you've paid.
At a minimum there should be a 90day trial period for new members.
But, yes. This change is the beginning of the end here due to lack of new blood.

Quote from: badpoints on April 19, 2024, 08:34:28 AMI will miss being able to post. I liked being helpful by posting pictures for anyone wanting to know what was original on a 67 SDV. Besides the point of forums should be free, my wife would give me crap about wasting money on my Cadillac. She is probably right, the hours I spend working on my Caddy is financially a waste of time, but it makes me happy. A few last pictures

Forums are not free since every club pays for a website on the Internet.  Members of the Cadillac-LaSalle Club pay for this as part of their annual dues. It's really a good value just to get the monthly magazine with its technical information and classified ads.  Hopefully you will reconsider. 

Quote from: Barry M Wheeler #2189 on April 19, 2024, 09:13:48 AMMany years ago, I goofed up judging Terry Wenger's 1939 Series 61 convertible coupe at an Indy show. He was very disappointed with me. Then, not too long after that, I had the absolute nerve to call him up and ask if he could board my daughter while she completed an internship in St. Louis.

He didn't even ask Nancy, his wife, before saying that "Sure, she can stay with us." And for icing on the cake, when Kimberly hit East St. Louis, her car stopped running. Not only did Terry come and get her, then return for the car, but Nancy gave her, her VW to drive to her work next morning.

One last thought... How many of you that are going to "pull up stakes and leave," if we "saw the error of our ways," and cancelled the membership requirement, would be the first to complain of being ripped off by a scammer. "Why can't the stupid officers do something about us getting ripped off?" Sometimes, you just can't please anybody!

That's a true friend to come to EAST St Louis and assist.

I have tried to be on both sides of this issue. I am leaning toward the pay the $25 to join. Or more for print copy. 

There are a LOT of free forums. Art Director isn't correct. AACA Forums for one are free. Studebakers Drivers Club, noted as a club that is larger then the CLC, is free.

On the other hand, a very specific club/forum is the Mark II Forum and you can't get "premium" content there without a "donation" and that is not a club just a forum. 

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 19, 2024, 04:14:58 AMYour lack of knowledge as to what CLC Membership gives Members attending a Grand National is Public Liability Insurance coverage.   I haven't read the policy, but there is a part of the Insurance that ensures that no non-member is covered to take in the events that the CLC hold during a GN, and therefore cannot legally partake, apart for attending the General Public open day.

I had to join the CLC to attend in 2002, and stayed a member, even though I am on the other side of the world.   Even took my own car to the 2008 GN (purchased it in NY the year before and flying over and driving it to Cherry Hill, then shipped her home)   Members from many countries around the world attend every year, so distance is not a problem.   The Entry Fees charged to attend the GN covers the cost of the many events associated with the GN.   Without the Entry Fee, the costs to each participant would be huge.

Remember that the Membership Fee is for more than just the ability to post on the Internet Forum.   Not to forget that the CLC also hosts a Facebook Site.

Bruce. >:D   

Did you miss the part where I said I live 2,500 miles away and attending is simply not in the cards? ALL "benefits" related to it are not relevant to me as a result.

How do they do the board meetings?  I assume its online being a international group? 

Is there a show of hands as to how many of you really have the knowledge as what the costs are for running a site this size? Every post, every picture uses a little bandwidth. With the size of this forum, the costs of the hosting, the forum provider and the costs of maintaining it are brutal.

I have no knowledge of the costs for this place, but it has to run anywhere from $300-$500 per month. The hosting and server costs are out of this world. Even for my little corner of the Internet, we pay a couple of hundred a year and then get in there and clean out dead posts and pictures, just so I don't have to beg and plead for a few bucks to keep the show on the road. I have some generous members who have no issues in keeping it up and as long as I can, I will. The forum software is free, the 'webmaster' works pro-bono and the mods really don't have to do anything because we all act accordingly.

Donating $25/yr for the information garnered here can't be beat. If you don't want to support the club, what else can be said but, Seeee Yaaa. Do the math. $0.068 cents per day. Yet you'll spend $100 for a crappy meal in a restaurant. I don't understand your way of thinking.

Quote from: Big Fins on April 19, 2024, 12:50:14 PMIs there a show of hands as to how many of you really have the knowledge as what the costs are for running a site this size? Every post, every picture uses a little bandwidth. With the size of this forum, the costs of the hosting, the forum provider and the costs of maintaining it are brutal.

I have no knowledge of the costs for this place, but it has to run anywhere from $300-$500 per month. The hosting and server costs are out of this world. Even for my little corner of the Internet, we pay a couple of hundred a year and then get in there and clean out dead posts and pictures, just so I don't have to beg and plead for a few bucks to keep the show on the road. I have some generous members who have no issues in keeping it up and as long as I can, I will. The forum software is free, the 'webmaster' works pro-bono and the mods really don't have to do anything because we all act accordingly.

Donating $25/yr for the information garnered here can't be beat. If you don't want to support the club, what else can be said but, Seeee Yaaa. Do the math. $0.068 cents per day. Yet you'll spend $100 for a crappy meal in a restaurant. I don't understand your way of thinking.

Every person who makes this "meals vs. forum support" argument totally misses the point.

I can't make it any clearer than this: The HUGE majority of internet forums are free to use for all people. It has always been this way, it will always be this way. People simply will not pay just to have the ability to post on a forum.

The cost of CLUB membership is not relevant to forum participation. Most people on this forum aren't going to go to club events, they don't want the magazine, they aren't going to participate in the club activities in any way. They just want to read and post on the forum. That is how ALMOST ALL forums work. It's not just me being a cheapskate. These misguided arguments trying to make that the point are just false and come from a position of ignorance. Internet forums have always been about the ability to freely participate and always will be, or they will cease to exist. It doesn't matter whether or not you understand the how and why of that, it IS the reality. When people put up paywall barriers to forums, they show that they have a fundamental lack of understanding of how internet forums operate.

You will not be able to get most people to pay for something that most people believe should be free. The opinions of a comparative few paying club members in a small echo chamber do not make it a reality for everyone on the internet. Most people simply will not pay just to participate on forums. Nothing you say or do will change that. This forum will not be the trailblazer that somehow changes the fundamentals of the internet and human nature.

Just a couple of comments:
I thought that forum members who joined before "May" were grandfathered... not certain where I read that but I thought it was May of a prior year which would prevent new spammers from causing an issue.

After seeing Paul's topic I noticed "Reminder to CLC members, please make sure that your CLC number is stored in the relevant field in your forum profile. This is important for the upcoming change to the Forums access, More information can be found at the..." But I don't see a "relevant field" in the forum profile. I also went to the general discussion topic and I don't see it there.

I joined the CLC when there was a reduced cost option around the pandemic but other than posting here and contributing to the Self-Starter I don't use the CLC (but I do appreciate it of course). Anyway I have no idea what my CLC number is. After replying I will check to see if it's listed near my name in the membership search.

As someone else mentioned I too found the CLC Forum through a Google search. I contributed and read for years before joining. As that other member mentioned, had it cost something to join the forum, I would have looked elsewhere. I would have never found the forum and I would have never joined the CLC. I think the point of the forum dwindling is very likely going down the path of paid forum membership.

CT (ChevyTalk) is free but you cannot post photos without a basic paid membership. CadillacForums is very good, no membership fees, easier to post photos and is generally overall easier to use.

To me the CLC Forum needs to find another solution. I don't mind paying the membership fee but I will mind paying for something which is a gutted shell of what it was... That's what I see happening. There are already very few topics which fall in the age range I work on most and going in this direction will accelerate the decline.

Scott

Quote from: 79 Eldorado on April 19, 2024, 01:03:37 PMJust a couple of comments:
I thought that forum members who joined before "May" were grandfathered... not certain where I read that but I thought it was May of a prior year which would prevent new spammers from causing an issue.

After seeing Paul's topic I noticed "Reminder to CLC members, please make sure that your CLC number is stored in the relevant field in your forum profile. This is important for the upcoming change to the Forums access, More information can be found at the..." But I don't see a "relevant field" in the forum profile. I also went to the general discussion topic and I don't see it there.

I joined the CLC when there was a reduced cost option around the pandemic but other than posting here and contributing to the Self-Starter I don't use the CLC (but I do appreciate it of course). Anyway I have no idea what my CLC number is. After replying I will check to see if it's listed near my name in the membership search.

As someone else mentioned I too found the CLC Forum through a Google search. I contributed and read for years before joining. As that other member mentioned, had it cost something to join the forum, I would have looked elsewhere. I would have never found the forum and I would have never joined the CLC. I think the point of the forum dwindling is very likely going down the path of paid forum membership.

CT (ChevyTalk) is free but you cannot post photos without a basic paid membership. CadillacForums is very good, no membership fees, easier to post photos and is generally overall easier to use.

To me the CLC Forum needs to find another solution. I don't mind paying the membership fee but I will mind paying for something which is a gutted shell of what it was... That's what I see happening. There are already very few topics which fall in the age range I work on most and going in this direction will accelerate the decline.

Scott

Another man who values his nightly McDonald's cheeseburger more than the $0.068 cents a day it takes to feed this starving child in Ethi... whoops, sorry, wrong forum!

J Doyle,
I said I have no problem paying the membership. My real concern is that the forum will decline unless there's another solution. I won't pay for something until I have a measure of the value. If you restrict potential members before giving them a free sample the forum and the CLC is the loser in the end.

I did search to see if the member list had my CLC number. It does not but here's what I noticed. I searched on part of my name and I got a page of "hits". Take a look at the list. There are 2 CLC members with a total of 6 posts.

Scott

Quote from: 79 Eldorado on April 19, 2024, 01:18:02 PMJ Doyle,
I said I have no problem paying the membership. My real concern is that the forum will decline unless there's another solution. I won't pay for something until I have a measure of the value. If you restrict potential members before giving them a free sample the forum and the CLC is the loser in the end.

I did search to see if the member list had my CLC number. It does not but here's what I noticed. I searched on part of my name and I got a page of "hits". Take a look at the list. There are 2 CLC members with a total of 6 posts.

Scott

I'm in 100% agreement with you. I assumed you had read my posts above on the subject. I was making a joke about the commenter above who sounds more like someone trying to guilt-shame people into giving money for starving kids in Africa than someone trying to get people to join the club.

Scott, the place you want to enter your number when you find it is on the same page where you can change your password, there is a specific field for CLC number.  My understanding is its this field that will be the initial sort for the lock out process.  If your number is there they say nothing will change.  If your number isn't listed in that field its going to be some sort of manual process to get those people back in which could take some time. 

Also note that if you change any data on that page like entering your CLC number you have to enter your password so make sure you have that handy too.  I know there are likely many of us that checked the stay logged in box so may not have or password handy. 

Quote from: MultipleCaddies on April 19, 2024, 11:31:49 AMDid you miss the part where I said I live 2,500 miles away and attending is simply not in the cards? ALL "benefits" related to it are not relevant to me as a result.

I don't recall since it really wasn't pertinent, did you mention living in Calf? 

There are two Calf CLC Regions (NorCal, SoCal) which IF you were a member, you could join those groups to enjoy their camaraderie, shows, meetings, tours, events, etc etc. 

National events move around to different areas of the country; if the GN is in one area, they try to have a Driving Tour in a different area. And they attempt to move GNs around also - they have been held in Albuquerque (2023), Vegas and San Marcos Texas - not always on the east coast. Also Chicagoland and Louisville were more centrally located. 

Quote from: Carfreak on April 19, 2024, 02:53:35 PMI don't recall since it really wasn't pertinent, did you mention living in Calf? 

There are two Calf CLC Regions (NorCal, SoCal) which IF you were a member, you could join those groups to enjoy their camaraderie, shows, meetings, tours, events, etc etc. 

National events move around to different areas of the country; if the GN is in one area, they try to have a Driving Tour in a different area. And they attempt to move GNs around also - they have been held in Albuquerque (2023), Vegas and San Marcos Texas - not always on the east coast. Also Chicagoland and Louisville were more centrally located. 

Hi Sue,

Now there is a third region in California, the Palm Springs Region.  In addition, the CLC is exploring West Coast locations for the 2027 Grand National to stay in sync with the "windshield wiper" national event philosphy.  Also, Marc Tuwiner has a Cadillac parts yard in the Reno area (as listed on the forum in the past).  So, the future looks bright for members on that side of the country.  There is plenty of CLC-related camaraderie to be had.

Vince

 

Quote from: Jay Friedman on April 18, 2024, 11:18:59 PMI'm just curious.  Can anyone tell me why the people who are leaving the forum are so against the idea of joining the CLC.  It's not expensive; certainly not compared to the cost of restoring and maintaining a vintage car. 

I've been a paying member since 2017. I also follow several Cadillac sites that dot facebook. My experience so far is that information and responses to questions have been far more solid on our forum. Perhaps it's because the CLC has been around a long time and the members I've communicated with are bringing more experience to the table. Ive not always received or seen the level of experience on other sites. For me the membership is a resource I'm willing to pay for. I've saved more than the cost of my membership by avoiding costly mistakes thanks to the advice I've received.

Jim that has also been my experience. The CLC Club is the big league. Clay/Lexi

Quote from: TJ Hopland on April 19, 2024, 02:06:46 PMScott, the place you want to enter your number when you find it is on the same page where you can change your password, there is a specific field for CLC number....

Thanks TJ, I was in that section and just missed it. I think because I was looking for an actual number instead of a blank box because I knew I had joined.

I did find my confirmation email. It was dated the 28th of December 2021 but I cannot find a number anywhere. I do recall spending quite a bit of time entering all of the details for my vehicles but perhaps they encouraged that before confirmation? I have no idea. I can see in the confirmation email the color of the hot link has already changed which seems to indicate I followed it when it arrived.

If something simply didn't "take" that would explain why I've never received any communication encouraging me to extend the membership. I just assumed that I was still under the extended period but I didn't realize it's been 2yrs and 4 months. I joined only because I wanted to support the forum by being paid but I have serious concerns regarding the policy and longevity of the forum. I gave the CT forum example. That site, for 1965-1970 large cars, was considered the authority for information and now Facebook type groups have really diluted the forum activity (and other forums from what I understand). There's so much existing information on that site that, if you have the patience to search existing content, you can likely find the answer to almost any question you have. My point being forums are already on life support and this policy is just helping to pull the plug regardless of what I do. I do encourage ebay buyers to join the forum if they aren't already members.

People asked if Paul was from California. I'm pretty certain that's Paul from the UK.

Scott

I got a question for Mr. Doyle.

How many car clubs do you belong to, and could you name them for us.

I belong to the CLC, Buick, Oldsmobile Club of America, Antique Oldsmobile Club, AACA and the Pontiac Oakland GMC club. 

Quote from: MultipleCaddies on April 19, 2024, 11:31:49 AMDid you miss the part where I said I live 2,500 miles away and attending is simply not in the cards? ALL "benefits" related to it are not relevant to me as a result.

Looks like you didn't even read what I posted.  I am 11,000 miles away, down at the bottom of the Southern Hemisphere.  The only reason I have not driven over to Western Australia for the Australian CLC Rally is due to health reasons. (2,600 miles, plus an all night ferry trip)

Bruce. >:D

Quote from: gkhashem on April 19, 2024, 07:54:39 PMI got a question for Mr. Doyle.

How many car clubs do you belong to, and could you name them for us.

I belong to the CLC, Buick, Oldsmobile Club of America, Antique Oldsmobile Club, AACA and the Pontiac Oakland GMC club. 

Me too plus MVPA and SPAAMFAA and a few local regions/chapters of the above clubs.

I've not been here that long, but since -21.
I wanted to become a paying member because I used the restoration forum as documentation to myself, with a posibility of others to correct me and debate, that last part it has not been too much of though. This is like Google supreme with extra everything talking Caddy's, I mean you have Tasmania, Florida, Switzerland, North Carolina and Minneapolis connected, all here for the love of Cadillacs
The CLC member ship change will need a year or so to show how forums took the hit we're now facing, think they will be fine.

Thanks / Johan

Quote from: gkhashem on April 19, 2024, 07:54:39 PMI got a question for Mr. Doyle.

How many car clubs do you belong to, and could you name them for us.

I belong to the CLC, Buick, Oldsmobile Club of America, Antique Oldsmobile Club, AACA and the Pontiac Oakland GMC club. 

What is sadly lost on the old guard is that cliquey clubs like this are on their way to becoming a thing of the past. There is a reason why gatherings like Cars and Coffee are rapidly gaining in popularity all over the place, while these kinds of old car clubs are on the decline. An awful lot of people simply cannot understand or accept that, even when it stares them straight in the face. But more importantly, they don't understand WHY.. I'm sitting here trying to explain it to you, and instead of debating the points, so many resort to all manner of ways to either change the subject or to try to turn it around on the person who tries to point it out to them. Attacking the messenger because you simply can't debate on the merits.

It doesn't matter what answer I give you. Whether I tell you I'm a member of zero clubs or 37, your opinion of me and my credibility is already set in stone. I'm an outsider, not part of your clique, so my opinion is entirely irrelevant to you. That's why the old guard is in decline, and a new generation of car shows and enthusiast gatherings is rapidly growing. Folks that are truly in it for the love of the cars - It's not about who you know or who you hobnob with. But for so many of you it is. It's another way to show off for the clique. I've been going to big car shows since I was a teenager, I've been working on cars my entire adult life, I run a restoration shop where literally all I do is build, restore and maintain classic cars for people who actually drive them. Dare I say, I'm far more deeply immersed in the classic car world than most of the people here. I've contributed so much in terms of keeping so many of these cars on the road, putting them back on the road after someone cast them aside, and helping a lot of people have a lot of fun with their beloved old cars. I have introduced numerous people to the hobby, young and old, and brought many people to the many, many car shows I've gone to over the years. I've spent huge amounts of my own money on my own cars, and incalculable amounts spent by others for me to fix and restore their old cars. So excuse me if I COMPLETELY dismiss the absurd notion that spending money on joining a car club is somehow the gold standard upon which someone's credibility or acceptance in this world should be judged. Dare I say, I've contributed MUCH more to the hobby as a whole than most of you here.

So you want to know and understand why I have no interest in joining your cliquey club? Because you aren't in it for the cars nearly as much as I am, you're in it for the popularity contest. For the who you know and who you hobnob with factor. It's the same on almost all clubs like this. A handful of the most popular members of the clique circle around the outsider in an attempt to wear him down and drive him away, so you can preserve your echo chamber. You will succeed in your efforts with most people. They will seek out advice and info elsewhere, because most people do not have enough fight or interest in them to take on these battles. Well I do, which is why several of you have honed in your efforts to drive me out. Because I represent a real challenge to the status quo. Like I said, the model is dying off. We all know it, but apparently only some of us know why. The old guard hasn't figured it out yet and likely never will. They will simply watch their numbers decline and wonder why, despite people like me explaining it to you.

The people who need to hear this the most are the ones pushing back the hardest on me. You simply cannot handle someone with REAL passion and conviction who disagrees with you. Well you can turn away from it, but you can't make it go away. What's the next step? Banning me entirely? Talk about proving my point entirely in front of the entire audience. You've got a number of leaders of the old guard who've stepped up and locked swords. But there's plenty of others quietly watching this and seeing what's going on here and not liking it any more than I do. Don't think this will affect your membership in the end? Boy, are you in for some serious disappointment. Just don't say I didn't tell you exactly what will happen.

Quote from: 79 Eldorado on April 19, 2024, 07:11:46 PMThanks TJ, I was in that section and just missed it. I think because I was looking for an actual number instead of a blank box because I knew I had joined.

I did find my confirmation email. It was dated the 28th of December 2021 but I cannot find a number anywhere. I do recall spending quite a bit of time entering all of the details for my vehicles but perhaps they encouraged that before confirmation? I have no idea. I can see in the confirmation email the color of the hot link has already changed which seems to indicate I followed it when it arrived.

If something simply didn't "take" that would explain why I've never received any communication encouraging me to extend the membership. I just assumed that I was still under the extended period but I didn't realize it's been 2yrs and 4 months. I joined only because I wanted to support the forum by being paid but I have serious concerns regarding the policy and longevity of the forum. I gave the CT forum example. That site, for 1965-1970 large cars, was considered the authority for information and now Facebook type groups have really diluted the forum activity (and other forums from what I understand). There's so much existing information on that site that, if you have the patience to search existing content, you can likely find the answer to almost any question you have. My point being forums are already on life support and this policy is just helping to pull the plug regardless of what I do. I do encourage ebay buyers to join the forum if they aren't already members.

People asked if Paul was from California. I'm pretty certain that's Paul from the UK.

Scott

Your point about forums like this being on life support already is as entirely lost on some of these folks as it was to many of the first class passengers on the Titanic. Sheltered from reality most of their lives, unwilling to even consider the reality that the ship is in fact sinking, until it was utterly forced upon them as the ship settled into the water. But by the time they realized it, it was of course far too late to have any hope of stopping it. Even those who at first were unwilling to accept it were forced to abandon ship. It is a perfect analogy to what is happening here. Except in the case of this forum, they aren't even attempting to steer away from the iceberg, they're accelerating towards it with foolish arrogance - and after smashing into it, they declare in unison "this is fine".

Another thread with a never ending circle of BS

Bruce, you're slipping. Normally you would lock threads like this after the first few posts.

In a way, nice to see you allowing others to get their opinions out.

About a dozen years ago, voters in our state decided they wanted nothing more to do with allowing people to smoke in public places including bars, bowling alleys, social halls & restaurants.

You would've thought the world was coming to an end the comments so many people posted and of course, the TV news stories. They were insistent, it was impossible to consume an alcoholic drink without a cigarette in their hand.

For years earlier, whenever you went to a restaurant and were asked if you wanted to sit in the smoking or non-smoking section, the smoking section would be mostly empty while the non-smoking section was full. You had a choice; you wait for a seat to open up in the non-smoking section or take your chances and be seated in the smoking section where at any moment they could also seat someone next to you that their cigarette smoke would blow over into your face and as a non-smoker it could ruin the enjoyment of your meal.

Or perhaps you would visit states like Florida that already had the law in place not allowing smoking in restaurants. What a joy to know that you would be able to sit anywhere in a restaurant and not have to consume someone else's lousy cigarette smoke.

Finally, the day came, the law went into effect, and no more smoking in public places. Many of the facilities took the opportunity to wash their ceilings, maybe their walls. Clean the windows, and start fresh, smelling fresh, and not like a dirty ashtray.

As far as I know, none of those places went out of business, because you could no longer smoke your cigarette and drink your beer inside. People just changed and adapted. With the vast majority of people these days being non smokers,  it was a good change and we have never looked back. Well, maybe to laugh and recalled that at some point, you could smoke cigarettes even on an airplane.

Yep, there were a lot of unhappy people, but the vast majority were very satisfied with the new rules that were put in place.

Time to shut this one down too. Like Laurie, we will never come to a mutual understanding with this anonymous poster. Except Laurie was a member and we knew her name.

He (or she) is painting with a broad brush about a club made up of many individuals.  When that happens it is time to shut a thread down. I've never met this guy, using an anonymous name, yet he has put me and all of us in the same corrupt (to him) group. 

It's no longer a constructive post.

Quote from: Big Fins on April 20, 2024, 04:46:02 AMAnother thread with a never ending circle of BS

Bruce, you're slipping. Normally you would lock threads like this after the first few posts.

In a way, nice to see you allowing others to get their opinions out.

G'day John,

Not slipping, just letting him waste his valuable time and resources on the computer.

But, as it looks like, in a few days he will be history, so I suppose we are leaving him to dig himself into a hole.

But, having said that, at least it is getting out to other Non-Members that the Club is worthwhile joining.

Some of his posts have been locked by other Moderators.

Bruce. >:D

This may as well serve as a tutorial on how to write a "Dear John" letter in just 18 posts/57,000 words or less. At the ripe old age of 27 we know everything what works best in every situation for every single organization, non-sequitur analogies notwithstanding.  It's a mistake to presume that one template fits all. An argument that essentially boils down why we don't need lobster for basic daily sustenance any more than a Cadillac or classic car for transportation.

Speaking for myself, the close friendships I've made all over the country as a direct result of the CLC couldn't be measured in dollars and cents, to say nothing of the quality of expertise, support and appreciation of our cars unsurpassed on any other major platform or venue. It's pretty simple: If you want/appreciate premium service, you pay for it; if not, don't.

Quote from: MultipleCaddies on April 20, 2024, 03:26:55 AMWhat is sadly lost on the old guard is that cliquey clubs like this are on their way to becoming a thing of the past. There is a reason why gatherings like Cars and Coffee are rapidly gaining in popularity all over the place, while these kinds of old car clubs are on the decline. An awful lot of people simply cannot understand or accept that, even when it stares them straight in the face. But more importantly, they don't understand WHY.. I'm sitting here trying to explain it to you, and instead of debating the points, so many resort to all manner of ways to either change the subject or to try to turn it around on the person who tries to point it out to them. Attacking the messenger because you simply can't debate on the merits.

It doesn't matter what answer I give you. Whether I tell you I'm a member of zero clubs or 37, your opinion of me and my credibility is already set in stone. I'm an outsider, not part of your clique, so my opinion is entirely irrelevant to you. That's why the old guard is in decline, and a new generation of car shows and enthusiast gatherings is rapidly growing. Folks that are truly in it for the love of the cars - It's not about who you know or who you hobnob with. But for so many of you it is. It's another way to show off for the clique. I've been going to big car shows since I was a teenager, I've been working on cars my entire adult life, I run a restoration shop where literally all I do is build, restore and maintain classic cars for people who actually drive them. Dare I say, I'm far more deeply immersed in the classic car world than most of the people here. I've contributed so much in terms of keeping so many of these cars on the road, putting them back on the road after someone cast them aside, and helping a lot of people have a lot of fun with their beloved old cars. I have introduced numerous people to the hobby, young and old, and brought many people to the many, many car shows I've gone to over the years. I've spent huge amounts of my own money on my own cars, and incalculable amounts spent by others for me to fix and restore their old cars. So excuse me if I COMPLETELY dismiss the absurd notion that spending money on joining a car club is somehow the gold standard upon which someone's credibility or acceptance in this world should be judged. Dare I say, I've contributed MUCH more to the hobby as a whole than most of you here.

So you want to know and understand why I have no interest in joining your cliquey club? Because you aren't in it for the cars nearly as much as I am, you're in it for the popularity contest. For the who you know and who you hobnob with factor. It's the same on almost all clubs like this. A handful of the most popular members of the clique circle around the outsider in an attempt to wear him down and drive him away, so you can preserve your echo chamber. You will succeed in your efforts with most people. They will seek out advice and info elsewhere, because most people do not have enough fight or interest in them to take on these battles. Well I do, which is why several of you have honed in your efforts to drive me out. Because I represent a real challenge to the status quo. Like I said, the model is dying off. We all know it, but apparently only some of us know why. The old guard hasn't figured it out yet and likely never will. They will simply watch their numbers decline and wonder why, despite people like me explaining it to you.

The people who need to hear this the most are the ones pushing back the hardest on me. You simply cannot handle someone with REAL passion and conviction who disagrees with you. Well you can turn away from it, but you can't make it go away. What's the next step? Banning me entirely? Talk about proving my point entirely in front of the entire audience. You've got a number of leaders of the old guard who've stepped up and locked swords. But there's plenty of others quietly watching this and seeing what's going on here and not liking it any more than I do. Don't think this will affect your membership in the end? Boy, are you in for some serious disappointment. Just don't say I didn't tell you exactly what will happen.

Just as I thought none.

I care not to analyze your motives on a forum but I have a few good guesses. In a few days you will be locked out. This is really a waste of time and bandwidth. In reality you really have no say in the matter, since you are not part of the "clique" as you like to call all of the members here.

While the jury is out on the changes being made, you seem to know the answer already. I think the attempt to obtain some new members is worth trying, since continuing on the path the CLC is now on is not working as shown by dwindling memberships. You want to continue the status quo which is almost certain to end badly in so many years hence. I say be proactive and try something, since surely to do nothing is not the solution.

Suggestion do not pay 25$ register on bring a trailer for 0$,and join the other 1000,s of armchair experts,because if 2.08 per month breaks the bank,I doubt you maintain a collection of Cadillacs

I consider CLC membership to be the best tool in my toolbox. The things I've learned via the Forum have saved me more than $25 a year, so my membership has paid for itself many times over.

To any non members "sitting on the fence" I urge you to join. Put the best tool you'll ever own in your toolbox.

Yes it is the best tool in the tool box. Well said Mike. Clay/Lexi

Quote from: Carfreak on April 20, 2024, 05:30:52 AMAbout a dozen years ago, voters in our state decided they wanted nothing more to do with allowing people to smoke in public places including bars, bowling alleys, social halls & restaurants.

You would've thought the world was coming to an end the comments so many people posted and of course, the TV news stories. They were insistent, it was impossible to consume an alcoholic drink without a cigarette in their hand.

For years earlier, whenever you went to a restaurant and were asked if you wanted to sit in the smoking or non-smoking section, the smoking section would be mostly empty while the non-smoking section was full. You had a choice; you wait for a seat to open up in the non-smoking section or take your chances and be seated in the smoking section where at any moment they could also seat someone next to you that their cigarette smoke would blow over into your face and as a non-smoker it could ruin the enjoyment of your meal.

Or perhaps you would visit states like Florida that already had the law in place not allowing smoking in restaurants. What a joy to know that you would be able to sit anywhere in a restaurant and not have to consume someone else's lousy cigarette smoke.

Finally, the day came, the law went into effect, and no more smoking in public places. Many of the facilities took the opportunity to wash their ceilings, maybe their walls. Clean the windows, and start fresh, smelling fresh, and not like a dirty ashtray.

As far as I know, none of those places went out of business, because you could no longer smoke your cigarette and drink your beer inside. People just changed and adapted. With the vast majority of people these days being non smokers,  it was a good change and we have never looked back. Well, maybe to laugh and recalled that at some point, you could smoke cigarettes even on an airplane.

Yep, there were a lot of unhappy people, but the vast majority were very satisfied with the new rules that were put in place.

There is little correlation between the two concepts. There is also enormous precedent with internet forums that anyone has the ability to research and verify for themselves. This isn't my opinion on what I think will happen here, this is long established precedent everywhere on the internet. Nobody seems to want to address that at all, they just completely ignore it and somehow assume that this forum will be different. But unfortunately, the absolute plethora of evidence to the contrary is going completely ignored by the powers that be here.

Quote from: gkhashem on April 20, 2024, 08:25:53 AMJust as I thought none.

I care not to analyze your motives on a forum but I have a few good guesses. In a few days you will be locked out. This is really a waste of time and bandwidth. In reality you really have no say in the matter, since you are not part of the "clique" as you like to call all of the members here.

While the jury is out on the changes being made, you seem to know the answer already. I think the attempt to obtain some new members is worth trying, since continuing on the path the CLC is now on is not working as shown by dwindling memberships. You want to continue the status quo which is almost certain to end badly in so many years hence. I say be proactive and try something, since surely to do nothing is not the solution.

If this particular car club was the only one with declining memberships, you'd be absolutely correct in assuming that something is specifically wrong here that needs to change. The problem is that it is a hobby-wide problem, across nearly all of the traditional club models. Yet so many of you continue to ignore that rather than to try to figure out what the real underlying cause is. The car club model that involves barriers to entry is dying, hobby-wide. Some of us understand that and move on/adapt. The old guard simply cannot, and you'll keep throwing ideas at the wall in the hope that maybe one will stick.

Quote from: 56Fleetwood on April 20, 2024, 11:20:57 AMI consider CLC membership to be the best tool in my toolbox. The things I've learned via the Forum have saved me more than $25 a year, so my membership has paid for itself many times over.

To any non members "sitting on the fence" I urge you to join. Put the best tool you'll ever own in your toolbox.

People keep repeating this same generic line as though there is nothing to be gained from the THOUSANDS of free-to-use forums out there. That is of course absurd. I have gained TREMENDOUS value from many, many forums in my more than 20 years of using them. This argument falls completely flat. This forum is not the only source of info, nor is it the only one with knowledgable members. I honestly can't understand why so many people seem so convinced that THIS forum is somehow the gold standard that trumps all others, and is worthy of charging for its use when THOUSANDS of others remain free-to-use. Somehow that fact continues to completely elude so many here.

Quote from: wrefakis on April 20, 2024, 09:35:29 AMSuggestion do not pay 25$ register on bring a trailer for 0$,and join the other 1000,s of armchair experts,because if 2.08 per month breaks the bank,I doubt you maintain a collection of Cadillacs

Again, assuming that someone is broke because they don't want to pay for something that is free almost everywhere else is just absurd. It betrays the lack of strength of your argument.

Who said I maintain a "collection of Cadillacs"? Not me. I own two at present. One is a decent driver, the other is a restoration project in progress. Believe it or not, I have more than $25 into both of them. But again, that was never the point, it's just a weak talking point that people with no basis to their argument try to use to win points from their buddies.

Man do I hate long "goodbyes"
Greg Surfas

The key point that continues to go completely ignored by everyone here: When you put up barriers to entry, you reduce the number of people who enter. This is an incredibly easy concept to understand. There is almost nothing in existence that works on the model "make it more expensive or difficult to use while simultaneously making no changes to the product/service offered, and more people will want to use it". That's the model being proposed here. It's nearly guaranteed to fail.

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on April 20, 2024, 12:34:36 PMMan do I hate long "goodbyes"
Greg Surfas

It's goodbye for a little while, only for a little while..

Sound familiar?

Quote from: MultipleCaddies on April 20, 2024, 12:24:06 PMPeople keep repeating this same generic line as though there is nothing to be gained from the THOUSANDS of free-to-use forums out there. That is of course absurd. I have gained TREMENDOUS value from many, many forums in my more than 20 years of using them. This argument falls completely flat. This forum is not the only source of info, nor is it the only one with knowledgable members. I honestly can't understand why so many people seem so convinced that THIS forum is somehow the gold standard that trumps all others, and is worthy of charging for its use when THOUSANDS of others remain free-to-use. Somehow that fact continues to completely elude so many here.

I hate to burst your bubble but everything you thought of has already been thought of. Every decision carries a cost/benefit which is weighed carefully. There's more to a great club than raw membership numbers alone.

Quote from: MultipleCaddies on April 20, 2024, 12:36:01 PMThe key point that continues to go completely ignored by everyone here: When you put up barriers to entry, you reduce the number of people who enter. This is an incredibly easy concept to understand. There is almost nothing in existence that works on the model "make it more expensive or difficult to use while simultaneously making no changes to the product/service offered, and more people will want to use it". That's the model being proposed here. It's nearly guaranteed to fail.

You forget the most important point. Website hosting ,storage, and administration IS NOT FREE.

So should the dues of the CLC members go up to remove that barrier to you? If the dues go up too much the members will not pay and thus no forum. Man, you are such a short term thinker, not thinking beyond your immediate needs or wants.

You forget one thing, every resource is scare. Why? How do I know? You pay a price for it. Fortunately for you it has been free in the past but not for us members. A very selfish and narrow view of the big picture. All we can say is this change might work or might not. But if 10-20% of the non members decide to join I would say the change may  be a success.

Quote from: gkhashem on April 20, 2024, 01:25:34 PMYou forget the most important point. Website hosting ,storage, and administration IS NOT FREE.

So should the dues of the CLC members go up to remove that barrier to you? If the dues go up too much the members will not pay and thus no forum. Man, you are such a short term thinker, not thinking beyond your immediate needs or wants.

You forget one thing, every resource is scare. Why? How do I know? You pay a price for it. Fortunately for you it has been free in the past but not for us members. A very selfish and narrow view of the big picture. All we can say is this change might work or might not. But if 10-20% of the non members decide to join I would say the change may  be a success.

I will ask this again, and so far nobody has even attempted to answer it: How is it that THOUSANDS of other forums all over the internet have figured out how to keep their lights on without putting paywalls up in order to participate? Many of these forums are MUCH larger than this one with MUCH more activity, thus much higher hosting bills, more moderation, etc.. What is this forum doing wrong that all these other forums are not?

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on April 20, 2024, 01:07:59 PMI hate to burst your bubble but everything you thought of has already been thought of. Every decision carries a cost/benefit which is weighed carefully. There's more to a great club than raw membership numbers alone.

What I'm trying to understand is how anyone came to the conclusion that putting up more barriers to entry is somehow going to increase club membership or participation. You aren't offering for your $25 fee that you weren't offering before, but you are closing off a potential source of new members. Can you explain to me where the new members will come from? What the club offers wasn't enough to get these people to sign up previously, but closing off the forum is somehow going to get people to join? I can't wrap my head around how anyone thinks that is a working business model.

What you are very likely to see is a short term increase of a few new members who are currently engaged with the forum who want to keep participating. This will last a short while, until forum activity inevitably declines, and many paying members will not renew their memberships as they feel they are getting less value out of it. Within a year the decline will be readily apparent to all, and within a few years the forum itself will be a shell of its former self. This is not my opinion, this has happened to many, many forums over the years. When the forum dwindles, club memberships will decline along with it. Where will the much-needed new members come from? People who google search something like "Cadillac forum" will find this place, encounter the paywall and will immediately look elsewhere. Again, anyone who has been around internet forums for many years will have seen this for themselves many times over. I stress, forumS, plural. If this is the only one you've ever participated on you might not be aware of how the rest of the internet works, especially for new generations of people who grew up with the internet. All of the most popular and successful platforms are free to use. In order to succeed with a paywall, you have to offer something that a LOT of people want that is not available anywhere else, and it takes years of getting those people on board first and capturing the audience, all the while maintaining consistent strong growth if you expect that model to flourish. We've seen that in recent years with the rise of alternative news sources and commentators, competing with the legacy media model that is in decline. It is the very same here. The traditional car club is a declining model hobby-wide. Everyone knows that. Yet you're relying on legacy ideas to try to turn the decline around, that you just have no basis for believing will work. It isn't working anywhere else, so you have to ask yourself why you think it will work here?

Quote from: gkhashem on April 20, 2024, 01:25:34 PMYou forget the most important point. Website hosting ,storage, and administration IS NOT FREE.

So should the dues of the CLC members go up to remove that barrier to you? If the dues go up too much the members will not pay and thus no forum. Man, you are such a short term thinker, not thinking beyond your immediate needs or wants.

You forget one thing, every resource is scare. Why? How do I know? You pay a price for it. Fortunately for you it has been free in the past but not for us members. A very selfish and narrow view of the big picture. All we can say is this change might work or might not. But if 10-20% of the non members decide to join I would say the change may  be a success.

The reality is that maintaining and operating a car club can be a very expensive operation. Booking venues and setting up shows have very large, very real costs to them. Organizing meetings and whatnot costs real money as well. No one is disputing those costs. But forum operation is quite different, and the two should not be intertwined. Hosting costs money, but not THAT much money. Hosting costs themselves are easily paid for with minimal advertising. As far as moderation, nearly all forums across the internet use a volunteer moderation model. Most or all forum moderators across the internet work on a volunteer basis. They do it because they love it and believe in it, because that's what is necessary to get the job done. Much the same as how I used to volunteer at air shows put on by the Collings foundation for almost ten years, until I moved out of state and no longer had reasonable access to their shows. I did it because I loved it and I wanted to do my part to help keep the shows going. Being around the planes and people who were most enthusiastic about them was payment enough. I have volunteered at some of the many car shows I've been to over the years. Many enthusiast groups and organizations depend on the volunteer model in order to succeed. If everyone needed to be paid a full time salary in order to participate, many/most of these events simply wouldn't exist. It's the exact same thing with all big forums that flourish.

So again, why can't this forum figure out how to keep the lights on without a paywall when thousands of others can? You're doing something wrong. And it seems most of the people involved simply aren't willing to admit it.

Quote from: MultipleCaddies on April 20, 2024, 02:01:54 PMSo again, why can't this forum figure out how to keep the lights on without a paywall when thousands of others can? 

Because the club does not want to.  You are 100% the definition of a troll. You have 67 total posts of which at least half have been related to the 3-4 threads on the May 1 deadline. 

We don't know who you are, why you are on the forum, we know very little.  In fact, the CLC rule is that your title must be your name, or your name needs to be in your footer, neither of which you provide. Troll, meaning you are just here to stir the pot. 

We understand your position, and you may be right. However, it is going to take time to know one way or the other.  If you were a club officer, you would be tasked with trying to turn back the tide of declining membership. That is a responsibility.  It's that simple.  I am tired of hearing for the last 25 years that this group or that group needs to "appeal to the youth."  It did not work, this may work. 

Your 2 cents worth is noted.  Shut down the thread please!

Quote from: Bryan J Moran on April 20, 2024, 02:18:58 PMBecause the club does not want to.  You are 100% the definition of a troll. You have 67 total posts of which at least half have been related to the 3-4 threads on the May 1 deadline. 

We don't know who you are, why you are on the forum, we know very little.  In fact, the CLC rule is that your title must be your name, or your name needs to be in your footer, neither of which you provide. Troll, meaning you are just here to stir the pot. 

We understand your position, and you may be right. However, it is going to take time to know one way or the other.  If you were a club officer, you would be tasked with trying to turn back the tide of declining membership. That is a responsibility.  It's that simple.  I am tired of hearing for the last 25 years that this group or that group needs to "appeal to the youth."  It did not work, this may work. 

Your 2 cents worth is noted.  Shut down the thread please!

It's always a shame when people resort to personal attacks when their argument is weak. Strong arguments on solid ground simply don't degrade to insults. Your childish response to someone questioning your authority says everything that needs to be said.

Edit: All you've done here is prove that you have no interest in debating on the merits, but merely attacking the messenger because you don't like the message and don't want to hear it. You have no counter-argument, just misdirection and insults. That's just not a good look. It's not going to save the forum either.

Cmon moderators.  This person is a troll!  There is nothing constructive here. 

Quote from: Bryan J Moran on April 20, 2024, 02:57:28 PMCmon moderators.  This person is a troll!  There is nothing constructive here. 

The irony here is truly astounding. Nothing says "I'm confident in my position and beliefs" like saying "I don't like what you have to say, so you MUST be shut down." Amazing.

as your name implies "multiple caddies" you must have run up against a few car deals that you could not come to terms on,so,why all the endless discussion on the 25$? Price too high,pass the car.
those of us that pay do so to help finance keeping the club going,and again if 2.08 per month breaks the bank,maybe this is not the place to be

Quote from: wrefakis on April 20, 2024, 03:07:45 PMas your name implies "multiple caddies" you must have run up against a few car deals that you could not come to terms on,so,why all the endless discussion on the 25$? Price too high,pass the car.
those of us that pay do so to help finance keeping the club going,and again if 2.08 per month breaks the bank,maybe this is not the place to be

Again, completely missing the point. I can't make it any clearer than I already have. I can only explain it to you, I can't understand it for you. I cannot help but come to the conclusion that you are willfully, intentionally missing the point just for the sake of telling the outsider to get lost.

no,we all started as "outsiders" but the club does cost $ to operate,and those of us that actually do own these cars do not object to helping fund the club
 you pay more than $25 in tax to fund lord knows what on a single fill up

so pay the 25 and welcome

Quote from: Bryan J Moran on April 20, 2024, 02:18:58 PMI am tired of hearing for the last 25 years that this group or that group needs to "appeal to the youth."

This one simple line of yours so perfectly exemplifies the attitude that will ensure failure. Complete and total inability to adapt with the people or the times. I get it, you want to run a tight knit little club with no outsiders. That's fine, that's your right. Why don't you come out and say that then? Why bother trying to recruit new members? You aren't interested, despite the protestations of many here to the contrary. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want the club and the forum to live on, you have no choice but to accept an influx of new people with new ideas. To think that there is any other way to survive in this modern internet environment is totally devoid of all reason and logic.

Quote from: wrefakis on April 20, 2024, 03:18:36 PMno,we all started as "outsiders" but the club does cost $ to operate,and those of us that actually do own these cars do not object to helping fund the club
 you pay more than $25 in tax to fund lord knows what on a single fill up

so pay the 25 and welcome

A VERY small percentage of Cadillac owners do not object to paying for a club membership. Surely you understand that there are more than ~6,200 Cadillac owners in this country (and indeed the world), right? The huge majority of Cadillac owners and enthusiasts are not part of this club. I'd venture a guess and say the number or Cadillac owners in this country is well into seven figures. Likely millions of people worldwide, but only about 6,200 choose to pay for a club membership. My oh my, what a world of cheapskates.

Some of them even post on this forum. In fact, by the numbers, non-paying forum members outweigh paying club members about 2:1. I suppose they're all meaningless to you as well? Easily dismissed as freeloaders who don't matter? Like the millions of Cadillac owners who don't pay for a club membership? Are you going to stick to your reasoning that every one of them is a cheapskate who values McDonald's over a car club? That's a hell of a take.

never said a word of this
i said if you do not agree with the price of an item,pass on it
those of us that decide to support the club make that choice
cadillacs are expensive,so it follows that so is club membership?

Quote from: MultipleCaddies on April 20, 2024, 03:42:48 PMA VERY small percentage of Cadillac owners do not object to paying for a club membership. Surely you understand that there are more than ~6,200 Cadillac owners in this country (and indeed the world), right? The huge majority of Cadillac owners and enthusiasts are not part of this club. I'd venture a guess and say the number or Cadillac owners in this country is well into seven figures. Likely millions of people worldwide, but only about 6,200 choose to pay for a club membership. My oh my, what a world of cheapskates.

Some of them even post on this forum. In fact, by the numbers, non-paying forum members outweigh paying club members about 2:1. I suppose they're all meaningless to you as well? Easily dismissed as freeloaders who don't matter? Like the millions of Cadillac owners who don't pay for a club membership? Are you going to stick to your reasoning that every one of them is a cheapskate who values McDonald's over a car club? That's a hell of a take.

 Enough already, jezz, put up or shut up. It's going to cost 25 bucks to join and participate, and it's your choice to do so or not, and that's not going to change.
 Put your money where your b__ mouth is or shut the F___ up!!

 Respectfully,
 Rick

Quote from: MultipleCaddies on April 20, 2024, 03:31:51 PMThis one simple line of yours so perfectly exemplifies the attitude that will ensure failure. Complete and total inability to adapt with the people or the times. I get it, you want to run a tight knit little club with no outsiders. That's fine, that's your right. Why don't you come out and say that then? Why bother trying to recruit new members? You aren't interested, despite the protestations of many here to the contrary. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want the club and the forum to live on, you have no choice but to accept an influx of new people with new ideas. To think that there is any other way to survive in this modern internet environment is totally devoid of all reason and logic.

Just stop. There's no point debating the matter any further and your attitude stinks to put it bluntly. Nobody is interested in opinionated blather from a full of himself know it all. Any possibility of having a productive discussion has gone out the window due to your insufferable attitude and everyone here had enough of it. You have a lot to learn before you have a chance of gaining respect from those you hope to influence. To that end you could not have done more self inflicted damage if you tried.

Instead of proselytizing the matter here, why not start your own car club if you're so damn smart.

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on April 20, 2024, 05:02:59 PMJust stop. There's no point debating the matter any further and your attitude stinks to put it bluntly. Nobody is interested in opinionated blather from a full of himself know it all. Any possibility of having a productive discussion has gone out the window due to your insufferable attitude and everyone here had enough of it. You have a lot to learn before you have a chance of gaining respect from those you hope to influence. To that end you could not have done more self inflicted damage if you tried.

Instead of proselytizing the matter here, why not start your own car club if you're so damn smart.

Do you hear yourself? This kind of obtuse rhetoric that completely ignores the discussion at hand means nothing to me. You and fellas like Cadman-iac above are just fishing for a certain kind of reaction and you won't get one from me. I've made valid points that most of you aren't even trying to address, you just get out your pitchforks. Does not speak very well to the welcoming arms of this club, now does it?

Check out post 105 in the what happened to the Arc thread.  The show continues.

OMG !  Moderators?  Are there any moderators??  Troll alert. 

The topic of the CLC Club worth should really be a separate topic. The CLC could decide to charge $25 for the forum and provide a free CLC Club membership. That puts it in a different perspective. Those people who are passionate about not paying for a traditional car club are not; they simply get that benefit for free with the paid forum membership.

The passion many have for the CLC is causing the point of concern about the health of forums to be missed. Unless there is at least a lesser-member free option, the forum dies or becomes a shell of what it was (entry free membership encourages new users). If 100% of the current forum members paid a forum subscription of $25 per year it only changes the slope of the decline with a paid-only model. Even if the price of a forum membership didn't include a CLC membership some of those forum members would become CLC members and some would have been introduced to the CLC who would have otherwise not been.

Scott

This is by far the most bizarre conversation I've ever read on any forum. I'm not a member and will probably not join but I'll still read this forum from time to time, even if I can't post. I can't imagine getting so worked up, Mr Doyle, about basically club rules that it's making people angry at you. At my age,70, I look for friendships, not adversaries.  T. Irvin

Quote from: MultipleCaddies on April 20, 2024, 05:23:46 PMDo you hear yourself? This kind of obtuse rhetoric that completely ignores the discussion at hand means nothing to me. You and fellas like Cadman-iac above are just fishing for a certain kind of reaction and you won't get one from me. I've made valid points that most of you aren't even trying to address, you just get out your pitchforks. Does not speak very well to the welcoming arms of this club, now does it?

Frankly it's difficult to imagine the likes of you being welcomed anywhere. Your problem is a social skills problem. Not a CLC problem.

Hello all,

Just read through this discussion and wow!! There is a great deal of passionate arguments going on here. I will once again add my two cents. 

In the posts that were lost a few months ago, I was called a "freeloader" by another member discussing this very topic. I was greatly astonished that that is the kind of language allowed on here. Then again we see this irritant attitude to those who are displeased with the clubs decision to kick off members and force their hand into membership.

I will reiterate for those who seem aloof to understanding that making a membership threshold to post will most definitely, without question, without a doubt, and indisputably will result in a sharp decline in traffic on this forum and in good time, will become less exciting and less active.

This is almost verbatim,  word for word, what I tried to explain a few months ago but ended up on deaf ears:

As someone who is attending college right now, I would best put that money towards my Cadillac and my education. I asked questions here but I did what I could to help others with the knowledge I've gotten with being born and raised with 50's and 60's Cadillacs. With the help I have received here, I have done my best to reciprocate that when I could. I know a great deal about these fine automobiles and also love to learn more about them.

I said in a lost post, The fact is, the $1,200 jetaway deluxe tranny rebuild my 59 got 5 years ago now costs $4,500 for the same transmission on my 58. Or the carter carb rebuild on my 56 that cost $150 three years ago now cost me $350 for my 60 a few weeks ago?? This hobby is becoming more and more unaffordable every day. I would hate to be restoring a classic car today. It would most likely cost double the value of the car. When my dad and grandfather fully restored our 1960 and 1965 series 62 coupes 20 years ago, the cost of restoring both those cars then is less that one would have to spend on just restoring one. I know more people trying to sell their old car because they can't afford it than those who are looking for one.

Now here we are, we are going to be charged to help and be helped with our cars. I though this was about helping fellow Cadillac owners who took pride in the automobiles we all enjoy. Like mentioned, only a handful of people are posting here frequently.

Once again, my argument is not about bickering for some $25. That is meaningless. It is irrelevant twaddle. My argument is the repercussions of having a membership threshold to post. If I had to pay when I first had a question to ask on here, I would have not bothered. Not for one minute. I would have carried on my merry way. And every user on here can agree to that. Not everyone here is doing a concourse restoration and is in desperate need to be on the forums. Some people have little questions that they are curious about. That to me, made the forums interesting. I happily asked questions and happily contributed to other's discussions. Yes, the information on these forums are worth more than $25 a year. There is no argument there. Those howling "BUT IF YOU DONT HAVE $25 YOU CANT AFFORD A CADILLAC", that escapes the point. Why would anyone want to disenfranchise any prospective or a new Cadillac owner by discouraging them from getting info and help by making them become a member to ask for help??

When a friend of mine asks me for help on his car (or anything for that matter), I don't charge him. Because I know, the next day I might need their help. You will most definitely lose a great deal of traffic and interest on the forum. That's all I am saying. I am not angry or agitated that this is what the board decided. And I am not here trying to argue with anyone, I respect that everyone has a different view of which way this forum should head. The club has every right to make such arbitrary decisions that pertain to what they view is in the "best interests" of the club. I am merely offering my perspective for consideration.

Respectfully,
Derick

Quote from: timer2 on April 20, 2024, 05:42:04 PMThis is by far the most bizarre conversation I've ever read on any forum. I'm not a member and will probably not join but I'll still read this forum from time to time, even if I can't post. I can't imagine getting so worked up, Mr Doyle, about basically club rules that it's making people angry at you. At my age,70, I look for friendships, not adversaries.  T. Irvin

This is a very common thing on the internet, unfortunately. A good number people seem to take great personal offense when someone with strongly held, well articulated opinions and beliefs comes along and is not swayed by the will of others. I can absolutely understand people disagreeing with things I have said, but the ad hominems, baseless attacks and accusations that I am a troll are just entirely unfounded based on anything I have said. I have absolutely no problem with disagreement and my posts here should show that my tendency is to present reasoned, well-articulated positions. But many people quickly fall below the belt when their attempts at simply shutting other people up are not successful. This is by no means unique to this forum, it is a trait that shows itself widely all across the internet. I cannot understand the angry reactions to passionate debate that I have seen from so many people so often. I'm not angry in the slightest, I'm merely firm in my convictions, and personal attacks and accusations of trolling are not going to have the effect that so many people seem to think it will have, or want it to have. I will say, it does bother me when people attempt to simply shut down other people just because they don't like what someone else has to say. I have never accepted that and never will. Seems an awful lot of people believe in the concept of "free speech for me, but not for thee", or "my way or the highway".

Yes, I'm confident in my beliefs and defend them adamantly. But at no point EVER have I even insinuated that other people shouldn't have the right to state and defend their position. Sadly, at least a few people here believe that they can and should be able to control the discourse that way. I'm just glad these folks are not in greater positions of power in this country.

Quote from: timer2 on April 20, 2024, 05:42:04 PMThis is by far the most bizarre conversation I've ever read on any forum. I'm not a member and will probably not join but I'll still read this forum from time to time, even if I can't post. I can't imagine getting so worked up, Mr Doyle, about basically club rules that it's making people angry at you. At my age,70, I look for friendships, not adversaries.  T. Irvin

I think you could agree with Doyle and he would say " you miss the point." 

You've made many derivative remarks.  It's just not worth my time to spend 2 hours copying and pasting them.  I wish you well. You have made your points.  Please stop.  I will.  Where is Bruce?! Or Vince. 

This topic has been locked, not by myself, but other moderators that cannot ignore the complaints by Members with regards to the total negativity of some people.

One thing that comes out of all of this is the fact that MultipleCaddies has probably done us a favour, in highlighting the need for the Payment of Membership to be able to post on this wonderful Forum.

People reading this thread will come to realise that some people are so selfish that they want stuff for nothing, even though the information is freely given to enable others to get back on the road, or solve a problem to save them lots of hard-earned cash.

MultipleCaddies has shown himself to be the type of person who will not even try to join in anything, unless he can get it for free.   Volunteering to help out at an Air Show  is another way of getting something for free.   Free entry to an event that he is interested in, getting to do a bit of free work, but enjoying the sights and sounds of an air show.

We wish MultipleCaddies all the best in his future endeavours.

Bruce. >:D