Sorry, I'm sure this topic has been beat to death in the past but here goes:
I'm about to buy white walls for my 56. I have standard cooker 4" L78-15 bias ply white walls on my 50 caddy. That just gets driven around town and I don't have many complaints really. Sure, it doesn't handle like a radial but this is a cruiser, not a performance car. I also really prefer the look of bias plys on a car like this.
That being said, the 56 is getting a full mechanical rebuild so it might go on road trips. Am I nuts to run L78 cokers down the highway? Does anyone own the radials with the bias ply look? I'm curious about them even though they only allow a 3 inch WW.
It's a 50's car with drum brakes. Yes I've had to emergency stop on bias plys doing 50. Wasn't fun but wasn't horrific. Thankfully. Trying to decide. Thoughts?
I run all but one of my cars on the Radials that look like Bias and it has transformed the ride on each one. I have one car left to convert and had not done this because these tyres were not available in 16", but now they are and I have bought a set. In this country, the judging never gets that pedantic and the driving pleasure is more important to me. the only downside is the smaller whitewall but Diamondback is offering a new line of tyres with wider whites called 'Auburn'
I once did a trip of nearly 800 miles in my 1954 Buick with BF Goodrich Silvertone tires and I never had an issue. My 57 Cadillac currently has radials which I'll be ditching as soon as spring rolls around.
From my personal experience and that of others, I am sure you will be more satisfied with tires from Diamondback Tires --- www.dbtires.com --- for tires that you will traveling more with other than ... "just gets driven around town."
Now that ther are bias- look radials available, there really is no reason not to go radial. I’m about to take delivery of aset of the new DB Auburn’s to replace the bias-plies on my ‘61.
The downside is they cost about twice as much, and you can't get a 4" ww
In favor of bias plies, in fifty years of driving all kinds of cars and tires, I have never had a bias ply tire disintegrate or fall apart or shred while being driven. I have had three or four instances of radials doing this. In at least one case, rear quarter panel of my 1970 Cadillac was badly damaged by flying belts.
I have also had bad front end shimmying when belts shifted on radial tires.
Admittedly, radials handle much better, particularly on wet roads. They also wear way better. However, mileage and wet handling are not serious issues on our cars, which are driven limited miles on nice days.
My 1940 LaSalle and my Continental Mark II both roll on bias ply tires.
Yeah, I'm really leaning towards the bias plys, mainly bc I own them ony other caddy and they're comparatively not as expensive
Do yourself a great big fat favor , Cadillac. Get the new 'Backs as David has. Have 'em put the WWWs on as you like. Be the first on YOUR block. I have run more radial on more Cadillac (and even a great many brand X and truck for over 50 years in all conditions over 3 continents and the skinny little strip that connects a couple of them - over a million miles) , than I can even remember. Only problem I EVER had was on a '72 SDV I pulled out of an apartment garage in L.A. Old tires , a couple (or all) , very low , maybe flat. Been sitting in one spot like that for several years. Now if you don't drive it much , more like to look at and work on it , throw anything on it. Radials are for road (and off road) , runners , and freeway flyers. If you ever have ANY tire START to vibrate , that is the warning. Slow WAY down until you get to the tire store. I have run high quality radials right down to the steel before I yanked them. I have got back to the shack after a 6 month adventure in Mexico with my modified off-road '71 Eldo droptop with 2 out of 7 tread plies cut through (the original B.F. Goodrich All Terrain Radial T/As) , never so much as a slow leak , much less a flat. - Cadillac Carl
P.S. Alan would you please tell us the name of radials which have failed. If we are not allowed to bad mouth brands , rhyme them. For example : Stupor , Witche's Skin , Poker , Wood Beer , etc. Were your tires properly inflated to high speed or high speed plus spec. ? Thank you. - CC
Quote from: CadillacRob on January 16, 2018, 09:15:07 PM
The downside is they cost about twice as much, and you can't get a 4" ww
They certainly do cost more, but in the long run, probably not. I dive my cars at least once a week for about 9 months of the year. One car I had for 30 years from 1982 wore out 3 sets of BF Goodrich Bias ply in 16 years, and the handling in the wet on dreadful English roads was not for the faint-hearted. In 1998 I fitted radials, the first I could find in 16" with a 2.5 whitewall. It transformed that car and I sold it in 2012 with the same set still on it. The latest owner tells me they are just about ready for replacement. So cheap in the long run. My 37 has a set of Lester now bold after 7 years.
I don't understand running down the integrity of radials on this forum?? Virtually everything on the road has them and most are rated over 100 mph.
Will judges deduct for bias ply looking tires?
Keep Cruzin,
Bob Kielar
Quote from: Bob Kielar on January 17, 2018, 09:24:21 AM
Will judges deduct for bias ply looking tires?
Keep Cruzin,
Bob Kielar
I believe so but the day may come when they can't tell?
My biggest gripe about radials height which causes the car to sit too low. Second issue is tread width which much wider on radial which doesn't look right on a vintage car to my eyes. I might consider swapping out if there's such an animal in radial that doesn't have either of these issues.
I'll echo Alan's view that in many years of driving, I've never had a problem driving on biases although I'll be the first to admit to the handling/stopping advantages of radials. I've never had difficultly maintaining pace with highway traffic on biases.
Back in the day, a British automotive reviewer even once recommended the 1962 Fleetwood 60 Special "for effortless all day cruising at 100 mph." 8)
I’m having DB’s new bias-look radials installed on my ‘61 in the next few days. I’ll post a follow up once that’s done.
Quote from: David Greenburg on January 17, 2018, 02:17:26 PM
I’m having DB’s new bias-look radials installed on my ‘61 in the next few days. I’ll post a follow up once that’s done.
David...please post some pictures when you can.
Thanks.
Will do; the tires are in; I just need to coordinate my work schedule and the weather to get a morning off when it’s not raining. These are the “Auburn†tires, which contrary to their website can be had in other WW widths than those listed.
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on January 17, 2018, 02:01:00 PM
My biggest gripe about radials height which causes the car to sit too low. Second issue is tread width which much wider on radial which doesn't look right on a vintage car to my eyes. I might consider swapping out if there's such an animal in radial that doesn't have either of these issues.
Eric,Up to now I fully agree with your view on radials but the new Coker radials I have just bought for my 37 have exactly the same ride height, tread width and profile width as an original 700x16.
Quote from: Steve Passmore on January 17, 2018, 06:16:53 PM
Eric,Up to now I fully agree with your view on radials but the new Coker radials I have just bought for my 37 have exactly the same ride height, tread width and profile width as an original 700x16.
Do you know if the same applies to the 8.20x15 size?
Guys - I am not going to take a stand here on which is better for looks, driving, etc., but do want to caution if you plan to have the car judged in the CLC’s authenticity based judging. Bias ply tires on a car where they were not offered is a deduct per tire, including spare. Same thing with whitewall width not following guidelines for your car, or a tire manufacturer ‘repro’ name not one that was originally offered. This is discussed in depth in Appendix B of the Judging Manual. It is also discussed at length in the judges seminars for the GN or Fall Festival, so don’t expect that a judge won’t look or can’t tell.
If you just plan to drive & not go for authenticity judging, buy what you like & enjoy!
Paul
Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on January 17, 2018, 06:31:07 PM
Do you know if the same applies to the 8.20x15 size?
I can't answer for the Coker tyres in that size Eric but our supplier's website in this country give all the dimensions of the tyres they sell and you can compare sizes. These are the American Classic radials. They do a 4" whitewall very similar. Diamond Back are similar also. Compare sizes to a normal cross-ply.
http://www.northhantstyres.com/main-tyre-pages/american-classic-tyres/820-15-american-classic-radial-whitewall.html
Just my 2 cents, but I considered my 59 to be quite dangerous on the cross ply tyres it came with.
you could feel them squirm under the weight of the car upon cornering and braking, and the whole driving experience was an effort
granted they were a little old, but since I fitted a set of Coker Classics the car is a damn pleasure to drive
I know they arent original and judges may frown on them, but I drive my Cadillac as often as I can and I consider this a safety issue
if there is something that will improve my confidence in the car and it's safety/reliability, I will do it
again, just my 2 cents :)
G'day Dave,
Not much real anal judging goes on down this neck of the equator, and Aussies like a car to look good, BUT, it has to drive safely.
Bruce. >:D
I'm with Eric on this one. I also want to experience a vintage ride in a car that is as close to a 'time machine' as possible, so I am keeping bias plys on my '50s ride. If it was driven a lot more I might consider radials, but for my purely recreational, occasional driving I am sticking with the old style tires. Clay/Lexi
Quote from: MY 59 on January 18, 2018, 06:51:11 PM
Just my 2 cents, but I considered my 59 to be quite dangerous on the cross ply tyres it came with.
you could feel them squirm under the weight of the car upon cornering and braking, and the whole driving experience was an effort
granted they were a little old, but since I fitted a set of Coker Classics the car is a damn pleasure to drive
This has been my experience. My 57 drives and tracks like a modern turck, which is a good thing, on radial tires. On Bias ply tires it is all over the road regardless of cost of supplier. I will go further and say in a car as big and heavy as a Cadillac you should not run bias ply tires period unless you are trailering the car to show.
Frankly I am so sick of it I am just getting portawalls and calling it a day. I am using bridge stone dualers off of a jeep OEM application as they meet the weight requirements and ride like a dream in a car as heavy as mine. They are not so hidous once you smooth the wall of the tire out.
I am 70 years of age,
I forgot how horribly bias ply tires performed until I purchased a 1940 LaSalle with B.F. Goodrich bias ply. Fine on smooth highways. Constant effort on back roads. Soon I will replace them with radials. Bought my car to drive and enjoy. Not to show.
Your mileage may vary......
Bob
I have bias tires on my 1959 Coupe Deville and a 1964 Olds 98. My 1966 Coupe Deville has radials but I chose them since I can get modern tires in that size so rather than spend a $1000 on new bias I spent $ 350.00 on new Cooper radials. Then again when you have 9 cars you sometimes have to economize. Plus the 1966 looks like the radials could belong on the car.
Do I know I have bias tires on the car when I drive, well yes. But I drive the car as you should. Nice and easy. Cruising at a leisurely pace. Taking turns slowly and controlled. Part of the issue is the way you drive the car. Now note I say part of the issue not all. There is a difference.
I tend to think many of you guys out there drive like the general public. In big hurry, to go no where.
Are you guys driving 45 years old and older cars like a modern car? Taking turns on 2 wheels cutting in and out of traffic?
The only time my bias tires wander is if the road I am on is bad. Bad in that the road has ruts or remnants of what we call frost heaves in NH. The car will not wander on a decent road, only on poor roads does it wander. I cannot really tell the difference on a newly paved road as long as I drive in a controlled manner.
So you can do what you want, but I drive these cars around 500 miles a year and generally on short trips a bias tire works for me.
Quote from: z3skybolt on January 19, 2018, 06:32:38 PM
I am 70 years of age,
I forgot how horribly bias ply tires performed until I purchased a 1940 LaSalle with B.F. Goodrich bias ply. Fine on smooth highways. Constant effort on back roads. Soon I will replace them with radials. Bought my car to drive and enjoy. Not to show.
Your mileage may vary......
Bob
Bob
I drove a 1939 Cadillac Coupe Series 61 once (looking to buy it) and the effort came from no power steering and no power brakes. So the tires should help but I imagine they all drive somewhat like a truck.
Quote from: z3skybolt on January 19, 2018, 06:32:38 PM
I am 70 years of age, I forgot how horribly bias ply tires performed until I purchased a 1940 LaSalle with B.F. Goodrich bias ply. Fine on smooth highways. Constant effort on back roads. Soon I will replace them with radials. Bought my car to drive and enjoy. Not to show. Bob
G'day Bob,
I too am 70 years young, and purchased my first set of Radial tyres in 1967, and never looked back.
The only time I would buy Cross Plies was to fit to trailers. Now, down here Cross Plies are like hens' teeth.
Bruce. >:D
George,
Having grown up without power steering and brakes I never notice unless I am parking. Back then I didn't know the difference. I have driven the LaSalle about 2,000 miles. As someone said earlier...it is the roads with ruts and ridges that cause the bias ply tires to track and swerve all over. I live in a rural area and enjoy the quiet, paved, back roads. That is where the bias ply cause much effort.
Otherwise...cruising is sweet and smooth.
bob
One thing that puzzles me is why are people bothering to make radial bias look alike tires that apparently don't look like bias tires? From reading here people say they are not quite the right size just because of the characteristics of the different construction and that can be a big problem with tight spaces like fender skirts.
Seems like if you are building a radial mold from scratch to look like a bias tire they could make it what ever size would give the proper look say a 231 77 R 15 if that was what it took. Why do they stick with 225 or 235 75 if they are building from scratch? Or are they cheating a little and they bought likely worn out molds from out of production models and are slightly modifying them so they can only make minor changes? Or is it some legal issue with getting a DOT certification on a 'new' size? I could imagine the possible liability issues are more complex and expensive than actually designing and building a tire.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on January 20, 2018, 01:19:59 AM
....... Or is it some legal issue with getting a DOT certification on a 'new' size? I could imagine the possible liability issues are more complex and expensive than actually designing and building a tire.
TJ,
I think you have hit it in one.
Bruce. >:D
George
I've driven enough on back roads in NH to realize that the condition of your worst roads are better than our best roads here. NH roads are some of the best I've driven on
Hi all!
I went by the 1960 Cadillac for a couple of days when the weather was 5F degrees. By car installed bias tire(L78).
When I go on the road with ruts, my car keeps track badly after 40 mph.
What is the reason?
Camber, caster, toe adjusted.
Maybe it's normal for bias tire?
Car is in Russia. This car is not for every day)
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You take the '60 out in 5 degree weather? In snow? :o
Anyway, if the issue is temperature-related, chances are good the tires are the culprit.
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on January 20, 2018, 09:44:42 AM
George
I've driven enough on back roads in NH to realize that the condition of your worst roads are better than our best roads here. NH roads are some of the best I've driven on
Dan if you can believe it I am a NH native, and lived here over 90% of my life and the roads are worse than they used to be. But there are some neglected back roads where the winter has been very unkind to and these roads are difficult in spots to drive on even in the summer since the winter damage is still apparent on a road that has not been repaved recently.
That being said maybe I am spoiled since I find that even a 60 year old car is still a pleasure to drive even on bias tires. I drive my cars like savoring a fine wine, no guzzling here. Just a relaxing country stroll in the old girl.
I just don't understand why you would use bias ply when there is a better and safer alternative.
Driving 'in a controlled manner' is fine, but what if something unforeseen occurs and you have to brake and/or swerve urgently?
Driving these old dears is a treat and radials for me made it ten times more enjoyable and safer
I believe bias ply are not up to task, for a car driven regularly at least
Why make driving these beauties unpleasant and a chore
Why install a dual master cylinder? Why install disc brakes? Why install a new audio system? Why install an alternator? Why install seat belts? Why install a replacement drive train? Why install after-market rims? Why engage in any one of a number of resto-mod installations? Where does it end? Not saying that all of the above are uncalled for. Certainly a supportive argument can be made for reasons of safety for some of the above noted especially for cars that are driven regularly and/or under certain conditions. Conversely, for the few miles most of these cars are driven one could also question the need to do so (particularly for historic reasons in some cases for example). For some, the feeling that one gets when stepping back in time in an unmolested vehicle is as important. I would only add that by doing so that should never compromise not getting the vehicle regularly serviced and properly maintained. If I wanted a 'newer' car I would have bought one! Clay/Lexi
Quote from: MY 59 on January 20, 2018, 07:21:24 PM
I just don't understand why you would use bias ply when there is a better and safer alternative.
Driving 'in a controlled manner' is fine, but what if something unforeseen occurs and you have to brake and/or swerve urgently?
Driving these old dears is a treat and radials for me made it ten times more enjoyable and safer
I believe bias ply are not up to task, for a car driven regularly at least
Why make driving these beauties unpleasant and a chore
Because it is not unpleasant or a chore for me. Not sure what your talking about? Maybe this says more about those frame off restorations and worn out old cars.
I guess when you have an unrestored, original, and well maintained car (most likely since day 1) it drives nice and tight.
I have a 1966 Coupe Deville with radials and believe me if I have to swerve its still going to be an issue. The radials are not that much better. I can tell this is a 52 year old car and some tires are not going to change reality that much.
Well said , if I want a new car why bother with an old one.
That's the pleasure stepping back in time and experiencing what it was like in the day. Even better with a nice low mileage original, imagine how it felt driving a new car off the lot.
I am fortunate that I have 9 vehicles in that category and I refuse to buy anything else.
If the car is well maintained, shocks, suspension etc maybe it would drive better. Wonder how many cars out there are just maintained good enough. That's fine if that's all you can afford but a worn suspension is not helping your handling either.
Plus here is an article I posted before. Many "experts" here have shrugged it off, but my opinion and yours are based on what? This paper seem fairly professional so I imagine it has more merit than our opinions. Just because we have not experienced any issue does not mean it cannot happen.
https://www.sema.org/files/attachments/WTC-2011-05-Bias-vs-Radial-Tire-Wheel-Fitment.pdf
It is from SEMA, maybe they want to sell new rims? But seems fairly technical.
Radials have an advantage in wet road driving and wear. Well my old cars do not go out in the rain and since I drive a car about 500 miles a year wear is not an issue. So we are down to safety, well you better check your rims for stress to make sure they are safe if you are mounting radials on rims designed for bias tires.
An informative article. Thanks for posting that link George. I think that when one considers how many tires a vintage car may have been fitted with over the years, various types of rim wear may be of great importance. For those who have ever watched a shop 'clean' the bead portion of the rim prior to installing a new tire (often with a power wire wheel); I can only imagine the wear that must have been generated over the years thereby perhaps further compromising the integrity of the rim. I imagine this is what the author was referring to when he noted that the number of "cycles" that the rim has experienced, as being another factor of consideration, (along with some older rims not being designed to accept the stress of a radial tire). Clay/Lexi
I posted a related reply on the 63/64 Cadillac site today and will share here... :
Some people swear they cannot drive a 1963 or 1964 Cadillac (or any other older car for that matter) with bias ply tires, however in my blunt opinion, I have found that most people use the radials to compensate for or mask worn out and tired steering and suspension components. I replaced all of my steering and suspension on my 1964 Coupe de Ville with new parts and it is tight as a tick, and can drive my car anywhere from rutted downtown city streets to interstate cruising with one finger. (I literally did this one day on my 9.2 mile trek to work into downtown Raleigh to prove the point).
With that said, if I still had the loose, original worn suspension and front end components with no plans to address these issues, it would be a no brainer for me... I would be running low, wide fat 235/75 Radials that mask the affects of worn out ball joints, tie rods, tie struts, idler arms, steering gears, steering gear to column coupler, and upper and lower control arms. Before I "tightened up" my front end suspension and steering the bias ply tires were all over the place on the road. When I replaced with all new suspension components and had the front end aligned, driving my 64 Coupe de Ville on Bias Ply went from being a chore to a pleasure.
For some, riding at the original height, and running an original branded and style tire doesn't matter. For my 64 CDV which I am trying to keep the original look, it does matter to me. It is my personal choice. It doesn't make me right and you wrong but it is my choice. It is also be my choice If I decide to enter my car with original style tires in car shows that are judged on originality, such as the Cadillac & LaSalle Club Grand National. It is also appropriate that someone that runs a non-original tire in said show gets deducted points while someone like myself that runs original equipment does not get deducted points. It is the same if someone decides to use worm gear hose clamps vs correct original tower, spring and Corbin hose clamps on my era Cadillac. It is their choice, just as it is my choice to run original style equipment.
The tire you choose to run is a personal choice, however, I would ask before you throw down the gauntlet on Bias Ply tires, to consider if you have addressed other suspension and steering issues, that might be the real problem when running Bias Ply tires.
I know there are handling advantages to radial tires, however, running original style Bias Ply tires on a well maintained older Cadillac with tight front end and suspension for me is not only safe, it is an absolute pleasure.
i guess it boils down to what suits the individual owner, and the reasoning behind their decisions.
All even slightly worn replaceable brake, suspension and steering componens I have replaced on my Caddy with new, just to know she is tight and solid ( it actually still had the pitman arm that was recalled due to a few snapping I believe)
I chose to swap the bias ply even though they had plenty of tread/life left in them and am happy with the decision, but that is me and of course each to their own, we all have different opinions, which is the great thing about open forums
I have always used 8.20 x 15 bias ply tires on my '49, and find that they ride well as long as they are not very worn. Like Jason Edge, before rebuilding its front end and suspension, the car would wander on certain roads at high speeds. Once these components were rebuilt, those problems were minimized.
I'll probably switch to radials in a bias ply size when the current bias plies wear out as I no longer enter the car for judging at GNs.
Jason
I thank you for confirming my response from earlier in the thread.
Maybe the car is not in top condition anymore and that takes time and money and only fools like me spent funds on that. I am sure there are others out there like me, but to each his own.
I hear about the car wandering and pulling on roads. I cannot relate to that on a constant basis. The only time I experienced a wander is when a rut in the road pulls the car or my brakes needed an adjustment since one of the drums is gripping too quickly so the car pulls on a quick stop.
Other than that I never experience any difficulty driving. I can crank my 1959 at 75MPH to 80 MPH (and actually rarely do this since I hate to imagine hitting anything but around here sometimes the interstate is empty and I wanted to see how she would drive at that speed) and go straight and smooth down the road. (except for that harmonic vibration around 60 MPH that is momentary around that speed then stops and I have been told this is normal from some experts) , and yes there is a handling difference but not to the point where I feel endangered. I just need to get out of the current and drive the car as you would drive years ago.
I need to be alert and this is a good idea since the people around you on the roads have no clue for the most part how old cars drive and stop. Even old timers who have not driven an older car in 45 years do not remember.
How many of you still remember to always pump the bumps when you need to stop quick anymore. I forgot to at times, since I have had ABS brakes since the 1990s.
I always get a chuckle when this discussion comes along because it is so polarizing. The key here is having a good front end guy who knows when doing an alignment, what the impact is of each adjustment.
Case in point. When I owned David Greenburg's 61, I had the front end aligned with radial tires on it that day. He commented that the front end was as new. No matter what tires I had on it, there was always a bit of wander. He did the alignment and on the way home, the car handled like it was on rails. Just like my VW CC. Unfortunately, the tires were out of round from sitting so much, I had to go back to the bias ply tires. With the new settings, the car handled much better than before on the bias ply tires.
He said he would've used the same settings no matter which tires I showed up with. He explained that the factory settings have so much negative caster to make the steering feel light and effortless, you sacrifice stability and road feel.
The bias ply tires would still grip ruts and follow bad cracks but nothing near as bad as the factory settings. I also ran the bias ply tires at 32psi and that helped a lot.
I did prefer the radial tires for their low noise and better feel.
Either way, at the end of the day, to me it's preference.
FWIW I went with the regular old L78-15 coker bias plys. Reason being price and I also already own a set for a few years now on my 50 caddy. No complaints really. Coker has a small (50 or 60?) $$ rebate for a set of white walls this month. The 56 I'm restoring still needs full exhaust and I have to be budget conscious without cheaping out.