We have recently had several threads where the subject of 3d printing came up but wasn't really the point of the thread so it didn't go real deep into the subject but there seemed to be a lot of interest and a few members with some skills and hands on experience in the field so I figure maybe its time to start a thread on the subject.
I will start out with some basics and my and how I became interested in the subject. Later we can talk about the specific Cadillac parts. Anyone with experience wants to jump in feel free. Anyone wants to ask questions feel free. I figure first we will talk about the basics of what is out there now on the hobbyist level. I know I was very confused about what the options are and what things cost and what you need to do what sorts of things. My experience so far is with FDM, if someone else wants to cover what that is and what the other options are.....
I have been interested and kinda watching the field since I first saw something about Jay Leno getting a scanner and printer many (15?) years ago in his garage. I don't remember what the show was called at the time or even if it was his show. He may have just been a guest location on some other car show. The show showed how they had some damaged super rare part on one of his cars that they were able to scan then re construct. They then did a plastic 3d print to do test fits and then I think they made a mold and had the part cast because at that time there were not high temp plastics or metal 3d printing materials.
Of course the first ones were sort of diy prototypes that evolved into very complex and expensive units that a hobbyist could not afford so budget limited enthusiasts began to build their own from 'off the shelf' parts. Companies started to notice what people were doing and decided we can just throw all the parts together in a kit which then evolved into we can just sell a mostly or fully assembled units that we have today for as low as $150.
The main limitation a beginner would have with the $150ish units is they have a pretty small build volume. Build volume is how big of an object you can make. The smallest ones tend to be in the 4 inch by 4 inch and 5 inch tall range. That's fine if your ultimate goal is to make fancier hotels for your Monopoly set or maybe clips for your Cadillac's sun visor but its going to be a frustrating limit for a lot of other stuff. $500 these days can get you something with a 12x12x16 ish volume that can print a few but not all of the popular materials. In the design software you can split up an object in such a way that you can assemble it into something larger than your printer can print but that doesn't work all objects you may want to build.
Quality of print isn't as tied to the cost as you would think. In the hands of an experienced person you may not be able to tell the difference between something printed on a $150 printer vs a $1000 one. Besides build volume the thing you tend to get for more money is the ability to reliably print with a wider range of materials. Some materials are very forgiving when it comes to temperature stability and are very easy to reliably feed into a simple inexpensive machine while others can be very temperamental and require extra features and precision in the printer to work reliably.
The different materials all have different characteristics as far as your finished product. Temperature stability is a factor. A knickknack to sit on a shelf doesn't matter much when it gets soft but something you are going to put under the hood of your Cadillac like that windshield wiper motor cover someone was talking about does need to stand a reasonable amount of heat. How brittle or soft it is as well as chemical or UV resistance are also factors depending on your application. Some materials can cause wear on the printer parts so that can be a consideration. Materials that require higher printing temps can be hard on the less expensive printers so there are a lot of factors to consider. Don't forget about cost too. Could be a big cost difference going from a $20 roll to $80+ if your parts are very big or you plan to make a lot of them. If its a more temperamental material you may also have more failed prints which will waste more time and material.
Thats all I have time for now.... again anyone else with some experience fee free. I suspect there are a lot of people interested in the subject just don't know where to start or the basics so that is what I hope to cover here. Maybe eventually it could evolve into its own section here were we help each other out with designs and making parts for our cars.
I have made a variety of parts and even more models for my '74 Eldorado so far. I do my prototyping on hobby printers and anything that I want made out of something durable, I have professionally printed out of what ever material is suitable for the application. Some parts are nylon, some are ABS, and some are metal. Nothing that comes off of my hobby printer would be considered "production quality". It's just not good enough.
This is a huge positive for our hobby, and it has many other very useful applications. I envision that there are 3D printing centers like Kinkos, where you send in the electronic file, specify the material, they print it and then ship it to you. Or we have our own 3D printers. The issues will be updating equipment, keeping heads (and other things) that print the material maintained, size of printer, scanners, and getting a good file to print. One piece units, such as say the kick down arm on the 472/500 engines that engage passing gear is a great application for this technology. Drill out the rivets on the old unit, and use thru bolts to attach the new printed arm. The arm might be printed at home or a local 3D printer. the possibilities are only limited by our imaginations - imagine printing out the chrome grilles on the front corner marker lights for a 1970 Cadillac out of a chrome like material in an hour, instead of re-chroming an original for like $1,000 and two months with a risk the chrome thickness makes it not fit anymore.
Here is an example of a part I reproduced. I started out with an NOS part and I made a few sketches of it.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG-6800.jpg&hash=59ca0fe24bae9e6246449a0747dabaef1ee06adb)
From that, I made a solid model of the part to be able to print it.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FFront%2520headlight%2520trim.png&hash=2ea3a3173ea8c25d2882c98da17ea1ca8a913333)
After that, I printed sections of the part out to test fit it on the housing it mounted to.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG-6802.jpg&hash=7b1d1f0bd8f761492a63fc50f4eed64c2fae02e4)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG-6801.jpg&hash=bd6621bc7e70c6a1776674f66ce49de6584fb65d)
Once I was satisfied with the geometry, I had it professionally printed. The white one was the printed version.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_4950.JPG&hash=77f69f92174512bbecb5344632f6d6a9cdb7a6ea)
From there, I prepped and painted it.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_5139.JPG&hash=39ec6349612b8d03e2495926c8a97565f79948ba)
And then I mounted it to the housing and then the assembly to the car.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_5140.JPG&hash=62dcfccf84421f8905592c88196e475e78bff4ae)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_5159.JPG&hash=8991733fa82af349a2ccbf8c62887c8320c8c0e3)
I did the same process for the turn signal filler: model, prototype, professionally print and then paint and install. Once you have one of them, making the other side is a simple click of a button.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG-6803.jpg&hash=94ecf66679d03f4538aaeef4178715b87791a3e6)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG-6804.jpg&hash=2c00c2b097dd61c59823a7b0818bd42568dd1427)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_5855.JPG&hash=68202ec23a86947d5be7020bde2eec407b4fd217)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_6033.JPG&hash=3340ac4169d2a9df87d4c2c1b2e83cd0f73cc954)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_6037.JPG&hash=db085cdc6459b0594402f1dbdcad35150d3deba8)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_6038.JPG&hash=9efa2879671dcf871b4c5ef5ed098a41571979f3)
Also, once you have the parts modeled, you can make changes to improve on them. For example, why do the two parts above need to be two parts?
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2Ffront%2520trim%2520render.png&hash=441caef3f0d549da331ae2e969e1a4e5e1b06229)
WOW!!!!!!
Here is something else I printed and just used as is from my home machine. It's a support collar and distributor adapter for an oil pump priming tool. I used a steel rod for the actual pump spinner and 3D printed parts for the supports. I even was able to integrate in helical oiling groves in the collar so it would not wear out so quickly.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_5559.JPG&hash=6ad1ab69b0f3b2c997d8c70f20bdec045c8771b9)
Matt's first photos of the below the headlight piece is a good example of how for prototyping you can deal with a smaller printer. Obviously for that application you probably would not want your final product in 3 pieces to be glued or bolted together but it works great for prototyping. And I think it was Scott who said someday it will be like Kinkos, boy that dates us all doesn't it? Didn't they stop using that name in the early 2000's? As far as I can tell at least where I live it is that way now. I google 3d printing and get about a dozen hits and 11 of them are shops that will print for you and that is just local. Internationally there are even more options I do live in a fairly large metro area so it may not be that way for everyone yet but I'm sure its coming.
For some parts and some people the hobbyist quality parts may be more than good enough. Take something simple like a knob or lever or like I mentioned above a clip for a sun visor. Sure if you look close you could tell it was a home 3d print but compared to having a missing or broken part or maybe having to pay a lot for a 'real' one if you can find one it may be a great option. The ability to be able to take them to a 'pro' and get them made from just about any material you can afford is just a bonus.
So far I have mostly printed other people's designs but have successfully made 2 of my own. My next projects which are still simple designs are going to be toolbox organizers. I figure those should be good things to learn about because they are all basic simple shapes so I stand a good chance of success rather than getting frustrated trying to design something too complex. The next one I'm planning is some sort of rack to hold some long allen socket bits I have that are always rolling around loose in the drawer. After that I will likely look and see what the next set is that is rolling around loose. The allens drive me nuts (or should I say fasteners? ha ha) because at a glance they all look pretty similar so its hard to tell or guess the sizes unless they are all in line. The are not like regular sockets where the diameters and heights vary so are easier to identify.
Here is something else that people with 425/472/500ci engines are familiar with: the spark plug wire clip that mounts to the rocker cover bolt posts.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FThree%2520wire%2520clip%2520right.png&hash=ab0fd81718e66012ec66a88775fefad55a6a23f5)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_7516.jpg&hash=fb6155938da4b68f306b65c11457e8d58baf890f)
I just have not bothered to print them out of a durable material yet but they do fit and work as intended.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on April 09, 2020, 02:21:22 PM
Matt's first photos of the below the headlight piece is a good example of how for prototyping you can deal with a smaller printer. Obviously for that application you probably would not want your final product in 3 pieces to be glued or bolted together but it works great for prototyping. And I think it was Scott who said someday it will be like Kinkos, boy that dates us all doesn't it? Didn't they stop using that name in the early 2000's? As far as I can tell at least where I live it is that way now. I google 3d printing and get about a dozen hits and 11 of them are shops that will print for you and that is just local. Internationally there are even more options I do live in a fairly large metro area so it may not be that way for everyone yet but I'm sure its coming.
For some parts and some people the hobbyist quality parts may be more than good enough. Take something simple like a knob or lever or like I mentioned above a clip for a sun visor. Sure if you look close you could tell it was a home 3d print but compared to having a missing or broken part or maybe having to pay a lot for a 'real' one if you can find one it may be a great option. The ability to be able to take them to a 'pro' and get them made from just about any material you can afford is just a bonus.
So far I have mostly printed other people's designs but have successfully made 2 of my own. My next projects which are still simple designs are going to be toolbox organizers. I figure those should be good things to learn about because they are all basic simple shapes so I stand a good chance of success rather than getting frustrated trying to design something too complex. The next one I'm planning is some sort of rack to hold some long allen socket bits I have that are always rolling around loose in the drawer. After that I will likely look and see what the next set is that is rolling around loose. The allens drive me nuts (or should I say fasteners? ha ha) because at a glance they all look pretty similar so its hard to tell or guess the sizes unless they are all in line. The are not like regular sockets where the diameters and heights vary so are easier to identify.
Personally, I use Shapeways to do my professional printing. They are reasonably priced and have a huge variety of materials and methods available. I have been making and selling 3D printed reproduction parts for old video game systems for years now and Shapeways has always come though for me.
Here is what can be printed with a state of the art, full color 3D printer. This was printed as shown below with nothing done to it after it was printed.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2Fj750%2520example%2520-%2520small.jpg&hash=ed80cc6b5c249c8401ee9c8155fcc3b7c8acaf34)
You can also 3D print metal:
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2F3d%2520printed%2520metal.jpg&hash=1e358c362fa84416c69e5d148311be89885259a3)
Yes to most of us darn near seems like there is no limit to what can be done today. I know they are literally 3d printing rocket engines that have successfully got payloads into space. I'm sure for an an engineer or some other highly skilled person there are still limits but its growing by leaps and bounds practically daily.
I have not actually contacted any of the local shops yet and I'm sure some of them just have really good websites and are just people in their mom's basement with a $150 printer but at least one of them I recognize as a company that has been doing a lot of custom cnc stuff for years and had a pretty big facility so chances are decent they are legit pro's.
The other great use for hobbyist 3d printing is where you don't actually need a 3d printed part for the final project. The 3d printed part may just be some sort of fixture or jig to make it easier to make what ever it is you are making. Think of things like the Kreg pocket hole jigs. You could fairly easily design and print something similar to that especially if you didn't need it to last for 100's of holes. Even if it did need to last there are ways to do metal inserts. Maybe you just need a stand to hold your climate control programmer steady on your workbench? Tons of uses where the 3d print just helps you get to the end goal.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on April 09, 2020, 02:54:22 PM
Yes to most of us darn near seems like there is no limit to what can be done today. I know they are literally 3d printing rocket engines that have successfully got payloads into space. I'm sure for an an engineer or some other highly skilled person there are still limits but its growing by leaps and bounds practically daily.
I have not actually contacted any of the local shops yet and I'm sure some of them just have really good websites and are just people in their mom's basement with a $150 printer but at least one of them I recognize as a company that has been doing a lot of custom cnc stuff for years and had a pretty big facility so chances are decent they are legit pro's.
The other great use for hobbyist 3d printing is where you don't actually need a 3d printed part for the final project. The 3d printed part may just be some sort of fixture or jig to make it easier to make what ever it is you are making. Think of things like the Kreg pocket hole jigs. You could fairly easily design and print something similar to that especially if you didn't need it to last for 100's of holes. Even if it did need to last there are ways to do metal inserts. Maybe you just need a stand to hold your climate control programmer steady on your workbench? Tons of uses where the 3d print just helps you get to the end goal.
I just printed a jig for a project last night.
I visited the NASA JPL centre in California last year, I have a friend who works there. Anyway, while we were there another friend of my brother turned up and he worked in the engineering dept. He showed us round there and i was really impressed with the 3D printing being done in metal. They made what they called metal fabric, like chainmail. I know NASA is obviously cutting edge but I think the potential for small production runs of rare metal parts will be affordable on machines like these in the not too distant future. Phil
Quote from: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on April 09, 2020, 03:27:56 PM
I visited the NASA JPL centre in California last year, I have a friend who works there. Anyway, while we were there another friend of my brother turned up and he worked in the engineering dept. He showed us round there and i was really impressed with the 3D printing being done in metal. They made what they called metal fabric, like chainmail. I know NASA is obviously cutting edge but I think the potential for small production runs of rare metal parts will be affordable on machines like these in the not too distant future. Phil
You can do this right now.
I'm sure NASA is able to print some pretty exotic materials including metal but I think even some of my local websites say they can do 1 off parts in aluminum and stainless. I imagine its not the identical stuff you would machine but it must share a lot of the properties to be still called aluminum or stainless. I believe its a centering process that starts as a powder which they have been doing gears and other cast like parts out of for several years now. The difference is before it was more of a mold casting process that was baked where as the 3d version I think uses a laser to 'melt' or center the metal. Center as in the middle and centered as in the metal process appear to be spelled the same, gotta like English eh?
Chainmail is a reasonable example of something you can do with a 3d printing process that you can't do the same way with other methods. I assume the only way to manufacture the stuff in the past was you has to make the link with an opening so it could be inserted in the next link. Once inserted you then had to close it up somehow which would effect the time look and possible the strength of the product. If your link had to be flexible enough to be bent closed that would mean it would take a similar amount of force to un bend and fail it. With a 3d print the parts are just created at the same time so there doesn't have to be a design compromise just because you have to be able to assemble it. May be other compromises but for some products you get a better product. I think that is one reason they are doing rocket engines and medical parts. The 3d process allows once piece designs that would have been impossible to assemble.
One of my first prints was a cat toy that was a hollow ball with small holes about the size of a golf ball with a small ball inside it. My cats didn't care but I thought it was a neat demo. I can't find it at the moment but another demo I printed was a gear bearing. Its a planetary sort of design with the gears having hearing bone teeth so they stay in place. Mine is more of a fidget spinner sort of thing but just the fact that I could print something that spins fairly freely after spending less than $500 and a couple weeks tinkering around really shows the possibilities.
I'm the person who printed out the windshield-wiper-motor cover for my 67 Eldorado. That was my first foray into printing ABS parts a few years ago.
I have a cheap ($300) printer that has a "hot-end" modification, meaning it can print materials at slightly higher temperatures than it could out of the box. For automotive parts, you typically need to use 3D filaments that require higher temperatures to print. ABS plastic is just about the lowest-temperature material you can get away with for the demanding automotive environment. My printer can just barely reach a printing temperature that allows it to use nylon. But at that point, if I want a quality print using a more temperature-resistant material, I'd be better off shipping my design off the the aforementioned Shapeways.
That's the process I used to create one of my favorite (to date) pieces. I wanted to put 1968 mirrors on my 1967 Eldorado. Most of the Eldorado body pieces between 1967 and 1970 are interchangeable. But thanks to the safety regulations of 1968, the external rear-view mirrors needed to be a) larger, and b) able to break away from the door more easily. Therefore the way the 1968 mirror mounts to the door differs completely from 1967's solid, simple attachment. I wanted an adapter that would allow me to attach a 1968 mirror to a 1967 door without requiring me to modify either the door or the mirror.
I've attached a pic of the result (fitted to the 1968 mirror). It is a solid aluminum print from Shapeways. Although I printed a number of prototypes in ABS to get the sizes right, plastic would not be strong enough to actually hold the mirror to the door under real-world conditions. Shapeways offers a number of materials, but all the metals other than aluminum are sintered together from the powdered form of the metal (e.g. steel). Aluminum was the only metal that Shapeways could actually "melt" into one solid piece using a laser 3D printer.
That piece (along with a tiny retainer you can't see) cost about $100 to print and required about a month of turnaround time. So it isn't like taking film to a one-hour photo (if anyone does that anymore).
Generally speaking, in most cases it is probably faster to fashion a piece out of metal or fiberglass than it is to model and print. And printable materials are going to be quite limited for the foreseeable future. But once you've got it done, you at least have all the dimensions of the part in your computer. :-)
Mitchell,
The parts that you have made for your car are amazing.
I need some of the spark plug plastic holders for a 1973 500 engine.
Would you consider selling me a set of 4?
Thanks
Brian
So should we have a Folder or a thread for everyone to add their files too with pictures of the final product so everyone has access to them? This seems like it will be come the normal soon so why not get a head of it now here.
Quote from: 76eldo on April 10, 2020, 08:29:48 AM
Mitchell,
The parts that you have made for your car are amazing.
I need some of the spark plug plastic holders for a 1973 500 engine.
Would you consider selling me a set of 4?
Thanks
Brian
Those are readily available from Dorman through your local parts store (they can order them if not in stock) or Amazon, eBay etc. Dorman makes them in 2, 3, or 4 hole configurations.
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/dorman-help-spark-plug-wire-retainers-40283/9110092-p?product_channel=local&store=9232&adtype=pla&product_channel=local&store_code=9232&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIj4GH6YTe6AIVBp-fCh1lRQ8MEAQYBSABEgLRUfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
TJ,
You mentioned centered metal, are you referring to the word "sintered" metal? Just curious, i know that the old bronze fuel filter was made of sintered bronze.
Rick
Quote from: 35-709 on April 10, 2020, 10:14:34 AM
Those are readily available from Dorman through your local parts store (they can order them if not in stock) or Amazon, eBay etc. Dorman makes them in 2, 3, or 4 hole configurations.
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/dorman-help-spark-plug-wire-retainers-40283/9110092-p?product_channel=local&store=9232&adtype=pla&product_channel=local&store_code=9232&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIj4GH6YTe6AIVBp-fCh1lRQ8MEAQYBSABEgLRUfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Those are not the same thing.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on April 10, 2020, 10:35:03 AM
TJ,
You mentioned centered metal, are you referring to the word "sintered" metal? Just curious, i know that the old bronze fuel filter was made of sintered bronze.
Rick
There are two different processed used to 3D print metal. One uses a resin binder to hold the metal particles in place and then the part is vacuum sintered and a filler metal is introduced to take the place of the resin. The other process melts the metal powder directly with a laser and the part is completed in the printer with no secondary operations needed.
Quote from: Cadman-iac on April 10, 2020, 10:35:03 AM
TJ,
You mentioned centered metal, are you referring to the word "sintered" metal? Just curious, i know that the old bronze fuel filter was made of sintered bronze.
Rick
I do believe you are correct. When I first typed it as centered that didn't look correct so I did a quick search and got a lot of hits for centered metals but now that I look closer at that that term appears to have to do with the internal make up of metals and not the process of making solids by heating a powder which is sintering.
Quote from: MaR on April 10, 2020, 11:57:25 AM
Those are not the same thing.
OK, sorry, do you have a picture of what
is the same thing?
Quote from: 35-709 on April 10, 2020, 01:18:03 PM
OK, sorry, do you have a picture of what is the same thing?
What I posted is correct part.
Ah yes, have not seen that type without the little arm that snaps in place to hold the wires from coming out. Thank you.
Quote from: 35-709 on April 10, 2020, 01:51:06 PM
Ah yes, have not seen that type without the little arm that snaps in place to hold the wires from coming out. Thank you.
The funny thing about it, there is a left and a right one but the only difference is the notch on the back side.
Adapters like the wrong year mirror thing is also a great application. May be a lot of things similar where there was a one year or part year item that is really similar to a many year one. That could really help a lot of people that just want something that is mostly correct and functional.
I had to replace the small vacuum manifold which sits on my 1968 DeVille's firewall. One of the pins broke off and I was not able to get one using the usual suspects (even if, it would have cost ~$100). Since this one also contains a check valve, I was not able to create a single working replacement part, but they sell small vacuum check valves for less than $10 which do the job. My first prototype was made out of PLA which is of course not stable enough so I ordered some of this filament: https://3dk.berlin/en/3dktop-heat-resistent/195-3dktop-black.html - it should withstand temperatures of 230 °C (450 °F) after curing it in the oven. The filament just arrived, I will test it the next days.
I also support Highwayman68's proposal to somehow make the designs available to anyone who needs them. A thread like this one for a quick summary would be nice and we could place the files and a more detailed description on a site like https://www.thingiverse.com. Would anybody like to join?
Quote from: thoralt on April 14, 2020, 07:10:28 AM
... I ordered some of this filament: https://3dk.berlin/en/3dktop-heat-resistent/195-3dktop-black.html - it should withstand temperatures of 230 °C (450 °F) after curing it in the oven.
That filament looks interesting. I'd try it except my old, cheap 3D printer shuts itself off when the printer-head temperature goes past 255 °C. Time to get a new printer!
Interesting filament. I was wondering if what we usually think of as metal process like tempering and hardening would work on plastic and it looks like the answer is yes. 260*C has to be right on the edge for a lot of hot end designs. Isn't the PTFE tubing break down right about there? Considering some PLA's are only 180 and the high end for them is 225 25-30 headroom seems like a reasonable design.
For those following along some more basics....
The printer components we are talking about here is the extruder and hot end. The hot end is literally that. Its a hollow chunk of something that contains the heating element and has the nozzle attached to it. Its darn near identical to a hot glue gun except the scale is a little different. Overall concept is pretty much identical on al the designs but the precision and ability to maintain a temp at different feed rates does vary as well as methods of containing the heat where its needed so you are not melting material anywhere other than right before the nozzle. If you think about that that is easier said than done. You want the material fully melted in the nozzle but a few MM away you want it to still be solid. You also don't want any part of the machine to melt.
The extruder is the part that feeds the filament into the hot end which supplies the material and the pressure to squirt it out of the nozzle. Again think of the hot glue gun but instead of a trigger lever action its a computer controlled motor with sharp gear on it that has the filament clamped against it so when it turns it feeds filament. The most common and least expensive way to make all this work is something called a Bowden design which is were the exruder mechanism isn't mounted directly to the hot end. It can me mounted almost anywhere on the machine because there is basically a hose between it and the hot end so its flexible.
Advantages is its cheap and easy to implement. Also reduces the number of wires and mass at the moving hot end which you are trying to precisely control. More mass means more inertia so everything needs to be stronger to keep things precise especially as the scale increases. Disadvantage is since the extruder pushing the filament is what makes it 'squirt' you loose some precision in that aspect because the fit and flex of the filament and the tube over the length of the tube isn't perfect or consistent. Think of the hot glue gun or a caulking gun. There is a delay from when you apply the pressure till when the product comes out. Also think what happens when you release the trigger and in most caulk guns hit that extra release to retract the plunger a bit. There is a delay before the stuff quits coming out. In printing this is also called retraction where the extruder reverses to quickly release the pressure and hopefully quit the stuff coming out.
There are printer designs where the extruder is part of the hot end and it has its advantages as far as better control of the filament but the disadvantages I mentioned above making it a more complex and larger mass you are trying to precisely control. On a proper design (not most conversions) a direct drive gets rid of that hose/tube which becomes a real weak point when you are trying to maintain high temps like the material linked above.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on April 14, 2020, 12:19:10 PM260*C has to be right on the edge for a lot of hot end designs. Isn't the PTFE tubing break down right about there?
You should keep PTFE temps down below 240°C to be sure you're OK. That means that ABS printing isn't a good idea with a PTFE head.
Sorry for bumping an "old" thread but thought I'd jump in.
I'm the lead additive engineer for a $7b medical engineering company. I can print damn near anything in pretty much any material. I've got a full spool of 17-4 stainless filament sitting here as well that I plan to run on some Cadillac parts.
If I can help out with anything from CAD design to prototyping to full printing of any challenging parts just let me know.
Just did a full run of Titanium printed parts too.
Quote from: MaR on April 10, 2020, 12:00:53 PM
There are two different processed used to 3D print metal. One uses a resin binder to hold the metal particles in place and then the part is vacuum sintered and a filler metal is introduced to take the place of the resin. The other process melts the metal powder directly with a laser and the part is completed in the printer with no secondary operations needed.
Not entirely accurate. Running metal through an FDM machine does require a filament with metal powder in a binding matrix but the part is just washed and sintered normally, burning out the binder and leaving only metal. No filler metal needs to be added. The finish is quite smooth but at the same time you're limited by the accuracy and design limitations of an FDM. This printer you can pickup for $200k give or take. The tricky part (and the reason you can't just run a metal filament through any FDM) is that sintering the part scales it down a unique amount based on the metal being used and the part geometry. I can run the same filament through a $150 printer and a $200,000 printer...both will print a metal part...but one will have useless tolerances and no dimensional accuracy and the other will be within 100 micron. Scale factors are key here.
Direct Metal Laser Sintering (DMLS) is the highest end metal printing. We just quoted out a 4 laser system at $2.25M for our facility. These parts are solid, not honeycomb as you'd usually find on any FDM driven process, and are of higher accuracy (can hold +/-0.002") BUT the part comes out in a very cast appearance. These parts would then go in for post-processing to arrive at the surface finish or tolerances required. This is what you'd use for rocket engines/advanced aero/medical/etc. Last year I was offered a job as lead additive engineer for a certain rocket engine company in Socal that uses the exact machine we're talking about: Inconel rocket engines.
Quote from: 39Flathead on May 21, 2020, 10:21:05 AM
Sorry for bumping an "old" thread but thought I'd jump in.
I'm the lead additive engineer for a $7b medical engineering company. I can print damn near anything in pretty much any material. I've got a full spool of 17-4 stainless filament sitting here as well that I plan to run on some Cadillac parts.
If I can help out with anything from CAD design to prototyping to full printing of any challenging parts just let me know.
Just did a full run of Titanium printed parts too.
What is the limits of your print bed for something like nylon or ABS? Can you print something 29" long?
Quote from: MaR on May 21, 2020, 10:54:14 AM
What is the limits of your print bed for something like nylon or ABS? Can you print something 29" long?
I don't do much work with FDM printers as they aren't really a production tool. I do run 4 FDM printers that run Nylon with full carbon fiber strand, finished product is approximately as strong as Al 6061.
For something 29" long I would either use a large format FDM (should be getting one next month that is 4'x4x4') or I would use a big HP 5200 series and let the software determine how to dowel pin larger pieces together. This is the printer and joining style used by several top private jet companies as the parts are supportless, highest repeatibility, incredibly fast, and takes a nickel coating well that makes it indistinguishable from chrome metal at a tiny fraction of the weight. Also UV resistance and water/airtight.
The equipment we run most commonly is:
FDM: Nylon with solid carbon fiber or kevlar reinforcement, 6061 Al replacement. 12x6x5"
MJF: Nylon PA 12 with no support required. 15x15x11" extremely fast and accurate
SLA: resins from heat resistant (2000F+ max, but I typically use the 550F max plastic for radiator adaptors) to 40A silicones to ABS replicas to polypropylene etc. MUCH better resolution than FDM. 7x7x8"
Atomic Diffusion Metal: 12x12x8", think we have 17-4 PH running now but I think tool steel and maybe Ti are floating around too.
DMLS: 25x20x20" currently only running Ti64 although I have some Al parts from it too.
Quote from: 39Flathead on May 21, 2020, 11:01:02 AM
I don't do much work with FDM printers as they aren't really a production tool. I do run 4 FDM printers that run Nylon with full carbon fiber strand, finished product is approximately as strong as Al 6061.
For something 29" long I would either use a large format FDM (should be getting one next month that is 4'x4x4') or I would use a big HP 5200 series and let the software determine how to dowel pin larger pieces together. This is the printer and joining style used by several top private jet companies as the parts are supportless, highest repeatibility, incredibly fast, and takes a nickel coating well that makes it indistinguishable from chrome metal at a tiny fraction of the weight. Also UV resistance and water/airtight.
I usually have my "production parts" printed by Shapeways on an EOS P 770 SLS printer but this particular part is just a bit too big to do it in one piece.
Maybe we are not far from having a mobile service like they now do for rain gutters. You long into a site like Rock Auto and instead of them shipping you a part a truck shows up in front of your house and spits out the parts?
Quote from: MaR on May 21, 2020, 11:06:37 AM
I usually have my "production parts" printed by Shapeways on an EOS P 770 SLS printer but this particular part is just a bit too big to do it in one piece.
Yup we're currently exploring the EOS M400-4.
We've printed 60"x24"x24" prints on our HP. We have an additional $20,000 software license to break down larger parts in optimal paths.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on May 21, 2020, 11:09:04 AM
Maybe we are not far from having a mobile service like they now do for rain gutters. You long into a site like Rock Auto and instead of them shipping you a part a truck shows up in front of your house and spits out the parts?
Doubt it. Shipping is cheap and many of the more advanced printers have very complex environmental requirements. Makes more sense to operate large print farms and spend the $10 shipping a part.
I suppose it would end up being a truck like those mobile cat scan lab things that carries its own power and climate which also doesn't come cheap. I did read that they either have or are soon getting a printer on the space station. That's kinda neat and a good application because shipping there is a little slow and expensive. Like the article said imagine if there was such a technology on Apollo 13 they could have just printed an adapter for their air scrubber. If they get the cookie oven thing perfected it would be just like my basement setup where I eat cookies and watch the printer doing its thing while the world goes by literally in their case.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on May 21, 2020, 11:28:40 AM
I suppose it would end up being a truck like those mobile cat scan lab things that carries its own power and climate which also doesn't come cheap. I did read that they either have or are soon getting a printer on the space station. That's kinda neat and a good application because shipping there is a little slow and expensive. Like the article said imagine if there was such a technology on Apollo 13 they could have just printed an adapter for their air scrubber. If they get the cookie oven thing perfected it would be just like my basement setup where I eat cookies and watch the printer doing its thing while the world goes by literally in their case.
Just don't see it being a thing. Prints aren't quick. Even our fastest printers take 10kW and 9 hours to print a full build + 30 hours cooling time. No reason to truck it around.
I have a few printers in my garage for when I need to fab something and a guide is helpful, but mainly I have a multi multi million dollar print lab at work.
Anyways if anyone needs design work or parts made for car related projects just let me know. I'd be happy to help out with whatever resources I can offer.
Quote from: 39Flathead on May 21, 2020, 12:49:22 PM
Just don't see it being a thing. Prints aren't quick. Even our fastest printers take 10kW and 9 hours to print a full build + 30 hours cooling time. No reason to truck it around.
I have a few printers in my garage for when I need to fab something and a guide is helpful, but mainly I have a multi multi million dollar print lab at work.
Anyways if anyone needs design work or parts made for car related projects just let me know. I'd be happy to help out with whatever resources I can offer.
I have a few metal projects that I may take you up on that offer. I'm assuming that you can work with .stl files or do you need the native models?
Quote from: MaR on May 21, 2020, 01:28:06 PM
I have a few metal projects that I may take you up on that offer. I'm assuming that you can work with .stl files or do you need the native models?
Every printer can work with STL. If you want a hand doing any DFaM or optimization then I would need either a Solidworks file or STEP.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on May 21, 2020, 11:09:04 AM
Maybe we are not far from having a mobile service like they now do for rain gutters. You long into a site like Rock Auto and instead of them shipping you a part a truck shows up in front of your house and spits out the parts?
Oh the possibilities of how the service will evolve is awesome, your suggestion fits right in.
I just started playing with Fusion360 a bit and noticed there are quite a few ways to save and export the projects. I don't remember what the default is but I assume that is a propitiatory Autodesk Fusion format that really only works well in Fusion or maybe other Autodesk products? All the big players have their own formats? And I assume some sort of kind of can translate and others can't but like everything some things can be lost in translation?
STL I'm assuming is just a format that is about as basic and universal as you can get kinda like the final old school paper 'blue print'.
For those following along what we are talking about here is the designs are made in some sort of software program of which there are several major players as well as likely 100's of others. Once you have a object designed is what I'm kind of asking about. I think an STL is like a blue print. Its got most of the info you need to construct the object. You then feed that STL file into what in the hobby 3d printing game we call a slicer. The slicer is software running on your computer that basically slices the object up and figures out how to actually print it in your particular machine. The slicer creates a G code with is a somewhat universal thing that many CNC type of machines use.
A G code is a fairly simple program list that just about literally says 'move this to here' 'move that to there' 'do this' which in the case of the hobby printer would be a X, Y, Z coordinate and then how much material to feed into what is basically the hot glue gun end to make it squirt out. You can control most if not all aspects of the machine with the code which means there are specifics for each machine. A big commercial milling machine may have many different tools available that all need a code. Different machines will have different cooling and lubrication options that all have codes so its one of those things that is but isn't universal. The slicer or what ever program is figuring out how to build it needs to know the specifics of the machine its designing for so that is why you rarely see designs distributed as G code. Even if the machines are the same there still could be subtle differences that need to be taken into account so the step before G code is often very closely related and often located near the machine that is doing the work.
You can 'reverse engineer' something from Gcode as well as an STL file but the result isn't going to be as good or as fast as if you got that file from much earlier in the process. Earlier in the process especially when you are still in the original software's domain you get a lot of aids to make things easier when dealing with complex parts like layers and assemblies. Its pretty cool when you have a minor flaw or a very similar part when you can just go back and copy something or make a minor tweak without having to start from scratch.
Most of the programs have libraries of common things like threads. I would imagine most industries build their own libraries so they rarely have to start from scratch with anything. You know that all your products have 4 wheels so you just grab those 4 wheels out of the library. You know you need a chassis so you grab the 122" WB chassis and paste that to the wheels. You go grab an engine and a body and an interior and you have a car darn near ready for production and you really have not had to design anything yet you were just grabbing things 'off the shelf'.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on May 21, 2020, 02:22:04 PM
I just started playing with Fusion360 a bit and noticed there are quite a few ways to save and export the projects. I don't remember what the default is but I assume that is a propitiatory Autodesk Fusion format that really only works well in Fusion or maybe other Autodesk products? All the big players have their own formats? And I assume some sort of kind of can translate and others can't but like everything some things can be lost in translation?
STL I'm assuming is just a format that is about as basic and universal as you can get kinda like the final old school paper 'blue print'.
For those following along what we are talking about here is the designs are made in some sort of software program of which there are several major players as well as likely 100's of others. Once you have a object designed is what I'm kind of asking about. I think an STL is like a blue print. Its got most of the info you need to construct the object. You then feed that STL file into what in the hobby 3d printing game we call a slicer. The slicer is software running on your computer that basically slices the object up and figures out how to actually print it in your particular machine. The slicer creates a G code with is a somewhat universal thing that many CNC type of machines use.
A G code is a fairly simple program list that just about literally says 'move this to here' 'move that to there' 'do this' which in the case of the hobby printer would be a X, Y, Z coordinate and then how much material to feed into what is basically the hot glue gun end to make it squirt out. You can control most if not all aspects of the machine with the code which means there are specifics for each machine. A big commercial milling machine may have many different tools available that all need a code. Different machines will have different cooling and lubrication options that all have codes so its one of those things that is but isn't universal. The slicer or what ever program is figuring out how to build it needs to know the specifics of the machine its designing for so that is why you rarely see designs distributed as G code. Even if the machines are the same there still could be subtle differences that need to be taken into account so the step before G code is often very closely related and often located near the machine that is doing the work.
You can 'reverse engineer' something from Gcode as well as an STL file but the result isn't going to be as good or as fast as if you got that file from much earlier in the process. Earlier in the process especially when you are still in the original software's domain you get a lot of aids to make things easier when dealing with complex parts like layers and assemblies. Its pretty cool when you have a minor flaw or a very similar part when you can just go back and copy something or make a minor tweak without having to start from scratch.
Most of the programs have libraries of common things like threads. I would imagine most industries build their own libraries so they rarely have to start from scratch with anything. You know that all your products have 4 wheels so you just grab those 4 wheels out of the library. You know you need a chassis so you grab the 122" WB chassis and paste that to the wheels. You go grab an engine and a body and an interior and you have a car darn near ready for production and you really have not had to design anything yet you were just grabbing things 'off the shelf'.
Correct but a few things to note. Output settings into an STL are critical. I can't tell you how many of our engineers (20+ year experience guys) send me STL files that are useless as they didn't choose the proper settings for the part in the STL output menu. I reject them and they have to go back and output into STL with the proper parameters for the part.
We also have pre-processing software that slots in between STL and slicer. We mostly use proprietary slicing software most relevant to that print style but first the part will be run through a pre-processor that is capable of modifying the STL file in ways that CAD would be inefficient for and a slicer would not have the functionality to do. These software are usually $20K annually give or take, for a single seat.
Then we get into the challenges of Design for Additive Manuf. (DfAM) which is mostly what drives the salaries of additive engineers.
Gentlemen,
This is one of the most meaningful posts I’ve seen here in some time. I’d like to offer a suggestion for clarity. I'm thinking of interested members who don't even know what they don't know. How does one get started and are there special skills? Use the full names for materials and equipment and some description of the material’s property i.e.: soft or hard plastic, soft metal etc. Is there a reference source of available materials for printing? Is there a reference source for machine capabilities so that the novice can get what they think they need?
By education and experience I can design and fully detail complicated machines or structures; but my tools are a drafting board with a slide rule and calculator…. (remember those?) I left the hands on practice of engineering before the advent of computer aided design capabilities. I do know how the 3D printing process works but hope someone would please explain how designs/ drawings as shown above by “MaR†are entered into the printer? If’ I’m holding a finished dimensioned drawing of a part, how do ask the printer to make one? Is it by scanning the image or written code?
Keep goin’ guys……very educational
Quote from: Ralph Messina CLC 4937 on May 21, 2020, 05:04:34 PM
Gentlemen,
This is one of the most meaningful posts I’ve seen here in some time. I’d like to offer a suggestion for clarity. I'm thinking of interested members who don't even know what they don't know. How does one get started and are there special skills? Use the full names for materials and equipment and some description of the material’s property i.e.: soft or hard plastic, soft metal etc. Is there a reference source of available materials for printing? Is there a reference source for machine capabilities so that the novice can get what they think they need?
By education and experience I can design and fully detail complicated machines or structures; but my tools are a drafting board with a slide rule and calculator…. (remember those?) I left the hands on practice of engineering before the advent of computer aided design capabilities. I do know how the 3D printing process works but hope someone would please explain how designs/ drawings as shown above by “MaR†are entered into the printer? If’ I’m holding a finished dimensioned drawing of a part, how do ask the printer to make one? Is it by scanning the image or written code?
Keep goin’ guys……very educational
The most basic process flow is as follows:
1) Design your part. Some of my best design work has happened on a napkin at a bar after a few drinks. Or design it in your head. Or literally any drawing will do fine.
2) Design your part on the computer. If you have a CAD program (some are free, some are expensive) then go ahead and model your part up as you drew it on paper. A free CAD software would work fine here. The more expensive software, Solidworks/Creo/Catia/etc. build on that by offering advanced simulation capabilities to see how your part reacts under given stresses/fatigue/thermal/flow/etc. for a selected material.
3) Save your 3D model as normal. Then also export that file into an STL file. An STL is a Stereolithography file that is basically a 3D model without the ability to modify it or even learn much. It's basically a dumb 3D model. It cannot be modified or converted back into CAD easily.
4) Slicing. This is the intermediate step that converts your 3D model into code. The basic idea is take your part and literally turn it into layers. Your 5" tall part printed at say...50 micron layer height (each layer of print is literally 50 microns thick) and so 5" = 127,000 microns. So your slicer is literally taking your part and turning it into 2,540 layers of print. It will also create all the "tool paths" for your print head to follow.
5) Printing. Basically just export that sliced file right into the printer. Some of them this is a proprietary software that comes with your printer as a free download. Sometimes, especially on hobby level gear, you'll find they use a commonly used open source software that you select your printer on a list.
That is the most basic process flow in 3D printing, in my opinion.
Now there are various print styles:
FDM - Fused Deposition Modeling, the most basic of 3D printing. Probably what people are most familiar with. Plastic filament on a spool is pushed through a very hot nozzle onto a platform. The nozzle melts the plastic as it comes out and your print is built up layer by layer. Common materials are PLA, ABS, Nylon, PETG, PEEK, and others. This printer typically prints in a honeycomb pattern with solid exterior walls and roofs. The most advanced FDM machines can also impregnate plastic with solid carbon fiber, kevlar, or fiberglass to make them about as strong as 6061 Aluminum.
SLA - Stereolithography. A liquid resin replaces the hard plastic used above. In SLA a liquid container of resin is shot with a laser in specific paths to cure it instantly. Each layer is pathed and cured before the print moves to provide a new layer of liquid resin to be cured. This is usually a much more accurate, much smoother part than FDM and prints much faster as you only have to move a laser beam and not a whole print head. These parts will be solid all the way through. The materials can vary much more than on an FDM and won't have typical plastic names. They are typically proprietary blends of resin that may imitate other materials.
I could go into Multi-Jet Fusion, Selective Laser Sintering, Direct Metal Laser Sintering, Atomic Diffusion, Electron Beam Melting, and many other print methods but those are primarily used for advanced prototyping or very expensive production.
Your comment about scanning an image: it is possible to 3D scan a part you have a physical copy of and print that. Typically there are some intermediate steps though.
As far as special skills: getting into 3D printing as a hobbyist is very easy and cheap. You can pick up a small FDM machine for $100 on amazon and rolls of PLA are maybe $20/kg. PLA is a great material to learn on as it's very cheap, very forgiving, and compostable. Moving further into additive engineering usually will at the very least require a degree in the field and experience with designing for additive, knowing which printer to use for what part, knowing which material to use for a given need, and how to run equipment.
39Flathead
Thanks for your explanation. Very helpful and easily understood.
I've been following this thread since it was started. This would be the perfect solution for reproducing the flimsy plastic center armrest hinges used on the '67-'70 Eldorado with bench seat, but fabricated in metal instead.
I've considered making my own out of fiberglass strand and resin using a wooden mold for each side for each piece. I've also considered making new pieces out of metal, but it would take 3 pieces of metal welded together for each side.
If you have a non computerized design I think there are services that will take it from there and get you the part in the material of your choice especially if you have a 'professional' detailed proper paper drawing. Stained napkin may be take a little more. How professional and the type of material is where the cost varies.
I think you can find a person online that may help for a 6 pack and maybe even print out a plastic sample on a hobby printer to make sure the design is good. If you then have what you think is the part you want and some digital files for said part you are in a much better position to get a professional or semi pro company to make you a part for what most would consider a reasonable cost.
For the hinge concept the way I would see that is the napkin drawing goes to the beer guy who makes a cheap plastic sample on his hobby printer then gives you the digital files. You send those files to a machine shop who then instead of feeding the original file into the slicer for the hobby printer puts them into the software for their CNC mill. In either the case of the CNC mill or some sort of 3d print that place could be anywhere in the world which is why just about anything is possible at a wide range of prices.
As for the people that are interested in getting started are you interested in watching youtube videos if some of us with at least some experience have some to recommend for beginners? I would have to go back and look since its been a long time since I was watching the truly beginner videos. There are several people I do watch regularly and I'm sure if I go check their back catalog I will find some good starter videos, maybe even the ones I first watched.
Also don't underestimate how strong parts made on a under $500 machine with the least expensive material can be. No question they are not metal but they can be stronger than a lot of the cheap plastic found on most of the stuff we buy these days.
Quote from: 39Flathead on May 21, 2020, 11:13:18 AM
Doubt it. Shipping is cheap and many of the more advanced printers have very complex environmental requirements. Makes more sense to operate large print farms and spend the $10 shipping a part.
Please note there are Cadillac renovators all over the world, even here in Finland. Shipping from US is not that cheap and takes time. We have several 3D printing houses available, all we need is the 3D model library for rare spare parts. I would pay for a 3D model and get it produced locally.
Quote from: Ralph Messina CLC 4937 on May 21, 2020, 08:01:03 PM
39Flathead
Thanks for your explanation. Very helpful and easily understood.
Ralph, I'm in the same boat! Anyway, I still prefer to continue my scale models without that technology!
I can make a model of just about anything with the proper information or sample. If someone needs some help going from paper to a model, send me a message and I can take a look.
Quote from: Matti R on May 22, 2020, 02:14:58 AM
Please note there are Cadillac renovators all over the world, even here in Finland. Shipping from US is not that cheap and takes time. We have several 3D printing houses available, all we need is the 3D model library for rare spare parts. I would pay for a 3D model and get it produced locally.
Sure but that would mean having a print lab setup in Finland of which I am sure there are many. You wouldn't drive around a truck with a printer in it.
For example, I was planning on doing a twin turbo EFI build with my 346. I modeled these flanges from the gasket. Cost me maybe $20 to model it up and $20 to print a few prototypes to get my spacing correct.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on May 21, 2020, 08:47:20 PM
If you have a non computerized design I think there are services that will take it from there and get you the part in the material of your choice especially if you have a 'professional' detailed proper paper drawing. Stained napkin may be take a little more. How professional and the type of material is where the cost varies.
I think you can find a person online that may help for a 6 pack and maybe even print out a plastic sample on a hobby printer to make sure the design is good. If you then have what you think is the part you want and some digital files for said part you are in a much better position to get a professional or semi pro company to make you a part for what most would consider a reasonable cost.
For the hinge concept the way I would see that is the napkin drawing goes to the beer guy who makes a cheap plastic sample on his hobby printer then gives you the digital files. You send those files to a machine shop who then instead of feeding the original file into the slicer for the hobby printer puts them into the software for their CNC mill. In either the case of the CNC mill or some sort of 3d print that place could be anywhere in the world which is why just about anything is possible at a wide range of prices.
Agreed. Would be happy to contribute to the forum with design help or printing help.
So who has a disappearing Cadillac part that we can demo a printed part on?
We could take a shot at a 4100 engine and see if we can do any better than they did?
Who was asking about the glove box hinges? Getting some more details on that part may be worth exploring to see if that would be a printed or machined part.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on May 26, 2020, 02:22:38 PM
We could take a shot at a 4100 engine and see if we can do any better than they did?
Who was asking about the glove box hinges? Getting some more details on that part may be worth exploring to see if that would be a printed or machined part.
I'll be honest this is my first Cadillac flathead and I only have the engine so I'm not familiar with any of these parts. But if someone has a picture and is willing to pull some dimensions we can try some parts out. I make hinges all the time so I think it would be a fairly simple design.
Quote from: 39Flathead on May 26, 2020, 02:13:27 PM
So who has a disappearing Cadillac part that we can demo a printed part on?
I have been modeling the body fillers on my '74 Eldorado. I have had many of them printed in nylon with good success so far. There are other part also like the power antenna bezel (metal) and the retainer (plastic)
Well I'm open to any part. Anybody want to offer up a part to work on?
Well hey if anyone is looking to create a supply of some of the challenging to find parts feel free to PM me. Would be happy to get it into CAD and print off a few runs for free.
Otherwise I'll let this thread go back into hibernation.
Off the top of my head, I can think of three pieces that would be 3D-printing challenges for different reasons.
1. The turn-signal mechanism that always breaks, particularly in tilt-telescoping setups. Instead of simply copying an original piece, this would be an opportunity to engineer and print a more robust piece that would last "forever."
2. The pieces that constitute the transmission kick-down switch on 1967 QJs. Along with potential re-engineering, this would be a test of materials used: that area gets hot, hot, hot!
3. The vacuum-control valve that fits on the back of a standard GM headlight switch to control the headlight-door vacuum servos. Again, this wouldn't have to be a faithful copy. As long as it fits the normal switch that all of GM used, it would work. If this product didn't specify some non-printed, easily found pieces (e.g. o-rings for vacuum seals), this would be a true test of printing tolerances.
Quote from: 67_Eldo on May 28, 2020, 06:05:10 PM
Off the top of my head, I can think of three pieces that would be 3D-printing challenges for different reasons.
1. The turn-signal mechanism that always breaks, particularly in tilt-telescoping setups. Instead of simply copying an original piece, this would be an opportunity to engineer and print a more robust piece that would last "forever."
2. The pieces that constitute the transmission kick-down switch on 1967 QJs. Along with potential re-engineering, this would be a test of materials used: that area gets hot, hot, hot!
3. The vacuum-control valve that fits on the back of a standard GM headlight switch to control the headlight-door vacuum servos. Again, this wouldn't have to be a faithful copy. As long as it fits the normal switch that all of GM used, it would work. If this product didn't specify some non-printed, easily found pieces (e.g. o-rings for vacuum seals), this would be a true test of printing tolerances.
Feel like offering up pictures and providing measurements?
Quote from: 67_Eldo on May 28, 2020, 06:05:10 PM
Off the top of my head, I can think of three pieces that would be 3D-printing challenges for different reasons.
1. The turn-signal mechanism that always breaks, particularly in tilt-telescoping setups. Instead of simply copying an original piece, this would be an opportunity to engineer and print a more robust piece that would last "forever."
2. The pieces that constitute the transmission kick-down switch on 1967 QJs. Along with potential re-engineering, this would be a test of materials used: that area gets hot, hot, hot!
3. The vacuum-control valve that fits on the back of a standard GM headlight switch to control the headlight-door vacuum servos. Again, this wouldn't have to be a faithful copy. As long as it fits the normal switch that all of GM used, it would work. If this product didn't specify some non-printed, easily found pieces (e.g. o-rings for vacuum seals), this would be a true test of printing tolerances.
Those are all great applications for 3D printing.
Quote from: 39Flathead on May 28, 2020, 06:13:07 PM
Feel like offering up pictures and providing measurements?
Nope. :-) I've already addressed them in other, non-3D-printed ways on my car.
But for others who want to repair their vehicles with pieces that are closer to stock than my definitely non-stock approaches, I think there would be some demand.
I wanted to throw these out there to inspire others to come up with other ideas that aren't 1967-Eldorado centric.
Who can create the CAD files for the parts? I have been chatting with 39Flathead and he is willing to try to make the parts but needs to have the CAD files created for him. I am looking to have the filler panels between the front and rear doors on a 4 door made and he feels he can do it with the best material to help them survive better than the original ones have.
I am willing to ship my parts to someone if they need to scan the part.
Quote from: Highwayman68 on June 16, 2020, 11:22:38 AM
Who can create the CAD files for the parts? I have been chatting with 39Flathead and he is willing to try to make the parts but needs to have the CAD files created for him. I am looking to have the filler panels between the front and rear doors on a 4 door made and he feels he can do it with the best material to help them survive better than the original ones have.
I am willing to ship my parts to someone if they need to scan the part.
To be clear, a part with any compound curves is something that is going to be tricky to remodel. 3D scanning would be a typical method but would need something like Geomagics to convert it into CAD. I'm sure I could approximate it but not sure if that is sufficient. I work in Solidworks and Creo so any file type would work. Worst comes to worst I can model it myself it would just be easier to find someone who specializes in creating models from pictures.
I can create a model from a sample part.
This is a fascinating thread - and, I think, important to all of us who own old cars.
I am naive with respect to the capabilities of 3D printing. I would think one good application would be making molds for casting specialty parts. For example, years ago, I paid to have some door handles cast in stainless steel, to replace one that I had broken. The replacement door handle was beautiful, but smaller than the original. This was because the original was used to make a mold, and there was some shrinkage when the casting was made.
I would think that it would be easy to make a CAD model of the door handle, correct the model for possible shrinkage, make a mold using the 3D printer, do the casting, and end up with an almost exact replica of the original part. True? (I’m assuming that one cannot directly print the stainless steel part.)
There is an interesting thread on the AACA site: https://forums.aaca.org/topic/316541-1931-cadillac-parts-for-sale-at-hershey/ that discusses carburetors for a 1931 V12 or V16 Cadillac. The carbs were made by Johnson carburetors out of pot metal, and the pot metal fails with time. Later year Cadillacs had a better carb made by Detroit Lubricator. Apparently, one should expect to pay $5000 to $10000 for one of those. I would think 3D printing would be ideal for making high quality replacement Johnson carburetors - in brass or bronze, rather than pot metal - and making high quality replacement Detroit Lubricator carburetors at a lower price. Is that reasonable?
Phil
Quote from: pmhowe on June 19, 2020, 09:53:45 AM
This is a fascinating thread - and, I think, important to all of us who own old cars.
I am naive with respect to the capabilities of 3D printing. I would think one good application would be making molds for casting specialty parts. For example, years ago, I paid to have some door handles cast in stainless steel, to replace one that I had broken. The replacement door handle was beautiful, but smaller than the original. This was because the original was used to make a mold, and there was some shrinkage when the casting was made.
I would think that it would be easy to make a CAD model of the door handle, correct the model for possible shrinkage, make a mold using the 3D printer, do the casting, and end up with an almost exact replica of the original part. True? (I’m assuming that one cannot directly print the stainless steel part.)
There is an interesting thread on the AACA site: https://forums.aaca.org/topic/316541-1931-cadillac-parts-for-sale-at-hershey/ that discusses carburetors for a 1931 V12 or V16 Cadillac. The carbs were made by Johnson carburetors out of pot metal, and the pot metal fails with time. Later year Cadillacs had a better carb made by Detroit Lubricator. Apparently, one should expect to pay $5000 to $10000 for one of those. I would think 3D printing would be ideal for making high quality replacement Johnson carburetors - in brass or bronze, rather than pot metal - and making high quality replacement Detroit Lubricator carburetors at a lower price. Is that reasonable?
Phil
We can directly print in 17-4 stainless, 316 stainless, and likely several other SST grades. I currently have 17-4 and pure copper loaded into the printer. It's also possible to run Titanium, aluminum, brass, and several others. Would likely be much easier than making a cast mold.
Yes, absolutely possible. Visited another facility yesterday that supports aerospace and checked out all the titanium and inconel prints supporting the new space launches.
They can and do 3d print orbital rocket engines so I'm sure a material for a door handle would not be an issue. Cost maybe an issue because you are not printing metal on a $500 hobby printer with a $20 spool of material from the hobby store. 39 will maybe be able to give us some clues as to what a ballpark cost may be for a couple smaller items like door handles would be assuming you had a 'good' digital design ready to print.
Its been a long time since I did castings but I don't see any reason why you couldn't design and print parts on a hobby printer to use to make molds. If you knew what sort of shrinkage to expect you could easily scale the part in the computer. You can also easily split the part and design locating pins and such if it needs to be a 2 part casting. Back when I was doing it you had to make the part out of wood or clay then try and cut it in half then ad the pins. It was quite the process that required a lot of skills on a lot of levels.
As far as designing the part in the computer parts that have fairly clear geometric shapes are not that hard to do. That is straight lines, squares, angles, curves that you can identify as a radius. I'm not saying I can do it well but for someone that knows what they are doing its not really a big deal. Where it gets tricky is if the part you want is more of an organic shape then it becomes more of a sculpting project which even in a computer requires some artist like skills. The software is out there it just takes the skills to use it. The printers have no problem printing organic shapes its just they are difficult to design because you can't really easily measure them.
Once you have design you can print the part using a hobby printer and materials just to check your design and how it fits. You still do have to take into account shrinkage but I would assume that is where the pro's experience at the shop that would do your final would come in. I assume you would tell them that you did a test fit with PLA and it was perfect so they would then use their experience to know how or if they needed to scale the thing to accommodate shrinkage or expansion in the final material.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on June 19, 2020, 11:37:41 AM
They can and do 3d print orbital rocket engines so I'm sure a material for a door handle would not be an issue. Cost maybe an issue because you are not printing metal on a $500 hobby printer with a $20 spool of material from the hobby store. 39 will maybe be able to give us some clues as to what a ballpark cost may be for a couple smaller items like door handles would be assuming you had a 'good' digital design ready to print.
Its been a long time since I did castings but I don't see any reason why you couldn't design and print parts on a hobby printer to use to make molds. If you knew what sort of shrinkage to expect you could easily scale the part in the computer. You can also easily split the part and design locating pins and such if it needs to be a 2 part casting. Back when I was doing it you had to make the part out of wood or clay then try and cut it in half then ad the pins. It was quite the process that required a lot of skills on a lot of levels.
As far as designing the part in the computer parts that have fairly clear geometric shapes are not that hard to do. That is straight lines, squares, angles, curves that you can identify as a radius. I'm not saying I can do it well but for someone that knows what they are doing its not really a big deal. Where it gets tricky is if the part you want is more of an organic shape then it becomes more of a sculpting project which even in a computer requires some artist like skills. The software is out there it just takes the skills to use it. The printers have no problem printing organic shapes its just they are difficult to design because you can't really easily measure them.
Once you have design you can print the part using a hobby printer and materials just to check your design and how it fits. You still do have to take into account shrinkage but I would assume that is where the pro's experience at the shop that would do your final would come in. I assume you would tell them that you did a test fit with PLA and it was perfect so they would then use their experience to know how or if they needed to scale the thing to accommodate shrinkage or expansion in the final material.
If you had a file for a handle ready to print, material wise I would estimate the part to cost $20-30 on a DMLS machine. Unfortunately the hang up is that most people who own a DMLS machine do high end prototype work so I'd imagine that costing $500+ per at retail.
For compound curves as you were saying we would typically use a 3D scanner to recreate the part.
Agreed. We would typically test print with MJF or SLA to check fit before anything metal would be made.
Just to highlight some of the types of projects I work on, here is a heat sink after going through topology optimization. Basically you design a rough idea of your part, decide what all the loads are on it (thermal, physical, electrical) and then the computer designs the optimal shape. Obviously this forces the part to be printed since it can't be machined to this form. This part will be printed in pure copper at less cost and time than a conventional, lesser performing, part would have cost to machine. This is how the bulk of parts used in advanced space or medical R&D will be designed.
(this is not the part I'm working on in particular, I can't share that. But here is a google approximation)
Here is an example of a part that is a bit more "Cadillac focused". It's the tail light filler for the '74-'76 Eldorado. I have been working on this model for a little while and I have it just about right. This is my first full prototype for actual test fitting on the car. It's printed out of cheap PLA material for test fitting.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_7927.JPG&hash=820a31794d86b35654fb01f1a6d4c7ae7860e53f)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_7928.JPG&hash=7393683708da0cd48f7a519be0ba4c80a103eec1)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_7933.JPG&hash=d295c5998c5883076ba22d7959fe0abf9beb1e40)
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjelloslug.com%2Fcaddy%2FIMG_7934.JPG&hash=1492e685a65562da61398ccca9cae9c0e207b919)
Do you have a picture of that part before removing supports? I'm sure that may help some people understand how the printing process works.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on June 19, 2020, 07:45:09 PM
Do you have a picture of that part before removing supports? I'm sure that may help some people understand how the printing process works.
No, but I'm going to print another prototype very soon with some changes and I'll takes some pics of it in the machine and before I remove the supports.
Here's a housing for an air purifier that I just printed. Designed this in maybe 15 minutes and then around 6 hours of print time. This is pretty much how it came out of the printer minus a few minutes blowing powder off.
This printer setup is around ~$700k.
Quote from: 39Flathead on June 26, 2020, 12:34:58 PM
Here's a housing for an air purifier that I just printed. Designed this in maybe 15 minutes and then around 6 hours of print time. This is pretty much how it came out of the printer minus a few minutes blowing powder off.
This printer setup is around ~$700k.
Nice! What are the overall dims of the part?
Quote from: MaR on June 26, 2020, 01:40:37 PM
Nice! What are the overall dims of the part?
This one is around 7"x14"
Thanks for sharing
At first I just saw the $700 and was looking at the photo trying to figure out what sort of material would possibly cause dust, strings yes but dust? Then I went back and looked closer and saw it was $700 K. Ahh..... thats different.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on June 27, 2020, 11:12:31 AM
At first I just saw the $700 and was looking at the photo trying to figure out what sort of material would possibly cause dust, strings yes but dust? Then I went back and looked closer and saw it was $700 K. Ahh..... thats different.
I'll post a few pics of the metal parts I have. They came from a $2.25M printer.
My panel is now in Richard's hands to create the file for it, baby steps but this is fun.
Quote from: Highwayman68 on June 27, 2020, 05:57:58 PM
My panel is now in Richard's hands to create the file for it, baby steps but this is fun.
Who is Richard? ;D
Quote from: MaR on June 28, 2020, 11:17:19 AM
Who is Richard? ;D
OPPS LOL My bad Mitchell :o
Here are some printed metal pictures. First one is Titanium, second two are AlSi10Mg aluminum alloy.
I have been avoiding reading this thread for a while, but just read through it all. Very interesting topic and I appreciate the candor of all parties.
I also appreciate the willingness of folks to work together to resolve parts issues.
I don’t have any input other than expressing my thanks for bringing old school vehicle parts into the modern world.
One bit of commentary that I would add is that I am reminded of the days before personal computers were common and the physicists and engineers (slide rule types) I worked with were faced with the same issue of modeling. Software was generally unavailable (pre-Jobs and Gates) and they would stay up all night and hand me gigo data from software that they wrote themselves that I had to turn into reality.
Now they being the ants, I was the grasshopper and was out drinking beer, playing pool, chasing women and riding my old Panhead while they slaved away writing their programs for their TRS-80s using old portable black and white TVs for monitors and cassette tape decks for memory.
Ah the good old days. I would then throw their printouts in the garbage and run the machines the old fashioned way (before CNC) and they were none the wiser because it came out right. (It would not have if I did it their way. I know this because I did it their way and got tired of backtracking and doing it old school)
The reason I say this is that the parallels are very apparent and the future world will change, but not because of the current state of these processes, but because someone will come along and mass produce a personal level of this technology.
Sort of a George Jetson or Star Trek or even a Homer Simpson unit that you stick the thing in the chamber and it spits out a duplicate.
Until then, have fun gents, been there done that. It was fun to watch.
Quote from: wrench on July 02, 2020, 07:18:48 PM
I have been avoiding reading this thread for a while, but just read through it all. Very interesting topic and I appreciate the candor of all parties.
I also appreciate the willingness of folks to work together to resolve parts issues.
I don’t have any input other than expressing my thanks for bringing old school vehicle parts into the modern world.
One bit of commentary that I would add is that I am reminded of the days before personal computers were common and the physicists and engineers (slide rule types) I worked with were faced with the same issue of modeling. Software was generally unavailable (pre-Jobs and Gates) and they would stay up all night and hand me gigo data from software that they wrote themselves that I had to turn into reality.
Now they being the ants, I was the grasshopper and was out drinking beer, playing pool, chasing women and riding my old Panhead while they slaved away writing their programs for their TRS-80s using old portable black and white TVs for monitors and cassette tape decks for memory.
Ah the good old days. I would then throw their printouts in the garbage and run the machines the old fashioned way (before CNC) and they were none the wiser because it came out right. (It would not have if I did it their way. I know this because I did it their way and got tired of backtracking and doing it old school)
The reason I say this is that the parallels are very apparent and the future world will change, but not because of the current state of these processes, but because someone will come along and mass produce a personal level of this technology.
Sort of a George Jetson or Star Trek or even a Homer Simpson unit that you stick the thing in the chamber and it spits out a duplicate.
Until then, have fun gents, been there done that. It was fun to watch.
We're past that point. Anyone can spend a few hundred bucks on a small printer for their house and have access to libraries of thousands of parts to print. I've printed 17-4PH stainless steel on a $300 printer you'd find in a middle school classroom. In all the work I do with machine shops this is absolutely a fundamental shift in how parts are produced.
How about battery 'toppers'. Seems like something that would not be that difficult to design and things like caps could be a different part that snaps in so easy to make a different color. Since these may not be 100% accurate reproductions it would be fairly easy to have an open design where you could just shift the exact location of where the terminals had to be to accommodate the slight differences in the different brand batteries. That's not an easy task with injection molding because you have to make a new mold but with 3d printing no problem.
Fender and trunk letters sure would be nice.
The high end printing guys will have to tell us if there is a material that can be polished like chrome.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on July 13, 2020, 11:22:24 PM
The high end printing guys will have to tell us if there is a material that can be polished like chrome.
Cheapest solution would be nickel plated SLA or MJF which is what private jet manufacturers use to replicate chrome in the cabin. Or print in aluminum and polish it. Or just chrome paint over plastic. Many paths depending on the budget.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on July 13, 2020, 11:22:24 PM
The high end printing guys will have to tell us if there is a material that can be polished like chrome.
Like flathead said, you can just print in metal and go the standard routes or print in plastic and have it chromed.
What would be the best way to go about designing something like say a Fleetwood script? Would that be something where scanning would work well? Is there software that could take a photo if it had good contrast and at least get you a 2d model to start with?
Quote from: TJ Hopland on July 14, 2020, 11:44:42 PM
What would be the best way to go about designing something like say a Fleetwood script? Would that be something where scanning would work well? Is there software that could take a photo if it had good contrast and at least get you a 2d model to start with?
Scanning would be possible if you had a perfect sample. Any defect that is in the part would come over with the scan. It would be possible to correct any defects but most of the time, correcting the defective model take more time than just modeling it from scratch. When I make a model, I do it the "old fashion way" and measure the part. This gives me complete control over all the geometry. 3D printing a part is relativity easy, generating the model to send to the 3D printer is the hard part.
I get that starting from scratch would be easier on a fairly geometric part but something more organic like many of the 'fonts' they used seems like it would be very difficult to model. I can see being able to measure a few reference points but then how do you connect them with a flowing curve? Or is that where something like Blender comes in? You fix the points you measured and create a line between them then it lets you manipulate that line in a more organic way?
I have only played a little with Fusion 360 but I know Blender is popular with people that do figures so there must be a fairly easy way to do non geometric stuff.
Blender is typically used for artistic models. I use Solidworks because what I use day to day for my engineering work. Either piece of software will work fine for generating something that can be printed though. With out going into huge detail, for a script emblem I would plot a few points and then connect the dots with splines. With a bit of intuition on how the part was likely designed in the first place, it usually turns out to be a fairly simple task. The more complex parts (like the hinge pillar cover that I'm working on right now) can take more effort simply because there are not many reference points that you can start with for determining the curves.
Anyone finish up any models for a Cadillac?
I'm still patently waiting for feedback on the part I provided as a test piece.
Quote from: Highwayman68 on September 03, 2020, 09:29:57 PM
I'm still patently waiting for feedback on the part I provided as a test piece.
Sorry, I just have not had a ton of time to work on that part.
Am looking for someone to 3D print the old nylon Cruise piece into a harder plastic.
Quote from: arch62 on November 19, 2020, 11:53:08 PM
Am looking for someone to 3D print the old nylon Cruise piece into a harder plastic.
I had the gear made with a laser cutter. It has worked fine although these is better material out there now to work with than what was available then. He had said that he didn't think a 3D printed part would hold the tension needed on the spline as it is pressed fit on there.
P.S. I am still patently waiting for the cover between the doors to be made into a printable file...
For those that have had parts printed in metal assuming you had a proven design what do you think doing this ignition rack would cost? The later 70's version pictured here is only a $20 part widely available. The slightly different early 70's version must be made on a much smaller scale and sells for $75. I was just wondering if maybe it was a 3d print or if this would be a good use case for a metal 3d print?
I would guess the originals were die cast and if you were going to mass produce them today a sintered metal process would be the way to go. I don't think it would be worth trying to do on a CNC machine because it would either take several resets and tool changes or a stupidly expensive fancy machine that would be better used making more valuable pieces.
(https://www.rockauto.com/info/42/83211-007__ra_p.jpg)
Quote from: MaR on September 04, 2020, 02:57:46 PM
Sorry, I just have not had a ton of time to work on that part.
Hey Mitchell any progress on this? I know you had a lot of activity on your 74 Eldorado going on lately.
Quote from: Highwayman68 on September 27, 2021, 12:48:57 PM
Hey Mitchell any progress on this? I know you had a lot of activity on your 74 Eldorado going on lately.
I was holding out until I could get a 3D scanner since your part basically has no straight or flat surfaces but I don't see me getting one soon.
I haven't really printed much all summer and for sure haven't designed anything. I also have not really been following the DIY scene very closely. I have seen some lower cost scanner options but am guessing none of them are that great otherwise every 3d printing youtuber would have one and be talking about em and they are not, just a random video here and there.
I looked online and found a few 3D scanning companies in the area, one even states they deal with parts for old cars, so once I get the panel back I am going to check with them to see if they can do it and how much it will be. Once I have the file then the next step is to see if the panels can be made on a 3D printer.
I send all my parts sent out to have scanned and made into printable files for my business. I've been doing this since 2012 for tons of old Cadillac parts. First part I had scanned and printed in mass was the 65-66 climate control grille on the dashpad. Other parts I've had 3D modeled from scratch by a local guy till he retired from doing it. He helped with the easier shaped parts like 69-70 map light grilles, 59-75 power window motor connectors. All my recent parts are scanned and now are either 3D printed if it's something that sells on a limited basis (less than 50 a year) or I have injection molds made for items that would sell in quantity like 79-85 seat transmission housings or the 63-68 and 69-85 rear courtesy light lenses. I have to say, after seeing how it's all done now (modeled on computers, molds cnc machine, 3D printed parts) it really make me wonder how they did what they did 50+ years ago without the tech and all manually and still achieved fairly tight results.
Quote from: Highwayman68 on September 30, 2021, 12:54:20 PM
I looked online and found a few 3D scanning companies in the area, one even states they deal with parts for old cars, so once I get the panel back I am going to check with them to see if they can do it and how much it will be. Once I have the file then the next step is to see if the panels can be made on a 3D printer.
I've already had files made for the door jamb panels. If you were to send them out to a printer service like Shapeways, they are approximately $537 each to have printed. So unless you want to spend that much, plus the cost to have the panel scanned into a printable file, I'd save the time and effort.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on March 08, 2021, 10:36:45 AM
For those that have had parts printed in metal assuming you had a proven design what do you think doing this ignition rack would cost? The later 70's version pictured here is only a $20 part widely available. The slightly different early 70's version must be made on a much smaller scale and sells for $75. I was just wondering if maybe it was a 3d print or if this would be a good use case for a metal 3d print?
I would guess the originals were die cast and if you were going to mass produce them today a sintered metal process would be the way to go. I don't think it would be worth trying to do on a CNC machine because it would either take several resets and tool changes or a stupidly expensive fancy machine that would be better used making more valuable pieces.
(https://www.rockauto.com/info/42/83211-007__ra_p.jpg)
Resurrecting but since this has always been a slow thread I figure it's ok.
Bottom line no this would not be a less than $75 part. Even on the lowest of low end metal printers like the Metal X you would still be charged several hundred dollars. Now if you wanted to do a run of several hundred maybe you could drive the price down but I doubt that far. Problem is, real metal printers are around $500k base and run materials beyond the properties you'd need. You might just need a regular low carbon steel but they'll be running tool steel, 316L, or Ti64 primarily.
Depending on the loads on it though, they are several very high performance polymers that could take that job without complaint at a much lower price point.
Quote from: John Abend on October 11, 2021, 03:06:51 PM
I've already had files made for the door jamb panels. If you were to send them out to a printer service like Shapeways, they are approximately $537 each to have printed. So unless you want to spend that much, plus the cost to have the panel scanned into a printable file, I'd save the time and effort.
Can you post a screenshot of the model and rough size? Pretty sure I could bring that price down dramatically. I've paid less than that for printed titanium.
If you're not trying to correct a design flaw, correct a part fit issue with an aftermarket part, or attempting to create a part which is simply not available it doesn't seem like it's worth the effort it would take to reproduce a $75 part. I'm so accustom to working on cars which nobody makes a replacement part for that I would do back flips if I was able to locate a high quality, likely rarely needed as a replacement, part for $75.
If you have a 3D model which is close to the same overall max dimensions and print volume you could easily get an estimate on Shapeways in seconds. You could weigh it and calculate the volume knowing the approximate density of the original material. Then just make a simple shape with roughly the same envelope size and volume. That would give you a quick and dirty idea if you're curious. Water displacement method for volume would work as well if you have a large enough graduated container which it would fit inside. I suspect a professional 3D printing company will be close to the same price in a high performance polymer.
If you need to do the modeling work yourself there's a significant investment of your time and if a shape is very complicated to model you may not get it right the first time. Even if the 3D scan wasn't perfect it can be a great tool to compare your modeled geometry against. I would love to find someone like John Abend mentioned who would be willing to do some modeling. It's not just modeling though you need to accurately measure everything which always includes some difficult areas to measure; back to what I think Mitchell was referring to "since your part basically has no straight or flat surfaces" and lack of a 3D scanner.
Scott
Quote from: 79 Eldorado on February 18, 2022, 11:10:52 PM
If you're not trying to correct a design flaw, correct a part fit issue with an aftermarket part, or attempting to create a part which is simply not available it doesn't seem like it's worth the effort it would take to reproduce a $75 part. I'm so accustom to working on cars which nobody makes a replacement part for that I would do back flips if I was able to locate a high quality, likely rarely needed as a replacement, part for $75.
If you have a 3D model which is close to the same overall max dimensions and print volume you could easily get an estimate on Shapeways in seconds. You could weigh it and calculate the volume knowing the approximate density of the original material. Then just make a simple shape with roughly the same envelope size and volume. That would give you a quick and dirty idea if you're curious. Water displacement method for volume would work as well if you have a large enough graduated container which it would fit inside. I suspect a professional 3D printing company will be close to the same price in a high performance polymer.
If you need to do the modeling work yourself there's a significant investment of your time and if a shape is very complicated to model you may not get it right the first time. Even if the 3D scan wasn't perfect it can be a great tool to compare your modeled geometry against. I would love to find someone like John Abend mentioned who would be willing to do some modeling. It's not just modeling though you need to accurately measure everything which always includes some difficult areas to measure; back to what I think Mitchell was referring to "since your part basically has no straight or flat surfaces" and lack of a 3D scanner.
Scott
Agreed, it has to be a worthy part. But a high performance polymer can be printed on a printer as cheap as $2500, far from the $500K - $3M price tag for a metals equivalent. Bottom line don't assume it HAS to be metal...there are many high performance polymers rated for use in medical, aerospace, automotive, etc. in structural applications. For example, I frequently need very stiff parts for optical assemblies etc. The second stiffest printable material is a pretty low cost polymer on a fairly low cost printer. The stiffest would be titanium at 200x the cost. You never know what's out there!
Side note your volume approach works in some scenarios but most print methods would try to utilize shelling, optimization, or infill which would result in drastically less material.
For a compound curve a 3D scanner is the easiest solution. For challenging parts with high tolerance I've found mobile CMM companies that can bring a CMM to my parts and give me point to point or profile dimensions down to +/-0.0001" accuracy.
Also, not familiar with Shapeways but Hubs is a simple go-to for most additive parts. If there are any questions about different additive methods just feel free to PM me.
-5 years as lead additive engineer for a global corporation, now senior engineer for a company developing additive technologies for US military contracts.
** Late edit. Another trick is to take pictures of the part orthogonal to the part on each side. Provide the pictures to a contract drafter, I use UpWork for access to affordable CAD, and provide a few key measurements with a caliper. They can pull the picture into CAD, trace over it, create the part, and scale it using the precise measurements you provide. Then you have your starting point to iterate to a final part.
TJ,
No argument some parts originally made in metal would be fine in high performance plastic.
My volume approach was basically to avoid the time of creating any complicated geometry to get a rough idea. Some of the people asking about parts have likely never 3D modeled, nor 3D scanned and have not 3D printed themselves.
One thing to note is a lot of Libraries at least have FDM printers and will let you use them if you take their training course. A person does need to realize though a short print time part on a FDM printer will still likely take 1 to 2 hours, normally closer to 4-6, and I've printed some with a lot of layers which would have fit on a small Library printer but took around 24 hours to print (even set-up with almost no supports needed). Material will likely be limited to PLA at a Library. That can be fine for some parts and it's perfectly fine for test fit parts if you are not fortunate enough to have a 3D scanner to capture the original.
I think people who are not experienced yet need to realize it's not quite as easy or instantaneous as printing a photo on a laser printer.
Scott
Great read and thread! I was just thinking of this last night and happened upon this today. We have the same car too! Happy printing🍻.
- M. Crudo
I have been reading the thread. Is there a place that specializes in small parts? You send them the part and they duplicated it in something that could be chromed?
Quote from: jp1gt on May 15, 2022, 10:04:44 AM
I have been reading the thread. Is there a place that specializes in small parts? You send them the part and they duplicated it in something that could be chromed?
Something small could either be MJF printed and then a) ceramic coated in something resembling chrome or b) nickel plated and polished which leaves a thin deposition of metal on the surface, making it a surprisingly strong superstructure. Or metal printed in aluminum or stainless, surface treated, and chromed.
I think what he was asking is does anyone know of a service where you can send in a broken or damaged part and get back a new part? I would imagine there is but I don't think most people would consider it practical cost wise. People with the skills to do the scanning then digital repairing to create the digital plans for a new part don't come cheap. You would then have to pay to have an inexpensive part made to test fit before moving on to the expensive part. I'm sure things are improving and becoming easier therefore cheaper but I don't think that end is there yet.
What we are mostly talking about here is that we are for the most part fumbling our way through the design stages ourselves then printing a plastic part on the sub $500 diy printers to test fit and verify our design. Its then if the part needs to be a more durable material that the digital design is sent off to a service that can print in in basically any material you an afford. They are printing rocket engines so its no longer a question of is there a material strong enough its just back to can you afford it. Printing rocket engines likely pays better than a window crank handle for an old car.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on May 16, 2022, 11:45:54 AM
I think what he was asking is does anyone know of a service where you can send in a broken or damaged part and get back a new part? I would imagine there is but I don't think most people would consider it practical cost wise. People with the skills to do the scanning then digital repairing to create the digital plans for a new part don't come cheap. You would then have to pay to have an inexpensive part made to test fit before moving on to the expensive part. I'm sure things are improving and becoming easier therefore cheaper but I don't think that end is there yet.
What we are mostly talking about here is that we are for the most part fumbling our way through the design stages ourselves then printing a plastic part on the sub $500 diy printers to test fit and verify our design. Its then if the part needs to be a more durable material that the digital design is sent off to a service that can print in in basically any material you an afford. They are printing rocket engines so its no longer a question of is there a material strong enough its just back to can you afford it. Printing rocket engines likely pays better than a window crank handle for an old car.
I think the first step would be to start building a catalog of existing components that can either be machined or printed new. For example the brass/bronze? synchros in the LaSalle 3 speed? Easy to machine but I don't have a drawing. If people have their hands on hard to replace items we could start pulling measurements using calipers and pictures, and creating CAD models and drawings. Once there's a database of these parts people could replace their broken parts as needed. Hey my whatever broke, download file from Cadillac database, send over to print shop with surface finish requirements already on the drawing, get back your finalized part.
What I mean is to give the company/hobbyist a perfect part and duplicate it. Even chrome plate it. From what I see is that you scan the part and then reproduce it. Trying to get away from companies that make parts for aerospace and not in a real hurry. I see people that have small chrome shops, this would be perfect for the same thing.
Quote from: jp1gt on May 16, 2022, 03:32:43 PM
What I mean is to give the company/hobbyist a perfect part and duplicate it. Even chrome plate it. From what I see is that you scan the part and then reproduce it. Trying to get away from companies that make parts for aerospace and not in a real hurry. I see people that have small chrome shops, this would be perfect for the same thing.
The first step is to start creating models. Simple parts with machined geometries should be able to be modeled into CAD. Complex components with compound curves would need to be scanned or CMM'd to get accurate profiles, then produced in CAD.
Once we have parts that have models or drawings depending on the production method, anyone can submit these models to any print shop with the necessary post-processing equipment and get the end use replacement part ready to be mounted to the car.
A. LaVelle,
You're missing an important part of the procedure TJ mentioned which is test fitting. If you had a complete catalog of every part on you car but nothing had been verified, and for functional parts, tested you would have the equivalent of a minefield. You wouldn't really know what parts in the catalog could be trusted. Even without testing it would be great to have accurate geometry for many parts but you would still need to figure out a way to rate how accurate the geometry is. Sometimes parts break and a design change is even desirable.
A lot of engineering goes into parts. If you reverse engineer or copy it may seem easy but there's still significant work to do. There's an Oldsmobile thermostat housing which was copied by the aftermarket. It looks perfect in the photos but the neck is so far off the part is literally useless. I made the mistake of completely detailing and painting the one I bought for my Eldorado before test fitting. Once I did that I couldn't return it so when I get a chance it will make a beautiful coat hook. There are more and more examples like that which were produced by companies with a lot of money but didn't do the work.
I would love to have access to the geometry but any geometry I was interested in I would carefully verify with my own measurements. So the database you're suggested could be helpful but it can also be dangerous because it would enable people who would skip the verification steps. One of the biggest issues with the aftermarket for cars which are well supported is it's difficult to tell the parts which someone did a good job versus parts which someone did not. Do you simply assume the highest price part must be the best? Do some manufacturers stop making parts because there are so many sources available but which may not actually work.
A lot to consider.
Scott
Quote from: 79 Eldorado on May 17, 2022, 09:06:11 PM
A. LaVelle,
You're missing an important part of the procedure TJ mentioned which is test fitting. If you had a complete catalog of every part on you car but nothing had been verified, and for functional parts, tested you would have the equivalent of a minefield. You wouldn't really know what parts in the catalog could be trusted. Even without testing it would be great to have accurate geometry for many parts but you would still need to figure out a way to rate how accurate the geometry is. Sometimes parts break and a design change is even desirable.
A lot of engineering goes into parts. If you reverse engineer or copy it may seem easy but there's still significant work to do. There's an Oldsmobile thermostat housing which was copied by the aftermarket. It looks perfect in the photos but the neck is so far off the part is literally useless. I made the mistake of completely detailing and painting the one I bought for my Eldorado before test fitting. Once I did that I couldn't return it so when I get a chance it will make a beautiful coat hook. There are more and more examples like that which were produced by companies with a lot of money but didn't do the work.
I would love to have access to the geometry but any geometry I was interested in I would carefully verify with my own measurements. So the database you're suggested could be helpful but it can also be dangerous because it would enable people who would skip the verification steps. One of the biggest issues with the aftermarket for cars which are well supported is it's difficult to tell the parts which someone did a good job versus parts which someone did not. Do you simply assume the highest price part must be the best? Do some manufacturers stop making parts because there are so many sources available but which may not actually work.
A lot to consider.
Scott
I'm very familiar with dimensioning and test fitting...I'm a senior additive manufacturing engineer. I've done this by the thousands of components. I started my career in the automotive industry as a chassis engineer and have rebuilt several classics at this point. I've reverse engineered cosmetic and functional parts for 5+ vintage vehicles at this point, including direct printing exhaust manifolds in Inconel 625 as a performance upgrade.
Part of the reverse engineering process is to develop proper tolerances for that component. That's fairly simple to do based on the available additive technologies.
Calipers can probably get you within a couple thou, same with a good 3D scanner. Using a CMM can get you down in the millionths of an inch for accuracy. Then your model is dead on, you just have to choose the correct additive technology to achieve the mechanical properties and dimensional accuracy required, which is why you'd create a drawing to go with the model. The point I'm trying to make is that this effort to build a catalog of replacement parts would be an internal effort, not a company doing it for you. It would rely on the people on this site saying "hey this part is really hard to find, I have one in my hand, maybe I can work with the team here to have it properly measured and recreated into a 3D model!". Once we have a 3D model of it and a good launching point on the tolerance and functionality requirements we can look at what production method is best suited. Can it be a polymer? High temp polymer? High performance polymer? Aluminum? Stainless? A more advanced metal like Titanium? What surface finish does it need? Can it be painted/coated/dipped to achieve that finish? What tolerance does it need, so what printer would it need to be printed on to achieve that spec? All of that info goes into the drawing. For example:
The Ford 226H thermostat housing was challenging to find. No reproductions and very limited NOS supply. Figure a max of 40 psi and 250F? We can look at the HDT value or DMA curve to determine if a given material would survive use. Does it see significant sunlight? If yes we'll need to consider UV degradation and also thermal cycling issues. The part is a flat flange with a vertical to angled neck, fairly simple to redraw in CAD within 5 minutes and you're within +/-0.005 with a set of amazon calipers. Great so we have a model and a performance envelope, people say hey we want that to be metal not plastic. Good call. Ok so we decide the proper material for this would either be an aluminum like AlSi10Mg or maybe even a stainless steel like 316L or 17-4PH. Both are fairly comparable in terms of printed price. The part itself could likely be printed without support but potentially some minor cleanup would be needed depending on user expectations. Now we know the material, the tolerance requirements, and the surface finish so we can choose a specific print technology or printer that meets those requirements. Something like this would probably be best on a DMLS machine but could also be run in binder jet or even metal filament. So from that simple part and a $20 set of calipers we could have a 3D model and a drawing that specifies:
Model
Drawing
Required tolerance
AlSi10Mg/316L
DMLS (EOS 280 or comparable)
Media blasted
No drilling or tapping required
That can be sent to any metal print shop in the world with the machine that matches the drawing and produce it, all without the need to buy it finished from a vintage auto parts vendor.
For more complex print shapes we would just need to iterate a time or two in a polymer like PA12 that mimics the accuracy of a metal machine to dial in the final tolerances, but in the scope of solving a need for a critical component that's a small ask.
I have no skin in this game, I don't own a Cadillac. I do have a military 346 that I'm designing and metal printing an Inconel 625 exhaust manifold for which is why I'm on this forum. I threw out the idea of building a forum catalog of the parts that are getting harder and harder to find, offering to lend some of my expertise on the subject. I'm not here to sell parts as that's not my line of work. But it definitely can't hurt to have the people most focused on the subject working together to keep the rare parts alive, the parts that keep vintage Cadillac's on the road.
@39flathead I love your idea, this is the way forward.
Quote from: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on May 18, 2022, 01:41:35 PM
@39flathead I love your idea, this is the way forward.
Thank you! Have any idea on what good, simple, hard to find part might be a good candidate?
I'd absolutely love if someone could 3D print the rubber boots for the A/C systems on the 54-56 Cadillacs.....
Quote from: 55 CDV Fan 82 on May 18, 2022, 05:21:24 PM
I'd absolutely love if someone could 3D print the rubber boots for the A/C systems on the 54-56 Cadillacs.....
Rubber is tough. Would most likely be FDM printed in a TPU (75A-95A shore hardness) or an SLA material. I'd be concerned with longevity but a test part would be fairly cheap. Do you have a picture with an item for scale?
Without measuring mine I cannot give exact dimensions but these are what they look like. I'm sure there would be a lot of other owners who would want a set of these.
Tim,
It would need to be modeled and I've never priced a part in this material but Sculpteo which is connected with BASF has a photo which shows a material which at least appears similar. Take a look at this link:
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/materials/clip-resin-material/elastomeric-polyurethane-clip-resin-material/
Scott
Quote from: 79 Eldorado on May 18, 2022, 08:13:00 PM
Tim,
It would need to be modeled and I've never priced a part in this material but Sculpteo which is connected with BASF has a photo which shows a material which at least appears similar. Take a look at this link:
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/materials/clip-resin-material/elastomeric-polyurethane-clip-resin-material/
Scott
In my experience, DLP/SLA materials are photopolymers which continue to cure over their lifetime. So while the material out of the printer is very pliable it tends to solidify and become brittle fairly quickly.
For the AC boots the best plan I could recommend would be to prototype dimensions in a 90A TPU/TPE printed on an a large nozzle FDM machine, and then printing the actual units in 88A TPU on the MJF 5210 printer. That will give you a good long term part with no support material and the most professional finish you can hope to expect. That printer is using in many automotive applications and would be your best bed.
Quote from: 55 CDV Fan 82 on May 18, 2022, 07:03:40 PM
Without measuring mine I cannot give exact dimensions but these are what they look like. I'm sure there would be a lot of other owners who would want a set of these.
Would need dimensions of each end and then overall length. That would get us a good starting point.
G'day Al,
You have an email from the Moderators that requires your attention.
Thanks,
Bruce. >:D
Al,
I normally have the same concern about UV cure materials ...curing over a lifetime. In this case though they Sculpteo is making the statement of end-use products. In addition I think the parts Tim is looking for are inside the dash which would be the best case scenario for avoiding UV. I did see the TPU option but the parts created in the link I shared, along with their comments, made me think it might be the better solution. BASF is first a materials company though so they should be able to comment in more detail.
"With the CLIP (DLS) Process, we're able to deliver prototypes and end-use products ranging from very small parts that meet tolerance demands to medium parts with precise patterns. CLIP (DLS) enables product designers and engineers to produce polymeric parts that have the resolution, surface finish and mechanical properties required for both functional prototyping and production parts for industries as varied as automotive, medical and consumer electronics."
This is the other material which is a type of TPU printed using "Jet fusion"
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/materials/jet-fusion-material/tpu01/
If you scroll down they have a part which looks similar in design complexity and function to Tim's part. Here's a capture of that part.
Scott
Quote from: 79 Eldorado on May 19, 2022, 09:34:44 AM
Al,
I normally have the same concern about UV cure materials ...curing over a lifetime. In this case though they Sculpteo is making the statement of end-use products. In addition I think the parts Tim is looking for are inside the dash which would be the best case scenario for avoiding UV. I did see the TPU option but the parts created in the link I shared, along with their comments, made me think it might be the better solution. BASF is first a materials company though so they should be able to comment in more detail.
"With the CLIP (DLS) Process, we're able to deliver prototypes and end-use products ranging from very small parts that meet tolerance demands to medium parts with precise patterns. CLIP (DLS) enables product designers and engineers to produce polymeric parts that have the resolution, surface finish and mechanical properties required for both functional prototyping and production parts for industries as varied as automotive, medical and consumer electronics."
This is the other material which is a type of TPU printed using "Jet fusion"
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/materials/jet-fusion-material/tpu01/
If you scroll down they have a part which looks similar in design complexity and function to Tim's part. Here's a capture of that part.
Scott
Yes "Jet Fusion" is the JF part of MJF printing, that's the TPU I referenced in an earlier post. Just from a production standpoint, MJF is going to be the higher accuracy more production oriented print process which should yield tighter tolerances and lower price points on the finished part compared to CLIP which is more limited in size and availability.
So I'd recommend prototyping on an FDM with a TPU filament, dial in the dimensions and confirm geometry, and then print for end use in an MJF TPU.
I still can not get an answer of how much it would cost to reproduce a small part that you could hold in your hand that would be ready for chrome. this would be instead of doing a lost wax casting. I have a part and want it duplicated.
I got the answer. I think this will be the way of the future as far as small parts--
I am all for crowdfunding to make this happen. In the Kaiser Club, you can pay into the research fund to get a vote on which part is next do a parts run on- 3D printing makes this even easier. The parts are then sold through the club and the funds go do other parts. The parts are discounted for those that pay yearly part research dues. I don't know if people here are in a position to take on the tasks to support and run, but I am willing to put up money to make the parts we need and keep our cars on the road.
It can all be done without money, but funding would be useful.
- Someone or place with 3D scanner or CMM
- Someone or place with 3D printer
- Someone or place with a metal 3D printer
- Someone or people to do the admin work
- Someone or people to build into our website
- A Jedi Council to oversee Part survey, part measurement and requirement, part improvements, budget, part inventory, part backlog
- Cadillac owners and restorers looking for parts
Charles in Dallas (1957, 1978)
Quote from: charles in Dallas on May 30, 2022, 11:14:56 AM
I am all for crowdfunding to make this happen. In the Kaiser Club, you can pay into the research fund to get a vote on which part is next do a parts run on- 3D printing makes this even easier. The parts are then sold through the club and the funds go do other parts. The parts are discounted for those that pay yearly part research dues. I don't know if people here are in a position to take on the tasks to support and run, but I am willing to put up money to make the parts we need and keep our cars on the road.
It can all be done without money, but funding would be useful.
- Someone or place with 3D scanner or CMM
- Someone or place with 3D printer
- Someone or place with a metal 3D printer
- Someone or people to do the admin work
- Someone or people to build into our website
- A Jedi Council to oversee Part survey, part measurement and requirement, part improvements, budget, part inventory, part backlog
- Cadillac owners and restorers looking for parts
Charles in Dallas (1957, 1978)
I have a scanner, calipers, access to a CMM. I have 3D printers in around 40 materials up to 4' x 8' in size. I have relationships with all the leading metal printing companies. I also do this professionally so I think I'm fairly well suited to help out on this one.
Does anyone have a good sample part we can start with? The AC ducts looked simple but I'm open to any suggestions.
I started working on the taillights for the 1979-1985 Eldorados but other projects have taken priority. There's a thread on them on Cadillacforums here:
https://www.cadillacforums.com/threads/1979-to-1985-eldorado-tail-light-lenses.1109907/
Phillip aka "BigBird" had a disaster scenario. I made some progress but my model could use some refining and I thought about redesigning the interface between the clear part and the part where the bulbs turn-into ("grey part").
My thought was the grey part would be printed. A master would be made for the clear-red part using 3D printing and finishing. A mold would be made from the master and then the clear part would be poured/molded. There is prism/diamond like material inside but I think I found a source for that. My thought was a piece could be water jet cut and the clear-red part could have geometry to retain it in the proper position.
It would be interesting to hear the thought of others here. The 79-85 Eldorados were the highest selling generation of all of the Eldorados and there is almost no aftermarket support. The taillights are brittle. I was amazed when BigBird finally put his back together. Even broken parts one eBay are expensive.
Scott
Quote from: 79 Eldorado on May 30, 2022, 08:18:45 PM
I started working on the taillights for the 1979-1985 Eldorados but other projects have taken priority. There's a thread on them on Cadillacforums here:
https://www.cadillacforums.com/threads/1979-to-1985-eldorado-tail-light-lenses.1109907/
Phillip aka "BigBird" had a disaster scenario. I made some progress but my model could use some refining and I thought about redesigning the interface between the clear part and the part where the bulbs turn-into ("grey part").
My thought was the grey part would be printed. A master would be made for the clear-red part using 3D printing and finishing. A mold would be made from the master and then the clear part would be poured/molded. There is prism/diamond like material inside but I think I found a source for that. My thought was a piece could be water jet cut and the clear-red part could have geometry to retain it in the proper position.
It would be interesting to hear the thought of others here. The 79-85 Eldorados were the highest selling generation of all of the Eldorados and there is almost no aftermarket support. The taillights are brittle. I was amazed when BigBird finally put his back together. Even broken parts one eBay are expensive.
Scott
Looks great, nice work!
I'd agree. Grey part should be an MJF part in PA12. Clear red is tough, FDM won't work because of how it prints which leaves something like SLA or Polyjet. SLA would probably get too brittle. Best option would be low volume vacuum forming in PC.