No Spark, 56 Cadillac Ignition problem

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

I would not recommend using oven cleaner on the chassis of your car.  First of all, it's
highly caustic and with it dripping down from the car you risk being severly burned -- and
all the more so when you go to pressure wash it off.  This stuff is dangerous and is
a pH (level of caustic measure) similar to lye.  Also, if you get any on a painted surface
where you don't want it -- it will ruin your paint.

For the undercoating, use a heat gun and a selection of scrapers (old putty knive, etc) to
get most of the crud off.  Then follow up with a safe type of cleaner (as you mentioned)
to remove the rest.  If you have to, use some mineral spirits to get it squeaky clean then
use a water based cleaner / detergent.

Mike

[Otto Skorzeny]

Bruce is right. Don't use anti-seize thread stuff on head bolts or any other fastener in which the torque specs are critical.

[Glen]

That’s a new one on me guys.  Working on submarines for many years we always used anti-seize.  I’ve had to measure the running torque (how much torque it takes to turn the bolt in the hole) and add that to required torque to get the final reading I need to go to on the wrench, but I’ve never heard of the use of anti-seize resulting on over torque of bolts.  Do you have any source for that information?   

Glen

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Glen,

In a Saline world as in Submarines and other Maritime areas, Anti-seize would be the norm, as you can only paint things so much.   Battleship Grey sure builds up when used to excess.

In the automotive world, where maintenance isn't performed as often as it should be, one needs to ensure that bolts and nuts are tightened correctly.

When installing Head Bolts, you would be surprised just how much more a Head Bolt can be turned by simply oiling the underside on head surface of the bolt where it turns on the head.   Using hardened washers under the head of the bolt further allows the bolt to be tightened than if it was being tightened against the plain Cast Iron of the Head.

Removing basic friction from the scenario, allows a further ability to let the bolt turn and stretch before it reaches breaking or failure point without the operator realising it.

These days of Head Bolt Tightening using a mixture of Low Torque, then degree-rotation to arrive at the designed "Stretch" is far superior to the old method of simply turning till a high torque reading is obtained as these "Stretch Bolts" are a one use fastening, and not a multiple use bolt.

With the old bolts, one isn't really sure when they should be replaced, or when the threads in the Block will give way, and therefore require Helicoils to restore the Block to a useful item.   Old bolts were really an overkill as I think the Designers relied on Gasket Crush instead of Bolt Stretch to secure complete sealing.

Bruce.

PS.   The only time I would use Anti-seize on a Head Bolt or Stud would be when doing a Head Job on a Jaguar, and only then, it would be on the Shank to stop, or limit the Heads corroding itself to the Studs.   Many times, one removes the nuts from a 6 cyl Jag Engine, and still not be able to remove the Head.   

[Christopher Petti]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I talked with fellow car owners at work and they told me that the Oven Cleaner was a bad idea. Not including the burn if it gets on your skin. I appreciate the thought Glen. Submarine Engines, That sounds pretty awesome! Definitely a different animal though. I never really thought Anti seize would make that big of a difference but I guess it does. I guess I won't be using it. Although I know a lot of others that swear by anti seize as well. Hey Bruce, I lived in Melbourne for 6 months last year. I worked for Holden right there in Fishermans bend. Beautiful country and culture mate. I really dig it and would love to return again some day. Thanks for all the help. I think I'm on the right track and will have her cleaned up and running in the next week. I feel bad because the weather is nice and the new exhaust has just arrived. I'm eager to get her running. 

[eldo59]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I talked with fellow car owners at work and they told me that the Oven Cleaner was a bad idea. Not including the burn if it gets on your skin. I appreciate the thought Glen. Submarine Engines, That sounds pretty awesome! Definitely a different animal though. I never really thought Anti seize would make that big of a difference but I guess it does. I guess I won't be using it. Although I know a lot of others that swear by anti seize as well. Hey Bruce, I lived in Melbourne for 6 months last year. I worked for Holden right there in Fishermans bend. Beautiful country and culture mate. I really dig it and would love to return again some day. Thanks for all the help. I think I'm on the right track and will have her cleaned up and running in the next week. I feel bad because the weather is nice and the new exhaust has just arrived. I'm eager to get her running. 

Chris,if I knew you where in Melbourne,I would have taken you for a cruise in my 59 eldo.Where were you staying??I used to work at Fishermans bend about 20 years ago just near the Westgate Bridge.

[Glen]

My post was a little vague.  I do know that lubricant on the threads have an effect.  What I am curious about is the significance. 

I Googled the subject and the results are here:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=+torque+anti+seize&btnG=Search

The subject seems to be a little controversial. 

I was surprised that the clamping force may be increased by as much as 20% between dry and wet torque.  But what does the mean in bolt stretch and thread deformation in the block?  I am also curious about what that means in torque values.  For example if you torque a 3/8ths bolt to 60 ft-lb dry, what would you need to torque the same bolt to (still dry) to get the bolt stretch you would have gotten if the bolt was wet?  Is it significant difference in torque values? 

The next question is how accurate is your torque wrench?  Are the inaccuracies of your torque wrench in the same range as the difference in the torque differences between wet and dry torque values?  In the shipyard we had torque wrenches with calibration traceable to the National Institute of Standards and Technology formally the National Bureau of Standards.  How accurate is that wrench from China? 

I do use anti-seize on all the threaded fasteners on my cars and ball joints too.  I prefer that to trying to remove a broken bolt.  I’ve never had any problems.  Over 300,000 miles on the 68-ELDO and I do all my own work. 

I guess this is something everyone has to make their own mind up on. 

It’s interesting I get into this discussion now.  I just had to remove a battery charging generator from a locomotive.  The mounting bolts are ¾ inch fine thread.  It took a 4 foot breaker bar with me putting my knee on the end to break the bolts loose.  The bolts are now stretched and do not turn easily in the hole.  Running torque to remove them was about 15 ft-lb after breaking them loose.  Hopefully the bolt holes in the block are repairable.   

Glen

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

... if you torque a 3/8ths bolt to 60 ft-lb dry, what would you need to torque the same bolt to (still dry) to get the bolt stretch you would have gotten if the bolt was wet?  Is it significant difference in torque values? 

The trouble with Torquing a bolt dry is that excess friction is a detriment to the ability of the thread to turn in a spiral moment, and the head to turn rotationally.   Add a lubricant, and apply the same torque, and the bolt would stretch a lot more, but it might be impossible to get the dry bolt to the same stretch without it breaking, or stripping the thread.

The next question is how accurate is your torque wrench?  Are the inaccuracies of your torque wrench in the same range as the difference in the torque differences between wet and dry torque values?  In the shipyard we had torque wrenches with calibration traceable to the National Institute of Standards and Technology formally the National Bureau of Standards.  How accurate is that wrench from China?

Surpisingly enough, I have tested Chinese, and Taiwanese Torque Wrenches, and they are the same standard as as my good Aussie Warren and Brown Wrench.

It’s interesting I get into this discussion now.  I just had to remove a battery charging generator from a locomotive.  The mounting bolts are ¾ inch fine thread.  It took a 4 foot breaker bar with me putting my knee on the end to break the bolts loose.  The bolts are now stretched and do not turn easily in the hole.  Running torque to remove them was about 15 ft-lb after breaking them loose.  Hopefully the bolt holes in the block are repairable.

Doesn't sound good at all.

Bruce.

[Christopher Petti]

I stayed at the Short Stay Apartments at 186 City Rd. In Southbank. I was right down the street from the BMW dealership, right behind the casino. I had such a ball drinking all the bitter. Your 59 looks killer mate. I loved the passion for v8's that Aussies have. Aussie's are true American car lovers. I went to Castle Main for the anniversary of the 32 Ford. There was a ton of nice cars. I have a lot of pics and footage from my visit. I wish I would have know you at the time of my visit. I didn't have a Cadillac at that time but next time definitely. Hope all is well down under. 

[Christopher Petti]

Ok, I'm now scratching my head once again. I have a brand new  rebuilt starter, All my currant is running and yet I still get no spark. I even replaced the coil. I have to go over it again today. I can not figure out why I have no spark. My resistor is new and hooked up very well. All the connections are good on the points. I can't figure it out. Everything is new. Wires, cap, rotor. I am puzzled. I know it's something stupid. A connection. I'm going to go check again and see if I can't figure it out. Any suggestions? I feel like I have gone over everything. I feel like somewhere in the distributor it's losing the connection.

[35-709]

Checked that ignition switch yet? 

[J. Gomez]

Christopher,

Since you have already verify the proper 12V positive voltage at the coil, the only item left as you mention would be the distributor.

If the distributor is at fault, make sure the point, condenser is properly grounded. There is a small wire from the breaker plate that extends ground from the distributor casing, this could be open.

Good luck..!

[Dan LeBlanc]

I had the same problem when I rebuilt my first 1962 Cadillac 390 engine.  Got ready to fire it up for the first time, had gas, fuel, fire at the points and coil, but none to the plugs.  I tried for 12 hours to get that engine running and not even a kick.  Double checked the firing order, the plug wires, plug gap, still no spark.  Had new coil, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, everything.

The problem was, I never worked on a points-style ignition before.

My wife's 80 year old grandfather came out, pulled off the cap, looked at the points, futzed with them a bit, put the cap back on, and said now try it.  1/2 turn and the thing was purring like a kitten.

I made the newbie mistake of adjusting my points while the rubber block was on the flat part of the distributor cam, not the high part.  The points were open all the time.  I had .016" when they were supposed to be CLOSED!

It may sound dumb, but double check it.

[jeff1956]

going back to a previous post...will it crank? i had the ign terminal on my prev 56 ign switch to go bad....car wouldnt hit a lick. just wouldnt start one day. my current 56 accessories died out of the blue that turned out to be a faulty acc terminal on the ign switch....took a good switch out of my 55 and had lock tumbler changed and all is well...if its not cranking id def check the switch.

jeff

[John Washburn CLC 1067 Sadly deceased.]

 It has been a long timr, but if I remeber it, the yellow wire is the one you should be considered about and it goes on the top terminal of the solenoid.

This is the wire to the resistor.

Good luck.

John W

[Christopher Petti]

Checked that ignition switch yet? 

Ignition switch? I'll look in the manual to see what you are referring to.

[Christopher Petti]

It has been a long timr, but if I remeber it, the yellow wire is the one you should be considered about and it goes on the top terminal of the solenoid.

This is the wire to the resistor.

Good luck.

John W

John,
  That is the wire that has been puzzling me. When I recieved the car this wire wasn't connected to anything on the solenoid. It was dangling and the brass fitting that was attached to it was still connected to the bottom terminal on the solenoid. The connection closest to the top of the car was the blue wire. I'm going to read the manual tonight and see if I can find a acurate diagram. Schematic.

[Christopher Petti]

going back to a previous post...will it crank? i had the ign terminal on my prev 56 ign switch to go bad....car wouldnt hit a lick. just wouldnt start one day. my current 56 accessories died out of the blue that turned out to be a faulty acc terminal on the ign switch....took a good switch out of my 55 and had lock tumbler changed and all is well...if its not cranking id def check the switch.

jeff

Cranking? The starter is working and the engine is turning. There is no spark. I'm going to read up and figure out on the solenoid where the yellow wire should be, Blue wire. The Two reds I understand but the bLue and yellow I'm a little unsure of at this moment. Where is the ignition switch?

[Christopher Petti]

I had the same problem when I rebuilt my first 1962 Cadillac 390 engine.  Got ready to fire it up for the first time, had gas, fuel, fire at the points and coil, but none to the plugs.  I tried for 12 hours to get that engine running and not even a kick.  Double checked the firing order, the plug wires, plug gap, still no spark.  Had new coil, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, everything.

The problem was, I never worked on a points-style ignition before.

My wife's 80 year old grandfather came out, pulled off the cap, looked at the points, futzed with them a bit, put the cap back on, and said now try it.  1/2 turn and the thing was purring like a kitten.

I made the newbie mistake of adjusting my points while the rubber block was on the flat part of the distributor cam, not the high part.  The points were open all the time.  I had .016" when they were supposed to be CLOSED!

It may sound dumb, but double check it.

Dan I have adjusted the points or gapped them like five times now. I understand what you were doing and I get it. I gapped them while the nylon was on the lobe of the cam. The high spot. I have been playing with the gapping this evening because I'm running out of ideas. I don't know why I'm getting no spark. I  also checked the coil wire and when I detached it from the cap and grounded it at on the top of the block there was no spark or anything when I cranked the engine with one of my buddies. I'm drawing a blank.

[Christopher Petti]

Christopher,

Since you have already verify the proper 12V positive voltage at the coil, the only item left as you mention would be the distributor.

If the distributor is at fault, make sure the point, condenser is properly grounded. There is a small wire from the breaker plate that extends ground from the distributor casing, this could be open.

Good luck..!

I'll check it Jose. I don't think that ground has ever been removed and I think it's in good shape.You are talking about the short one correct?