Painting the car a different color than its original one.

[Makandriaco]

I read on a different thread that if you choose a different color, as long as it is one of available colors for that same model, you do not lose points in authenticity. Is this correct? Could I paint my Car Seminole Red even though it was originally Gotham Gold?

[59-in-pieces]

I am fortunate to have an original: 1959 Cadillac - Color and Upholstery Selections - dealer book.
According to the "Book", Seminole Red #50 was available on your Gotham Gold # 40 model.
Even if you wanted to paint the car with one of the standard Eldorado - Biarritz or Seville - colors, that would be OK too, because those colors were available to other models at a higher price.
I have included a photo of the "Book's" cover as well as a PPG Ditzler color chip chart of the 1959 Cadillac colors of the time.
Note the Biarritz/Seville designations in the center column.
You do have the issue of a purist who looks at the data tag and sees a color code not matching the color on the car.
For me, who cares.
Drive what you like, in the color you like.
Have fun,
Steve B.

[Makandriaco]

Thanks a lot, that opens up a lot of possibilities. And since we are on the subject and you have the book. If I was to paint it Seminole Red, what are good choices for the upholstery?

[Louis Smith]

Thanks a lot, that opens up a lot of possibilities. And since we are on the subject and you have the book. If I was to paint it Seminole Red, what are good choices for the upholstery?

The guaranteed best color is the one that you like the best.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Thanks a lot, that opens up a lot of possibilities. And since we are on the subject and you have the book. If I was to paint it Seminole Red, what are good choices for the upholstery?

The ultimate interior for a Seminole Red exterior would be the two tone red & white leather combo. However, this would not be correct on a closed car unless it were a special order; also such an interior redo would be a very expensive proposition, perhaps as much as $10,000 in genuine leather.  But boy oh boy, would it ever look a treat.

Barring that, and if you'd like to retain as authentic appearance as possible, your best bet would be the black cloth & white vinyl combo to go with Seminole red (at considerably less expense) that's correct for a Series 62.   

[76eldo]

I don't think that the judges would decode your cowl tag to see that your car is the factory authentic color, so if you use the correct red for a 59, it shouldn't be a problem.

However, if and when you go to sell the car, it will negatively impact the price.  That being said, a red car would probably be more appealing to many, and if that's what you want, go for it.

Brian

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

Having judged at the Grand Nationals for 25 years, I can tell you that the general rule is that as long as the car is painted a color that was available during the year of production, there is
no deduction (vs. the original color on the body tag).  Of course, some people had their cars repainted by the dealer, or had a special order color from the factory, etc.  That's OK too, as
long as you have documentation that verifies that.

Judging aside, the fact that it is repainted a different color vs. the data sheet / data tag might
deter some future buyers and lower the asking price, as previous posters have noted.

Doing a total color change is not an easy job and can get quite expensive to do it
correctly.  All of the trim should be removed, the inside of the doors, trunk, etc. all
have to be matched to the new color.  There is quite a bit of labor involved.

However, that said, the best color is the one that makes you happy!  It's your car and have
fun with it.

Mike

[Grant Owen]

Hi Ricardo, Whats wrong with Gotham Gold one of my favorite 59 colors , but the color is up to you if you choose Red it will be just another Red 59 Cadillac.  I agree with Mike if doing a color change has to be done properly all not at all, nothing worse than blackened engine bays, poor masking etc.
Attached picture of one of my 59's painted its original colors Gotham Gold & Dover White.

[52Cadillac]

There's an awful large number of red convertibles. I'm with Grant on the gold. Looks great. But alas the happiness of the decision lies with you, not us. Is the interior in good shape? If so, match it to a color you like.
Mike

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Changing the color may or may not damage the value- it all depends on who's writing the check. Many are indifferent to authenticity, correctness etc and simply want what appeals to them. Personally, I tend to err on the side of keeping a car as true as it was the day it was born.

Keep in mind, a full color change will be significantly more costly as others have noted. Weigh your choices carefully.

 

[Louis Smith]

Changing the color may or may not damage the value- it all depends on who's writing the check. Many are indifferent to authenticity, correctness etc and simply want what appeals to them. Personally, I tend to err on the side of keeping a car as true as it was the day it was born.

Keep in mind, a full color change will be significantly more costly as others have noted. Weigh your choices carefully.

One man's opinion:  I really think the whole debate about original, matching numbers etc. cars being worth more is greatly overrated.  I think that basically if a car looks great and runs great, it will be a quick seller.  Yes there might be a proliferation of red Cadillacs, but ask yourself, "why is that?".  The answer simply is because they are most popular.  Red, like black and white are the "money colors".

[gary griffin]

This was an easy decision for me, my 1942  6719  was originally painted Antoinette Blue and when the air force sold it at a surplus auction in 1951 it was tan with a white top.

I simply repainted it (It really needed paint, see my restoration blog to see it in both colors)  Antoinette Blue.

Indoors in a garage or shop it looks black but in direct sun light the blue can be seen.

I think any original color would be correct!!

[59-in-pieces]

I have provided photos of the dual color combinations from the "Book" that would align with a Seminole Red exterior color, for both the Sixty Two and Sedan De Ville models (the small white flecks or lines that show in the photos in the cloth are bright shiny silver threads).
The other interior combinations would not be compatible with RED - one man's opinion: greens, blues, browns.

The suggested red and white combination was for either the non-Eldorado convertible (non-specific patterned leathers), and the Eldorado Seville (Florentine and Cardiff patterned leathers) - and no other models as standard offering.
However, there is evidence that a single Eldorado Biarritz was special ordered with the red and white combination, and there are a great many cars with after market upholstery which also have the red and white combination.

There is always the old stand-by totally Black - no combinations.

Because there were so many individual and combinations of colors available for all models, the "Book" is not a set of handcuffs (unless you are a points purist and there are some judges like that), but rather the "Book" shows the OEM colors and combinations offered at the time, which never restricted special orders.

Although I don't think it ever hurts to know what is right, as Louis says "The guaranteed best color is the one that you like the best.".

Have fun,
Steve B.

[Richard Sills - CLC #936]

Mike Josephic is correct regarding the CLC judging rules.  Even if it is known that your car is a color change, so long as the color on the car was available from the factory in that year, there are no point deductions.  I believe AACA takes the same approach as CLC.

This viewpoint differs from some of the other marque clubs that will deduct points for any deviation from the original configuration of the car.  But that should not be an issue for a Cadillac.

The concerns that others have pointed out still remain:

1.  It is more costly to refinish a car with a color change than to re-do it in its original color.

2.  Some buyers will consider a car less desirable if it has had a change of color.

3.  You also have the issue of what color interior to select.  From a "purist" perspective, it should be an interior that would have been correct for a car with the exterior color you select.

4.  The interior choice may also affect the trunk lining.  In 1960 -- and I think also in 1959 -- a Cadillac's trunk upholstery color was keyed to its interior color.  So, for example, if a Cadillac had a fawn interior originally, and that was being changed to black and white, the interior change would also affect the color of the trunk lining.

I recently saw a Coupe deVille at auction that was bright red outside, with red and white leather interior.  The seller swore it was redone exactly the same as the original colors of the car.  I made a mental note of the trim numbers and did a little homework -- the car was originally two-tone green, with green cloth and leather interior.  As I thought, you could not get a red and white all leather interior in a Coupe deVille.  The exception would be if you special-ordered it -- and in that case, the data plate would indicate a non-stock interior.

Of course, if the only concern is your personal preference, then none of this matters, and you can finish it however you please!

Richard

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

One man's opinion:  I really think the whole debate about original, matching numbers etc. cars being worth more is greatly overrated.  I think that basically if a car looks great and runs great, it will be a quick seller.  Yes there might be a proliferation of red Cadillacs, but ask yourself, "why is that?".  The answer simply is because they are most popular.  Red, like black and white are the "money colors".

Not a case of being "overrated" or not. It's simply a case of something that is seen as significant by a significant number of people.

[Louis Smith]

Not a case of being "overrated" or not. It's simply a case of something that is seen as significant by a significant number of people.

Who are these significant number of people?  Would they be the individuals, that used to be called the idle rich, that have deep pockets at the major car auctions, and, for the most part not as knowledgeable as most members?  I have seen many hurt feelings due to judging, plus know of a few members that left the club.  Like Willie Mays said when asked when he is going to retire.  "When its not fun anymore".

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Who are these significant number of people?  Would they be the individuals, that used to be called the idle rich, that have deep pockets at the major car auctions, and, for the most part not as knowledgeable as most members?  I have seen many hurt feelings due to judging, plus know of a few members that left the club.  Like Willie Mays said when asked when he is going to retire.  "When its not fun anymore".

It's difficult to imagine one not having witnessed the increased emphasis & attention to originality, correctness and preservation over the past 10-20 years in the old car hobby. Much has changed since the days when nobody thought twice about taking a very well preserved #3 original and giving it a full frame-off restoration. In fact, such an act was invariably considered righteous - especially when in the late '80s & early '90s the first major explosion in the old car hobby occurred- fueled by overseas (particularly Japanese) economy.

Since then, however a number of factors began to become recognized & appreciated:

1. Time stands still for no restoration.

2. No restoration can ever exactly duplicate a car as it left the factory.

3. The quantity of good to fine originals was no longer what it had been.

It's my opinion that these factors have resulted in a "backlash" (for lack of a better word) against modified, altered or otherwise tampered-with cars in favor of those most original and best preserved. The sheer rarity of such material has resulted in those being the choicest and most prized among the most knowledgeable and appreciative collectors.

That said, perfectly preserved originals and/or those with minimal modifications are not necessarily everybody's ideal- which is fine. However, the number of those who prize correctness and original detail has increased dramatically and the best representations of that ideal -are today, and will continue to be- the most desirable and the best blue chip investor cars in the long term.

**It's been my experience that the "idle rich" are far less likely to pony up for originality instead preferring restorations that may be incorrect, but are prettier. Those for whom originality of detail and preservation are passions, seldom fall into the uber-rich category- although no doubt there are some. And attention to these issues is by no means, income-dependent.

By casually dismissing these issues as "overrated", "overblown" and the like, you do an injustice to the many for whom these passions run deep and expend the time, research and energy bringing their car(s) to the very best standards of authenticity, correctness and originality.     

[76eldo]

Eric,

You are wasting your time with this guy.

The bulk of the club is into restoring and maintaining their cars in proper original condition and always on the hunt for original parts, and asking a zillion questions regarding authenticity and originality.

Everyone I know that are into these cars are neither "idle" or "rich". 

Louis, will you be coming to Boston?  I'd like to check out your Cadillac sometime it would be nice to discuss these things in person.

Brian

[Louis Smith]

By casually dismissing these issues as "overrated", "overblown" and the like, you do an injustice to the many for whom these passions run deep and expend the time, research and energy bringing their car(s) to the very best standards of authenticity, correctness and originality.     

Injustice?  I think not.  Next time you are at a major event, do some eavesdropping on the "general public" as they chat about the car they are viewing.  See how many break out a tape measure and measure the width of the whitewalls.  Most individuals aren't all that concerned with the time and effort put into restoring or maintaining a classic automobile.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Most individuals aren't all that concerned with the time and effort put into restoring or maintaining a classic automobile.

That depends on the barrel from which you're sampling the demographic. As the CLC is a marque club, the majority of its membership are indeed concerned with the maintenance, restoration and preservation of their vehicles to the highest standards of excellence, I assure you.

As Brian has said, much gets lost in forum discourse and in that vein, I had invited you to call me to discuss your concerns which I felt would yield a far more productive dialogue. Since you have not done so, I can see no benefit in prolonging this discussion here. Should you reconsider, my invitation remains open at your convenience.

Eric