Searching for 1959 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz-Need Advice

[Scot Minesinger]

If I was selling a 100k plus car that was authentic, any questions proposed by perspective buyers especially as related to documenting mileage, model, body tag, VIN, engine number and the like that created much of the value, I would be impressed and answer all questions satisfactorily.  The idea that a seller avoids questions of this type is a deal killer for me.  The most compelling e-bay advertisement for a 59 Eldorado for over 200k to me was one that read "40k miles, a/c, no excuses", and of course it was red with white interior.  You can't have any authenticity excuses that are not thoroughly answered if you are selling a 100k+ car based on rarity and etc. 

[AMERIKANISCH]

   Thank you for all for your comments.

   Wrefakis (or can I call you Bill?),

   So, you are familiar with the Persian Sand car I saw in Costa Mesa, you say?

   Do you think that the restored interior is leather or vinyl? Wasn't the original mostly leather?

    Just out of curiosity, what do you think a fair price would be for this car?

    Thanks!

[chrisntam]

Chris,

   The 1970 Caddy is just about the most beautiful car ever produced in my estimation. ..........................
  Anyway, what made you decide for the '70 over the '69? As a collector, I would have thought it might be best to go for the first year of the body style.

Sorry to for the late reply, personal stuff has been keeping me away.

Like Scot said, the '70 was a bit more "refined" than the '69.  I like the '70 grille much better than the '69.  Though the '69 steering wheel is more attractive than the '70, you don't have to deal with the rim-blow issue.  The '69 had an air pump, the '70 did not.  The '70 472 block is better equipped to take a 500 crankshaft, which is what I put in mine during the rebuild.  I'm not what I would consider a collector, but have always wanted an old Cadillac.  After owning a '75 Olds 88 Convertible, I now understand that the Cadillacs "appear" to be better built and better engineered than other cars.  I intend to drive mine when I can, it won't be my daily driver, but as soon as I'm comfortable with it's dependability, I'll be taking it on road trips.

I do hope the search is going well for you.  Have you looked at what the auction houses have as far as inventory?  Barrett Jackson, Mecum, Gooding & Co, Russo & Steele, Auctions America and Leake Auction company........I hate to get in a bidding war with someone, but it is possible they may be bringing the car you are looking for to auction.  Don't forget about Hemmings Motor News too.  Keep us updated with all your goings on, we are living vicariously through you and thanks for letting us follow along!

chris.

[wrefakis]

that Persian car was just a driver that ran thru all the dealers from 85k up,again back in 89 the same bs went on with these cars with the auction crooks selling to imaginary Japanese for 200k,i think they got a fish or 2,by 95 35-45 bought you a nice redone driver,your 220k green one brought around 40k at auction in 96
when I looked at that Persian one in 99 I thought it was way over the money at 90k
most of these cars are glued together drivers at best
here is one for your the body tag is on a pile of parts sold to a big$$$ guy who thinks he has the best on on the planet

[AMERIKANISCH]

Chris,

   It is I who thank YOU.
   Having you fine gentlemen take the time to help out a virtual stranger is a privilege that I really did not expect.
   Sure, I expected a few short comments, good luck, and good bye but I never expected you all to show such an interest. You guys are really Cadillac aficionados and I certainly appreciate the help.

   Regarding auction houses: I never seriously considered them because of lack of access. Would they let me drive it? have an expert look at it? They had an auction in Newport Beach about a month ago and sold a '59 62 series convertible. I think that it went for just over $100 K. It was probably a nice car- or should be for that much money.I would think that for $102 K (I think that was the price) it should have been perfect, but who knows? Competing with some crazy, wealthy bidder who simply HAS to have the car at all costs really turns me off.

   Thanks again!

[chrisntam]

Here's a relatively recent "completed" auction from eBay, but the car has no a/c.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1959-Biarritz-Bucket-Seats-Movie-Car-Air-Ride-Bucket-Seats-match-/351108318458?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&forcerrptr=true&hash=item51bfafc4fa&item=351108318458&nma=true&si=ZRgE%252FWDB6T4kAeGWxLroMzaD%252FnY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

If you have seen it already, sorry.  If not, it's worth a look to see how it's equipped and it's general condition.  I would imagine the seller still has it, but that's just a guess.

[AMERIKANISCH]

Chris,

I actually spoke to this guy on the phone. The incorrect interior kind of turned me off. Plus the starting bid is not low.

He said that he had a super 59 Eldo but he would not sell it,  and even if he would,  I am sure he would want the moon for it.

He is a big time collector and owns many cars from what I gathered. so he is ultra sophisticated. So even if I could get it for $145000 I would probably have to dump in what? Another $30 K to redo the interior and make it correct?

I guess it's good that it has the air ride and original radio available but I would much rather do without the air ride- which has problems anyway- and have the correct interior.

Also, I don't think this has A/C either.

Am I being too picky?
 

[chrisntam]

Am I being too picky?

Hail no, not picky at all.  Get what you want and don't settle. The better cars take more time to find and (I assume) don't come up for sale as often as the ones in lesser condition.

My '70 had what I call "good bones".  It did need some work, but was basically a great starting place.  I like to work on them so it was a good one for me.  It was the color I wanted along with the options I wanted.

Know what the true value of the car you are looking for, deduct from the asking price the estimated costs to put in what is necessary to get it to the level where it needs to be, then that is your offer price.  Also, don't be worried about making an offer on the car, you never know what kind of financial shape the seller is in or how "motivated" he is.  The asking price is just that - what he's asking.  The selling price often times is much different.  I assume buyers for these cars at that level are not everywhere, and due to that fact fewer and farther between.

All this advice we are providing is easy for me (and us) to say as we aren't emotionally invested in it as you are and that makes it a bit more difficult for you. 

As a side note, I paid $17k for my '70 and put in about another $17k (so far) for a total of $34k.  I won't get that out of it now, but I intend to keep it for 20 to 30 years (I'm 54) so the cost over that time is what, $1200 to  $1700 per year + the value of it at the end and I'm good with that. And working on it is part of the journey.  A restored and mint '70 vert would be valued at $25k to $35k, but selling and getting that price would take some time.

[AMERIKANISCH]

Chris,

Wow! sounds reasonable! Less than $35 K for a beautiful, collectable convertible Caddy. Actually, prettier than the '59.
But I tend to go all out and since my space is limited, I need to make this really count. If I had an 8 car garage, I would probably go wild.

I also like the Mark II Continental. I hope that I did not commit sacrilege here. Nothing flamboyant like the '59 Caddy but just a nice, solid and rare car. Hand-built, I believe. I see so many 55-57 T birds, the Mark would be much nicer. The only problem is that the Mark doesn't come in a production drop top. But don't get me wrong, I still like the Caddy better so I hope that my confession will not be held against me .

[AMERIKANISCH]

Thanks for the heads up, Grant.


I was a little bit leery of this guy anyway because he is obviously a wheeler-dealer. I would much rather buy from an 85 year-old who loved his car and is selling for health reasons. But I realize that ideal situations don't always conveniently turn up.

By the way, New Zealand is touted here in the States as a great place to which to immigrate.

[AMERIKANISCH]

49er,

Thank you for your fine advice. After seeing you guys pick apart a few cars that I was looking at (not seriously considering, mind you), I can see that there appears to be a lot of false advertising and attempts at trickery out there.
  When spending this much money, I cannot afford NOT to be patient- and, as an impatient man, that is quite an accomplishment.
   I presume that you will have local experts you can recommend when I find a car that has passed preliminary inspection?

[MR.59]

HI, Gents, just joined, and was pulled in reading these last 3 pages,,,,,,,,,,
interesting reading at best!
here is my 2 cents on buying from collector car dealers, you have good ones, and bad ones, Costa mesa  has a few too many high priced ones,,,,
almost all  C.M dealers are looking for a EUROPEAN buyer  someone that won`t ask allot of questions, and will see a bargain after the euro or pound, gets converted to  the weaker US dollar.
i did many restorations on fine European cars for many years, and in the 90`s  saw the overseas resellers take hold in that town.

[AMERIKANISCH]

The Costa Mesa broker with the Persian Sand Eldo made me a bit wary. Anybody who wheels and deals collectable cars on a daily basis is almost bound to get the better end of the deal. When the eyebrows were missing and they had no idea who restored the car, even I was put on guard and it was the first car that I looked at.

And when they would not come off their $180,000 price, I knew it was time to walk out. They have since shipped the car to Monterey for auction. Who knows? They might get their price after all.

You guys know your stuff and you would not be fooled. Unfortunately, it would appear that I have to compete with deep pockets who buy on emotion without doing their homework and foreigners- ditto.

[Scot Minesinger]

Unfortunately I think you are 100% correct, the people with deep pockets who do not research properly and the people out of the Country all seem to want cars of this super collectable plateau.  That is what makes them valuable and establishes price.  You can win:

1.  The quality is long remembered after the price is forgotten.  If you plan to keep the car a while and enjoy it, it will appreciate and you will do OK.  This is a hobby more than it is an investment - like golf maybe.  If you really want a 59 Eldorado, it will be unreasonably expensive for a good one that drives well and is correct.

2.  You can buy a high quality undiscovered underappreciated Cadillac classic today.  The 1960 Eldorados are not cheap, but I like them better than the 1959's.  The 1961 thru 1963 Eldorados are under appreciated I think.  Also the 1959 and 1960 Eldorado Broughams are underappreciated.  You just can't go wrong with my favorites that are nice highway cruisers: a high quality 1959-1970 Cadillac convertible.

You only live once, so maybe it has to be the 1959 Eldorado.

Whatever you do, don't buy a basket case car, those do not bring joy.  Look at the car yourself and drive it yourself before buying.  In the price brackets you are interested in, the car should be close to perfect.  It should start, drive handle and stop like a dream.  All accessories such as, power top, power windows, windshield wipers/washer, vacuum locks/trunk release (should work a day after shutting car off) and etc should work perfectly.

Good luck,

Scot

[76eldo]

I inspect cars for foreign buyers frequently.
They like to know what they are getting into and at times are quite picky.
Some classic car dealers take advantage and overstate and misrepresent their cars.  Some are quite fair.  It's possible to get a nice car from a dealer because they buy cars from many different sources and sometimes get a real steal from a motivated seller or estate.  If they buy it right they can sell it at a fair price and still make money.

It would be great to find a nicely restored car or original from a private seller and if you are patient one may turn up. I'd join the CLC if you haven't already and post an ad under  cars wanted.

Anything that you buy should be inspected for you if you cannot get to see the car in person.
At this dollar level people cannot be trusted to convey the honest condition of the car.  Even if they just swap the hubcaps after you buy the car it's thousands of dollars lost.

If you are flexible on color choice and location I am sure something will come up.

Good luck,

Brian

[wrefakis]

the car will not sell for 180k they will bid it up to 150 with the soda machine as high bidder and close the bidding

sit on your $$$$ there will be cars coming up,we are at the cycle peak,this car and the white one have been run thru every auction on earth,ditto for the movie car on ebay,the buy for 65 sell for 130 model is in big trouble

it takes a bit of time to find the right car,but last summer I sold a white original clean one with 29k original miles for 110 and that was every dime it would bring after the entire world passed on it
I doubt that car would bring north of 90 right now

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

the car will not sell for 180k they will bid it up to 150 with the soda machine as high bidder and close the bidding

The soda machine! LOL!

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

How about the name Phantom or Shill  may be more like it....

We say "the wall was bidding on it" in our neck of the woods. 

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Bill knows more individual '59 EBZs probably better than anybody - he's the man the OP should consult.

FWIW - a buddy has had nothing but heartaches with the A/S 30,000 mile near-mint original Ritz and just after getting the car back from the shop for the umpteenth time for the A/S, only to suffer a minor engine fire due to the troublesome 6 pack carb.

Yes, they're gorgeous - the holy grail of postwar Cadillac but personally I want a car that I can turn the key and go with a minimum of muss & fuss. And I really wouldn't want one converted to 4 bbl on coils because it's always going to be a negative in the eyes of many - unless you were lucky enough to find one that had been specially ordered without those "extras" - which I doubt many were, if at all.

For this cowboy, a Series 62 convertible would do just as well - and pocket $50K.

[AMERIKANISCH]

Eric,

   I have not ruled out a 62 convertible and if a good one came along at the right price, I would "settle". This is especially true if the Eldos all turned out to be lipsticked pigs.

   The Eldo would be for Sunday drives, occasional informal car shows. If I got a white one, I might consider having myself and the car for hire to schlep the happy couple to and from the wedding reception. More for fun than the income, you understand but that way, I could write-off part of the operating costs.

  A red one would be perfect for the Huntington Beach Fourth of July Parade. My character is Ben Franklin (some say that there is a resemblance) and I could just see my character along with Abe Lincoln and George Washington sitting on the parade boot and waving to the crowds. I likely would not be paid, but it sure would be fun.

   Not sure what occasion a black or Persian Sand would serve. I am not really into funerals and the lavender car is pretty but kind of a fem color (maybe a gay pride parade?). No, I think I'll pass on both of those activities LOL. But I'd still buy a black or Persian Sand car if it was "right".

    If I got an Eldo with a chronic mechanical problem that could not be cured any other way, I think that I would correct the problems with new equipment and save the old parts- so I could always sell with the original equipment in case the buyer would want to change the car back.