3d printing basics and what sorts of Cadillac parts are possible

[39Flathead]

Maybe we are not far from having a mobile service like they now do for rain gutters.   You long into a site like Rock Auto and instead of them shipping you a part a truck shows up in front of your house and spits out the parts?

Doubt it. Shipping is cheap and many of the more advanced printers have very complex environmental requirements. Makes more sense to operate large print farms and spend the $10 shipping a part.

[TJ Hopland]

I suppose it would end up being a truck like those mobile cat scan lab things that carries its own power and climate which also doesn't come cheap.    I did read that they either have or are soon getting a printer on the space station.  That's kinda neat and a good application because shipping there is a little slow and expensive.   Like the article said imagine if there was such a technology on Apollo 13 they could have just printed an adapter for their air scrubber.   If they get the cookie oven thing perfected it would be just like my basement setup where I eat cookies and watch the printer doing its thing while the world goes by literally in their case. 

[39Flathead]

I suppose it would end up being a truck like those mobile cat scan lab things that carries its own power and climate which also doesn't come cheap.    I did read that they either have or are soon getting a printer on the space station.  That's kinda neat and a good application because shipping there is a little slow and expensive.   Like the article said imagine if there was such a technology on Apollo 13 they could have just printed an adapter for their air scrubber.   If they get the cookie oven thing perfected it would be just like my basement setup where I eat cookies and watch the printer doing its thing while the world goes by literally in their case.

Just don't see it being a thing. Prints aren't quick. Even our fastest printers take 10kW and 9 hours to print a full build + 30 hours cooling time. No reason to truck it around.

I have a few printers in my garage for when I need to fab something and a guide is helpful, but mainly I have a multi multi million dollar print lab at work.

Anyways if anyone needs design work or parts made for car related projects just let me know. I'd be happy to help out with whatever resources I can offer.

[MaR]

Just don't see it being a thing. Prints aren't quick. Even our fastest printers take 10kW and 9 hours to print a full build + 30 hours cooling time. No reason to truck it around.

I have a few printers in my garage for when I need to fab something and a guide is helpful, but mainly I have a multi multi million dollar print lab at work.

Anyways if anyone needs design work or parts made for car related projects just let me know. I'd be happy to help out with whatever resources I can offer.

I have a few metal projects that I may take you up on that offer. I'm assuming that you can work with .stl files or do you need the native models?

[39Flathead]

I have a few metal projects that I may take you up on that offer. I'm assuming that you can work with .stl files or do you need the native models?

Every printer can work with STL. If you want a hand doing any DFaM or optimization then I would need either a Solidworks file or STEP.

[Highwayman68]

Maybe we are not far from having a mobile service like they now do for rain gutters.   You long into a site like Rock Auto and instead of them shipping you a part a truck shows up in front of your house and spits out the parts?

Oh the possibilities of how the service will evolve is awesome, your suggestion fits right in.

[TJ Hopland]

I just started playing with Fusion360 a bit and noticed there are quite a few ways to save and export the projects.   I don't remember what the default is but I assume that is a propitiatory Autodesk Fusion format that really only works well in Fusion or maybe other Autodesk products?    All the big players have their own formats?   And I assume some sort of kind of can translate and others can't but like everything some things can be lost in translation?

STL I'm assuming is just a format that is about as basic and universal as you can get kinda like the final old school paper 'blue print'.

For those following along what we are talking about here is the designs are made in some sort of software program of which there are several major players as well as likely 100's of others.  Once you have a object designed is what I'm kind of asking about.   I think an STL is like a blue print.  Its got most of the info you need to construct the object.  You then feed that STL file into what in the hobby 3d printing game we call a slicer.   The slicer is software running on your computer that basically slices the object up and figures out how to actually print it in your particular machine.   The slicer creates a G code with is a somewhat universal thing that many CNC type of machines use.   

A G code is a fairly simple program list that just about literally says 'move this to here' 'move that to there' 'do this' which in the case of the hobby printer would be a X, Y, Z coordinate and then how much material to feed into what is basically the hot glue gun end to make it squirt out.   You can control most if not all aspects of the machine with the code which means there are specifics for each machine.  A big commercial milling machine may have many different tools available that all need a code.  Different machines will have different cooling and lubrication options that all have codes so its one of those things that is but isn't universal.   The slicer or what ever program is figuring out how to build it needs to know the specifics of the machine its designing for so that is why you rarely see designs distributed as G code.   Even if the machines are the same there still could be subtle differences that need to be taken into account so the step before G code is often very closely related and often located near the machine that is doing the work.

You can 'reverse engineer' something from Gcode as well as an STL file but the result isn't going to be as good or as fast as if you got that file from much earlier in the process.  Earlier in the process especially when you are still in the original software's domain you get a lot of aids to make things easier when dealing with complex parts like layers and assemblies.  Its pretty cool when you have a minor flaw or a very similar part when you can just go back and copy something or make a minor tweak without having to start from scratch.   

Most of the programs have libraries of common things like threads.  I would imagine most industries build their own libraries so they rarely have to start from scratch with anything.   You know that all your products have  4 wheels so you just grab those 4 wheels out of the library.   You know you need a chassis so you grab the 122" WB chassis and paste that to the wheels.  You go grab an engine and a body and an interior and you have a car darn near ready for production and you really have not had to design anything yet you were just grabbing things 'off the shelf'.   

[39Flathead]

I just started playing with Fusion360 a bit and noticed there are quite a few ways to save and export the projects.   I don't remember what the default is but I assume that is a propitiatory Autodesk Fusion format that really only works well in Fusion or maybe other Autodesk products?    All the big players have their own formats?   And I assume some sort of kind of can translate and others can't but like everything some things can be lost in translation?

STL I'm assuming is just a format that is about as basic and universal as you can get kinda like the final old school paper 'blue print'.

For those following along what we are talking about here is the designs are made in some sort of software program of which there are several major players as well as likely 100's of others.  Once you have a object designed is what I'm kind of asking about.   I think an STL is like a blue print.  Its got most of the info you need to construct the object.  You then feed that STL file into what in the hobby 3d printing game we call a slicer.   The slicer is software running on your computer that basically slices the object up and figures out how to actually print it in your particular machine.   The slicer creates a G code with is a somewhat universal thing that many CNC type of machines use.   

A G code is a fairly simple program list that just about literally says 'move this to here' 'move that to there' 'do this' which in the case of the hobby printer would be a X, Y, Z coordinate and then how much material to feed into what is basically the hot glue gun end to make it squirt out.   You can control most if not all aspects of the machine with the code which means there are specifics for each machine.  A big commercial milling machine may have many different tools available that all need a code.  Different machines will have different cooling and lubrication options that all have codes so its one of those things that is but isn't universal.   The slicer or what ever program is figuring out how to build it needs to know the specifics of the machine its designing for so that is why you rarely see designs distributed as G code.   Even if the machines are the same there still could be subtle differences that need to be taken into account so the step before G code is often very closely related and often located near the machine that is doing the work.

You can 'reverse engineer' something from Gcode as well as an STL file but the result isn't going to be as good or as fast as if you got that file from much earlier in the process.  Earlier in the process especially when you are still in the original software's domain you get a lot of aids to make things easier when dealing with complex parts like layers and assemblies.  Its pretty cool when you have a minor flaw or a very similar part when you can just go back and copy something or make a minor tweak without having to start from scratch.   

Most of the programs have libraries of common things like threads.  I would imagine most industries build their own libraries so they rarely have to start from scratch with anything.   You know that all your products have  4 wheels so you just grab those 4 wheels out of the library.   You know you need a chassis so you grab the 122" WB chassis and paste that to the wheels.  You go grab an engine and a body and an interior and you have a car darn near ready for production and you really have not had to design anything yet you were just grabbing things 'off the shelf'.   

Correct but a few things to note. Output settings into an STL are critical. I can't tell you how many of our engineers (20+ year experience guys) send me STL files that are useless as they didn't choose the proper settings for the part in the STL output menu. I reject them and they have to go back and output into STL with the proper parameters for the part.

We also have pre-processing software that slots in between STL and slicer. We mostly use proprietary slicing software most relevant to that print style but first the part will be run through a pre-processor that is capable of modifying the STL file in ways that CAD would be inefficient for and a slicer would not have the functionality to do. These software are usually $20K annually give or take, for a single seat.

Then we get into the challenges of Design for Additive Manuf. (DfAM) which is mostly what drives the salaries of additive engineers.

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

Gentlemen,

This is one of the most meaningful posts I’ve seen here in some time.  I’d like to offer a suggestion for clarity. I'm thinking of interested members who don't even know what they don't know. How does one get started and are there special skills?  Use the full names for materials and equipment and some description of the material’s property i.e.: soft or hard plastic, soft metal etc. Is there a reference source of available materials for printing? Is there a reference source for machine capabilities so that the novice can get what they think they need?

By education and experience I can design and fully detail complicated machines or structures; but my tools are a drafting board with a slide rule and calculator…. (remember those?)  I left the hands on practice of engineering before the advent of computer aided design capabilities. I do know how the 3D printing process works but hope someone would please explain how  designs/ drawings as shown above by  “MaR” are entered into the printer? If’ I’m holding a finished dimensioned drawing of a part, how do ask the printer to make one?  Is it by scanning the image or written code?

Keep goin’ guys……very educational

[39Flathead]

Gentlemen,

This is one of the most meaningful posts I’ve seen here in some time.  I’d like to offer a suggestion for clarity. I'm thinking of interested members who don't even know what they don't know. How does one get started and are there special skills?  Use the full names for materials and equipment and some description of the material’s property i.e.: soft or hard plastic, soft metal etc. Is there a reference source of available materials for printing? Is there a reference source for machine capabilities so that the novice can get what they think they need?

By education and experience I can design and fully detail complicated machines or structures; but my tools are a drafting board with a slide rule and calculator…. (remember those?)  I left the hands on practice of engineering before the advent of computer aided design capabilities. I do know how the 3D printing process works but hope someone would please explain how  designs/ drawings as shown above by  “MaR” are entered into the printer? If’ I’m holding a finished dimensioned drawing of a part, how do ask the printer to make one?  Is it by scanning the image or written code?

Keep goin’ guys……very educational

The most basic process flow is as follows:

1) Design your part. Some of my best design work has happened on a napkin at a bar after a few drinks. Or design it in your head. Or literally any drawing will do fine.
2) Design your part on the computer. If you have a CAD program (some are free, some are expensive) then go ahead and model your part up as you drew it on paper. A free CAD software would work fine here. The more expensive software, Solidworks/Creo/Catia/etc. build on that by offering advanced simulation capabilities to see how your part reacts under given stresses/fatigue/thermal/flow/etc. for a selected material.
3) Save your 3D model as normal. Then also export that file into an STL file. An STL is a Stereolithography file that is basically a 3D model without the ability to modify it or even learn much. It's basically a dumb 3D model. It cannot be modified or converted back into CAD easily.
4) Slicing. This is the intermediate step that converts your 3D model into code. The basic idea is take your part and literally turn it into layers. Your 5" tall part printed at say...50 micron layer height (each layer of print is literally 50 microns thick) and so 5" = 127,000 microns. So your slicer is literally taking your part and turning it into 2,540 layers of print. It will also create all the "tool paths" for your print head to follow.
5) Printing. Basically just export that sliced file right into the printer. Some of them this is a proprietary software that comes with your printer as a free download. Sometimes, especially on hobby level gear, you'll find they use a commonly used open source software that you select your printer on a list.

That is the most basic process flow in 3D printing, in my opinion.

Now there are various print styles:

FDM - Fused Deposition Modeling, the most basic of 3D printing. Probably what people are most familiar with. Plastic filament on a spool is pushed through a very hot nozzle onto a platform. The nozzle melts the plastic as it comes out and your print is built up layer by layer. Common materials are PLA, ABS, Nylon, PETG, PEEK, and others. This printer typically prints in a honeycomb pattern with solid exterior walls and roofs. The most advanced FDM machines can also impregnate plastic with solid carbon fiber, kevlar, or fiberglass to make them about as strong as 6061 Aluminum.

SLA - Stereolithography. A liquid resin replaces the hard plastic used above. In SLA a liquid container of resin is shot with a laser in specific paths to cure it instantly. Each layer is pathed and cured before the print moves to provide a new layer of liquid resin to be cured. This is usually a much more accurate, much smoother part than FDM and prints much faster as you only have to move a laser beam and not a whole print head. These parts will be solid all the way through. The materials can vary much more than on an FDM and won't have typical plastic names. They are typically proprietary blends of resin that may imitate other materials.

I could go into Multi-Jet Fusion, Selective Laser Sintering, Direct Metal Laser Sintering, Atomic Diffusion, Electron Beam Melting, and many other print methods but those are primarily used for advanced prototyping or very expensive production.

Your comment about scanning an image: it is possible to 3D scan a part you have a physical copy of and print that. Typically there are some intermediate steps though.

As far as special skills: getting into 3D printing as a hobbyist is very easy and cheap. You can pick up a small FDM machine for $100 on amazon and rolls of PLA are maybe $20/kg. PLA is a great material to learn on as it's very cheap, very forgiving, and compostable. Moving further into additive engineering usually will at the very least require a degree in the field and experience with designing for additive, knowing which printer to use for what part, knowing which material to use for a given need, and how to run equipment.

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

39Flathead

Thanks for your explanation. Very helpful and easily understood.

[J. Skelly]

I've been following this thread since it was started.  This would be the perfect solution for reproducing the flimsy plastic center armrest hinges used on the '67-'70 Eldorado with bench seat, but fabricated in metal instead. 

I've considered making my own out of fiberglass strand and resin using a wooden mold for each side for each piece.  I've also considered making new pieces out of metal, but it would take 3 pieces of metal welded together for each side. 

[TJ Hopland]

If you have a non computerized design I think there are services that will take it from there and get you the part in the material of your choice especially if you have a 'professional' detailed proper paper drawing.   Stained napkin may be take a little more.  How professional and the type of material is where the cost varies.   

I think you can find a person online that may help for a 6 pack and maybe even print out a plastic sample on a hobby printer to make sure the design is good.  If you then have what you think is the part you want and some digital files for said part you are in a much better position to get a professional or semi pro company to make you a part for what most would consider a reasonable cost.

For the hinge concept the way I would see that is the napkin drawing goes to the beer guy who makes a cheap plastic sample on his hobby printer then gives you the digital files.   You send those files to a machine shop who then instead of feeding the original file into the slicer for the hobby printer puts them into the software for their CNC mill.   In either the case of the CNC mill or some sort of 3d print that place could be anywhere in the world which is why just about anything is possible at a wide range of prices.

[TJ Hopland]

As for the people that are interested in getting started are you interested in watching youtube videos if some of us with at least some experience have some to recommend for beginners?    I would have to go back and look since its been a long time since I was watching the truly beginner videos.  There are several people I do watch regularly and I'm sure if I go check their back catalog I will find some good starter videos, maybe even the ones I first watched.

Also don't underestimate how strong parts made on a under $500 machine with the least expensive material can be.  No question they are not metal but they can be stronger than a lot of the cheap plastic found on most of the stuff we buy these days.   

     

[Matti R]

Doubt it. Shipping is cheap and many of the more advanced printers have very complex environmental requirements. Makes more sense to operate large print farms and spend the $10 shipping a part.

Please note there are Cadillac renovators all over the world, even here in Finland. Shipping from US is not that cheap and takes time. We have several 3D printing houses available, all we need is the 3D model library for rare spare parts. I would pay for a 3D model and get it produced locally.

[Roger Zimmermann]

39Flathead

Thanks for your explanation. Very helpful and easily understood.

Ralph, I'm in the same boat! Anyway, I still prefer to continue my scale models without that technology!

[MaR]

I can make a model of just about anything with the proper information or sample. If someone needs some help going from paper to a model, send me a message and I can take a look.

[39Flathead]

Please note there are Cadillac renovators all over the world, even here in Finland. Shipping from US is not that cheap and takes time. We have several 3D printing houses available, all we need is the 3D model library for rare spare parts. I would pay for a 3D model and get it produced locally.

Sure but that would mean having a print lab setup in Finland of which I am sure there are many. You wouldn't drive around a truck with a printer in it.

[39Flathead]

For example, I was planning on doing a twin turbo EFI build with my 346. I modeled these flanges from the gasket. Cost me maybe $20 to model it up and $20 to print a few prototypes to get my spacing correct.

[39Flathead]

If you have a non computerized design I think there are services that will take it from there and get you the part in the material of your choice especially if you have a 'professional' detailed proper paper drawing.   Stained napkin may be take a little more.  How professional and the type of material is where the cost varies.   

I think you can find a person online that may help for a 6 pack and maybe even print out a plastic sample on a hobby printer to make sure the design is good.  If you then have what you think is the part you want and some digital files for said part you are in a much better position to get a professional or semi pro company to make you a part for what most would consider a reasonable cost.

For the hinge concept the way I would see that is the napkin drawing goes to the beer guy who makes a cheap plastic sample on his hobby printer then gives you the digital files.   You send those files to a machine shop who then instead of feeding the original file into the slicer for the hobby printer puts them into the software for their CNC mill.   In either the case of the CNC mill or some sort of 3d print that place could be anywhere in the world which is why just about anything is possible at a wide range of prices.

Agreed. Would be happy to contribute to the forum with design help or printing help.