Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Hi there,

have on my 68 Eldorado my oil pan gasket leaking as well as two of the freeze plugs on the right hand of the engine block just below the headers and didn't find some useful tips regarding the replacement within my search here.

Oil pan gasket:
My 68 shop manual is telling me under chapter 6 note 127 that I have to remove the engine to replace the oil pan gasket (wow - that put me on "fully awake" this morning!!!) - here is what stated there:
"1. On 693 cars remove the engine as described in Note 140a and proceed with steps 9 and 10."  :( :( :(
"9. Remove nuts and cap screws that hold oil pan to cylinder block and lower oil pan."
"10. Remove side gaskets and rubber front and rear seals from oil pan, and discard."

It is obviously that with the right side of the final drive" on the car the oil pan can't be lowered since the axle is running direct below the pan - so for me the way with less effort to get the oil pan down and new gaskets on would be to remove "only" the right side axle.
Any suggestions to move forward without taking the engine out will be highly appreciated  ;D

Freeze plugs:
Main question is to get the right size of them - Rockauto catalog is telling me different sizes of single available freeze plugs
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bits4bytes.de%2Feldorado%2FRockautoFreezePlugs.jpg&hash=360b153a98a8a94a95010e9bfefdf98f63e50b32)

1st question is now which one is the right one for the freeze plugs below the headers?
2nd question is should I order only the two I need or should I go with a full set and change all of them to be sure having only once the effort for the next several years?

Thanks in advance for your help

Lars

On the oil pan, take a closer look.  The frame cross member also runs under the oil pan.  It makes it impossible to get to the pan bolts.  I went through that years ago. 

Hi Glen,

thanks for the heads up - will check this.
So what you are saying is that the shop manual is right and I can't avoid to take the engine out?

Regarding the freeze plugs I took a closer look on the ones installed in the Eldorado as well to the ones in my spare engine.

The Eldorado engine wears freeze plugs stamped with 1 49/64" (44,8469 mm)
The spare engine wears freeze plugs stamped with 1 3/4" (44,45 mm)

Since I prepare this replacement the clear suggestion was to use brass plugs - the available ones are
SEALED POWER 3819031 Brass Deep Cup Freeze Plug in 1.750" (44,45 mm)
DORMAN 565036 Brass Cup in 1.767" (44,88 mm)

Now I am puzzled which one I should use - any advise or am I overestimating the 4/10 mm difference of the two and it doesn't matter?

Thanks

Lars

Yes, while there are some ways (not many) to perform repairs easier than shop manual this is not one of them, the engine needs to come out.  If engine is out, now is the time to replace the timing chain and rear main seal.  The oil leak is more likely due to a rear main seal than the gasket on oil pan.  The rear main seal costs about $20 and it is a 20 minutes job if you take your time with oil pan already off (make sure you do not install backwards).  The timing chain is easy with engine out and costs about $60 for the part, plus probably another $30 in gaskets/sealer. 

When engine is out then there are all the "might as wells" to do too; clean/repaint portions of engine bay, replace brake lines, fuel lines and etc. 

This is a nice winter project.

Hey Scot,

thanks for clarifiication - yes - seems to be something for the winter  8)

What abou the freeze plugs - which ones to take?

Thanks

Lars

It's not the project, it's the "might as wells."
Good luck.
Jeff

Jeff is 100% correct on the might as well.   Hopefully you can get some driving in as is and see what else is wrong and how much you like the car.   If you like the car then its easier to spend the money doing it all right.    If it runs good just leaks a little here and there pull the engine and trans.   While its out you can do a nice clean up on the engine bay.   For the engine if you don't pull the heads that saves a bunch more might as wells.  Just getting the 'tin' covers off will get you a good look at the innards at which point you can either know you need a full rebuild or know everything looks good and some new seals, gaskets, and a timing set and you will be good.     Trans likely needs seals inside and out so good time to do those too.   Transmission is pretty much a THM400 so parts are not that expensive especially if its already out. 

As to which freeze plugs I would just go to a vendor like MTS 500cid.com.   They will have good quality stuff that will fit.    They also have a bunch of the little things you don't think of.   Things like a bolt and washer for the crank.  Its nice to have when you are trying to set timing and such.   Kit to eliminate smog pump?   Lots of goodies. 

Hi guys,

thanks for your information - found the plugs & sizes in the engine parts illustration.

Need for the 472 are
6 of 1 3/4"
2 of 1 1/4"
1 of 2"

Have for sure more questions about the stuff I could replace or like you said the "might as wells" when the engine is out.

@TJ
Curious about the bolt and washer for the crank and the kit to eliminate the smog pump.
Can you tell me more about that?

Cheers

Lars

The 472-500-425-368 family of engine didn't come with a bolt in the front of the crank like most engines did,  the crank hub was just a press fit so from they factory these just came with a cork in em.   Its just a handy thing to have when you are doing things that require slight movements of the engine.   Its a slightly odd thread so usually not something you can get at a hardware store.

Most years of the engines came with a smog pump.  Presumably to make it difficult to remove they set up the belts so if you removed the smog pump you also lost the alternator and water pump.   The alternator ran off just the water pump.   They did this by changing the spacing at the crank pulley.   The smog cars the grooves on the crank pulley were all pretty close.   On the non smog cars they spaced out that front groove to align with the alternator so a belt would catch the water pump - crank - alternator.    70 was a non smog year.   I have also seen 75's and 78's.   If you can find one of those cars in a junkyard you can use the pulleys but that is easier said than done these days.   The additional twist in this puzzle is 68-74 the AC/PS was a dual belt.   74-79 they switched to a wider single groove setup to give more clearance for the larger cap HEI distributor.    You want to get things as a set, the crank pulley,  water pump pulley, and timing mark.   500cid makes and sells a kit that also includes a belt and plugs for the heads.   Its not super cheap but if you want to clean things up its an easy way to do it.   The pulleys are billet aluminum but have read they can be painted and then they look stock if that is your thing.


There will likely be lots of chunks of cam sprocket and valve guide seals in the oil pan and pickup tube.   Valve guide seals can be replaced without removing the heads.

Hi TJ,

Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 05, 2016, 10:59:18 AM
The 472-500-425-368 family of engine didn't come with a bolt in the front of the crank like most engines did,  the crank hub was just a press fit so from they factory these just came with a cork in em.   Its just a handy thing to have when you are doing things that require slight movements of the engine.   Its a slightly odd thread so usually not something you can get at a hardware store.

Is it this one http://www.500cid.com/_p/prd1/3520236441/product/crankshaft-bolt-kit (http://www.500cid.com/_p/prd1/3520236441/product/crankshaft-bolt-kit)?
9/16 SAE bolt 2" long?
Can't the little adjustments for timing be done with turning the flywheel?

Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 05, 2016, 10:59:18 AMMost years of the engines came with a smog pump.  Presumably to make it difficult to remove they set up the belts so if you removed the smog pump you also lost the alternator and water pump.

Will check on car - if there is all OK with the smog pump no action needed - correct?

Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 05, 2016, 10:59:18 AM
There will likely be lots of chunks of cam sprocket and valve guide seals in the oil pan and pickup tube.   Valve guide seals can be replaced without removing the heads.

What do you mean by chunks of cam sprocket? Are there parts I could change or even have to change if I find chunks in there?

Bought already the timing chain, new FlowKooler Hi Flow water pump and a full engine gasket set (https://www.summitracing.com/dom/parts/fel-fs8255pt (https://www.summitracing.com/dom/parts/fel-fs8255pt)) which includes the valve stem seals as well as the rear main seal.

You mentioned if I don't pull the heads that saves a bunch more "might as wells" - what could be the mights pulling the heads or the other way around what parts should I include in my order when I plan to pull the heads - the head gaskets are in the set above?
Plan to buy as well this stainless engine hex bolt kit valve stem seals (http://valve%20stem%20seals) but it doesn't include the bolts for the heads.

The transmission is a TH425  - are there some full gasket set existing outside there including the mentioned inside and outside gaskets?

Your thoughts/advise is highly appreciated.

Thanks and sorry for all that questions - its the first engine overhaul for me - so I am pretty excited  ;D

Cheers

Lars

Yes you can move the engine using methods like the flywheel its just less convenient than using the bolt up front.   I don't think I would special order just the bolt but if I was ordering other things from them I would throw one of those in with everything else. 

If your smog pump is working fine or you need it to pass inspections then all you need to do is make sure its in good working order.  What usually kills them is the check valve going bad and letting exhaust flow into the valve and pump.   The exhaust kills the bearings which then kills the pump which then breaks the belt leaving you with no water pump, fan, or alternator.   Pumps still seem to be available but the diverter valve is apparently pretty hard to find.  The check valve is somewhat universal so those should not be hard to find.   The valve on these engines is the nut looking fitting on the crossover tube between the heads that has the hose nipple on it.   To test it simply remove the hose and start the engine.    If you feel exhaust coming out the valve its shot.   You should also feel air coming out the hose end all times except deceleration.   It can be hard to test so the easiest way is just to get a hand vacuum pump and operate the valve that way.   High vacuum (like from closing the throttle) operates the valve which then diverts the air out a port on the valve assembly instead of into the heads.   If this does not work you tend to get popping in the exhaust and sometimes it can be significant.    IF you don't get air out the tube pump is shot so I would be concerned about the bearings.   

The original cam sprocket was covered in a plastic material that with age tended to crack and flake off and end up in the oil pan.  Not much seems to come out with oil changes, most of it seems to end up stuck in the screen of the oil pickup tube.   A part of the valve guide seals was similar material and ends up in the same place. 

One gasket that is not included in the full set is the intake gasket / valley pan.   Be sure to order one of those.     

Cloyes is the only brand of timing chain that still has a good reputation.  Lots of stories of other brands having issues with the crank sprocket shattering upon installation or shortly after.   

As far as I know Melling is the only company making new oil pumps.   Originals were aluminum so often need to be replaced.   For the longest time at least half of the Melling oil pumps had a rough spot in the casting that was not machined correctly and would cause the bypass valves to stick open causing complete loss of oil pressure.   I also had one where the idler gear sized.   Maybe they have corrected this now?   Maybe someone else makes them too?   To be safe you want to check and correct this issue yourself or buy from a vendor like 500 cid that checks and corrects this issue before they ship em.     There are 2 different pumps the difference is the angle of the oil filter.  The 472/500 one points it away from the crank the 425/368 angles to the crank.   

I bought a bolt kit and don't like it.  They don't stay tight.   They were regular looking bolts with regular flat washers.   I think what you want is more like the originals where the washer is sort of built into the bolt head. 

On the transmission what I mean by inside gaskets is things like the seals on pistons and servos.  If they are original there is no way they are working as good as they should or could be.   They won't be exerting as much pressure as they should be on the clutches and or bands which will mean there will be some slipping.  It may not be noticeable at first but slipping causes heat and wear which causes more heat and wear which is where a rebuild can get expensive.   The soft parts kit for this or any transmission is not very expensive, its when you damage hard parts that it can get expensive.    The trans and engine can come out separately but its a lot of work either way so you don't want to have to do it very many times.         

Hi TJ,

glad that I made no miskate on the timing chain - odered this Cloyes https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-1139 (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-1139).

Will check the smog pump - thanks a lot for the instructions

The intake gasket is now in the shopping cart  ;)

Will watch out for the bolt kit - if I dont find anything can I reuse the original bolts tighten them along their specified torques?

Is this the right gasket kit you mentioned https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-1139 (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-1139) - it includes no filter what I can see, but that can be ordered seperately.
Or should I go with the one including all rebuild parts like this http://www.oregonperformancetransmission.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=OPT-TH425-RB (http://www.oregonperformancetransmission.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=OPT-TH425-RB)?

What about taking the heads off - is there something on top of the head gaskets which I should take in consideration?

Guess cour comment on taking the enigne & trans out seperately points to getting them out in one piece and taking them apart more relaxed outside the car - correct?

Thanks

Lars

Any update here?

Thanks

Lars

Hello Lars,

When removing any original bolts, use a torque wrench so that you can make note of the torque required to remove the bolts.  If the removal torque is close to the specified installation torque, it is likely that the bolts have not exceeded their yield point.  If the bolts show no signs of corrosion, deformation, or thread distortion, you should be able to reuse the original bolts.  Generally, if a flange-headed bolt was used, and it needs to be replaced, a flange-headed replacement bolt should be your first choice.  I don't think stainless steel bolts are any advantage in most engine rebuilds.  Be sure to clean the threaded holes before reinstalling any bolts and verify whether the bolts should be installed dry, with lubrication, or with sealer or anti-seize.

Christopher Winter

Thanks - need now only some advise about the gasket kit and if the engine/trans/final drive should come as a whole or in separate out of the engine bay.
Think it would be easier to take them apart from each other when then are out of the car to overhaul them.

Cheers

Lars

Hi folks,

putting my aged thread byk to live since I have started 2 days ago to get the engine and tranny pulled on my 68 Eldorado.

Getting everything out of the way I am still not sure if I can pull the engine/tranny assembly together at once or I have to go the route to first pull the engine and afterwards the tranny seperately.

Have already taken the power steering pump and the AC compressor out of the way as well as the disassembled the radiator fan, AIR pump and power generator.
Radiator is still in the car as well as the water pump.

Next action will be to get the drive axles disconnected and then I would be able to pull - but need advise here what to pull - engine&tranny at once or as seperate units in 2 pulls?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Cheers

Lars

There is more than one way to skin a cat, but my
methods can be done by one person with minimal
risk of colateral damage. 

I take the car somewhere with a low ceiling,
raise the hood, and connect it at several points
to hanging chains.  Now move the car to the main
work area, support the final drive with a chain,
disconnect the trans from the engine (mostly from
below), and yank the engine.  At this point a
chain could easily yank the trans and final drive
after dis connecting shafts, or just leave them. 
good luck, Bruce Roe

I guess supporting the final drive with a chain is similar to get a jack underneath and support it - right?
Does your method mean that getting the engine and the tranny in one piece out is not possible? 

Pulling the whole thing works in the yard, but
that is a lot of weight swinging around, and the
chances of damaging something else in that close
area is high.  I am patient, careful, and do not
mind getting under the car.

I do not use jacks under the car, because then it
cannot be moved, and it is tough to get under it. 
Bruce Roe

QuoteI guess supporting the final drive with a chain is similar to get a jack underneath and support it - right?

Supporting the final drive with a chain is not the same as using a jack.  Remember that when you start lifting the engine, you are taking weight off of the suspension, so the car will rise as the weight of the engine is lifted.  If you try to support the final drive with a jack, as the weight of the engine is lifted, the jack will not be supporting anything since it's base is on the floor.

Daryl Chesterman

Quote from: savemy67 on September 08, 2016, 08:48:43 PMWhen removing any original bolts, use a torque wrench so that you can make note of the torque required to remove the bolts.  If the removal torque is close to the specified installation torque, it is likely that the bolts have not exceeded their yield point.

Christopher, usually the torque needed to unscrew a bolt is much higher than its specified torque. Your suggestion would be Ok if the bolt(s) were just installed. 

Thanks for all hints - got the engine/tranny today out in one piece, but it was more than tight and the whole unit had to be tilted to the back (tranny down - engine up) to make it happen.

IMG_1743.jpg
IMG_1748.jpg 
IMG_1750.jpg
IMG_1753.jpg
IMG_1748.jpg
IMG_1755.jpg
IMG_1756.jpg
IMG_1757.jpg
IMG_1762.jpg       

And here the separated units

IMG_1767.jpg
IMG_1769.jpg 

Did a compression test and the results are 4 pistons at 125psi, 3 at 130psi and one at 165psi - guess I have to do some work on the heads/pistons ???

Now that the trans is out, make sure the big
chain cover on the back is not leaking.  The
cork gasket has inadequate clamping area at the
bottom (just where it needs it).  The motorhome
people just glue the cover on, like they started
doing with valve covers about 1977. 

They said use one tube of VALCO, it worked for
me.  Trans out, going to refresh the gaskets
and seals?  Bruce Roe

Before you tear too deep I would do a leak down test to see if you can narrow down where the lower compression ones may be going.  Would be nice to know if you need to really look close at valves or if you may be getting into the block.

Are you fairly sure your testing process was as consistent as possible?  You numbers are not that far off so some variable in your testing could explain some of em.


And I have to add something that you will be hearing a lot:

While you are that far in you might as well...............................   

Have no leak down test equipment available.

Did the test with a friend and we went through the 8 cylinders twice to check - same results on both runs - so I guess there is no way not to open the heads and/or replace the piston rings - thoughts?

You don't really need an official leak down tool set.  Really all you need is a way to get compressed air into a cylinder.  Sometimes the hose off a compression tester can be used,  it depends on the tester and they usually have a check valve/core in em so you have to remove that.

Basically you turn the engine so the piston is down and valves are closed. You do want a pressure regulator to control how much pressure you are putting in.  Sometimes the valve timing won't have the valves fully closed at the bottom of the stroke so you have to move it a bit at which point the air pressure will try and push the piston down. 

Put some air in and listen for where its leaking out.  If its coming out the exhaust its an exhaust valve.  If its the intake its an intake valve.  Crankcase its rings.  A snoop around with a borescope would not hurt either.  You can get pretty decent ones these days pretty cheap.  Way cheaper than what you could end up spending on a partial or full rebuild.   

Thanks for the tips TJ,

Plan on getting the heads off and lap the valves and get them new valve stem seals as well as the pistons new rings. Have the bearings for the cam shaft ready as well if needed as well as a ton of seals and gaskets I bought in advance. Time chain gets new as well.

Cheers

Lars

Ahh so you are basically planning a rebuild.   I thought you were hoping to not go that far.

As you stated - while the engine is out ...🤣

But would not call it a full rebuild - will fix stuff I can do easily w/o the need of a shop to mill something - but I don't know yet how the engine looks inside.

 

New FlowKooler Hi-Flow Mechanical Water Pump is waiting as well to get into the game 🤣
And have bought at OregonPerformance a TH425 rebuild kit - but now first gets the engine some love and attention🤪

Take a close look at the shift shaft seal in the trans.  Those often leak and its just an O ring as far as I know, not a lip seal that was more common on other models.

Weld some 1/4-20 nuts on the inside of the timing cover for the small water pump bolts.  Those are easy to strip and often strip and cause leaks.  Plenty of clearance in there and no one will ever see it with the engine assembled.

Order a nut and washer for the crank.  Handy to have when working and setting things up.

Quote from: bcroe on March 14, 2023, 06:15:56 PMNow that the trans is out, make sure the big
chain cover on the back is not leaking.  The
cork gasket has inadequate clamping area at the
bottom (just where it needs it).  The motorhome
people just glue the cover on, like they started
doing with valve covers about 1977. 

They said use one tube of VALCO, it worked for
me.  Trans out, going to refresh the gaskets
and seals?  Bruce Roe

Hi Bruce,

thanks for that important hint - hope the Elring Dirko HT works as well - used this on a bunch of other cars directly on motor block areas and works like a charm at higher temps - so I guess it will work on the back tranny cover as well since this gets not that hot.

Cheers

Lars

Lapping valves will probably be a waste of time.  This was usually done after grinding the valves and seats.  If the motor has many miles on it, the seats will have worn and are too wide for effective sealing and heat transfer.  Since you have the heads off I would take them to a machine shop and have them structually checked for cracks, guide wear and seat condition.  It would be smart to have hardened seats installed at this time.  Unless you are adding a lead additive to the fuel, the original seats will wear rapidly.  The tetra-ethyl lead that was added to regular and premium fuels in '68 raised the octane of the fuel, but more importantly it provided lubrication to the valve seats to prevent the exhaust valves from eroding the seats.  Hardened exhaust seats, a 3 angle valve job, and refreshed guides if needed will keep her running great for a long time.  Check the tips of the rocker arms and the pivots, if they are worn, they need replaced.  Always keep the OE push rod, rocker arm, and rocker pivot together and put back in the same location from which they were removed.  Cadillac used different lenght push rods to adjust the lifter plunger depth for quiet operation. 

The proper way to do a leakage test is to bring the piston to TDC compression. Put air into the cyl. air pressure regulated to about 70 psi.  Without a regular leakage tester, you will only hear or feel where there is air flow.  The problem is that there is always leakage in a sealed engine around the rings.  The leakage tester will tell you the percentage that is leaking.  A well sealed engine will leak 2-5%, normal is as high as 15-20% depending on mileage. Anything over 20% is an issue.

Another side note, is your oil.  In 1968 engine oils had zinc as an additive to prevent lifter and camshaft failures.  Zinc is detrimental to catalytic converters and was removed from oils in the '70's.  You would be smart to add a zinc additive to the oil at each change.  You can get it at most parts stores, Summit Racing, and Jeg's.  I still have some "old oil" that I am using up in my '79 El Dorado.  Today's oil are much better, so use them with a zinc additive and your valve train will love it.

Quote from: Chopper1942 on March 16, 2023, 11:47:08 AMIf the motor has many miles on it,...

What is the definition of many miles? >100k?

Just curious if anyone has ever seen major seat issues on one of these engines?  I never have.  I heard the reason was they were high nickel castings so it just wasn't a problem.  Cadillac could afford to spend an extra $1 per casting.  The Fords and Chevs of the world couldn't do that so their castings were not as good till they had to be. It also helps that Cads were not typically revved as high or pushed as hard as some others.

If there are seat issues ya you have to deal with them but I don't think I would have seats put in unless there was major issues that don't come out with a standard clean up.

Before I start disassembling the block to overhaul it I want to flush the coolant channels inside the block - where should I best connect my garden hose to flush the whole system? Remember I had to take the water pump already off - that said the coolant circuit is for sure interrupted and therefore I maybe have to connect my garden hose to more than one hole?

Re: the freeze plugs. My local independent auto store has a huge Dorman supply and he typically sells the the plugs .015 (1/64") oversize for example; the 9/16 opening for A.I.R. in the heads would take a 37/64 plug.
Had to drive them in.

Quote from: TJ Hopland on March 15, 2023, 01:24:03 PMWeld some 1/4-20 nuts on the inside of the timing cover for the small water pump bolts.  Those are easy to strip and often strip and cause leaks.  Plenty of clearance in there and no one will ever see it with the engine assembled.

TJ - have the water pump section of the 68 shop manual not in front of me but know from disassembling it that it had 3(?) different bolt sizes to bolt the water pump to the block/timing cover.Which ones are we talking about to get the nut(s) welded on the inside of the cover? Since the ones on the outer ring bolt into the block I guess it are the ones I marked in green? Are they all 1/4-20?

Next question I couldn't ask from the far (this week not in front of the manual nor the engine) what the part is I marked in red - seems to be like a ventilation pipe between the two heads???
How do I get that thing off w/o breaking it?

2023-03-23_09h30_40.jpg

Thanks!

The pipe in red is for the AIR (Air injection reactor system).

Hi Roger,

thanks for clarification - does that just gets off loosening the bolts to the headers?

At what I can read in the shop manual, yes. Be careful about the seal; I don't know if they can be reused.

The sealing rings for the Cross-over piping is what I believe to be a piece of Asbestos lagging.

When I removed the ones from my '500, the sealing rings were good, but were only going to be re-used to seal the plug.   I couldn't get the correct size Welsh Plugs when I did the job.

The retaining clip is seen in your photo with the single bolt holding it in place, over the top of the AIR Pump Bracket, and I cannot remember what was holding the other side in.

I did some deconstruction to the crossover piece to retain the ends as plugs and they just sit there.   I replaced the Crossover as I went to HEI Ignition, and the distributor would not fit with the earlier type crossover.

Bruce. >:D

On the water pump question yes its the 1/4-20 bolts that only thread into the 'tin' cover that are easy to strip.  You thread a spare bolt into the cover then thread the nut onto that bolt.  This aligns the existing threads to the nuts threads and holds it in place for welding.

On the AIR crossover was it a nickel or dime that someone figured out fits as a plug?

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 23, 2023, 07:32:54 AMThe sealing rings for the Cross-over piping is what I believe to be a piece of Asbestos lagging.

Thanks Bruce - will have a closer look at the weekend and will see if I can reuse them or rebuilt out of some temp resistant paper pressed seal material if not reusable.

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 23, 2023, 07:32:54 AMI did some deconstruction to the crossover piece to retain the ends as plugs and they just sit there.  I replaced the Crossover as I went to HEI Ignition, and the distributor would not fit with the earlier type crossover.

Puzzled here - that means the crossover with that valve connecting to the air pump is not needed or did you connect only the one side to the air pump? Or did you delete the air pump on yours?

Quote from: TJ Hopland on March 23, 2023, 02:04:01 PMOn the water pump question yes its the 1/4-20 bolts that only thread into the 'tin' cover that are easy to strip. 

Thanks TJ - will check what I spare nuts I have at home since the SAE sizes are not common in Germany - worst case I have to order them.

Quote from: IcebearLars on March 24, 2023, 02:30:45 AMThanks TJ - will check what I spare nuts I have at home since the SAE sizes are not common in Germany - worst case I have to order them.

Make sure you have some extra bolts to use to align and hold the nuts for welding.  You don't want to damage the originals with weld spatter. If you are ordering some get cheap ones.   

Quote from: IcebearLars on March 16, 2023, 04:51:26 AM..trans chain cover on the back...

Hijacking the thread... i happen to be working in parallel with Lars on my 1975.  I know my tranny shaft seal is leaking and will do the o ring or shaft seal bushing before assembly. Regarding the cork seal on the chain cover.. im not sure its leaking.. but the consensus is now is the time to take it off and redo without gasket using the sealant?  Or if it is not broke...???

(https://bshifter.blob.core.windows.net/uploads/itsout12_031830213.jpg)

Can you tell if its been done before?  I would be looking real close at what ever gasket or sealer was used to look for any signs of issues.  Its possible someone has done it more recently using materials that will still hold up and in that case if there are no signs of an issue I may be tempted to leave it.  I have run into stuff like that where someone pretty much glued it and I did so much damage trying to get it apart to fix a problem that didn't exist that it ended up leaking. 

Quote from: scottsdaleaz on March 24, 2023, 05:45:19 PMHijacking the thread... i happen to be working in parallel with Lars on my 1975.  I know my tranny shaft seal is leaking and will do the o ring or shaft seal bushing before assembly. Regarding the cork seal on the chain cover.. im not sure its leaking.. but the consensus is now is the time to take it off and redo without gasket using the sealant?  Or if it is not broke...???

My chain cover was leaking, and as I couldn't access a replacement cork gasket, I searched the sealing world, and came up with Loctite 5900.   This sealant is compatible with Oils, including Automatic Transmission Fluid and is widely used in the Mining and Manufacturing industry.

Used is to replace the cork in my '72 Eldo, and it hasn't leaked since.

The secret is to clean both surfaces with a good cleaner like Brakleen, which leaves no residue, after you have made sure that the tin flange is straight and flat.

Carefully run a bead of Loctite 5900 on one surface, (Don't go overboard) and bring the flanges together.   (To aid alignment, I use a couple of long threads, with no head as alignment pins) and install bolts.   Do Not Overtighten.

Bruce. >:D 

Hi folks,

some impressions of the weekend where I disassebled the heads and the oil pan to get into that bugger - let me read what you see on the pics - everything from pretty normal to take care/has to be overhauled etc. are welcome

Valve covers off

IMG_4797.jpg

IMG_4803.jpg

Intake Manifold off

IMG_4804.jpg

IMG_4805.jpg

IMG_4806.jpg

IMG_4810.jpg   

Timing Chain (new steel one is ready to install)

IMG_4813.jpg

IMG_4814.jpg

IMG_4815.jpg 

Oil pan off

IMG_4818.jpg
 

What do you think about the shape of the front motor mount - can that be reused or has it to be revulcanized in the US?
If so which service/company should I use?
Read somewhere that they need the core and it takes up to 3 months - if I have to to this I rather ship it asap to get it back in time not holding up the reassembling of the engine/tranny.

The two tranny mounts at the back of the tranny look flawless - guess the constant oil penetration of the motor mount brought it to the current state.


IMG_4826.jpg

IMG_4827.jpg 

IMG_4828.jpg

IMG_4829.jpg
 

Next up is getting the heads disassembled (valves and springs off) and the pistons out of that bugger  - cleaning everything and getting the valves inspected/grinded and get them new valve stem seals, inspecting the pistons/bores, cleaning them and changing the piston rings.

One thing which broke during the disassembly was that AIR connection pipe on one side - how should I tackle that to get it in working order again?
One side came right off but the other I was not able to get out and the part in the head ripped off the rest - here I need urgent advise what to follow up

If I can delete this connection I found the place where the "plug solution with a dime" was mentioned - but later in that write up it was mentioned that two 11/16" freeze plugs will work the same way.

IMG_4790.jpg

IMG_4791.jpg

IMG_4796.jpg   

And before I forget - the spring of the oil pump is what I can see based on the specs in the shop manual way to short (think it has shortened over time).

The spec says it should be uncompressed between 2.77" (70,36mm) and 2.89" (73,41mm)
Mine has 63mm with is 7mm short of the lower limit in the shop manual.

Guess I will right away order a full overhaul set or just a new spring since the rest of the oil pump especially the gears look alright to me.

Can someone advise on where to buy the single spring for the oil pump?

You are lucky to catch the Cam Gear before it completely destroyed itself.   Wouldn't have been too long before all the Nylon would have come away from the teeth.

The Engine Mount exchange doesn't take that long.   I had one done some months ago, and it was something like a week exchange.   It took the longest to get a core to them (Steele Rubber) as having to send mine would have meant that my car would have been off the road for longer.   In your case, you could just send yours, and by the time the reconditioned one comes back, you will still be working on your engine.

If you don't need the AIR system, I would be removing it completely, and plugging up the holes in the heads.

Someone may have a new Spring for your Oil Pump.

My eyes may be deceiving me, but the end of the Rocker Arm pivot in the picture of the end of the head with the broken pipe seems to not be in alignment.

Bruce. >:D

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 27, 2023, 06:28:35 AM... In your case, you could just send yours, and by the time the reconditioned one comes back, you will still be working on your engine.

Bruce - spot on - that's what I thought as well - should be back while I am still fighting the engine and if done with that the tranny - so will contact them right away and have some time left to get it back in time  :P

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 27, 2023, 06:28:35 AM... If you don't need the AIR system, I would be removing it completely, and plugging up the holes in the heads.

What about the pump itself - does it hurt if she is still sitting in the usual spot not connected to anything since I don't want to get down in that AIR pump deletion/deletion kit/70s pulley rabbit hole?
Let it sit there and turn idle will at least keep the routing for the belts as they are today.

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 27, 2023, 06:28:35 AMMy eyes may be deceiving me, but the end of the Rocker Arm pivot in the picture of the end of the head with the broken pipe seems to not be in alignment.

I thought the same when I disassembled the rocker arm assemblies but it looks like they do what they have to do. But thanks for calling that out - will keep it in mind while assembling and check on any wear of the rocker arm supports and rocker arms the time being.

For about two years, I removed the vanes from the AIR pump installed in my '72 de Ville and I'm using it as necessary pulley. It's relatively easy to do; I did a search in Google like "how to render the AIR pump inoperative" and I found a small video explaining the various steps do do it.

Have searched in several terms but was not able to find anything about cleaning out the AIR pump and use it just as an idler pulley.

Maybe I have overseen something but why can't I just get a shorter belt around the remaining pulleys in the route of the belt including the AIR pump like in the pic below - is it because this shorter belt can't be tensioned since the tension mechanism is with the AIR pump bracket?

2023-03-28_07h42_59.jpg

Have a look here: http://www.broachbuster.com/id50.htm
Sometimes it's not easy to find some topics!

Thanks Roger - thought that can be done w/o braking anything (and get it together if needed again). Kind of hesitant to do that with a fully functional and running part - what happens if I just let it turn idle as it is with just the belt connected but the two tubes marked disconnected, eliminate the tee at the back of the carb plus plug the openings in the heads?

IMG_4832a.jpg

If I do so do I have to close some openings that no debris is getting into it and seizes it up?
Would want to keep the pump in a functional state until I get an idler pulley solution instead.
Have not looked in detail into the bracket needed for a "own deletion kit solution" but AFAIK the available deletion kits has risen from 250 to 400dish bucks (which is insane) - for that money I can get a aluminum bracket assembly with some bearings and the original pulley on top done from a local machine shop.

Therefore my question about running it just idle w/o breaking the inside contents of the pump.

UPDATE
Never mind - sometimes one just have to have luck in his live - checked the pics of the spare engine I bought years ago and it wears a smog pump - will check if that turns and decide then which one get slaughtered  :P  :P  :P

20180614_154629.jpg

Well, I did not hesitate a long time to render my AIR pump inoperative. That system is crap anyway: with about 20K miles, the diverter valve was defective. The guy who did some work on the car before it was shipped to Switzerland organized another diverter valve from a guy who is restoring them. It was defective too. Brian (the man who prepared my car) told the supplier about the failure just to hear that the diverters he is repairing are set to expel the air only in the atmosphere and no more into the exhaust system!  I also disabled the vacuum signal to the pump (I don't know is you have it too), plugged the rubber hose to avoid exhaust gases into the pump as they would destroy the bearings and I'm happy!
By the way, in 1980 I bought a new 1980 Olds Cutlass. One of the first things I did was to remove the AIR pump and all the hoses and tubes, installed a shorter belt (even if the car was still covered by the warranty) and never looked back.
At the end, it's your car, you have to decide yourself what you want to do...

Updated post #60  8)

And maybe you can rescue the cross tube too!
About the questions you had: to respond correctly, I should have a deep look into the shop manual. without that deep look,  I would just plug the vacuum hose, plug the heads and put a grille at the outlet of the pump. If you plug it completely, you will get a problem because the pump will continue to do its job: pump air.

Got you - unfortunately on the spare engine the cross tube was rotted even more so both sides gave up while trying to get them out of the holes.

Have already 10 of these bad guys in my cart at Rockauto and will change the rear ones as well as plugging the front in each head:
Expansion/Freeze Plugs 45/64" (https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=12886&jsn=13421)

Got the information from this YouTube Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfLHH84hdOE)

The trouble with just removing the AIR pump is that the Alternator Belt does not align with the Water Pump and Crankshaft pulley grooves.

GM did this so people couldn't easily bypass the AIR system.

When I removed mine, I simply moved the Alternator rearwards to a position where the Pulley was in alignment.

I will post my pictures tomorrow.

Bruce.   >:D

That is a smart way to get the alternator in line with the water pump/crankshaft pulley - guess your belt is then running like this

Cadillac472beltsAlternatorSatBack.jpg

Is the driven circumstance/surface the belt approaches the water pump pulley enough to turn it always w/o slipping? Looks like it is (only) about 1/3 of the circumstance the belt is in contact with the pulley? On the second view the original belt setup is not approaching that much more surface at the water pump pulley - so I guess that's still enough not to slip?

And how did you manage to sat the alternator back - some distance stands or thicker washers?
Looking forward for your pics man!

AND - if you have the chance to tell which belt (brand and length) you have used

There is not a ton of space behind the alternator in my case - hope that can work getting it back enough :-\

20180614_154629.jpg

  Hey Lars,

  The nice thing about the 1970 pulley setup is that your alternator remains in the same location. The water pump pulley is shaped so that it runs in the same plane as the alternator does, thus eliminating the smog pump and allowing the belt to run on the crank, water pump, and alternator. But you still have to use the 70 crank pulley for this to work. It has no groove where the original smog belt went, but does have one that lines up with the alternator.
Hope you can locate these as it makes life much easier. No need to fight with that smog pump and related items.

  Rick

P.S. when you are looking for these two pulleys, the easiest way to identify them is the shape. The water pump pulley appears almost flat, and the crank pulley still has 3 belt grooves, but there's a gap between the front one for the alternator and the other two for the A/C and P/S belts.
Hope this helps.

Hi Rick,

thanks for the clarification, but for me out of Germany its very cumbersome to collect this kind of special parts in the US - not that I am not often enough in the US for business or can't find offered parts which probably are what they are offered (the pulleys of a '70 Caddy), but more to have the hassle with letting them ship here before I know they are the right parts - and vice versa - if they are not the right ones having to fight with the seller about that on a distance.
Hope that makes sense.

The longer I look on the picture in post #66 the more it gets clear that the easiest option would be to bring the crankshaft pulley currently engages with the smog pump and water pump further out to get in line with the current water pump & alternator pulley.
If I recall it right the crankshaft pulley is 2fold - the part for engaging with the AC &steering pump and the part for the smog & water pump.
What do guys think about a spacer made of aluminum with a groove at the back to get centered with the lip on the crankshaft hub and have the same lip on the top to get the (then further out) crankshaft pulley centered as well?
Would just need to have longer bolts to attach everything together to the crankshaft hub again.

Something like that:
2023-03-28_16h53_33.jpg
2023-03-28_16h53_46.jpg 

  I would have to look again at a 69 crank pulley, but I'm pretty sure that it's all welded together, making it hard to modify and move the smog pump groove forward to align with the alternator.
It's possible to still use the 69 water pump pulley since it has two grooves, you just won't need the rear groove anymore. That just leaves the crank pulley. You can try to find the right one for a 70, or attempt to modify what you have.
But modifying is risky, you'll have to balance it to avoid any vibration, and it would have to be aligned exactly to prevent belt loss at higher speeds. Just things to consider.

Rick

  P.S. Lars, I just noticed that your car is a 68. Is it a California car? I don't remember clearly now, but my brother had a 68coupe and I thought that it did not have a smog pump.
 If memory serves, the federal vehicles with a pump started in 69. Then 70 didn't require one, 71 and 72 did. And I don't remember what the rest had. I think either 73 or 74 may not have had one, but it's been too long since I have even thought about it now.

Quote from: Cadman-iac on March 28, 2023, 09:51:48 AM...
P.S. when you are looking for these two pulleys, the easiest way to identify them is the shape. The water pump pulley appears almost flat, and the crank pulley still has 3 belt grooves, but there's a gap between the front one for the alternator and the other two for the A/C and P/S belts.
Hope this helps.

Searched for what you are describing here and found something to compare the two - and of course you are right that the crank pulley is in one peace - hats down man!
So I have to forget about my idea with the spacer.

Found the pics on CJ Auto Parts (and therefore just mentioning it since I am not sure running in trouble here posting that pics here) and was based on this detailed pics thankfully now able to get behind the secret of the different pulleys - AND - yes the 70 crank shaft pulley would make my day and bring the crank belt forward to the belt level which the alternator and my current water pump belt are running - AND - it will cost me an arm and a leg - currently out of stock - lol!

Bought the car in California but not sure if it was running before that there - but I am pretty sure that California had higher restriction already at that time - haha!

Quote from: IcebearLars on March 28, 2023, 12:54:55 PMBought the car in California but not sure if it was running before that there - but I am pretty sure that California had higher restriction already at that time - haha!

  If it was in California, it most likely would have been equipped with the California emissions.
The easiest way to know for sure is to look at the tune up and emissions sticker if it's still on the car. I think they were putting those on cars that year, but not positive.
  California started emissions controls sometime in the early 60's I believe. The first thing they required was a PCV system instead of the road draft tube.

Quote from: IcebearLars on March 28, 2023, 12:52:01 PMSearched for what you are describing here and found something to compare the two - and of course you are right that the crank pulley is in one peace - hats down man!
So I have to forget about my idea with the spacer.

Found the pics on CJ Auto Parts (and therefore just mentioning it since I am not sure running in trouble here posting that pics here) and was based on this detailed pics thankfully now able to get behind the secret of the different pulleys - AND - yes the 70 crank shaft pulley would make my day and bring the crank belt forward to the belt level which the alternator and my current water pump belt are running - AND - it will cost me an arm and a leg - currently out of stock - lol!

  Maybe someone who lives in a larger city such as Phoenix or Las Vegas would have a look through their local salvage yards for one. I've already gone through the only yard near me and couldn't find any. It seems they had crushed all the older stuff years ago, so what qualifies as old in there now is anything from 1995 or newer.
I only had one because I parted out a 70 coupe when I had a 69 ragtop years ago. But I'm using it on my 56 when I get the 472 in it.
  I know there were  2 years, and I thought at least 1 more, that did not use the smog pump. So there's got to be a few left out there someplace.
 I remember looking at the repair manuals at compression ratios and thinking that each time they dropped the compression, they also dropped the pump for the first year, because it met emissions at the time, then the following year they had to add the pump again to meet emissions. But that's just my theory on it, I don't have any proof.

" --- is it because this shorter belt can't be tensioned since the tension mechanism is with the AIR pump bracket?"
Yes.

Another question - what material is the crank pulley made of?
Steel?
Can it be welded if I separate the front wheel with an lathe? Since I have a spare "non '70 w/ smog pump" pulley I am thinking of give it a try to make my own '70 pulley with separating and welding it together again with a spacer between the middle and front wheel (knowing that this has to be a precise, plain and absolutely centered surgery)

Regarding the chain cover, the problem is less
than adequate area to hold a gasket at the
bottom, between the chain mount casting and
bottom pan.  Just how they got the factory
gasket to work (for a while) I do not know,
probably glued it.  My advice, if there is
a gasket there, clean it out and glue the
cover directly, while you can.  Already
glued, no leak, leave it. 

Nice example of a timing chain set about to
turn to dust.  Bruce Roe

And need your help with the oil pump spring - had contact with Melling asking for the single spring since I don't need the full oil pump overhaul kit - anser was that the spring is only available in that kit and not sold separately 🤬

So what spring can I use there - if somebody has an idea I would appreciate.

Quote from: bcroe on March 30, 2023, 09:26:26 AMRegarding the chain cover, the problem is less
than adequate area to hold a gasket at the
bottom, between the chain mount casting and
bottom pan.  Just how they got the factory
gasket to work (for a while) I do not know,
probably glued it.  My advice, if there is
a gasket there, clean it out and glue the
cover directly, while you can.  Already
glued, no leak, leave it. 
...

Guess you are referring to the tranny chain cover - will have a closer look on that when the tranny moves in the row of planned work to do - currently the engine is more than full in focus  ;D 

I totally agree that the area at the bottom of the rear cover is really narrow, and when I saw it for myself, I was amazed.  But, with Ground Clearance in mind, I understood the reasons why.

This is one reason why I used the best Silicone Sealer that I could find that was compatible with Auto Trans Fluid.  And made sure that the mating surfaces were flat, and spotlessly clean.

I have done two transmissions with the Loctite 5900, and thus far, never a problem.

Bruce. >:D

PS.  Don't forget that the Factory didn't use any sealer, apart from the thin Gasket when new.

Image 087.jpgImage 088.jpg 

Has anyone ever heard of a chain failure?  I've not been following this thread, so simmply ignore me if that topic has been address.  Happy day, James

Transmission chain failure not that I know of.  I think even noticeable wear is rare and takes 100's of 1,000's of miles.  One reason is they are way over built.  4x4 transfer cases and transverse transaxles often use a similar chain to drive the front wheels and those chains are maybe 1/4-1/3 as wide.   

I think I read that the first couple years they were having the chains and sprockets made to an extremely high (and expensive) standard and rejecting a lot of them. What they ended up finding out is they could have them made to just a high standard and mixed and matched combinations of chains and sprockets to get the optimum tension.  Someone sat somewhere and found the best combinations to make a 3 piece matched set and those got sent to the assembly area or parts shelves.       

I read somewhere during the first year of being in the public domain, in the Oldsmobile, then the Eldorado is that they were guaranteed for life to allay some of the initial questioning.

Bruce. >:D

Is there a certain trick to do to get the valve stem seals bettor on the valves - they are very hard to get them on - don't want to break something.

Using this valve stem seals which came with the Fel-Pro engine gasket kit:

IMG_4844.JPG

Whenever I had used Felpro Fits, and the Seals were special ones, there was an installation tool supplied with the kit.

It was a simple clear plastic sleeve, about 3/4" long, which slipped over the end of the Valve Stem.   One end was capped, and the seals simply slid over.   The sleeve was then moved to the next valve.

Bruce. >:D

No tool with that set of valve seals - maybe I should just make my own one from some tape or similar

Short update on the spare smog pump to use it just as a spinning pulley w/ tightening capability of the crankshaft - water pump - smog pump belt:

Pump was seized
Got it apart and it looks like it needs new bearings
For reference here are my findings on the bearings:

Front bearing: 6203RS 17x40x12mm
Vane bearings: SCE65 (just for reference - have no need for them in the idler pulley approach)   
Rear Bearings: SCE248 or BA248ZOH

The rear bearing is just the inner part of the back drum - read in another forums that the rear bearing has a rounded/convex) face on one side and a flat face on the other side and that the rear bearing must be installed from the inside out in the support (???) pressing on the flat side, with the marking on the inside - guess it is easier to get the whole back ring where the bearing is in has to come out, the I will press the old bearing out and the new in (from the afterwards facing inside side) and then press the whole back of the drum again onto the drum.

Its like always - would be so nice if it would be easier

  Hi Lars,

Been absent for a while, and just saw your question about the crank pulley. Yes, it's steel. Make sure you have some way to get it centered when you reattach it to the rear section if you're going to try it.
Also note that the bolt pattern for the pulley and balancer is not symmetrical. It will only fit on one way.

As for your smog pump, one problem with these is in how the front bearing is fastened into the main housing. (I'm going through the one off of my 88 Suburban, which is almost identical to the Cadillac pump. It's got the outlet in the rear instead of the side. My goal is to make mine work again though).
But the bearing is retained using heated, Injected plastic, that fills a couple of grooves in the housing as well as two cut in the outer race on the bearing.
In order to get it out of the housing, you have to heat the housing until the plastic melts out, otherwise you will break the housing trying to press the bearing out.
I have searched and searched for a replacement bearing with the grooves in it, but those must be made of unobtainium. The only thing I can find is a regular 6203 bearing.
I'm considering trying to grind out two grooves in the outer race, but I'm still trying to figure out the best way to get the plastic back into the grooves.
The companies that rebuild these don't want the average person to be able to do this, obviously.

Rick

Quote from: IcebearLars on April 01, 2023, 10:45:33 AMIs there a certain trick to do to get the valve stem seals bettor on the valves - they are very hard to get them on - don't want to break something.

The original OEM-style valve stem seals are attached to the spring retainers for the valves.  You have to compress the spring and remove the keepers with a magnet.  Then you can replace the old retainer/seal combination with the new one.  You will need to have the heads off to do this or you need to use compressed air in the cylinder to keep the valve from dropping.  It is very easy with the correct spring compressor.

Quote from: Cadman-iac on April 04, 2023, 11:07:55 AM...
Yes, it's steel.
...
Also note that the bolt pattern for the pulley and balancer is not symmetrical. It will only fit on one way.

Rick, thats fantastic information here! Would have done that for sure with a chance of 3:1 wrong by having it welded in perfect parallelism but not symmetrical to the balancer - so thanks again for that clarification and I will get the modded pulley a try if the smog pump attempt (see below) is not working gout.

Quote from: Cadman-iac on April 04, 2023, 11:07:55 AMAs for your smog pump, one problem with these is in how the front bearing is fastened into the main housing.
...
But the bearing is retained using heated, Injected plastic, that fills a couple of grooves in the housing as well as two cut in the outer race on the bearing.
In order to get it out of the housing, you have to heat the housing until the plastic melts out, otherwise you will break the housing trying to press the bearing out.
I have searched and searched for a replacement bearing with the grooves in it, but those must be made of unobtainium. The only thing I can find is a regular 6203 bearing.
I'm considering trying to grind out two grooves in the outer race, but I'm still trying to figure out the best way to get the plastic back into the grooves.
The companies that rebuild these don't want the average person to be able to do this, obviously.

Found the thing with that plastic retainer of the bearing through my exhaustive WWW search about getting the smog pump apart as well - unfortunately too late AFTER pressing the bearing out and breaking it during that - have just checked if the housing was damaged but as it looks like in the pics I was lucky enough to not break the housing. 

IMG_4854.JPG
IMG_4855.JPG
IMG_4856.JPG
IMG_4857.JPG   

Not sure if it not better to keep the plastic in to help the new bearing to sit tighter pressing it in. Otherwise the hint with grinding 2 grooves into the bearing housing is great and if the new bearing sits not tight enough I am thinking about getting the old plastic out and using one of this hot glue pistol to press new glue/plastic into the channels filled originally with that plastic.

Ordered a 6203 and a BA248ZOH and will keep you all posted on the results - expecting that the front bearing sits not earthquake proof with the old plastic but if it is too lose I will glue it in with above hot glue pistol , two component glue or similar. That should work for having it run as an idler pulley w/o the noise it made with the worn/seized bearings.

Cheers

Lars

Quote from: klinebau on April 04, 2023, 11:48:26 AMThe original OEM-style valve stem seals are attached to the spring retainers for the valves.  You have to compress the spring and remove the keepers with a magnet.  Then you can replace the old retainer/seal combination with the new one.  You will need to have the heads off to do this or you need to use compressed air in the cylinder to keep the valve from dropping.  It is very easy with the correct spring compressor.

The valve stem seals look excatly as the ones which have been in (or better said the rest which remained of them) and reading your description I am thinking that I have not the right spring valve compressor tool to first compress the springs and having the rear end open (not blocked by the tool) to install the valve stem seals and afterwards the keepers before releasing pressure on the spring tool to have it sit in place all together.

My tool is from SummitRacing (SUM-906784) and looks like this and presses at the spring retainers

2023-04-05_07h18_49.jpg

So either I manage to make myself this kind of sleeve which comes normally with the valve stem seal kit and press the retainer/seal combination on it and get the keepers in or I buy another tool which just compresses the spring grabbing it at the spring windings. Will work that out somehow.

Hi Lars,
  The glue that you are talking about using with a glue gun won't work, if you are referring to a hot glue gun. The problem is that the glue melts at too low of a temperature. The heat generated by the bearing itself plus the under hood temperature would cause the glue to melt out, releasing the bearing.
The "glue" they used is actually a nylon or plastic with nylon or other fibers infused in it for strength and heat resistance. It reminds me of the stuff used in the u-joints on some vehicles. And it takes a lot of heat to get it to melt.

Your idea of using a two part glue, or epoxy might work, but getting it into the grooves will be difficult. Being a reactive compound, you'll only have so much time before it begins to set up on you.

Now something else that I've been kicking around in my head is to use 2 or 3 set screws to clamp the bearing in place. To drill and thread the holes for a few small set screws in the housing from the front where the fan goes.
The problem with this idea is that you would have to do it before you press the shaft into the bearing, and hope that the set screws will hold the bearing in place.
  I haven't tried it yet, I'm still thinking about all the things that could go wrong with it.

The new bearing does still fit tightly in the housing on mine, but not tight enough to trust it to stay there without any additional means of retention.

Was the rear bearing bad on your pump? I've noticed that the front bearing is usually the one that goes bad. The smaller diameter of the bearing, the pressure of the belt, and the heat generated by everything tends to ruin them.
The rear bearing is twice as big, and unless it gets wet, should last much longer than the front bearing.

Getting the rear bearing out requires that the end plate be removed from the rotating housing first, then you can press the bearing out of the plate.

Another thing I'm trying to locate is the grease that they used in those bearings. Because they don't have any seals to retain it, regular wheel bearing grease will just run out when it warms up.
And because of how difficult these things are to take apart, I'd rather not have to worry about the grease dripping out.
  My pump was still working fine, it was just beginning to make noise. So I removed it before it grenaded itself. I was able to get it apart without breaking the paddles, or vanes, which ever you want to call them.
I have noticed that there are at least two different designs for the vanes from taking apart several other pumps. I was looking for extra vanes in case I did manage to break one. They aren't mix and match, so be careful if you intend to reuse them.
  I hope this helps.

Rick

The pump I was disassembling is a spare which I got over with an spare 472 I bought back in the days. So the vanes are broken out already as well as I slaughtered everything else out of the pump. Will use it only as an idle pulley with tension capability for the belt running just the two bearings (front and rear), the shaft hub with the pulley attached - I don't even plan to get the white air blade disc on since there is no need to shovel air in the housing for my use.

  Lars,
That would work, but remember that it will still have the side load, or pressure of the belt pulling on the shaft and front bearing, not so much on the rear bearing. But the front bearing is the one that retains the shaft in the correct location, so if it's not anchored properly, then shaft and vane housing will slip forward until it hits the inside of the case, resulting in excessive wear, noise, and possibly loosing the belt, and with it goes your water pump and alternator.
Between the two options that you are considering, the crank pulley is the better choice in my opinion.
  I just wanted to give you all the possible problems that you may encounter with trying to modify the smog pump.
  Rick

 P.S. Have you considered just buying a rebuilt smog pump and running everything as designed?

Hey Rick,

thanks for your thoughts and I fully agree on the load for the front bearing - will check what force is needed to get it in - otherwise I have to secure it in some way in place. Think the option with the two component glue is probably the easiest one - just get the plastic out, grind some groves in the outer bearing surface and glue it in with the glue - it will creep in the groves and concrete it in forever I guess.

Can't use a (refurbished) smog pump as it was since during taking the heads off the one side of the connection pipe gave up (see post #53) - and - here in Germany historic cars don't have emissions to achieve at all - so no need of it.

But you are spot on the thought about "why using a pump if there are other achievable options available" like the modded pulley.

So many things to go through during having the engine apart - that's really exciting!

  Well the good thing about the way that pump was designed is that the shaft cannot come out of the housing on its own. It would make quite a mess of the housing if the bearing comes loose if the belt doesn't come off first.
 Sorry for the gloom and doom, but I'm always thinking of how things can go wrong in order to anticipate them and hopefully prevent them.
 I completely understand though about not wanting the system on the car if it's not required by your country. I feel the same way.
 Please update us on how it works out. I'm definitely curious about how you will keep that bearing in place.
 And I admit I have an ulterior motive for knowing, as I'm going to have to make mine work again eventually. Although the truck isn't affected by it not being in place, I want it back on there anyway.

 Rick

I just had a thought, what if there were a lip or flange on the inner edge of the front bearing that would keep it from going forward once in place? It can't really go backwards since it's stuck on the shaft, and the shaft won't go back any farther because of the rear bearing and housing.
Something maybe that you could spot weld to the outer race on the bearing, like a big thin washer. And I say "spot weld" because of the seals on the bearing.
Just a thought. Never stop trying!!

Rick

By design the whole thing can travel in both directions if the front bearing gets lose.
Making a mess on either side of the housing - not an easy one but we will get there.

Will keep you updated as soon as I get the new bearings - at that time I can try whats possible and how tight things are sitting in the housing.

  Hey Lars,

 I was thinking about your pulley problem and it dawned on me that you could use a pulley set from a 425 engine.  They didn't use a smog pump on those.
 The only problem is that the A/C power steering belt is just a single belt.
 They switched to just one because of the HEI distributor, to gain clearance.
 What you would have to do is to change the power steering pump pulley, and the A/C compressor pulley and probably the hub,to use just the one belt and the 425 crank pulley. A lot of work, for sure!


 But here's what I was thinking. Since you are talking about taking your original crank pulley apart, do that, remove the smog pump drive pulley from the rest of the pulley.
 If you can locate a 425 crank pulley, then you can remove the front groove that drives the alternator and fan.
 Take that part only and weld it to your original pulley, making your new set-up that eliminates the smog pump.

 The 425 was used from 1977 to 1979.

 There was a 368 that was used in 1980 and 81, but I don't know what those had for pulleys and smog pumps.

 But if you can't get that smog pump modification to work, the 425 gives you 3 more years of cars to look for parts.
 Just another idea in case you wanted to think about it.

.Rick

Cleaned the heads today and I am wondering if I need to change these plugs in the heads while they are off?

IMG_5113.JPG

IMG_5114.JPG 

If they are bad, I would be replacing them, and if you are not sure, they are easier to replace off the engine than on.

Actually, I have never seen any of these plugs rust, as against the ones in the Block, and whenever I change them, I replace with Brass.   

The odd thing about the factory-installed plugs are steel, but take a long time to rust, whereas the steel replacements don't seem to take very long to rust.

Maybe that the ones in the Cylinder Heads don't rust is that they are always reaching correct operating temperature than the lower ones.

Bruce. >:D

Quote from: Cadman-iac on April 11, 2023, 02:33:24 PMHey Lars,

 I was thinking about your pulley problem and it dawned on me that you could use a pulley set from a 425 engine.  They didn't use a smog pump on those.
...

Thanks Rick, will keep an eye on the 425 pulleys as well👍👍👍

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 13, 2023, 08:51:03 PMIf they are bad, I would be replacing them, and if you are not sure, they are easier to replace off the engine than on.
...

Thanks Bruce, agreed - better off than on  ;D .
Have bought a set of expansion/freeze plugs (Sealed Power 381-8004) but don't think the ones for the heads are included - couldn't find any specs in the shop manual about them - has someone the specs so that I can get the brass ones (source appreciated) and change them?

Cheers

Lars 

Contacted CaddyDaddy but unfortunately they can't help me with the cylinder head plugs - so need urgent help here finding them

Over the years, I restored 3 cars: two 1956 models and one from 1957. Never replaced the plugs in heads, never had an issue.

Use a caliper to measure the diameter of the holes that the expansion plugs are in.  Then, try to see if you can find them by measurement.  Just be sure to scrape out the rust, dried oil, etc. to be sure you are getting a true measurement of the exact diameter.  USA Parts might have them.  They have a listing under "Freeze Plugs" on page 27 of their catalog:

     http://www.usapartssupply.com/uploads/USA%20PARTS%201949%20-1970%20Cadillac%20Catalog.pdf

Once you get a measurement, it would be worth a call to them.

Dorman Products also has quite a selection by size and style of plug.

     https://www.dormanproducts.com/gsearch.aspx?type=keyword&origin=keyword&q=Freeze+Plug

Daryl Chesterman

Since the parts sellers I contacted either don't have the plugs or don't answer my inquiry I decided not to change them.

It is too hot of a sourcing issue if I can't figure out quickly where to get them.

Yesterday I stripped the engine apart - no significant wear at the camshaft, piston rod and crankshaft bearing. Looks all pretty smooth to me so I will throw new bearings in and put the thing together again.

Got as well all the expansion plugs out of the block and compared them to my new set. So far so good - can plug and the two threaded plugs close to it, 3 plugs on each side but what are the little ones good for? Are the going in the middle of the block in the oil gallery where the lifters sit or did I oversee them belonging somewhere outside of the block?

IMG_5153.jpeg

By the way, I think you will find that the plugs in the heads are the flat dish type which are totally different to the block plugs.

The Screw plugs are for the oil galleries, and the small cup plugs could be for the ends of the heads at the AIR ports?

Bruce. >:D

"--- and the small cup plugs could be for the ends of the heads at the AIR ports?"

That's what they look like to me also.

Tried the small plugs in the heads already but the AIR ports in the heads are bigger - so they are probably for the oil gallery

Check up front of the block near the Cam end, and there could be needed there.

Bruce. >:D

Quote from: IcebearLars on April 13, 2023, 06:53:56 PMCleaned the heads today and I am wondering if I need to change these plugs in the heads while they are off?

IMG_5113.JPG

IMG_5114.JPG 

Folks,

got response from Chris @ Cad Company about the plugs in the heads mentioned in my earlier post - but like always there is a but:
Chris mentioned that there should only be 3 plugs per head (?).
He mentioned that 2 of them are these disc style ones (https://cad500parts.com/product/bh12396/) in their shop and are the ones I marked in my picture and the other ones (2 per engine) are these cup style ones (https://cad500parts.com/product/bh11394/) in their shop.

Can't check it for the next 2 weeks because I am out of country but will check on my heads and the heads of the spare engine - will press the ones of the spare engine heads out to see what they look like and measure the hole they cover as well to have here some clarification for the community.

Searching for the disc style ones in 1 1/4" size I found this information (https://www.hubbardspring.com/product/expansion-plugs-brass/) about a source and about pressing the disc style plugs in - these will regarding the installation recommendation tab in that link end up flat - yiiihhhaaa!

2023-04-20_08h11_55.jpg
2023-04-20_08h12_53.jpg
2023-04-20_08h13_19.jpg   

The way to get the old ones out is to put in a large self-tapping screw in the centre, and lever them out via the head of the screw.   But, you knew that didn't you.

Bruce. >:D

I read about this procedure - thanks - but think at least the ones on the long side can be reached through the hole in the head from the back (see my pics) -  will see how I get them out

Back to the engine overhaul - got today all the parts I ordered and checked the camshaft bearings I bought.

Just to confirm - are all 5 camshaft bearings the same size in the 472? On all the engine build videos explaining how to un-/install the camshaft bearings (but about other engines - found none exactly about 472) I watched they have been different in size, but it looks like the set of Enginetech CC417 1216M, which is definitely for the 472, has 5 bearings of the same size?

Pls advise

Found it in the shop manual - they are all the same and interchangeable bore to bore (1 to 5)

2023-04-27_07h03_38.jpg

Does this help?

(https://bshifter.blob.core.windows.net/solar/ppp5-07_21-08-20.png)


(https://bshifter.blob.core.windows.net/solar/p1qtr25-07_21-08-57.png)

That helps in deed!
Thanks

Where did you get them?

So far no answer from my text to the machine shop who did it for me.... but it seems like a DORMAN 550017 is compatible.

Dorman part at RockAuto (https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/dorman,550017,cylinder+head+plug,11833)


Here's a Clevite 219-1011:

Air boat Depot Clevite (https://airboatdepot.com/clevite-r-219-1011-expansion-cylinder-head-plug-steel-shallow-cup-1-25-for-v-8-cadillac-c-i-d-500-425-368-350-requires-4-qty-.html?category_id=56)