1960 conv for sale $2000

[76eldo]

59's bring much more money when they are done, which for some would be a consideration.  They are the 50's swan song, and the ultimate in fins, and exemplify completely over the top styling.

In 1960, the designers used a little more discretion, and the result was a much more tasteful result in my opinion.

However, a rust free 60 body like that one, and with most of the parts included should not be used to restore a 59, the car is way too nice to NOT be restored, unlike the monumental project that is at the very beginning of this thread.

Brian

[Joe 12138]

It looks like the logic and flow of this discussion is leading to the reasoning behind the notorious LUVDG creation.....a '60 body put on a '59 frame. Now as long as we've got it all apart let's add a Philco (FORD SUBSIDIARY) Telivision in the dash and make up a boolshirt story about a Harvey Url Skunkworks project from the wrong year motorama and try to clean up at the auctions.

[Stewart Homan]

I think time will make all those in favour of saving this car right!

A 59 is worth more money but a 60 is still worth a considerable amount of money - people were clambering over each other to find '59 converts when they hit the $30k's a few years back - I'm seeing 69 and 70's at this money now so none of the cars should be discounted on the basis that they don't command the money of a 59!

I personally buy cars across the board - restored car, unrestored cars, nice drivers etc - it's horses for courses and there is always someone that will want 'that' car.

My point was, I would expect on a Cadillac forum (probably THE Cadillac forum) that any potential project that materialised would be actively encouraged rather than shot down in flames... Imagine the scenario, a 'newbie' see's the ebay listing, decides to research the marque and model etc, finds this forum and reads through whats said about the car - there's every chance he would walk away on that basis!

As I've said, short sighted in my opinion and not doing much to promote the marque or indeed the hobby!

[76eldo]

Stewart,

there's 2 way of looking at that.  A "Newbie" would be completely way over their head getting involved with a rusted out car like the one in the top of the thread.

In 1985, I bought a rusted out 1936 Packard 3 window coupe to restore.  At the time, I could have bought a running car in nice shape for $10,000.  I paid $2500.00 for mine and thought I was getting a great deal.  I didn't know that unless I found a donor car for a lot of the sheet metal I needed, I would be doomed.  it took 5 years to find the right parts, and a total of 15 to restore the car to a national Packard Club 1st place winner.

If I borrowed $10,000 in 1985, I could have been driving a different car for all of those years.  Making payments on a loan would have been a lot less than what i was spending on parts and labor.

I think a Newbie would be better served buying a more affordable Cadillac, and working their way up to a 60 convertible, unless they have some really great metal working skills or connections to someone that can work on the car.

There are a lot of abandoned restoration projects out there because people got in way over their head. 

Just another viewpoint.

Brian

[Stewart Homan]

Stewart,

there's 2 way of looking at that.  A "Newbie" would be completely way over their head getting involved with a rusted out car like the one in the top of the thread.

In 1985, I bought a rusted out 1936 Packard 3 window coupe to restore.  At the time, I could have bought a running car in nice shape for $10,000.  I paid $2500.00 for mine and thought I was getting a great deal.  I didn't know that unless I found a donor car for a lot of the sheet metal I needed, I would be doomed.  it took 5 years to find the right parts, and a total of 15 to restore the car to a national Packard Club 1st place winner.

If I borrowed $10,000 in 1985, I could have been driving a different car for all of those years.  Making payments on a loan would have been a lot less than what i was spending on parts and labor.

I think a Newbie would be better served buying a more affordable Cadillac, and working their way up to a 60 convertible, unless they have some really great metal working skills or connections to someone that can work on the car.

There are a lot of abandoned restoration projects out there because people got in way over their head. 

Just another viewpoint.

Brian

Hi Brian,

Assuming you had taken the 'other' route, where do you think your original 3 window would be now, on the basis that everybody who looked at it took the same stance?

Aren't you proud that you saved an obviously great car from extinction?

One day, there will be none of these projects left...

I wasn't thinking Newbie in terms of someone wet behind-the-ears new to the hobby but new to Cadillac's!

The thing is, I know this car will get done one way or another and most likely outside of the States, I'm just very surprised that restoring this car isn't incouraged on this board and even more surprised that it is actively discouraged and people are poking fun at the car and anyone even contemplating getting involved in it! - I expect this from say a Jaguar website in England but NOT the Cadillac Lasalle Club forum and from some fairly influential people that are able to gather a bit of a following... If nobody speaks up then this attitude will pretty soon become the perceived norm!

And I apologise if it seems to single people out - thats not what I'm trying to do, I personally think that if someone takes on this pretty decent project we as seasoned enthusiasts should encourage it - not tell them they'd be better off taking out a  $70,000 loan so they can buy a done car!

Notwithstanding, for a good many people, the restoration rather than the driving/showing is the part of the hobby they like best!



Stew

[76eldo]

Stewart,

I am very proud that I took a rusty parts car to a high level of restoration.  When I bought it, I was 28 and had no kids.  Now I am 52, and I do not have the patience or the time to go through what I went through with that car.

This is just a discussion forum, and we are just expressing our view points.  I think that with the number of 60 Cadillacs available every day on ebay, I would rather buy a running car that I could enjoy and improve it as i drive it.  That's my opinion after restoring a car and creating an art object out of a very rough car.  There is no doubt in my mind that if I didn't restore the car, it would be someone's street rod by now.  To each his own.

I hope someone buys the car and is very happy working on it for the next few years.

Brian

[Stewart Homan]

Stewart,

I am very proud that I took a rusty parts car to a high level of restoration.  When I bought it, I was 28 and had no kids.  Now I am 52, and I do not have the patience or the time to go through what I went through with that car.

This is just a discussion forum, and we are just expressing our view points.  I think that with the number of 60 Cadillacs available every day on ebay, I would rather buy a running car that I could enjoy and improve it as i drive it.  That's my opinion after restoring a car and creating an art object out of a very rough car.  There is no doubt in my mind that if I didn't restore the car, it would be someone's street rod by now.  To each his own.

I hope someone buys the car and is very happy working on it for the next few years.

Brian

Hi Brian,

I would disagree, this isn't 'just' a discussion forum , it is the main point of contact and discussion for Cadillac and Lasalle enthusiasts worldwide - almost a kind of Mecca or fount of information for many - for my part, I feel the restoration of Cadillacs should be encouraged, not dis-couraged - sure, talk about the pitfalls and the likely cost implications but don't laugh in it's face - because if this forum is doing that then what chance do we really have of ensuring the longevity of the hobby!

Notwithstanding, I would actively encourage a 28 year old bloke with no kids to restore a 60 caddy convertible - I couldn't think of anything better!





Stew

[76eldo]

I have a pet peeve.  I seriously dislike it when people use the quote feature and dissect what I post.  Anyone can pick apart anything that someone else posts as their opinion and disagree with it. 

This IS just a discussion forum.  If you think that these posts going back and forth are seriously going to re-shape the face of the car collecting hobby, that's just nuts.  There is a lot more places that people get Cadillac information from than this website.  Mecca?  Should I kneel and face east when I sign on?

Why don't you buy the car and restore it yourself?  Did you notice that the first 7 posts on this topic were making fun of the car and the listing?  That car is a piece of crap, and it doesn't make sense to pour large amounts of cash into it when there are many others that you can buy. 

I stand by my original post and wouldn't take that particular car for free.  I was trying to be nice, but you pushed my button.

I am done on this topic so quote, and dissect, and disagree all you want, I won't reply.

Brian

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

Brian,
I couldn't have said it any better. You are right on.
Bob

[Stewart Homan]

Well bully for you! Nice to be in the position to buy perfect cars!

There are a lot of incredible cars that would be crushed to a pulp by now if everyone thought like you!

You're in a very enviable position - there are lots of guys round the world that love these cars and go to great lengths to restore them and keep them for posterity and make sure they are not sent to the scrap yard - if thats not your bag then great but don't diss people that do that!

...and whatever you may think you and people that think and agree with you are in the minority!

And I don't mean to be rude either but one of my pet peeves is people that look down their noses at other people!

[John Morris #23947]

No offense please Stewart. But it could easily be said that you yourself are looking down your nose at others who don't have the $100,000 and facilities you have. I disagree on your point that most others would prefer to put the $100,000 into this car. I would part it, sell the Convertible frame etc. How many other rust free 60's would have to be "donaters" to fix this one? Either way a car is lost.

[Daniel]

    I get a real laugh from some of you so called car guys.   First that Joe Brown fool bothering the guy offering some Caddys to those in need of parts and now so much old lady blab blab about this 60 Convertible. Who cares? This Brian guy calls that 60 Convertible a "piece of crap"? No real Caddy collector would call any Cadillac, forget that it's a 60 convertible a piece of crap. From the current bid price, I guess the car is not crap now is it? This does not sound cool to other car guys. Now that is my "Pet Peeve". This Stewart guy is correct unless you miss his point. I also love to bring back a very old rough car and save it.

[Stewart Homan]

No offense please Stewart. But it could easily be said that you yourself are looking down your nose at others who don't have the $100,000 and facilities you have. I disagree on your point that most others would prefer to put the $100,000 into this car. I would part it, sell the Convertible frame etc. How many other rust free 60's would have to be "donaters" to fix this one? Either way a car is lost.

I'm not saying that John, what I'm saying is, you don't need to put $100k in to the car to make it worthy of being done - show cars are great and thank god people go to that degree to do them but the vast majority of this hobby is made up of nice cruisers - the cars you see at local car shows or cruises - what the hell is wrong with this car being one of those? I'm really missing something here! That car can be easily built from existing parts and/or parts cars and there are lots of guys capable and willing to do the work!

And Daniel is right, it's so uncool to be calling this car crap on a Cadillac forum!

[Carfreak]

I'm not saying that John, what I'm saying is, you don't need to put $100k in to the car to make it worthy of being done - show cars are great and thank god people go to that degree to do them but the vast majority of this hobby is made up of nice cruisers - the cars you see at local car shows or cruises - what the hell is wrong with this car being one of those? I'm really missing something here! That car can be easily built from existing parts and/or parts cars and there are lots of guys capable and willing to do the work!

And Daniel is right, it's so uncool to be calling this car crap on a Cadillac forum!

Agreed!!!

The funny thing, many (not all) of those who look down their noses as this type of car are the same ones restoring a nice, low-mileage original to be an overdone trailer queen painted that horrid color of resale red.   

Yes, I realize that this car is not a 'nice, low mileage original' but my point and that of a few others is not every car needs a $100k restoration to be enjoyed. 

[David King (kz78hy)]

WOW, all this over a rusty old convertible.

Once I was in the camp to save them all.  With unlimited funds, you could.  I now have to look at each car on it's own merits and it has to have enough of something to say, forget a business case and bring me back.  Sometimes the answer is no, you are just to far gone for the hassle and cost and are a donor for that better car out there. 

I realize that those 2 '53 Eldorados for sale a few weeks ago are so rare that those cars were saved because of that special merit thing, but in my judgement, they were parts cars.  One of my Brougham parts cars is that, a parts car, the other could be brought back with it's help.

I'm glad that our group has the passion to still save them all.  The club benefits with that mindset.

My 2 cents.

[76eldo]

So this thread was started to highlight a really misleading and poorly done ebay listing, and 7 people before me poked fun at the listing and the car.

Then it turned into a debate over what cars are worth restoring and what are not.

Then it turned into dissecting my comments and critiquing them.

If someone wants to restore that car, which buy the way did not sell, God bless them, I wish them nothing but sunshine and happiness in their long and expensive journey.

The values on these cars is not what it used to be, and if you look at the 1960 Cadillacs on ebay that are drivers, you will see what I mean.  There's a white 60 Biarritz that has been on there for over a year!

I have bought and sold 2 1960 Eldorado Biarritz convertibles in the past 2 years, and I know good from bad.

I should not have referred to the car as a piece of crap, but if you read the post in context it might make more sense.

Nothing is unrestorable, but this particular car, in my opinion, is a poor starting point for a restoration.  It needs quarters, floors, rockers, and what you can't see is probably shot too.  The body mounts, the inner rockers and wheel arches in the rear, and even the frame is probably rotted.   Then you have the rest of the body to deal with, chrome, interior, and totally rebuild the car mechanically.  

For the record, none of my cars are trailer queens, they all get driven, and they are nice driver cars.  I do all of the work on them myself, and have the greasy hands, busted knuckles and receipts to prove it.  I have been into cars since I got my first one at 15, and have owned dozens of Cadillacs, plus countless muscle cars, Packards, Lincolns and others.  I don't judge other collectors and was not looking "down my nose" at anyone.  I was just expressing my opinion on the CLC message board, as I am a paid up member if the CLC, not a guest.  In the future, I will certainly refrain from offering any opinions on someone's ebay dream (or nightmare).  I have seen a lot of cars over the years that people have bought with the intention of restoring and got in way over their head, and was simply stating the case for not restoring this one.

Brian

[Otto Skorzeny]

Brian, you don't owe anyone an apology or an explanation for your opinion.

Some people will share your opinion, others will not. I certainly didn't think you were belittling anyone who restores rust buckets. I took your comments on face value that you would not restore a rust bucket. No one should read into it any more than that.

[Stewart Homan]

Hi Brian,

This isn't and was never intended to become a personal attack on you and if it has become that I apologise unreservedly.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and it is that which makes the world go round!

I hear what you're saying but I know from experience that there are people - and I get them all the time in my shop - that hang on to every word garnered on web forums and do indeed base decisions on that same information - I believe yours, amongst others, is a powerful voice on this forum and people respect your knowledge and experience  and use it as they see fit!

I think we are all singing from the same hymn sheet!

Kind regards,



Stewart

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

Hi guys,
Those last few posts make me feel good. Thanks for posting.
I've come up with some words to substitute for piece  of cxxp & add a little humor.
Let's call these cars restorationally challenged. LOL
Bob

[Chris Conklin]

This horse has surely expired, but I'll chime in anyway... 

My issue with these "restorationally challenged" vehicles (great term Bob!) is the sellers. This car was bid up into the $6K's and didn't meet the reserve. Are you kidding me? What does the seller expect to garner from this car? I am guessing there was (...is, it's re-listed I believe) a reserve north of $10K for this example of oxidation. Are these cars really worth $5K per fin? The fins are almost the only items still usable (kidding, sorta). The seller will likely argue that it's worth well over $10K for parts. Then the seller ought to be parting it or getting real about the price to get the car off his hands and, with any luck, back on the road (in parts or in total).

In my mind, these ridiculous prices for marginal cars will doom them to remain in whatever spot of soil they are sinking into. A few posters in this thread mentioned the rust buckets they've restored because it was the only thing they could afford to do. We now can't afford rust buckets either. Have we shot ourselves in the foot by over-bidding these cars based on their possible future restored worth? Get ready... here come the Eldorado "clones"...