What should I do? Involves another CLC member.

[Louis Smith]

Now if the purchase price was brought into the mix, would everyone's opinion change if you knew?  If the car was bought at a price that would be fair for an incorrect engine, I bet everyone would be saying good deal.

I thoroughly agree, and would take it one step further, and might imagine the buyer might have been grinning like a Cheshire Cat, with their "stealing the car".  Its my thinking that the buyer was disappointed in not receiving what he thought he was going to get.

[Huffstutler]

That said- does it make a difference in value in the case of this particular? It's very difficult to answer but I have no doubt there are a lot of mega-dollar restored Cadillacs- such as '59 Biarritzes that do not have their factory installed engines and still command some serious money.

True, scarce cars do demand more on their own merit but if everything matched then it would fetch more money.  But I am a bit baffled by the comment about high end Cadillac owners don’t really care?  Do they not participate in shows to obtain points and awards which in itself have restrictions?

[Louis Smith]

True, scarce cars do demand more on their own merit but if everything matched then it would fetch more money.  But I am a bit baffled by the comment about high end Cadillac owners don’t really care?  Do they not participate in shows to obtain points and awards which in itself have restrictions?

I was merely suggesting that there is a segment of the classic car hobby, that purchase "high end" Cadillacs for bragging rights.  Many do not belong to any car clubs, or participate in many shows to garner awards.  How many compromise this segment, I wouldn't even venture a guess.  I am basically referring to those buyers you see in the organized auctions you see on TV.  For many, when they bid, its a matter of saying "mine is bigger then yours (bankroll)"

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

No question, all other things equal- the car with the original plant as delivered new would certainly have the edge, valuewise.

But there's little question that things like correct engines rank far lower on most Cadillac buyers' radar than in the muscle car arena where the issue is highly scrutinized. I know I've never bothered to compare engine numbers to the VIN in any Cadillac I've ever bought nor has anyone to whom I sold a car done so either. I guess it's pretty much taken for granted with Cadillacs and it just doesn't seem to affect their values too much. Definitely not the case in the muscle car arena. That's a whole 'nother ballgame with those cars.

Now if we're talking some ultra low mileage pristine original time capsule, that might be a different story. Or a 100 pt resto. Even then, the car is still going to command big bucks simply because of what it is.   

Years ago I looked at a '61 62 conv that had a '59 engine which jumped right out at me. It was a pretty nice car and a friend ultimately bought and sold it without incident after having it a few years.

An incorrect engine series is a more serious matter though.

[Louis Smith]

So how does all this affect the modified cars value?

[Dan LeBlanc]

Simple.  It's all relative to the purchase price.

Let me pose the question - what would someone pay for a 58 Biarritz, #3 condition, with a new Cadillac power plant?

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

So how does all this affect the modified cars value?

Good question but without a lot of reliable data tied to the engine change, it's near impossible to answer with any degree of accuracy. There are simply too many variables involved.

Now a 1970 Hemi Cuda Convertible that's worth say $500K when all's correct; expect that to be cut in half or less with the wrong engine number alone. I don't see the value of a '50s Cadillac being affected anywhere near that magnitude.   

[Martin Michaels]

Hello all, just my 2 cents worth. I purchased a 1947 4 door sedan that needed a restoration, not a high dollar car.The reason I bought it was because it was a #s matching all original even the tranny was matching. I doubt I would have bought it other wise. Marty

[Dan LeBlanc]

The question everyone seems to be dancing around is was the purchase price reflective of what the car is despite the sellers claims.

[Louis Smith]

The question everyone seems to be dancing around is was the purchase price reflective of what the car is despite the sellers claims.

I will sit this dance out, as its the same as asking "how long is a piece of string?"

[Dan LeBlanc]

The point I'm trying to make is that we don't have all the facts and if we did, this debate may very well not have occured.

[cadillacmike68]

Now if the purchase price was brought into the mix, would everyone's opinion change if you knew?  If the car was bought at a price that would be fair for an incorrect engine, I bet everyone would be saying good deal.

Dan, 3 or 4 people here beside Bill (the buyer) know the ebay final sale price. I am not one of those. It would still make a difference to me, but in a relative sense. I know how much a fully restored or near pristine original 58 or 59 Eldorado convertible can go for, but varying levels below those grades and trice fluctuates greatly.

Bill originally described the car as "restorable", not "restored", so who knows.

As to "matching numbers"; that is a crock of bullsh!t as I mentioned before. The muscle car scammers have made it meaningless over the years, to the point that even if i still wanted say a GTO, Camaro, or late 60s corvette, I refuse to bother now because no one can be trusted.

With a Cadillac though, either it's the original engine or not. But if not, it should Still be the same year or series (if there were no engine changes between certain years), and this car we are talking about is clearly neither, but was stated as at least matching the 2nd criteria.

I have the good fortune of knowing that my 1968 still has the original engine and transmission. But didn't know for certain until i had it overhauled. But I knew when i bought it that it had a 1968 472 and not a 69 or 70 version.

[cadillacmike68]

Simple.  It's all relative to the purchase price.

Which is what I stated on page 1 of this thread.

[Louis Smith]

I find the different opinions on the initial question and the ensuing topics mentioned, most interesting.  Just a part of the hobby, that makes it most interesting, as it really shows democracy in action.

[cadillacmike68]

I thought you sere sitting this dance out, Louis? 

[76eldo]

Regardless of the price the car was not as represented and as a CLC member, a car guy, and a gentlemen, some apology and remuneration is in order.

I suggested contacting a lawyer to write a strong letter and ask for $10,000.
In reality, no one wants to go to court, or wait for a lengthy process but the threat of impending litigation strongly motivates most right thinking individuals to do something to rectify the situation.

I saw a red 58 Eldo convertible that ssold twice in December on eBay completed listings for $41,000 and change. I don't know if that's the same car.

But, even though that's a great price for a running 58 Eldo convertible it was presented as having the correct engine.

On totally restored muscle cars engines have been known to be renumbered and some things can be faked. I recently inspected a 1968 Charger RT with a 440 magnum from the factory. The VIN number matched the engine number, other frame cradle stampings matched the fender tag and the car was a legit 31,000 mile original car. The buyer in Norway wanted an original car with a numbers matching engine. It cost him $500.00 to have the car verified, road tested, photographed extensively, and video taped and he got a 10 page report on the car. This gave him enough peace of mind to wire the seller $38,000 and start the shipping process. Norway also has a 25 percent import duty and they examine every transaction involving an imported car so you cannot claim you paid less to beat the tax.

Lesson learned is unless you are buying a car from your own mother you should have the car looked at by someone that would pick up on obvious inconsistencies and give you some guidance on the condition of the car.

Value and price comes down to what you are willing to pay for what you are getting.

In this instance, no matter what the price was, the buyer was shortchanged either by accident or on purpose and that is the basis of the conflict.

Hopefully these gentlemen can come up with a suitable remedy.

Brian

[Louis Smith]

I thought you sere sitting this dance out, Louis? 

Yes I am.  I am sitting on the sidelines enjoying the entertainment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvRdt8f0a-k

[Dan LeBlanc]

Lets say that it is the same car (and I'm pretty sure it is as you don't see many of this model and this configuration/colour combination) and $40,000 was the purchase price.  Has anyone checked the price guides for a #4 condition 58 Biarritz?

Starting with the definition of #4

#4 cars are daily drivers, with flaws visible to the naked eye. The chrome might have pitting or scratches, the windshield might be chipped. Paintwork is imperfect, and perhaps the fender has a minor dent. The interior could have split seams or a cracked dash. No major parts are missing, but the wheels could differ from the originals, or the interior might not be stock. A #4 car can also be a deteriorated restoration. "Fair" is the one word that describes a #4 car.

Values on a #4 58 Biarritz from December 2006 to December 2012 have ranged from a low of $68,900 to a high of $75,000.

Even with the misrepresentation and a $10,000 "credit" on the purchase would bring the value down from $58,900 to $65,000 based on the book values.  With that said, the $40,000 purchase price is still $18,900 to $25,000 less than what the car would be worth with a $10,000 deduction for an incorrect engine.

Yes, there is a matter of principle here, HOWEVER, the purchase price of the car was more than fair considering what it is and how it sits.  You get what you pay for.  In this case, the buyer paid a lot less than what was worth, so right there, the low price should set off some alarms and say something is fishy, I should do a little digging.

That's the bad thing about auctions, you get caught in the heat of the moment and purchase with your emotions rather than your common sense.  Emotions prevailed here, common sense lost.  Luckily, a good deal was still had despite the car's description.

I also think that the calls to have the club president step in to mediate the dispute are insane.  The club president has better things to do with his time than to be a go-between in a match between members?  What sort of precedant would that set for future club disputes?  Is our president a president or a mediator.  That's the role of binding arbitration and both parties can agree to a neutral party to settle the dispute.  That's how Judge Judy makes her living after all.

[INTMD8]

Yes, there is a matter of principle here, HOWEVER, the purchase price of the car was more than fair considering what it is and how it sits.

I agree.

Buyer should have been more diligent and the seller should not have misrepresented the car.

Mistakes on both sides but in the end seems like a good price.

[76eldo]

Dan

Completely valid. I'd buy that car right now for $41,000 with the wrong engine.

The point about the club is right on too. The club has no standing or reason to get involved in a monetary dispute.

If you read my posts, the lawyer and the $10,000 demand ad just a way to get the seller to take this more seriously and so "something".

Anyway I think the topic has been covered top to bottom.
Hopefully the car runs well and can be enjoyed as is and at some later point a correct engine can be sourced and installed if the car ever gets fully restored.

Brian