Problem:
1979 DeVille 425 carbureted engine. Engine starts and shuts right off. After a couple of ON/OFF cycles it will not even cycle, just cranks. I noticed that the oil pressure light does not go out. Does the vehicle have to be running for the light to go out or should it go out after cranking the engine a few times?
Background information:
I truly believe the car to be a 49,183 original mile car. I have numerous receipts and documents to support the mileage. Last oil change was 48,850 miles on October 29, 2006. The last time the vehicle was on the road was June 25, 2009, at 49140 miles. I have no idea how long it sat dormant. I do know that it was stored inside until about a month ago. The dealer that I got it from told me that it did run. He also told me that it ran out of gas and he put gas in it and now it won't stay running.
What I did so far:
I removed the oil pressure switch and installed an oil pressure gauge, cranked the engine and did not get a reading, the gauge did not move from 0 psi. I next changed the oil and replaced the oil filter. I cut the old filter apart and noticed a little sludge (about a tablespoon) in the bottom of the filter. The pleated paper inside the filter was intact. The old oil felt fine. I did not notice any metal whatsoever in the oil or filter. I also pushed the oil pressure regulator relief spring in and out to be sure it was not stuck, it moved freely back and forth in its bore.
My thoughts:
I thought before I start looking for a fuel or fuel system problem that maybe the oil pump lost its prime, from sitting all those years, so I was going to remove the pump check the tolerances and prime the pump as per the service manual and see what happens.
Your thoughts
I am not the brightest bulb in the box so I figured I would ask you guys/gals for your thoughts before I continue on. If the consensus is a fuel issue and not an oil pressure issue I will redirect and start with the fuel system. Any and all comments, thoughts and ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
:) #1. Never try to start a car (you care about) that has been sitting for that long without giving it a thorough check over. You need to attend to both the gas flow and the oil. If it were mine, I would, at the very least, pull the plugs, spray some Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinders (or any good oil) and crank the engine (plugs out) with a good battery until you got oil pressure and then crank a little more after that.
You might try pouring a small amount of gas down the carburetor (no more than a shot glass, after the plugs are reinstalled), if it fires and runs on that and shuts off, you have a fuel delivery problem. With a car that has sat that long, it could be in the carb --- stuck needle and seat, stuck floats, neither allowing fuel in. The fuel filter could be full of crap from having run out of gas (how old IS that gas?), the fuel pump diaphragm could be dried out and not able to pump. Disconnect the fuel line at the carb and direct any fuel you might get into a good sized container, crank the engine and see that you are getting fuel into the container, if not you'll have to find out why.
Of course, it is never a good idea to run without oil pressure, but the engine will stand a little. There is no low oil pressure "shut-off" that won't allow it to run. Actually, if it were mine (more so than just pulling the plugs and cranking it), I would have pulled the distributor and spun the oil pump with a drill motor and a made up tool to get down into the slot and spin the pump to get oil flow and pressure to the engine. I have seen a wood boring bit with the point ground off work just fine. It will take a larger drill motor (1/2 inch drive) to spin the pump once it picks up the prime.
It is always a good idea, especially in this case, to fill the new oil filter with oil before installing it, it helps the pump pick up the prime much faster. Pour fresh oil into the filter and let it sit a minute as the oil is absorbed into the filter material, then pour in some more. You won't be able to fill it completely because the filter installs at an slight angle but it helps immensely.
I would not run an engine that cannot immediately
show some oil pressure. I prime those by connecting
a high pressure hose (trans pressure gauge) between
the pressure port and that of another engine. Run
that one for 30 seconds to pressurize your engine,
watch that no more than a quart of oil get transfered
between engines.
If gas in the carb runs it, you have a fuel problem,
I have started using a fuel pressure gauge on old cars.
If gas does not start it, likely ignition. AND before
all that, check that the timing chain set is reasonably
doing its job. Bruce Roe
I would agree that the oil problem needs to be figured out first. You should be able to generate some pressure cranking and if you are getting zero that isn't good.
Once the oil is figured out on to fuel, A common problem other than just old age with these cars was for one reason or another the charcoal canisters have a failure that lets charcoal bits get into the float bowl of the carb. Don't know why 77-79 seemed especially bad for this issue. Those bits are just perfect size to plug up the jet holes. Kinda a pain to clean out and even worse when you just assume it was just random crap and don't fix the problem and have to do it again right away. Quick patch was to just install an inline fuel filter in the line from the canister to the carb to catch the bits. Real fix is to replace the canister.
Sounds like the engine is not getting fuel. Will the engine run if you give it fuel down the float bowl vent? Could be the fuel filter could be backward when it was installed (happened once to me) and the car will start for 2 seconds then sputter. Then no fuel will make it to the bowl of the carb and you will just keep cranking.
Also could just be a bad fuel pump all together.
Thanks, guys, for all the advice. I will do some more diagnostic testing and let you know how I make out.
Dont forget the inline filter in the carb inlet fitting , often overlooked.
And? Does Your baby already run?
What was the problem?
With a car sitting this long the existing fuel goes stale, diluting idea does not work because the bad gas is HEAVIER, the new fuel will sit on top.
You must remove all the existing stale fuel.
If you run the engine on stale fuel it can (likely) seize the valves in the guides necessitates removing the heads to repair.
Firstly, the oil lamp will only extinguish with the engine running (assuming there are no oil pressure issues). The lamp will otherwise illuminate with the key on without engine running.
The rest as you described sounds like a clogged pickup screen in the tank. If the engine is able to fire up however briefly after it sat for a while, it means enough time had elapsed allowing rust/debris particles to fall off enabling fuel to pass through until it becomes choked up again. The tank should be removed, inspected and refurbished/replaced as necessary. Same for the pickup/sending unit. Fuel lines should be checked as well.
The famous gas tank "sock", caused a lot of issues over the years.
A plugged exhaust system will cause similar symptoms, restricted catalytic converter
Good morning, all. I have not been able to get back to the problem until yesterday. As I said in my original post, I changed the oil and filter and was still not able to start the car. So yesterday I figured I would unscrew the oil filter and see if there was any oil in it (as when I installed it, I did not fill it with oil) well the filter was full of oil. With that said I guess the oil pump is doing its job, so I moved on to fuel. I decided to drop the tank and take a look inside. Man did I find exactly what some of you guys said in the fuel tank. It was full of rusty and cloudy gas, debris and the sock was ¾ plugged. After removing all the stale gas from the tank there was so much rust inside that I figured the tank is shot. I am in the process of getting a new tank and sock. I have blown out the fuel lines with compressed air and I am moving up to the carburetor to replace the fuel filter. I figure the fuel pump is working since it was pumping fuel to the carburetor. I also do not want to touch the carburetor unless I have to. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? I will report back once the tank arrives and I get it installed, again thanks for all your help.
The probability is the carburetor will need to be disassembled and cleaned of the varnish
If fuel was left in the float bowl, it will have evaporated and probably left crusty deposits in the bowl. It would be best to at least remove the top of the carb and inspect the float bowl for debris. Personally, I would remove the carb and overhaul it. Get an OE manual for your car and follow the directions. It is not that difficult. Count the turns to bottom for the mixture screws and when you reassemble the carb install the screws to bottom and back out the to the original position. I keep the mixture screws installed in the same side that I removed them from. You should replace the float and check all the vacuum breaks.
UPDATE:
Car still not running, but I am making progress. I have installed the new tank and sender and added approximately 7 gallons of gas. After a bit of struggle and raising the rear of the vehicle I was able to get a good flow of fuel up to the fuel pump from the tank. After connecting the fuel line (from the tank) to the pump I disconnected the steel line at the pump. I attempted to use the vehicle starter to pump fuel thru the pump. That did not work; no fuel flowed thru the fuel pump. Since this is the original pump (I'm guessing because it is painted blue) I figured the pump is bad, so I removed it. The new replacement pump (airtex 41204) is different from the old pump (see pics). The new pump arm does not appear to be close to the old pump arm. I was going to try and switch arms, but the new pump arm is retained in place different from the old pump arm. It looks like the pump will mount to the block, but I did not try it. Anyway, that's where I am as of yesterday. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Before condeming the old pump, I would reinstall it and do some testing. Disconnect the ign wire a the ign coil. If you have an air compressor, stick a rag in the fuel tank fill neck and with the line off the fuel pump blow air into the tank. You should get a solid stream of fuel from the line at the pump. Connect a vacuum gauge to the inlet fitting of the fuel pump and crank the engine. You should see 15+ inHg on the vacuum gauge. If it does not pull a vacuum, the pump is bad. If it pulls a vacuum usually the pump is OK. Next, connect the inlet line to the pump, apply a small amount of air pressure to the tank to fill the fuel pump. Crank the engine and see if you get some fuel out of the line to the carb. If not, remove the fuel line at the fuel tank and connect the vacuum gauge to the line. Crank the engine. You should see and vacuum. If not, you have a leak in the fuel line from the tank to the pump. If it pulls a vacuum and you get no fuel from the line to the carb, the valve inside the pump is bad. If there is an issue with the pump diaphram, fuel will usuall come out of the vent hole in the pump.
I would try to get an AC Delco pump and compare it to your old pump. I would be concerned that the Airtex pump would be damaged when you crank it over or when you install it.
Stack the pumps and compare where the short part of the arm ends up. The flat area where it rides on the cam may be in the same place it just may take a different route to get there. Oldsmobile is a pretty similar pump but did have a different arm so its possible you got some olds parts.
Have you considered rebuilding the fuel pump you have. It's not that hard or expensive. You'll have a dependable unit you can have confidence in.
Michael, How do you rebuild that style of pump? I know nothing is impossible given enough time and money but these seem pretty far on the impractical side. First question is does anyone sell the replacement parts and then the 2nd problem is how do you install them? Crimped housing, staked in valves, riveted on diaphragm?
I could not see that it was crimped. Sorry, probably not rebuildable.
Hi all. Well, I now have fuel to both sides of the new fuel pump, but as some of you have said the carburetor will have to be rebuilt and that is where I am at this point. The carburetor is off the car and on the work bench.
I talked briefly about fuel pumps in my post above. Let me tell you the fuel pump story. It is my opinion that the Airtex 41204 pump is not the right pump for this engine. I was not comfortable with the Airtex pump, so I did not try to install it. The configuration of the pump arm was different from the original pump and the diameter of the pump body was also different everything else was identical to both pumps (see pictures for pump comparisons. Please disregard the measurements on the ruler as they mean nothing to the comparison). With that said I bought a Carter M6952 fuel pump. Both pumps (Airtex and Carter) had part identification numbers on them. The Carter was clear and easy to find. The Airtex was hidden and hardly visible without magnification. I Carter M6952 pump, which other than the metal plate riveted to the pump arm is identical to my original pump. I called Carter technical services, and the gentleman told me that they eliminated the metal plate because they went to a hardened steel arm. Well, that's my pump story. I will post an update once I rebuild and install the carburetor and the vehicle starts, I hope.
Which one is which color wise?
Amazing that when you got a different brand you actually got a different pump. A few years ago I was thinking I had an issue with the previous gen cad one and I bought 3 different brands and they were all the identical pumps. I no longer recall the brands but if I had to guess I would say Delphi, Carter, and Airtex.
The blue one is the original pump in all the photos. Something I forgot to mention in my last post is as follows. On the Airtex pump the pump lever was staked in place in the pump housing by some type of crimping method. Whereas on the Carter pump the pump lever was set in place with a roll pin, just like the factory pump.
Of the new ones which is which? Gold vs silver?
carter is the silver one. gold is the airtex pump.
UPDATE_2
Hi All
Well, the fuel system problem is under control. With the new tank, sender, fuel pump and carburetor rebuild. The old dog is up and running.
However, I still do not have oil pressure. I removed all the spark plugs and cranked the engine for a while (as someone suggested in this post) and still the light did not go out. I installed an oil pressure gauge and started the engine and still no pressure. I did not want to run the engine long, so I shut it down after about 45 seconds. I replaced the oil pump with a known good used unit I had. I followed the instructions in the factory manual. Still no oil pressure! When the engine is running there is a slight lower end thumping, and the engine does shake. To me it does not sound like main bearing knocking as it is not a loud knocking sound. When I accelerate, the thumping does not appear to get any louder. There is also some lifter noise, but not a lot. I am kind of at the end of the line unless you guys have any more advice or ideas as to what I should try next.
What happens if you crank it without the oil filter installed? The filter is after the pump so this will tel you if its able to draw oil out of the pan. It should come out the outer area of the filter mount. The inner leads to the engine.
If you don't get any oil there there has to be an issue with the pickup like its completely clogged or is loose. IF you got oil there there then its got to be something like a galley plug has fallen out and is bleeding off all the pressure.
I would have been working at this before doing the rest. If you aint got any oil pressure it doesn't take any time at all to trash the engine assuming it wasn't trashed before you got it.
TJ, I removed the filter and cranked the engine as you suggested. I am getting oil. The vehicle had been sitting in a garage since 2006. I guess it was parked due to the oil light issue.
So that tells us the pickup tube is mostly attached and not completely plugged. Are the pumps you have been using aluminum? Or iron? I believe the originals were all aluminum and replacements are iron. For many years Melling was the only one making them and they had a known machining tolerance issue in the regulator that would allow the piston to jam up in the bore which leaves you with virtually no oil pressure.
What do you get if you remove the oil pressure sensor/gauge and crank it? Do you get oil out that port? I'm just wondering if its getting lost before it gets that far or if its pumping OK but there is just a ton of wear and it can't build pressure. It would be rare for one of these engines to be that beat up.
If it was a clogged pickup screen I would think you could initially build some pressure but not maintain it as it sucks more crap up and packs it tighter in the pickup but that doesn't seem to be happening here.
This does not seem to be progressing in an encouraging direction. Your next avenue might be to pull the oil pan.
Ya, being a Deville it should be possible to pull the pan without removing major components. See how much crap is in it and wiggle around the bottom end. If its not building any pressure I would expect to find things like rod caps to wiggle just by grabbing them.
Both pumps are aluminum. The pump that was originally on the engine was painted blue, so I am assuming it is the original pump. The other pump is all silver color, so I am guessing that was a replacement pump at some time before I got it. I know that pump is good because it came off of a running engine. I also checked it for wear, and it was within specification.
I packed the pump with petroleum jelly as the factory manual suggested, is it possible that I did not allow the jelly to get sucked thru the system before shutting the engine down. I did not want to run the engine long as I am trying to minimize the damage. I only ran the engine for about 45 seconds.
With the gauge/sender removed I get on oil coming out of the port.
Someone in the post suggested checking for a plugged exhaust system. I would think that a plugged exhaust system would have nothing to do with not getting oil pressure. What do you guys think?
Plugged exhaust would not effect oil pressure at least short term. Long term maybe it would raise temps which would lower oil pressure but that isn't the biggest problem here.
Next I would say pull the valve covers and check to see that all 16 rockers are working. The only easy(ish) thing I can think of is at one point a valve was stuck which bent a pushrod which then let a lifter pop out of its bore and that is where all the oil pressure is bleeding off from.
If the lifter is still in the bore a new pushrod may get you back working again. If its completely fallen out you will likely have to remove the intake to get it back in there.
I made the suggestion of plugged catalytic converter as related to 'not starting or running'. But that would not have not related to oil pressure. Unfortunately your scenario is not encouraging. Could be spun or damaged bearing, probably need to pull the pan at this point.
I have a good 1977 425 assembly with under 80k miles in my shop. 85004.
V63. Thanks for the engine offer, but if I decide to do some further checking and it turns out to be bad, I am just going to break the old dog up and sell her for parts. I must say that I did have some fun getting to this point, as it has been quite a few years since I opened the toolbox and got my hands dirty.
Maybe post some pictures of the patient, we can provide some moral support
V63- here are some pics.
Nick
If you didn't pack the new pump with Vaseline it has lost its prime and doesn't have the suction to draw oil up and into it
Greg surfas
I believe somewhere in the thread he verified oil was flowing but not building pressure.
I simply changed my oil in a 472 once and instantly I had no oil pressure and yes I had to pull the pump and pack it with petroleum jelly. That indeed worked. My policy now is I change the oil first THEN the filter last after filling the new filter with oil first
Fleetwood looks real nice! The rear fillers are to be expected.
"My policy now is I change the oil first THEN the filter last after filling the new filter with oil first."
Agree, filling the filter with as much oil as possible (you won't be able to fill it completely because it installs at an angle) before installing it gets the oil pressure up almost immediately when the engine is restarted.
V63 or anyone I removed the oil pump again (just to be sure I did the job right the first time) and this time I noticed a hex head plug in the block just above the oil pump housing. Does anyone know what this is? If I remove the plug does that give me access to see anything with my camera scope?
Since I removed the pump again, I noticed that about 90% of the petroleum jelly was gone from the gears. Is it possible I did not allow the engine to run long enough to allow the petroleum jelly to dissipate thru the engine? I have a cheap camera scope and looked up the holes in the block as far as possible (not sure why I did this other than to try out the camera). I saw no blockages.
As I have said in the beginning of this post back in July, I am by far not the brightest bulb in the box, but I sure would like to know why I cannot get any oil pressure at all!
Thanks guys.
The petroleum jelly is there to help the oil pump itself create pressure, it does not have to go through the engine (although it will, diluted with oil) to do its job. We too would like to see the reason(s) for your trouble!
Since you have the oil pump off, take a rubber tipped blow gun, with the air pressure regulated to 75 lbs, pressurize the engine side of the oil pump passage in the block. Check the pressure reading on your mechanical gauge. It won't read 75 psi, because of normal clearances in the engine, but you should have pressure. If there is virtually no pressure on the guage, either there is blockage in the passage to the pressure guage or there is a galley plug, lifter out of the bore, or a rod bearing has spun and they are stacked on top of each other.
Another thing you can do is with the pump off, remove the pressure gauge, blow air through the oil presssure gauge hole and see how much air comes out of the block at the hole for the pressurized oil from the pump. Should be a lot of air.
Hey chopper1942:
I followed your instructions in the first paragraph of your august 24th post. I got no oil pressure reading on the gauge. I must say I had trouble holding the rubber tipped blow gun to the port, so I did loose a fair amount of air. Also, the gauge I was using was an oil pressure tester gauge, not say an under dash mechanical gauge to read oil pressure. I am not sure if that makes a difference, but I thought I would mention it.
However, I also followed your instructions in the second paragraph of your august 24th post and I got a ton of air coming out of the pressurized hole.
My question is, are these two different tests that check two different problems and that's why I got different results. Or are they checking the same problem, and I should have gotten the same result.
In my mind, and I have said repeatedly I ain't the brightest bulb in the box, if they are checking the same problem is it safe to blame the discrepancy on my not being able to hold the rubber tipped blow gun properly in place to get the gauge to move.
Got any other thoughts or suggestions for me to try next. All help is appreciated.
It seems to me the next step towards diagnosis is to remove the pan.
I'm just going to throw this out there, and disagree with something you've said several times here. You say you are not the brightest bulb. I disagree.
You are sharp enough to know that you don't know, and therefore smart enough to ask. And, you explain your situation quite well, which is something that we don't often see.
It sounds like you pretty much know the pan has to come off now. But,I have a couple of points. I may have missed this so I apologize if you explained it before.
Your gauge. Is it electric? Does it have a tube or hose going to it? Here is why I ask; I had an electric gauge that always showed low at idle or when cranking. It turns out that it was because I had a voltage issue that caused it to read low. Then, I used a wet gauge with a little tube going from the port to the gauge. I got nothing. Then I cracked the line at the gauge allowing the air to bleed out of the tube. Oil finally came out, I connected the gauge, and I was good to go.
When you crank the engine with the sender out, does oil come out? If you pull a valve cover, are thr rockers wet?
Good luck, and continue to keep us updated.
Jeff R
Thanks for the compliment, Jeff. I do try to be as detailed as possible, I have been told that sometimes I am too detailed, but hey I'm an old guy that requires a lot of detailed information in whatever I do (it drives my honey crazy, but she keeps me around anyway ha ha).
Anyway, back to the problem. I am using an oil pressure tester tool from Harbor Freight. It relies on oil volume not electricity for its reading.
Today I pushed air pressure in the hole at the block that goes into the oil pan (for the oil pump pickup tube). I heard (in the oil pan) what I believe to be bubbles so I feel that the pickup tube is clear. I am not sure why I did this but what can it hurt at this point.
I also removed the galley plug that is located just above the oil pump housing (see august 23rd post in this thread) and installed the oil pressure test gauge to the port. My plan is to reinstall the oil pump and see if I get oil pressure thru the pump to the gauge. I figure that would officially put the oil pump "working or not" issue behind me. Again, not sure why I am doing this as I have tried using what I felt was a good used pump and still got no oil pressure.
I get no oil whatsoever to the sender. From what I can see (with a flashlight down the oil fill) the rockers are dry.
At this time, I really have no interest in pulling the pan. But who knows down the road I could change my mind.
I will report back once I have the pump installed.
If you got a lot of air out of the port for the oil pump when you blew air into the oil pressure sender hole, you should get oil out out of the oil pressure sender hole when you crank the engine after you install the oil pump.
Try this. After you reinstall the oil pump, pull out the plugs so the engine spins faster, leave the oil pressure sender out, plug any engine vents to atmosphere, and while blowing air into the oil dipstick tube, crank over the engine. Pressurizing the crankcase will help the oil pump pick up oil. You should get oil out of the oil sender hole. If you get oil at the sender, reinstall a mechanical gauge and crank the engine. You should get a pressure reading. If so, install the plugs and start the engine. Should have good oil pressure if OK internally.
Thanks, Chopper1942. I will give it a try. I just have two questions: what is an example "engine vent to atmosphere"? and how much (psi) air pressure should I pump into the engine?
Any breathers, oil fills, or PCV outlets in the valve covers, or block. You don't need much. I would limit it to 20-25 psi. If you dont't have the pump on, start out low and see what it take to push the oil up the pickup. Then, maybe increase it slightly with the pump on.
If your shop vac is the type that you can switch the hose to blow that may be a reasonable way to put a safe amount of pressure in the engine. Personally I don't think its a priming issue so I would not bother down this path at this time. He had oil without the filter on so it was able to prime and the pickup must be mostly intact and not completely plugged. After blowing air backwards through it it may indeed need help getting going again so maybe it would be worth doing??
At this point with the info we have I'm thinking there must be some oil pressure or things would be making a lot more noise or be a lot more stuck by now. We just don't know if there is some minor ish issue with the pump or pickup or if there is a major failure somewhere bleeding off the pressure.
Did we ever get the valve covers off and confirm that all the rockers are moving? I think I had the theory earlier that maybe there was a stuck valve at some point that bent a pushrod which let that lifter pop partially out of its bore. The lifters are plumbed into a main oil line and would bleed off a lot of pressure if one wasn't in its bore. Maybe we already ruled that out? I could be mixing up threads.
TJ, that is my concern also. If he can get a lot of oil out of the pressrue port but it won't build pressure, then he probably has a major internal leak, ie: lifter out or stuck up in its bore or a galley plug inside the timing cover has popped out. The galley plugs are usually staked in, so I would lean more towards a lifter out of its bore, especially if it misses when running.
Hi Chopper and TJ. I am going to first try choppers latest idea. If it works great (however I have the feeling I will be removing the valve covers). If not, I will pull the valve covers and confirm if the rockers are moving. Based on what I find I guess the next step will be to pull the intake, but I will report back before I do that. I probably won't get back to the project until late next week. I will let you guys know the outcome.
Another update: Good afternoon, guys/gals. Well, I tried Chopper1942's idea and still no oil pressure. I was about to throw in the towel and dump the project, but I thought what the hell let me try TJ's, idea. I pulled the passenger valve cover and found one nicely bent pushrod. So, I said dam let me pull the other valve cover and I found four nicely bent pushrods. They were really bent, and I was afraid that I would not be able to remove them from their bores. However, I used pliers wiggled them a little and they came right out. I must say at this point I was excited to finally find a definite problem. I want to thank you two guys, V63 and everyone else for the help, it was greatly appreciated.
I did notice that there was some surface oil on the heads, not much but it was not dry. Remember this car has been sitting idle since 2006. There was virtually no crud or sludge in the head at all. I looked down the pushrod holes and in the lifter valley with a flashlight and it appears that the lifters are still in their bores. I have some old pushrods and I am going to remove the rockers, install the pushrods and see what happens. I will also remove the other pushrods and check that they are not even slightly bent. Hopefully I will get to this over the weekend. I will post the outcome.
By the way what would make five pushrods bend like that? My first thought was maybe the old dog jumped a tooth, but if I remember correctly, I checked that the rotor was pointed to number one cylinder on the compression stroke way back way back when I first picked this car up.
While the engine was sitting for an extended time without being turned over, the valve have/had stuck in the guides. After you remove the rocker assemblies, take a 3# plastic dead blow hammer, if you don't have one go to Harbor Freight and get one (cheap > $10.00), and hit each valve on its stem. Watch the valve and see if it opens and closes. Now, rotate each rocker arm to see if they will move freely. Slide the rockers back and forth on the shaft. If they won't move, use the dead blow hammer to move them. Once they are able to move, slide them aside and if the shafts aren't badly scored, blow air into the holes, and then squirt oil in the small holes where the rocker rotate.
Pull out all the pushrods and keep them in order. Take a long wooden dowel and insert it in each push rod hole and measure the distance it travels. If it goes 1 1/2"-2" deeper, you have a lifter out of place. and you will need to remove the intake and valley cover to reinstall it.
Inspect the 4 head bolts that retain the rocker assemblies. Clean off the bolt shanks. If there is a sticky goo on the bolt shafts or inside of the stands, you will need to clean the passages in the block and heads. These bolts pass through the oil galleys and feed oil up to the rocker shafts.
The best thing to do would be to disassemble the rocker shafts and roll the shafts on a flat surface to make sure they are not bent. If you do this:
1. Mark the stands from front to rear: 1-4 and the up position
2. Get something you can use to keep the rockers in order from front to back
3. Remove the cotter key, wave washer, and washer from the front end of the shaft.
4. Remove the rockers, springs, and stands and keep them in order
5. Check the shaft for straightness and wear and if OK, clean the inside of the shafts with brake kleen
6. Check the rocker tips, push rod sockets for wear, and the lube holes for debris.
7. Get some engine assembly lube and lube the rockers, shafts, push rod sockets, and both ends of the push rods.
8. Take a long blow gun or attach a piece of tubing to your blow gun and insert it in each head bolt hole to the
bottom and blow air into the blind holes. This will blow out any oil in the bolt holes. IF YOU DON'T DO THIS,
YOU CAN CRACK THE BLOCK FROM THE HYDRAULIC PRESSURE.
9. Reinstall the push rods and rocker assemblies
10. Torque the head bolts to specs.
11. Rotate the engine by hand and watch the valve to see if they all open and close. If OK, install the valve covers
Good Luck! Let us know what you find.
Old stale fuel was probably the issue, it causes the valves to seize (glue) in their guides. Once they are stuck there is excessive play in the valve train that causes the pushrods to jump and get wedged ultimately bent. Chopper is correct VERIFY that the valves can compress as he outlined otherwise you will be wasting your time and parts. Typically the valves are practically welded into the guides in this scenario and the heads will need to be pulled and fully serviced, best news is the engine is 'non interference' meaning your valves should not be bent too.
If you remove the heads and take to a head shop I'm going to suggest about $500 for the pair to be rebuilt and fully serviced.
Wells guys I have come to the end of the line. I used Chopper's mallet test on the valves and the valves with the bent push rods would not move at all. The other valves were in working condition.
On the driver's side head, the first valve of each cylinder was stuck solid.
On the passenger's side head, the last valve of the last cylinder (back by the evaporator case) was stuck solid.
All lifters were in place with the exception of one, it was lying next to its neighbor. I was able to extract it thru the top of the head with a magnet, my thought was to try and somehow reinstall it without removing the intake. However, once I did the mallet test for the valves, I abandoned that idea.
I guess the next step is to pull the heads as V63 indicated. Even though I have a couple of used heads in the corner of the garage I have no desire to continue on at this time. I think I am going to let it sit as I originally bought it to use as a reference when reassembling my 1979 Coupe (another story all together).
I must admit that I did have fun working and solving the fuel system problems and the oil system problems. I was forced to go out to the garage and remove the dust on the toolboxes and get my hands dirty again (only kidding I wore gloves). I also liked chatting with you guys. Again, thanks for the help it was greatly appreciated.
That lifter laying on its side is likely a vast majority of your oil issue but it sounds like this engine has a lot of other issues. These engines don't usually stick like that especially when they are still in a car. Sitting under a tarp in the back yard sure but not in a car so this thing must have seen some bad wet stuff.
Sorry to hear that you are abandoning your project. You have come so far in performing the diagnosis of the problems.
Probably a good idea to walk away for a while. I think all the oil pressure issues are resolved with the lifter out of its bore. I would pull the heads and once off, soak stuck valves, by spraying PB Blaster through the exhaust ports onto the stems and let soak. Do this several times. Then set the heads on some 2x4's and smack the valve stems. They may come loose. If they now move, get a spring compressor and remove the valve springs and pull out the valves. If the stems are not scored and the seats and valve faces are not pitted or burned you could reassemble them and either use them later or have the valves and seats ground. You can now inspect the cyl walls for rust or scores. If the cyl walls look good and you don't have a huge ring ridge, you probably have a good short block assy.
If you are not going to do anymore with it for the time being, oil the top and bottom of the valve guides with oil and smack the valves several times to get some oil in the guides if you didn't remove the valves, put oil in all the cylinders, reinstall the heads, valley cover, valve covers, and intake using the old gaskets and just snug down all of the bolts. This will make sure everything is lubricated and sticking and rust won't become and issue.
Again, I'm proud of you taking on this big diagnostic process and resolving the issues!
This fleetwood looks a very worthwhile effort. I agree that the lifter launched out of its bore is likely the oil pressure issue.
Putting a set of heads on is not a horrific job. I (personally) like to mark and remove the hood on such a project. I think your hood should be aluminum?
I do have a good used 1977 425 complete in phoenix $800 but I'm confident your car only requires a head job. Call some local head shops for pricing estimates.
What is your zip code? Another option, Maybe post the project for sale on this forum
chopper: Thanks for the kind words. I enjoyed the process to this point.
V63: zip 19406 King of Prussia, PA. I have a set of good used heads from another engine, thanks for the offer. I agree the body is too nice to trash. The cloth interior is just as nice, the dash pad is not even cracked. I figure for now I will let it sit. Mabey in spring of 2024 I will move forward and pull the heads.
Sounds like a great plan to me. Let us know when you start on it. If you need any help or pointers, we are here to help!
Hi all, just an update to my project. I removed the rocker arms and have been spraying the valves with wd40 and tapping them with a dead blow hammer for the last month. I have finally been able to get all the valves to move. I did not have to remove the cylinder heads. With respect to the lifter that was out of its bore, I spent almost 2 hours using a magnet, screwdriver, flashlight and patience and was able to get it (the lifter) back into its bore. I did not have to remove the intake manifold; I was able to maneuver the lifter around due to the casting holes in the head. I replaced the six bent pushrods with used ones that I had from another engine. I fired the old dog up and to my surprise it started, the oil light went out and it sounded good. At this point I am dam happy. For now, I have no plans for this car, just glad it is running and driving (in my driveway). Again, I want to thank you guys for all the help in diagnosing this problem from the start.
Too cool!!! Congratulations!!! Keep marvel in the fuel!!!
Congradulations! I'm glad you had the patience and perserverance to see the job through. I would liked to have seen you face when the "old gal" fired off.
Great news, thanks for updating us. What's next?
Sounds like with your new skills you can have a side doing surgery where they work though a tiny hole.