Antifreeze lifespan

[cadillacmike68]

Silicate based - 2 years. DexCool, or its equivalent -5 years. Get a little test hydrometer to test if you like.

[Daryl Chesterman]

Silicate based - 2 years. DexCool, or its equivalent -5 years. Get a little test hydrometer to test if you like.

The hydrometer will only test the freeze point of the coolant and the anti-freeze property doesn't deteriorate like the anti-acid property does. What goes bad in the coolant is the fact that the coolant interacts with the metal in the engine and gradually turns acidic (this process is called electrolysis).  It is the additive in the antifreeze that deteriorates, and keeps the coolant from turning acidic.  The best way to test the acidity of the coolant is to use test strips.  Fleetguard makes these test strips in packages with 4 test strips and they are available from Amazon.

Fleetguard coolant test strips

Using the test strips is something that has to be done very meticulously as the process has to be done exactly as instructed or the results are not valid.   If you are only checking for the acid condition of the coolant, identify which segments of the strip corresponds with that particular test.  Dip the strip and  place it on an impervious surface for 45 seconds, then immediately (within 30 seconds) compare the colors (side by side) to see where on the spectrum of colors is the same as your strip.  This will determine the level of anti-corrosion additives.

Here is a YouTube video demonstrating the use of the Fleetguard test strips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43Mogbn1Flk

Fleetguard sells a Supplemental Coolant Additive (SCA) to recharge the anti-acid portion of your coolant, and it can also be purchased on Amazon.  Using the instructions on the back of the SCA bottle, you can add enough of the SCA to bring the level of protection back to the original standard.

Fleetguard Supplemental Coolant Additive

By using the test strip method and using the Supplemental Coolant Additive, one does not need to change their coolant every 2 or 3 years (in the case of ethylene glycol antifreeze) and this saves time, expense, and the problem of disposing of used antifreeze.  If your coolant is rusty looking, it is best to drain, flush, and start with new antifreeze and then monitor the acid level every year and add SCA according to test results.

All of the above applies ONLY to ethylene glycol based antifreezes.  Propylene based antifreeze testing and maintenance is completely different.  Even the testers are different as the specific gravity of each is different.

Daryl Chesterman

[Cadman-iac]

  Thank you Daryl,
You have answered the questions I had earlier, and raised another.
That's great that you can get the SCA for the ethylene glycol, (green) antifreeze. I wasn't aware that it was possible to refresh antifreeze.
I've been looking for those test strips. Are they all pretty much the same, or are there any that are better than the rest?
The one you linked states it can test the temperature protection level, but doesn't seem to say anything about the acidity test. Am I missing something here?
I do have a tester that draws antifreeze into it that tells you what temperature level it's good for.
 So these strips will do the same thing?
I definitely need to get something that will test the acidity, but I'd like to be sure whatever I get can do that.
Thanks for stepping in and explaining things.

Rick

[Cadman-iac]

Daryl,

From what I can tell, the fleetgard kit CC8997 is the one that tests acidity. It's a 4 way test versus the 3 way test that the one you linked to has.
I'm only going by what I'm reading about these on their website. Can you verify if I'm understanding this correctly?
Thank you again for your expertise.

Rick

[Daryl Chesterman]

Rick, note that the strips you refer to in your post # 23 refer to OAT (Organic Acid Technology) antifreeze, and are a 4-way test strip.  I don't think these are appropriate for the green ethylene glycol antifreeze.  The molybdate and nitrite are the anticorrosion additives that "wear out" and what the strips test for in the 3-way strips used for ethylene glycol antifreeze.

 

Thank you again for your expertise.

I am far from an expert—I only know what I was taught by a Prestone representative when I worked at NAPA.  The whole antifreeze thing can be very confusing, with all of the different chemical technologies, colors and brand formulations.

Here is a video by a Fleetguard representative demonstrating the use of the test strips.  I gave some incorrect information in my previous post, and I will go back and edit it to make that information correct.  The main thing is to follow the instructions "to the letter" to get the correct results .

Edit to add:  Be sure the test strips have not expired—there will be an expiration date on the package!

Daryl

[Cadman-iac]

  Hey Daryl,
I need to know if the 3 way test strips test for the PH level. The package says it tests
 the freeze point, the Molybdate, and the Nitrate. Is the Nitrate a PH test? I don't know.
 Doesn't the PH test indicate the acidity of the coolant?

 The 4 way test says it does test the PH level as well as the 3 others.

 As for the designation, the label on this new 15 year antifreeze says it's compatible with OAT, POAT, HOAT, IAT, and a bunch more, whatever they mean.

 I watched both videos for the 3 and 4 way strips, and another one that I don't recall the title of, and according to the video if your antifreeze is low on the additives, you drain out a portion depending upon how much it's lacking, and add new coolant to refresh it. Now they didn't say anything about this CSA stuff, so I don't know if it's necessary to drain out as much because the CSA I'm guessing is a concentrate.
 But am I on the right track here? Or am I missing something here?

 Thanks again for chiming in on this, I really appreciate your input.

 Rick

[Cadman-iac]

  It was mentioned that electrolysis is the cause of the antifreeze becoming acidic. Here's a question.
I have 2 vehicles that I put rebuilt engines in and had only ran them long enough to ensure that everything was working properly. I then pulled the batteries out and they have been sitting in storage with the new coolant for a number of years now.
Without a battery and not being run, is the coolant still going to turn acidic, or does this process require a battery to occur?
Should I be worried about the coolant causing damage in these two vehicles?

Rick

[TJ Hopland]

I'm certainly no expert but I believe having a battery connected in the car has pretty minimal effect.  Its that the different materials in the system and the coolant themselves form a battery.  A battery is just 2 different metals which pretty much any car will have to some degree and some sort of a fluid or gel or membrane between those metals.

I would think sitting would slow down the process but I don't know.  You would guess the fairly quick heat cycles and the circulation would be bad but who knows maybe it slows the process?   I wonder if to get an accurate reading on a stored engine if you would have or want to spin the water pump or add some external pump say in the heater hose circuit to circulate the coolant? 

Looking at some of the test strips that are aimed at fleet and heavy equipment makes me think we need to read carefully what sort of coolant they are made for.  That sort of stuff hasn't used classic green for years.  I guess now that I say that cars really haven't either.

I will have to go look at my inventory and see if the bottles say what I have on hand.  I am assuming the 'green' is still ethylene glycol but maybe not?  Propylene glycol I think is pretty common base for the newer types.   I know I have green, dex, blue Asia, and I think some pink that is Europe?

Another question does it age on the shelf?  You would think no sitting in a closed plastic container but maybe some of the ingredients start reacting as soon as they are mixed?  So when you do use it part of some process has already started and may change further reactions?

[Big Fins]

Just to note, Fleetguard is the OEM product distributor for Cummins diesels. Heavy diesels with displacements of 10 liters and more put a lot more strain on the chemical makeup of the anti-freeze/coolant than a gasoline engine will. Diesel engines pulling loads of 50,000 pounds create combustion temperatures far exceeding a gasoline engine. The coolant is then run through a 4 core radiator and is rapidly cooled back to 180F - 195F.

This rapid change can quickly degrade the coolants ability. The coolant in these diesels should be changed every 3 years or 300,000 miles, or you can run the series of tests and buy another 2 years out of it with a can of the SCA additive. These engines also use a chemically charged coolant filter that regenerates some of the additives so adding SCA's isn't needed as often.

Today's motor oils are pretty much the same. It's the additive package that degrades. Tests have shown that simply draining 1-2 quarts out of a 6-8 quart pan and then adding new oil brings the additive package right up to OEM specifications for that engine.


As for an engine to just sit with coolant in it for years and never have it circulated, that can't be good for the coolant or the engine.

[Daryl Chesterman]

There are questions being asked here that are beyond my knowledge, so I would suggest that if any of you want to pursue this further, you should contact the manufacturers of the antifreeze in question and get their technical people to answer your specific questions.

Daryl Chesterman

[Cadman-iac]

  Yes, all very good questions TJ. We probably need a chemist to get the answers about all this.
I have always used the green stuff, although I had been tempted to try Dexcool until vehicles started coming into the dealership with what looked like mud in their cooling systems. It was assumed at the time that maybe someone had mixed green with orange, (which we had been told was a big no no), or that the dexcool didn't live up to the hype.
As someone else here pointed out, air in the system would cause this too.
So as I knew that the green coolant didn't have these issues, I've just stuck with it since.
I see your point about dissimilar metals being a catalyst for electrolysis though. I didn't consider that, thinking that if it wasn't run, it shouldn't have a problem, and without a battery, well....? I believe I need to rethink this.
I'd still like to get some answers to these questions though so I can avoid any future issues.

As to your question about issues in the jug before being used, (shelf life basically), this newest ethylene glycol stuff I picked up claims to last 15 years in the vehicle, so I would imagine that there wouldn't be any deterioration in the jug. But again, that's an assumption on my part.

Something I found interesting about this newest coolant, is on the back of the jug it states "This product is designed for at least a 56/44 mixture. To mix to 56/44 mixture, mix 1 gallon of Prestone Platinum concentrate and .78 gallon of water".
Now how many people are going to be that precise? Especially considering that you can't be sure that everything is drained from the system before you refill it.
I install pet-cocks in both sides of all my engines so I can drain the blocks as much as possible, but even that doesn't guarantee it all comes out.

Here's another question.  If you were to use 100% water or antifreeze, (just for a hypothetical here), would you still get the electrolysis from the dissimilar metals? My guess would be yes, but I'm honestly not sure.

  Rick

 Edit: one reason why I left the coolant in these 2 vehicles was because if I were to flush the systems with water and then drain them there's still the possibility of some water remaining in places, and I didn't want to risk it freezing and causing damage that way.

[Cadman-iac]

There are questions being asked here that are beyond my knowledge, so I would suggest that if any of you want to pursue this further, you should contact the manufacturers of the antifreeze in question and get their technical people to answer your specific questions.

Daryl Chesterman

 What are the chances of anyone taking the time to answer your questions concerning any of this?
 I'm a pessimist when it comes to dealing with a big company.
 But that's a good suggestion. I'll give it a try and see what kind of response I get.

 Thanks, Rick

[Cadman-iac]

   I need to order the test strips and do the tests.
 I have 2 Suburbans, and I checked the logbook on the other one yesterday, I had flushed and changed the coolant on it the same month I did the first one. But the second one only has 15K miles on it in the 7 years since. So it will be interesting to see if there's any difference in the testing between the two.
 And just for reference, the one with 35K on the coolant is a 1988, the one with 15K is a 1990, both have the same engine, both have the exact same radiator that were installed at the same time, so basically identical vehicles with differing mileage.
 When I have the strips I'll post the results.
 I'll also post the results for the 2 that have been sitting for years. Should be interesting, and hopefully good news.

 Rick

[James Landi]

While the "acid test" is one important element, in my limited experience with 2 dozen or so decades' old GM 8 cyc
cylinder engines, I found only a couple to be acidic. In my experience dealing with decades' old, well used Cadillacs, the hidden demon is radiator scale and engine block rust particles... the culprits rear their ugly head during summer weather  extended driving when you get stuck in traffic.  I've had several radiators blow out their side tanks in such driving conditions, and this hazard is not limited to those cars with barely glowing idiot lights... one of my '56 SDVs burnt exhaust valves when the temperature gauge was at the halfway point... removal of the head revealed that the water jackets were clogged around the two cylinders whose exhaust valves failed.  So de scaling the radiator, aggressively flushing the engine block, plus an inline coolant filter would provide "peace of mind" regarding old cooling systems.   

[Cadman-iac]

  Strips ordered, should see them hopefully by Monday at the latest. I didn't go with the fleetgard ones after all  as they didn't make it clear that they check the PH level anywhere in their description.
 I chose one from Robinair as their description specifically states that it tests the PH level in addition to the glycol percentage and the freeze point. (Not that the freeze point is all that important in southern Arizona).
 
 Rick

[35-709]

"To test antifreeze with an ohmmeter, also known as a multimeter, you can follow these steps:
- Set the multimeter to DC volts less than 20 volts
- Touch the black lead to the negative battery lead or chassis ground
- Place the red lead into the coolant
- If the reading is less than .4 volts, the coolant is in good condition"

[Cadman-iac]

I got the test strips last week, but haven't had time to get back here to post the results until now.

I got the Robinair 75134 kit because it comes with 70 strips and I have 6 different vehicles to test, and I wanted to do a before and after test to see what if any difference new coolant will make.

These strips are supposed to check the glycol percentage, which equates to the freeze point/boil-over protection.
  It also checks the PH level, and what they refer to as the "reserve alkalinity".
Vehicle #2 tested down to a "-62°", a reserve alkalinity of approximately "3.2", and a PH of "8.0".
According to the instructions for the strips, this 7-year-old coolant was still in good shape, except for the reserve alkalinity.
The acceptable range for the alkalinity is anything above "6.5", and the acceptable range for the PH is between "6.5 and 11".
So according to the strip, the coolant needs to be replaced. I drained, flushed, flushed and refilled the system, using Prestone Platinum concentrate, and plain tap water in a mix of approximately 65/35.
The previous coolant was the same brand, but I had used distilled water that time at a mix of 70/30 antifreeze/ water.
So after taking all day to drain/flush/drain/flush/drain and fill, having to let it cool between flushings so I didn't crack anything, I retested the new coolant to be sure it passed muster. Imagine my surprise when I read the strip. It shows that the freeze protection level is still an acceptable "-62°", the PH is quite acceptable "9.0", but the kicker is the "relative alkalinity" at "3.5".

Now I've read recently that you should never use distilled water in your cooling system because of the effects that the distillation process has on the molecules in the water. I was afraid I really screwed up last time by using it, but I think because I was running such a high percentage of antifreeze I dodged a bullet.
What I didn't expect was the near zero amount of change in the "reserve alkalinity" since everything was replaced and the system flushed twice.
The recommended water to use is softened water because the process doesn't remove the electrons or whatever it was that cause the problem with distilled water. Has anyone ever heard this before?

My question to anyone who may know is, "what does this reserve alkalinity mean and why would it not change after all this"?

The other 5 vehicles all tested within the same range as the example above. I serviced 1 other one, but the results are identical to what I got above.
My guess, this reserve alkalinity portion of the strips is a gimmick to get people to replace their coolant.

NOTE: I'll mention that Vehicle #2 is a Suburban, and the other, Vehicle #6, is a '53 Ford tractor. Yes, I know they're not Cadillacs, but they use the same coolant regardless.

So what's going on here?

Rick






 I need a wrap-around camera to take a picture of the instructions on this bottle.

[TJ Hopland]

I dunno. What happens if you do some small test mixes on the bench?   Maybe what we buy really wants to be 50/50 to get it all in balance?  Have any friends with water softeners?  Have any friends that have a jug of 50/50 pre mix you could test?

Whats the difference between Prestone all and platinum? Both just sound so perfect and amazing on their website I don't even remember the question. 

I have a friend that is some sort of engineer and all he does is heat exchange stuff.  I once asked him about automotive systems and magic things like there is or was something called water wetter.  He said without getting exotic/expensive/toxic the best coolant as far as heat exchange would be pond water.  He said that obviously creates clogging and corrosion issues so its not ideal but his guess was that the wetter stuff was minerals and such that would be found in the pond water.  I didn't understand it but something about impurities really increases how well the exchange works.  So that kinda fits the softened water theory.

[35-709]

I collect rain water.  Have been using Zerex GO 5 - guaranteed for 5 years or 150,000 miles - but I see now that Prestone has a 15 year or 350,000 anti-freeze.  I'll be checking that out further when my next flush is due.   

[Cadman-iac]

  TJ,
I'm not so sure about the 50/50 requirement, it's the easiest to do, but, at least in the past, they put a chart on the container that gave you the protection level for a given percentage of coolant. They don't mention anything about the ratio having an effect on the "relative alkalinity". In fact, it's not even mentioned anywhere on the antifreeze container. The only place that I've ever seen it mentioned is on the test strip container.
As for knowing anyone with a water softener, I'm not that lucky.
I figured it would just have to work with the local tap water. I'm on my own well system here, so no chemicals are added to it, just good old hard ground water.
I actually do have a gallon of the premixed coolant that my wife had picked up by mistake, I'll check it and report the results. That's a good suggestion, thanks.


The question was, what does this "reserve alkalinity" actually mean, how does it affect the coolant, is it something that I should be concerned about, or is it just a gimmick to get people to replace their coolant?

35-709,
I would love to use rainwater, but it rains so infrequently here I'd be waiting for months before I could gather enough for 6 vehicles. This is something that you would have to plan out and prepare for. Great idea though. I'll have to think about that.
Thank you both for your replies.


  Rick