I have a Series 63 with a Hydra-matic transmission and I want to change the rear seal.
I've been reading several posts on removing the differential on the '41 Cadillacs.
Some say the driveshaft slips out at the transmission and others say the early '41s were bolted in. I disconnected the driveshaft from the pinion end.
The attached photo shows a bolt head circled with the bolt toward the transmission end housing.
Does this mean my driveshaft is bolted in? If so I'd like to know what I'm getting into if I decide to remove the bolt. I tried pulling the driveshaft out but it isn't moving.
Thank you
Driveshaft is bolted to the flange. Remove the bolts then you have the large nut holding yoke to the output shaft now it gets tricky to do the R and I, a shop manual should be utilized for the next steps.
Hi John,
The seal is pretty straight forward . With the yoke out you need to make or buy a seal removing hook to pull the seal out the with some gentle finessing tap the new one back in. At least that's how my 46 went 4 years ago.
Tim
Quote from: toybox on March 26, 2024, 01:17:42 PMHi John,
The seal is pretty straight forward . With the yoke out you need to make or buy a seal removing hook to pull the seal out the with some gentle finessing tap the new one back in. At least that's how my 46 went 4 years ago.
Tim
I was able to remove the yoke and the seal. The seal was not original and came out pretty easily by prying with a screwdriver.
Next step is important, how to tighten the yoke nut to the proper torque.
Quote from: Dave Shepherd on March 26, 2024, 02:49:54 PMNext step is important, how to tighten the yoke nut to the proper torque.
Dave, I haven't seen any torque specs for the yoke bolt so I measured the torque with my torque wrench starting at 30 ft. Lbs. I gradually increased the torque until the bolt turned. The torque was set at about 65 ft lbs.
I'm not sure if that is correct but that's what I came up with.
Let me know if you have any specs on it connecting to the hydra-matic.
The yoke also is grooved a bit (photos) but not deep. Should I be concerned?
Thanks
Should be 85lb/Ft, use some medium Loctite on the threads, sparingly.
Quote from: Dave Shepherd on March 26, 2024, 03:46:01 PMShould be 85lb/Ft, use some medium Loctite on the threads, sparingly.
Thanks Dave,
Should I be concerned with the groove and very light pitting on the Yoke? The groove formed where the seal rubber meets the yoke. It's not a deep groove. I'm just wondering if the seal could leak if not smooth.
Fit the new seal onto the yoke, see if it seals well in the worn area, also compare the new seal to the old, see if the contact area is at the same position.
Quote from: Dave Shepherd on March 27, 2024, 08:24:16 AMFit the new seal onto the yoke, see if it seals well in the worn area, also compare the new seal to the old, see if the contact area is at the same position.
The contact area of the 2 seals is the same. The seal also seems to fit snug in the worn area, although it is tighter in the area of the woke shaft that is not worn. That should be expected since it is not worn.
Sounds like you should be ok, as there is no pressure at that area, just static seal. Now they do make repair sleeves, particularly for harmonic balancers, you may want to look into that.
I would install a Speedi-Sleeve. I have used them on a number of applications with excellent results. I just put one on the harmonic balancer on my 1962 Olds F-85.
Measure the diameter of your yoke then go to the SKF website and look up the correct part number for that size. The SKF site also has all the info on how to install (pretty simple). Once you have a part number, just put it in Google search and a number of vendors will come up.
https://www.skf.com/us/products/industrial-seals/power-transmission-seals/wear-sleeves/skf-speedi-sleeve
John, My big concern would be how (smooth) the yoke is where the seal rides if that is not a polished finish the the seal wont last and this job will be for nothing. As you said someone replaced it already and I assume you are replacing it because it failed again. Some 1000 grit wet paper and a little time will go along way here. Also some sealer around the outer perimeter of the seal where it seats to the housing is a good idea.
Tim
Quote from: LaSalle5019 on March 27, 2024, 09:38:20 AMI would install a Speedi-Sleeve. I have used them on a number of applications with excellent results. I just put one on the harmonic balancer on my 1962 Olds F-85.
I have a question about using Speedi-Sleeve. I watched a couple videos and it makes sense as far as having a smoother surface for the seal. My question is what prevents fluid from leaking between the new sleeve and the shaft since the seal is on the outside of the sleeve? Do you apply sealant on the shaft before installing the sleeve?
Thanks
A properly sized repair sleeve is a semi press fit on the repair surface, so leakage not an issue.
I use Loctite Super Bearing Mount when fitting Speedie Sleeves. Never had any leakage.
Plus, real easy to fit using the supplied tool and a hammer. If I have to press it on further, I cut the end off the Installer, and use a tube the same size as the installer.
Bruce. >:D
Bruce, Did you know you could heat it in your kitchen oven to about 300 and it will just side on? Tim
I just want to make sure of something related to installing the sleeve.
The sleeve that matches my seal is 11/16 long and the shaft length is 7/8.
The sales person I talked with had no answer.
I watched a few videos and they all show tapping the sleeve until it stops at the end of the shaft.
In my case the area I want to cover is closer to the beginning of the shaft. If I tap it in as far as it will go it'll pass the damaged area.
Is it ok that the sleeve isn't tapped all the way on the shaft?
The yoke I'm referring to is in the previous comments.
To do that using Loctite super bearing mount, as Tassie suggested, will insure it will stay in place.
Quote from: toybox on March 28, 2024, 01:41:27 PMBruce, Did you know you could heat it in your kitchen oven to about 300 and it will just side on? Tim
G'day Tim,
But, the heat will probably have a deleterious effect on the sealant.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 28, 2024, 02:22:34 AMI use Loctite Super Bearing Mount when fitting Speedie Sleeves. Never had any leakage.
Plus, real easy to fit using the supplied tool and a hammer. If I have to press it on further, I cut the end off the Installer, and use a tube the same size as the installer.
Bruce. >:D
For the Loctite are you referring to their retaining compound? If so which did you use. There are several.
Thanks
There is only one Super Bearing Mount by Loctite as far as I know.
But, any sealing compound will do.
The thing about the Super Bearing Mount is that it fills up any imperfections under the piece being sealed, and this includes the worn points of the reason for using the Speedie Sleeve in the first place.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on March 29, 2024, 06:17:22 AMThere is only one Super Bearing Mount by Loctite as far as I know.
But, any sealing compound will do.
The thing about the Super Bearing Mount is that it fills up any imperfections under the piece being sealed, and this includes the worn points of the reason for using the Speedie Sleeve in the first place.
Bruce. >:D
They must have changed the name. Ill review the details of each.
Showing the before and after install of the Speedi-sleeve.
One question I have for you is: Does any part of the machined surface ride on the bushing inside the extension housing?
If it does, could the installation of the Speedie Sleeve interfere with the bush to shaft clearance?
Looking at the yoke fitted into the housing, the oil seal is right at the back of the yoke.
But the wear marks show on the forward end of the yoke. Not where the oil seal appears to be in the housing.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 06, 2024, 09:17:14 PMOne question I have for you is: Does any part of the machined surface ride on the bushing inside the extension housing?
Bruce,
There's no bushing that I am aware of. I also checked the master parts list. The seal is installed deeper into the tail housing after the bearing and the sleeved end of the yoke is installed over the splined transmission shaft and through the seal. The yoke is then secured by a bolt. The seal should ride around the sleeve.
This is somewhat similar to when I replaced the pinion seal in my differential where the yoke and cup are separate.
The transmission yoke has a built in cup that covers the end of the tail shaft.
Quote from: Dave Shepherd on March 28, 2024, 05:08:14 PMTo do that using Loctite super bearing mount, as Tassie suggested, will insure it will stay in place.
I want to verify something before I proceed with installing the new seal. Please refer to the attached photos.
I purchased this seal driver from EBay. It fits the seal and fits over the splined transmission shaft no problem.
My question is the length of the center of the driver. It is 1/2 inch long and the seal is 5/16 inch thick. There would be a gap of 3/16 inch between the seal and the bearing once I drive the seal as far as it will go with this driver.
I just to want to make sure that is acceptable.
Thank you
What a wonderful picture. Explains the rear bearing beautifully.
Looking at the wearing on the yoke, and the amount of room inside the housing, I would say that maybe there was no real need for a Speedie Sleeve, as the oil seal could be positioned at any depth to land the seal on a "better" part of the yoke.
Not sure if you need to put a bit of sealant on the splines to ensure that no oil can ever get out the back of the yoke if the nut ever comes loose.
Bruce. >:D
Looks good. You should have a nice leak free setup.
As a follow up to this I am back to square one. My rear tail shaft is still leaking and I took it apart again.
I included a couple photos as I found the original J-1354 seal driver on EBay. This driver has 3 layers. The top layer holds the seal. The middle layer fits into the inner diameter of the shaft and the bottom layer stops the driver at the end of the shaft.
The end result is the seal being driven into the shaft only 1/4 inch. I drove the other seal as deep into the shaft as it would go with the other driver I used.
The first seal I removed was also driven in as deep as it would go and leaked.
I would be curious to know if anyone thinks this might be the difference.
Thank you
Has the new seal not gone in far enough to meet up with the Speedie Sleeve?
Is there any sideways play at the rear bearing, allowing the yoke to move enough to allow oil to slip past the seal lips?
Could there be a crack in the extension housing?
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 19, 2024, 09:14:31 PMHas the new seal not gone in far enough to meet up with the Speedie Sleeve?
Is there any sideways play at the rear bearing, allowing the yoke to move enough to allow oil to slip past the seal lips?
Could there be a crack in the extension housing?
Bruce. >:D
Bruce, based on my measurements, the seal was on the sleeve. There also was not any play at all with the yoke when I tried to move the driveshaft after putting everything back together. I also installed a new u-joint at the yoke.
I also didn't notice any cracks in the housing, but I'll look it over in the morning.
If I use the J-1354 seal driver to install another seal, it will sit on the edge of the sleeve, but where the seal will sit the yoke is not damaged. I'm thinking about removing the seal that is deeper in the tail shaft and the sleeve before installing a new seal.
One thing that when looking at the original damage to the seal area on the yoke, it would appear that the seal you removed had been replaced many many years ago, as if the originally placed seal would have been back out near the end of the housing.
That damage to the yoke caused by the seal you removed takes a very long time the create, especially as this is a reasonably protected area, as against the seal on a Diff pinion, which is subjected to the forces of water and dirt and grime as the vehicle is driven.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 19, 2024, 09:50:51 PMOne thing that when looking at the original damage to the seal area on the yoke, it would appear that the seal you removed had been replaced many many years ago, as if the originally placed seal would have been back out near the end of the housing.
Bruce. >:D
Bruce,
You are correct. The seal I removed was not the original seal and the damaged part of the yoke is where that seal was placed.
By using the correct seal driver, the seal would sit on a clean part of the yoke, closer to the end of the tail shaft.
John, Did you put any ATF or some other lubricant on the seal and yoke during the assembly? and any sealant around the outer perimeter? to very important steps. Tim
Quote from: toybox on April 20, 2024, 08:16:42 AMJohn, Did you put any ATF or some other lubricant on the seal and yoke during the assembly? and any sealant around the outer perimeter? to very important steps. Tim
Yes. I used Loctite 620 retaining compound under the sleeve and Permatex #2 around the edge of the seal. I also used Silicone RTV on the yoke splines.
I would not use any Silicone RVT on anything to do with Auto Transmission Fluid.
I use Loctite 5900. An auto trans guy once told me that the only thing they use is either vaseline, in conjunction with the cork gaskets.
Engine oil is different to Auto Trans Fluid. And Auto Trans Fluid destroys RVT. Hence the 5900
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 20, 2024, 08:28:14 AMI would not use any Silicone RVT on anything to do with Auto Transmission Fluid.
I use Loctite 5900. An auto trans guy once told me that the only thing they use is either vaseline, in conjunction with the cork gaskets.
Engine oil is different to Auto Trans Fluid. And Auto Trans Fluid destroys RVT. Hence the 5900
Bruce. >:D
Good to know. I'll clean my splines while I have the yoke off.
Thanks!!
There should be no need for any sealant on the splines at all. Just put a bit of sealant under the washer and then the thread of the nut. This way, if you ever need to remove it, you WILL be able to get it off.
Then I am doing Differentials, I use a bit of Loctite Super Bearing Mount on those splines, as there is nothing worse than any oil leaking out there. With the Diff, I always use a puller to remove the Yoke. Diffs are easier to get at than a transmission.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on April 20, 2024, 08:42:40 AMDiffs are easier to get at than a transmission.
Bruce. >:D
I agree. I replaced my differential pinion seal a few months ago. The hardest part about that job was removing the cup.
RTV will not seal splines. Any oil before or after installation will work it loose and it can go places. I've had very good luck with "Rectorseal" for the last few years. This or similar stuff should be available at hardware store or plumbing supply stores. It is made for petroleum or fuel piping. The hardest part of any job is the preparation. In this case, you need to get the oil and RTV off of the spines and grooves in the yoke after they are already wet for it do do its best, but being for petroleum use it is somewhat forgiving. But the other part to be aware of is the parts that need lubrication (outer surface of yoke and actual seal surface) need a coating of grease or lubrication when assembled. It's tricky to achieve both goals at once on a "wet" installation.
Another thing that sometimes helps with stubborn sealing is use a copper washer under the yoke bolt head. Another hardware store item; they usually have an assortment to pick through. I guess I picked that up from working on the German cars....They love copper washers and "O" rings!
I noticed in this picture from post #26, that the end of the splined shaft looks like someone has beat on it with a hammer or something else, thus there is not a smooth sealing surface for the inside of the yoke to seal against.
https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?action=dlattach;fs=73948;attach=215659 (https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?action=dlattach;fs=73948;attach=215659)
You might want to examine the inside end of the splined yoke to be sure that surface has no foreign material. Since the lip of the seal on the outside of the yoke seals that surface, the only other place for a leak is where the inside end of the yoke seats against the end of the splined shaft. When reassembling, I would place a small bead of ATF resistant sealer on the end of the shaft, lubricate the lip of the housing seal and the corresponding surface of the yoke, then install the yoke and torque the bolt to specs.
Daryl Chesterman
I wanted to provide information from the manufacturer of SKF speedi-sleeves related to tail shaft oil seal 15142. There are multiple (5) sleeve options depending on the measurements of your yoke. 99147 is an option but not in the photo they provided.
It would depend on how worn your shaft is. The 99147 will work on a shaft size from 1.496" to 1.490", and will work with the 15142 seal. If your shaft is 1.497"+ then you would want to use the 99149, or any of the four listed below. These will all work with the 15142 seal.