Wheres The Ark?

[V63]

Another silly argument whether I have one or ten cars I or anyone who owns many cars
does not add to the cost of running the forum. Illogical try.
[/quote]

Perfect! I do agree! It was an analogy because I chose NOT to use silly or illogical in my opinions of opposing arguments.

[MultipleCaddies]

There are benefits to the national club.  For $25 you get access to the virtual magazine, membership lists, membership directory, tech section with contacts and the now the forum.

It does cost the club to offer this forum, so I've got no issue with making it a requirement now.  We will lose some posters and readers, gain a few members, and get rid of some whiners.  All in all, it's a win for me.

Will you regret your support for this policy if/when this forum becomes stagnant and irrelevant years in the future as a result?

Situations like this inevitably expose the underlying attitude that the powers that be have towards their subjects. "My way or the highway and if you don't like it you can leave, whiner" is a hell of a take when forums and clubs like this are already in decline. Some folks even recognize the fact that it is in decline, yet this uppity attitude still exists, and barriers still go up. I'd feel bad, if the further decline wasn't so predictable and preventable.

I swear, the old guard in the classic car world have just learned NOTHING about why certain parts of this world have been declining for decades while other parts of it prosper.

[Bryan J Moran]

Let's just give the new plan some time. 6 months. The change is coming in high season for driving, showing, restoring.   If the pitch is right - meaning as soon as a non member comes on to view and post, there is a pop up mentioning - not requiring - that to post you could (not should) join for $25 and get the following benefits.  Then provide a sample SS within easy access. 

What's the metric?  If membership has declined over the past year by 500, then that (hypothetically) means we should lose 250 members in 6 more months.  Again, just an example. 

If the tally is done in November and the club has a net gain of 100 members and 75% of that are electronic memberships then the change would be a success. 

Small sample size, but rather then pre-emptively calling it a bad idea that will fail, the right way to go is to give it 6 months. 

[Lexi]

I am inherently suspicious of those who think they have all the answers, no matter how well meaning they may be. Having watched the rise and collapse of various collector fields over the past 7 decades as well as being in the business and associated with others so employed, there are a lot of variables at play. It is hard to predict what will happen in the long run. The Administrators advise that very few dues paying CLC members actually use the Forum on a regular basis. So perhaps this system has been on life support/stagnant for quite some time? I would expect far less traffic after May 1st. Whether it rebounds is anybody's guess.

Permitting non-paying members continued full access priviledges would help keep traffic up, but at the expense of those members who are paying the freight to keep the lights on, so to speak. I won't use the term "Free Loader", as there are many valuable contributors who are not CLC members. As CLC Administrators have stated; the current econonomic climate requires changes. Personally, it is not equitable to continue to pay for someone's else's benefits, ad infinitum. That is not reasonable. But up until now that is what has been happening. Not sure what the answer is, but hopefully it can be sorted out in a manner that is fair and fiscally responsible. To borrow a line from the movie The Godfather, "After all we are not communists". So a charge for services seems reasonable. After a pilot period the Administrators can re-assess, and make changes to suit. Hard to comment further as I don't keep the CLC books. Clay/Lexi

[MultipleCaddies]

Because six months of damage can takes years to recover from once the damage sets in.

Anyone who has participated on multiple forums over many years already knows this is a failed policy. But people who are actually involved in the day to day runnings of the forum should absolutely have done their homework already and seen that nobody else runs forums this way. Of all the people, they're the ones who really should know better. They'd have done their research by going around to all the other big players to see how they do it, and see that none of them have gone to this model. Forums much larger than this one. This relatively small forum that is already in decline isn't going to be the trailblazer that somehow changes the entire game and successfully turns the proven forum model upside down. Like I said before, the benefits of membership weren't enough to entice some people to join before - forcing them into sure as hell isn't going to now. Many people (like myself) take it as a form of gentle extortion. Many others may simply feel their intelligence is being insulted by the membership benefits schpiel. Regardless, it's a model that is very, very likely to backfire. At least they won't be able to say they weren't warned in advance.

[MultipleCaddies]

I am inherently suspicious of those who think they have all the answers, no matter how well meaning they may be. Having watched the rise and collapse of various collector fields over the past 7 decades as well as being in the business and associated with others so employed, there are a lot of variables at play. It is hard to predict what will happen in the long run. The Administrators advise that very few dues paying CLC members actually use the Forum on a regular basis. So perhaps this system has been on life support/stagnant for quite some time? I would expect far less traffic after May 1st. Whether it rebounds is anybody's guess.

Permitting non-paying members continued full access priviledges would help keep traffic up, but at the expense of those members who are paying the freight to keep the lights on, so to speak. I won't use the term "Free Loader", as there are many valuable contributors who are not CLC members. As CLC Administrators have stated; the current econonomic climate requires changes. Personally, it is not equitable to continue to pay for someone's else's benefits, ad infinitum. That is not reasonable. But up until now that is what has been happening. Not sure what the answer is, but hopefully it can be sorted out in a manner that is fair and fiscally responsible. To borrow a line from the movie The Godfather, "After all we are not communists". So a charge for services seems reasonable. After a pilot period the Administrators can re-assess, and make changes to suit. Hard to comment further as I don't keep the CLC books. Clay/Lexi

Membership dues are by no means the only source of revenue for a forum like this. Ad sales, merchandise, and donations are the three primary sources of revenue for almost all internet forums, and thousands of forums are able to exist using some or all of those. The idea that a few members have to pay for everyone is just flawed.

[Lexi]

Why should I pay for someone else's Forum priviledges? Clay/Lexi

[MultipleCaddies]

Why should I pay for someone else's Forum priviledges? Clay/Lexi

Did you read my post?

[Lexi]

Of course I did. Do not patronize me. Unless already so positioned, why not run for CLC office and make the changes you feel are required. Clay/Lexi

[MultipleCaddies]

Of course I did. Do not patronize me. Unless already so positioned, why not run for CLC office and make the changes you feel are required. Clay/Lexi

Your reply indicated that you hadn't. I listed three other revenue sources that do not involve you paying for other's posting privileges, that are widely used by almost all other forums on the internet. Almost like you just ignored that part to continue on with your own point.

[MultipleCaddies]

And that in fact summarizes what so often happens when forums head towards failure: the powers that be simply do not listen to any opinions that counter their own. Totally inflexible and unwilling to adapt or accept that their way may be misguided or worse. That appears to be exactly what is happening here on this forum.

[gkhashem]

Membership dues are by no means the only source of revenue for a forum like this. Ad sales, merchandise, and donations are the three primary sources of revenue for almost all internet forums, and thousands of forums are able to exist using some or all of those. The idea that a few members have to pay for everyone is just flawed.

Let me get this right, donations are going to work when people will not shell out $25? Sure. Have you donated?

If you were in the CLC you would know they do sell merchandise (see the online store), they sell ads in the magazine, they have banner ads on this forum. Did you read them? They get some corporate donations from Cadillac.

These are not enough to pay all the bills, dues are  needed to keep the lights on. Sorry but this is the reality of the situation.

[Lexi]

Run for CLC office and put into place the policies that you think will work. I don't know what the answers are. I could be wrong, but we are in an era with a dwindling "gene pool" as the enthusiasts age out and market trends and interest are changing. The CLC has a tiger by the tail. Clay/Lexi

[V63]

Why should I pay for someone else's Forum priviledges? Clay/Lexi

If the perspective is that of paying for nonmember privileges? There is a glass 1/2 empty.

A better perspective is paying to be a member because it finds enjoyment.

[Lexi]

To be clear, I never resented any non-member's participation on this Forum. For a time I was in that position myself but joined shortly after. Yes, to get the full glass. Clay/Lexi

[Carfreak]

Of course I did. Do not patronize me. Unless already so positioned, why not run for CLC office and make the changes you feel are required. Clay/Lexi

Clay, that won't happen because J. Doyle aka MultipleCaddies is not a CLC member and has stated many times and in several ways he has no intention of ever joining. 

He just wants throw his opinions around and almost demand they be followed otherwise this forum will collapse and so will the Club. 

OMG - -  how did the CLC ever survive for over 40 years before this Forum was ever created?!?!   

We are a 66 year old club with Regions, Chapters, website with a few decades of electronic versions of our magazines, tech advisors, Authenticity Manuals, National Meets, Driving Tours, a non-profit Museum with assets over a couple million dollars, and so on - plus we have an online Forum.

FWIW, a nominal percentage of our dues paying CLC members use this Forum.

[MultipleCaddies]

Let me get this right, donations are going to work when people will not shell out $25? Sure. Have you donated?

If you were in the CLC you would know they do sell merchandise (see the online store), they sell ads in the magazine, they have banner ads on this forum. Did you read them? They get some corporate donations from Cadillac.

These are not enough to pay all the bills, dues are  needed to keep the lights on. Sorry but this is the reality of the situation.

Donations come typically from the people who participate the most and get the most out of forums. The key word is *donation*. Not *mandatory expense* that all must pay or ye shall not pass. Donations are voluntary. Organizations, forums, groups, what have you, often receive donations from people because they put in an effort above and beyond that some people get significant value from, so they donate accordingly. You simply will not get that kind of support from people who have not even used the forum yet. Casual enthusiasts and those who may just have a singular question about their car every year or two just aren't going to spend the money, they will simply ask their question elsewhere.

With all these efforts they're making, why can't they pay the bills? Is it because of mismanagement behind the scenes? Too many chiefs, not enough indians? Again, thousands - yes, THOUSANDS of forums are able to pay their bills this way, including forums much larger and much more active than this one. What is this forum doing wrong? Further still, why aren't you and others asking these questions instead of just toeing the party line? These are not my opinions regarding other forums being able to pay their bills, these are well established facts. You have just as much access to the internet as I do, you can confirm just as easily as anyone else. If my calculations are correct, 6,200 paying CLC members, at $25/person equates to $155k/year. That alone should way more than suffice to let this forum flourish, nevermind all the additional revenue. What on earth is it doing wrong??

I have not contributed to this forum, because I have rarely used it. I have, however, contributed to several of the forums which I have used regularly, some of them for many years, on which I have thousands of posts, and have used their classified sections to buy and sell things. The amount I'm willing to contribute varies depending on how much use I get out of the place and for how long. And I did not contribute to any of them prior to making my first post. Not even close. That's the reality for most people who use forums. Casual, off and on usage, where opening the wallet just doesn't make sense. There are some other forums which I semi-frequent that, despite being a valuable source of info at times, also have a very clique-like mentality about them. If you're an outsider and you rock the boat too much, you get ostracized. Forums like that don't get a dime of my money.

The whole purpose of donating is because you value something and believe in it enough where you want to support it, voluntarily. Much like tipping. If the service is good, you get a good tip.. AFTER the meal. Not before. When I walk into a sandwich shop and they have a big arrogant tip jar staring me in the face, or have the touchscreen where I have choose my tip or no tip, those places get zero tip regardless of the service. Why? Because the arrogance of asking for one in advance, and essentially guilting people into giving. Tipping culture has been in the news a lot recently, and people have finally started rebelling against it. This kind of policy here is really no different. Not a chance I'm going to contribute money to a forum without knowing what I'm going to get out of it. None of the benefits being touted here mean anything to me, as I don't go to Cadillac specific events, don't read the magazines, don't get involved other than possibly participating here. I go to much larger shows like Hot August Nights, where wide ranges of vehicles are welcome. I love my Cadillacs, but I love a whole lot of other vehicles as well, so if I'm going to contribute, it's going to be to those organizations that really give you a lot for your money. I'm just not seeing that here for me, and many other people see it the same. Several forums have fit that bill for me and I've contributed accordingly. None of them have made it a requirement, except the couple that have made it a requirement only for classified sections.

[MultipleCaddies]

Clay, that won't happen because J. Doyle aka MultipleCaddies is not a CLC member and has stated many times and in several ways he has no intention of ever joining. 

He just wants throw his opinions around and almost demand they be followed otherwise this forum will collapse and so will the Club. 

OMG - -  how did the CLC ever survive for over 40 years before this Forum was ever created?!?!   

We are a 66 year old club with Regions, Chapters, website with a few decades of electronic versions of our magazines, tech advisors, Authenticity Manuals, National Meets, Driving Tours, a non-profit Museum with assets over a couple million dollars, and so on - plus we have an online Forum.

FWIW, a nominal percentage of our dues paying CLC members use this Forum.

The club will survive just fine. The FORUM will not. But you knew that, you just want to try to twist the facts to suit your side of the argument.

[Carfreak]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah I am great blah blah blah I know a lot blah blah blah I have a lot of cars blah blah blah without me and other non dues paying members using the CLC forum it will cease to exist blah blah blah

Guess what. A lot of us have many cars, have been working on cars for several decades, can contribute a lot of knowledge, experience, tech advice, opinions, assistance, suggestions and humor but we are also paying dues to support OUR CLUB and the expenses of this Forum.

Off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you how many Cadillacs I currently own, would have to stop and count.  Wouldn't even try to remember most of them from over the last 40+ years nor the number of other GM and non-GM vehicles in that quotient either. Does that make me better than anyone else?  NOPE. Nor does you throwing out claims of your prowess and intelligence make you any better than us either -- it just makes you an egotistical self-proclaimed expert. 

You just want to twist the facts to support YOUR CLAIMS to suit your side of the argument.

Interesting how you allege poor management, bad administration and throw out almost-slanderous comments towards a group and a Board that you have no knowledge, no connection, no personal experience other than you have posted on OUR Forum.  Anyone who tries to tell me how great they are, how smart they are, their opinions are better than everyone else -  I usually stop listening.

The Forum will survive just fine. 

[druby]

Where ya at Barry Wheeler, can't believe you haven't thrown your 2 cents in !!!!!🤣