I did a search for this, but couldn't find what I needed-maybe some one can help.
I am rebuilding a 37 LaSalle engine I bought without the car. Block in great shape, but no lifters.
I bought a set of lifters and brackets on EBay, and a set was in the engine I am replacing (1947 engine).
They are all the same type lifter, but I find that the actual lifter part-not the tappet-are different lengths between the two sets.
I would like to mix and match, since I can't keep the the tappets on the same cam lobe anyway.
Should the lifter part be about level with the tappet body? Some were that way, but others stuck out about an eighth, and appear to have been running that way.
Maybe a new set? any experience with those?
Billp
Bill,
In all honesty, I would try to get some form of a matched set. It's not an easy job and you don't want to do it twice. You better check your heights for consistency, as there seems to be some issues with some of the lifters that are out there. Better make sure you have your 3" clearance between the cam lobe heel and your valve stem before you bother going any further. Once the lifters are in, you better check to make sure everything is operating properly and not binding or holding the valves open. Be careful and double check everything BEFORE any damage gets done. One of our Flathead friends just went through this and it wasn't good.
Bobby
All the valves are set at 3in. +- .005 or so. This isn't my first flathead, but the cam and lifters were all good in the others.
I thought all the lifters prior to late 48 were the same. I have com to find out that they aren't, different length plungers that went with different internal length tappets. There is some information on the Falcon parts guys site about this, but not very clear.
I'm going to call Terril's tomorrow and see if he can shed some light on this for me
Thanks,
Billp
Quote from: bpowell on December 10, 2017, 02:37:06 PM
I thought all the lifters prior to late 48 were the same.
There's 2 different styles. They obviously do the same thing, but if it were me, I wouldn't mix and match them as far as the body style goes.
Bobby
I bought a new set of lifters and bodies from Terrill recently and was informed that all lifters are the same from 1941 thru 47....but that they should fit my 1940 engine perfectly.
My mechanic put the new ones in my 1940 engine without adjusting valve stem length as had been fitted for the 1940 lifters that were in the engine.
They ended crammed in so tight that the valves would not close. None the less he tried to start the engine after the installation. Of course there was no compression. The new lifers were removed. 12 of the 16 lifter bodies had scoring from the attempted start. Now I am concerned about cam damage.
Be very careful with the process. It has cost me a bundle and I still don't have a proper running engine. I am including a picture for comparison of the new bodies after they were remove. Four were not worn.
He's the two different style lifters that were used on 346 Flathead engines in case anybody needs a picture to justify this. I have taken a few Flatheads apart and have seen both styles used..... :: ;)
Bobby
Here is one of the new lifters from Terrill which were removed. My mechanic claimed that they are .080 taller. I cannot confirm that. They appear to the naked eyed to be identical to the old ones removed.
Feltz told me that he has sold "gazillions" of them with no problems. I cannot return them, due to scoring and may be willing to sell at a big discount....after the first of the year. Lifters and bodies were $800.00.
Bob,
If you have a caliper or micrometer, do me a favor and measure yours, and I'll measure mine. :o Then we can compare to see if there's something going on there. Thanks,
Bobby
bobby,
I don't have such. But I will be going to our local airport later in the week. Am sure one of my buddies has the instrument. Will let you know.
Is the lifter body what we need to measure, the plunger or combination?
bob
Quote from: z3skybolt on December 10, 2017, 11:59:47 PM
Bobby,
Is the lifter body what we need to measure, the plunger or combination?
Bob,
Hi. Measure overall and then the body itself, so we can do some comparisons to the "New" ones.
Bobby
I think there were actually 3 different types of lifters in the 48 engine. I remember Hilmar in Germany getting into this in a big way and he found 2 types of that later 48 style. I think maybe they were doing final adjustments to the lifters that would carry on through the overhead engine and trying them out in the flatheads.
Quote from: Steve Passmore on December 11, 2017, 08:25:42 AM
I think there were actually 3 different types of lifters in the 48 engine. I remember Hilmar in Germany getting into this in a big way and he found 2 types of that later 48 style. I think maybe they were doing final adjustments to the lifters that would carry on through the overhead engine and trying them out in the flatheads.
Steve,
Do you have a picture of the ever elusive mysterious 3rd? ???
Bobby
Quote from: Bobby B on December 11, 2017, 09:30:36 AM
Steve,
Do you have a picture of the ever elusive mysterious 3rd? ???
Bobby
I used to have years ago but can't find it now.
See attached article from the March 1944 pg 8 issue of "The Cadillac Serviceman". It describe the change from 40 to 41 in the lifters. You can swap up and down as long as you use the entire assembly. In other words both the follower and the lifter. The issue in 48 is completely different where they started using a different style completely that is similar to the 49 OHV lifters.
To back up Brads article Hilmar came through with the pictures he sent me years ago showing the differences. As stated complete assemblies need to be used if changing out any of these. Two differences in the later ones and note the three differences in the earlier one. One should never interchange these plunger parts under any circumstances.
Bobby B.
They say if one wants to know what time it is.....check three watches. So we used a digital caliper to measure three of the new lifter bodies from Terrill.
They measured:
2.591
2.591
and
2.598
We measured two with two different plungers in separate bodies.
They measured:
3.176
3.161
The plungers were dry but there may have remained more or less compression.
Anxious to see what you come up with.
Bob
Quote from: z3skybolt on December 12, 2017, 05:03:21 PM
Bobby B.
They say if one wants to know what time it is.....check three watches. So we used a digital caliper to measure three of the new lifter bodies from Terrill.
They measured:
2.591
2.591
and
2.598
We measured two with two different plungers in separate bodies.
They measured:
3.176
3.161
The plungers were dry but there may have remained more or less compression.
Anxious to see what you come up with.
Bob
Bob,
Hi. I get the following from a full set:
Lifter Body 2.603"- 2.606 "
Lifter overall 3.045- 3.060"
Bobby
So the bodies are basically the same height. But...once the plungers are installed the new ones from Terrill are .100 to .130 taller. No wonder they wouldn't fit.
Something is amiss.
Bob
There is a step inside the bodies that the lifter plunger rests on. They are different depths depending on the plunger used with them. It seems from what I have determined, the later ones have shorter plungers and the step in approx. .915 down from the top of the body. On the earlier ones the step is approx. 1.150 down in the body. The ones Terril has are the later size. Need to keep the early and late together and it should be good.
The overall length should be about 3.060-070, so that when installed the lifter plunger would be about in the middle of its travel.
Bill p
Makes sense Bill,
However my measurement are later with later and old with old? So I don't know what is going on....except that my new "set" are much taller.
Or are you saying new plungers with old bodies or new bodies with old plungers...which defeats the purpose?
Perhaps I am confused.
Let me know how it works out for you.
Bob
Sounds like you might have new bodies with older longer plungers-that would make overall length excessive.
Billp
bill,
I am stumbling around in the dark here ...are the measurements with the plunger spring compressed or relaxed?
Thanks,
bob
Not sure I'm using the proper terminology here. When I refer to the body I mean the part that rubs on the cam shaft.
When I refer to the plunger I mean the whole part that fits into the body, within this plunger is the part that is spring loaded that the oil acts on to maintain zero lash. That is the part that has about .140 travel that should be about in the middle of that travel when everything is set properly and installed.
There are different length plungers that need to go with the corresponding body to result in the proper assembled overall length which is approx. 3.065 with the spring extended, prior to installation.
Billp
You guys are confusing me now :o Getting back to fundamentals, are you assembling the plungers while releasing the oil pressure within them?? I lubricate them, then insert a thin wire up through the hole in the bottom to unseat the ball bearing at the same time pushing the cylinder into the plunger and turning clockwise. this locks the cylinder spring in position. That's the correct length for assembly. If you do not do this the air trapped in the plunger will keep the valves open. This will also give you a longer overall assemble length.
Bill and Steve,
Bill your terminology is correct and understood by me. Steve . Prior to your posting I figured out the problem myself.
Gentlemen I am a novice. Not aware of even some simple solutions that are obvious to experienced mechanics but oblivious to those of us who are dealing with these issues for the first time. But the real crime here is not my ignorance but..... having paid an experience engine builder $100.00 per hour for time and labor...adding $7,000.00 in labor alone.... to the price of an engine overhaul....only to find that the "experienced" engine builder did not understand the valve train system of a Cadillac 346 engine....despite claiming decades of experience with the engine type.
In an attempt to replace noisy older lifters, during a complete overhaul, the mechanic tried to install a new set from Terrill. Among other things he filled the lifter bodies and plungers with oil before installing...which made it difficult for them to compress. The lifters were so tight that the valves would not close, during attempts to start the engine. This resulted in removal of the new ones and reinstalling the old noisy ones....where upon I found the new lifter bodies to have been scored by the cam on the bottom of the new bodies,
Which brings us to the current situation in which I found my assembled lifters measuring around 3.176 inches. Way too tall. About an hour ago, after a conversation with Feltz Terrill, I discovered that my mechanic had not locked the lifter plunger assembly together....the bottom spring, at the top of the plunger, was not locked into the bottom piece of the plunger assembly.
When I locked them in and made sure there was no air inside the plunger three assemblies were then measured. I got 3.076 , 3.080 and 3.072 inches. Much closer to Terrill's numbers of 3.070 inches.
I think that I am getting close to solving the lifter height issue. Now if only the cam was not damaged when the rebuilder tried to start the engine with the new lifters crammed in so tight.....and I can find a competent mechanic to try installing them properly.
Thanks for traveling with me through this issue. Bill I never intended to hijack your thread. My intentions were to offer you some of my experiences....ended up perhaps solving my own mystery.
Bob
Hi Steve,
Yes with no air trapped inside, and empty of oil. In this condition they are about 3.065-3.070 inches long fully extended.
This plunger has about .140 inches of total travel. So, assuming you have the correct 3.00 length from the valve stem to the base circle of the cam, when you install the assembly into position the lifter spring, not the valve spring, will compress and the inner plunger will move down in its bore about .070.
This will leave about .070 above and below the midpoint to adjust for wear and expansion due to heat etc. The reason the 3.00 inches is important is that that dimension should position the lifter in the center of its travel.
Hi Bob,
No problem at all.
I have also learned a lot. I'm sure all this was pretty common knowledge back when these engines were in use. Now we have to re-learn it all.
Billp
Quote from: bpowell on December 13, 2017, 03:35:17 PM
Hi Bob,
No problem at all.
I have also learned a lot. I'm sure all this was pretty common knowledge back when these engines were in use. Now we have to re-learn it all.
Billp
We learn something and help someone here everyday. ;) This is what this Forum is about. Bob, I think you're close now to figuring your issues out. Obviously, your Knight in Shining Armor's Ego overlooked this one little step, wouldn't take anyone's advice ( you know, because we ALL don't know what we're talking about), and unfortunately, it cost you Time, Money, and a lot of Frustration. We will discuss....
Bobby
[quote author=z3skybolt link=topic=147802.msg378887#msg378887 date=1512951
My mechanic put the new ones in my 1940 engine without adjusting valve stem length as had been fitted for the 1940 lifters that were in the engine.
They ended crammed in so tight that the valves would not close. None the less he tried to start the engine after the installation. Of course there was no compression. The new lifers were removed. 12 of the 16 lifter bodies had scoring from the attempted start. Now I am concerned about cam damage.
[/quote]
Sounds like you could have a good case against him?