‘41 Cad Starter - Flywheel - Hydramatic HELP! Please

[harvey b]

Does your car have the cooling fins on the bolts?,possibly they are a spacer of sorts too?.I would take the shut off switch and throw it as far as you can  ,they are nothing but trouble.try running a ground strap directly to one of the starter bolts as well,never have too many grounds on a old car.Also make sure it is a positive ground,it is weird to put the cables on "backwards" but that is how they are wired.Make sure the distributer shaft is not bent,a broken cap is odd,lots of room back there.  harveyb

[AdamS]

Hi Adam, Please don't be insulted here but you do have the positive bat terminal going to ground right? a simple and common mistake.  You should have cables of 1 or 2 gauge completing your starter circuit. That means a ground cable going from the poss. on the battery directly to a mounting bolt on the starter and feed cable going directly from the neg. terminal to the starter solenoid bat. terminal. Again these cables need to be 1 or 2 gauge. The flat braded cables work and look authentic but I have found them not to work as well as the round ones and the smaller braded  ones that go to the firewall and motor mounts are to pass current out from the engine block to those parts of the car . All the starter current needs to pass through the heavy gauge cables and take the shortest path with the least resistance. As for your clearance issues my 46 torus cover is a little different then yours so I will not say if your bolts are correct . They do look similar to mine and I didn't have time last night to check my spare starter for the spacer on the bendix shaft.  I will look after work today.  Tim

Tim:
The positive battery terminal is grounded to the frame, thru a cutoff switch. Cables are all 2/0, which is two sizes heavier than a 1GA cable. The negative battery terminal has a short 2/0 cable to the starter solenoid. There is also a 2/0 cable from the frame ground point to one of the starter mounting bolts.

[jackworstell]

I thought I saw on a previous post that the bolts are too long ?

Jack Worstell

[Alan Harris CLC#1513]

It occurred to me that there needs to be a way that you can verify that the starter in your car is the correct one for 1941. Secondly, if the starter is correct, I wonder if the internal parts inside the case are the right ones. I can understand the poor cranking, since the starter drive is hitting against the those bolts, it has to overcome that resistance. Over the decades, a lot of weird stuff can happen to a car. It is not farfetched to imagine that somebody installed the wrong starter.

[Bob Schuman]

Adam,

I think at least part of your problem is that the starter drive pinion is traveling much too far when activated, causing the clutch housing( the smooth round part just behind the starter gear) to rub against the bolts in the flywheel. There is an adjustment for that, described on page 76 of the service manual for your car.
The correct starter is #1107931, as shown on the starter nameplate. Of course, that is not proof positive that someone has not mixed and matched some of its components in the past.
Cadillac starters beginning with 1954 models had a collar to limit starter drive travel, but that was not used on designs earlier than 1954.
Another possibility is that the bolts in the flywheel should have their heads toward the transmission, not toward the starter as yours is now. The only picture I have is for 1942 transmissions, and does show the bolts with heads toward the transmission.

[AdamS]

It occurred to me that there needs to be a way that you can verify that the starter in your car is the correct one for 1941. Secondly, if the starter is correct, I wonder if the internal parts inside the case are the right ones. I can understand the poor cranking, since the starter drive is hitting against the those bolts, it has to overcome that resistance. Over the decades, a lot of weird stuff can happen to a car. It is not farfetched to imagine that somebody installed the wrong starter.

Alan:
The starter is the correct one and the guts all appear to be correct. More notes in my next reply.

Tnx.

[AdamS]

Adam,

I think at least part of your problem is that the starter drive pinion is traveling much too far when activated, causing the clutch housing( the smooth round part just behind the starter gear) to rub against the bolts in the flywheel. There is an adjustment for that, described on page 76 of the service manual for your car.
The correct starter is #1107931, as shown on the starter nameplate. Of course, that is not proof positive that someone has not mixed and matched some of its components in the past.
Cadillac starters beginning with 1954 models had a collar to limit starter drive travel, but that was not used on designs earlier than 1954.
Another possibility is that the bolts in the flywheel should have their heads toward the transmission, not toward the starter as yours is now. The only picture I have is for 1942 transmissions, and does show the bolts with heads toward the transmission.

Hi Bob:

The starter was double checked again by the auto electric shop. No issues. The drive pinion is set to its minimum travel.

Starter is back in the car, now. We put some witness paint on the Bendix clutch mech so if it is still rubbing on the flywheel bolts we'll be able to see that.

When I drove the car initially, prior to purchase, it was slow to crank and didn't start so easily. I wrote that off to the Optimas being weak. With the new battery, it was the same slow cranking. With the spark plugs removed the engine turned over super fast. Next, tried to remove the paint on the harmonic balancer to see where the timing marks are. Alas, the marks must have been pretty light and with prior rust on the damper the marks were not apparent. Alas, there's a "v" shaped notch cut into the edge of the pulley and that seems to be the 5degree advance mark. Loosened the distributor clamp, set cylinder #1 to fire at that mark - and presto! The engine starts in about 1/2 second, no choke, throttle or nuthin'. So this is progress.

[toybox]

Adam, Did you get this worked out?  I have my spare starter out and yes there is a spacer/washer that the pinion runs up against on the shaft. It looks to be about 3/32" thick (cant measure it without dismantling it) and is right up against the nose cone bushing. This is what stops the pinion from riding out to far.  Tim

[AdamS]

Adam, Did you get this worked out?  I have my spare starter out and yes there is a spacer/washer that the pinion runs up against on the shaft. It looks to be about 3/32" thick (cant measure it without dismantling it) and is right up against the nose cone bushing. This is what stops the pinion from riding out to far.  Tim

Yes, we did get this sorted out.
Somehow, I am not getting notifications when there are replies to my posts.

[Ron Parker]

These photos are of a 41 starter.Yours should be the same model number. The torrus cover bolts don't look right to me,I will take a photo of my parts car tomorrow.Ron Parker 

[Jay Friedman]

Tim:
The positive battery terminal is grounded to the frame, thru a cutoff switch. Cables are all 2/0, which is two sizes heavier than a 1GA cable. The negative battery terminal has a short 2/0 cable to the starter solenoid. There is also a 2/0 cable from the frame ground point to one of the starter mounting bolts.

6 volt starting systems need all the voltage they can get. Unlike 12 volt systems, a small drop in voltage between the battery and the starter can make a great deal of difference in performance.

As previous posters have written, grounding is particularly important. I think you could improve grounding by changing your cable from the frame ground point to the starter mounting bolt to have it run from the frame ground point to the commutator end plate. (The commutator end plate is the plate at the end of the starter that does not mount to the engine.)  This way the starter is grounded at the point where it needs it most. It is not difficult to do and along with another guy I have written a step-by-step article with tips on how to go about it that appeared in the Self Starter a few years ago. I can't post the article to this web site, but if you send me an email to jaysfriedman-at-yahoo.com (you can't write out email addresses on this web site) I'll reply with the article attached.  A number of CLC members with 6 volt Cads have re-grounded their starters this way with very good results.

Another possible source of voltage drop MAY be your cutoff switch.  I also agree with Jack Worstall and Bob Schuman that your flywheel to torus cover bolts may be too long and/or in backwards. 

[Ron Parker]

Here is a photo of my 41 parts car with Hydramatic . Your torrus bolts are too long,these don't stick out at all and I am pretty sure they are stock.

[AdamS]

Here is a photo of my 41 parts car with Hydramatic . Your torrus bolts are too long,these don't stick out at all and I am pretty sure they are stock.

Terrific, thanks @Ron Parker!

[Bobby B]

Adam,
 Hi. Those bolts look incorrect to me. When I rebuilt my engine/trans I used Grade 8, 3/8 x 24 - 3/4". These should NOT be protruding past the flywheel.
                             

[AdamS]

Adam,
 Hi. Those bolts look incorrect to me. When I rebuilt my engine/trans I used Grade 8, 3/8 x 24 - 3/4". These should NOT be protruding past the flywheel.
                             

Thanks!!

[Jim Stamper]

I agree, the bolts are too long, those aren't bolt heads in the picture, smaller ends to help start the bolts in the threads. Get different bolts or grind these off to a flush length. Should the bolts have a shoulder near the head where they go through the torus ? Do these ?   Jim Stamper, Grantham, NH   CLC#13470

[Jay Friedman]

According to my 1935-55 Master Parts List, on '41 Cadillacs those bolts should be 5/16 x 24 - 1".

[Bobby B]

According to my 1935-55 Master Parts List, on '41 Cadillacs those bolts should be 5/16 x 24 - 1".

My trans is a '47 so it could vary. I matched what was in there and just substituted new Grade 8. '41 might be different.....