Cheap 59 Eldo

[INTMD8]

Cars are only original once, after that all you can do is document what happened to them.

Original survivor near perfectly restored? Probably the best case scenario for a restored car but it breaks my heart to hear about it. I prefer they are left unmolested as long as they remain usable and presentable.

Rusted in half and patched back together? Could be a good car if done right and it could be junk.

Smashed as in the case of this one and repaired? I would be very skeptical unless I saw photos of the repair. Looks like a great job and I would take this car over a rusted out one that has a thousand places/chances of rust creeping back out.

Just have to consider everything on an individual basis.

[savemy67]

Hello all,

The damage suffered by the '59 was quite extensive!  Among other things, this post raises the issue of how to evaluate a car that has been in a collision and repaired.  I recommend Robert L. Sargent's "Automobile Sheet Metal Repair", 2nd edition (1969, Chilton Book Company). for anyone interested in knowing the concepts of auto sheet metal repair.  In a few hundred pages, Sargent explains all the elements of auto sheet metal and frame repair.  The book includes detailed discussions of various types of repairs, including the repair of a 59/60 GM flat-top that had rolled over.  The book does not cover painting.

From the photo's of Thor Karlsen's repair, it looks as if he has inherited some skill from his mythic namesake whose iconic symbol is a hammer.

Christopher Winter

[59-in-pieces]

Eric,
Perhaps I did not make my self clear.
I was not questioning the cars authenticity as a wrecked Eldo Biarritz - and pointed out I would have tried to buy it - had I known it could have been purchased.
Perhaps you have not read the pages and pages written in the past about the cost of repairs out strips the value of the finished product.
Hands go up in the air and espouse the futility of such repairs.
Then the lament that if too much is repaired and replaced, it no longer can be called a true Eldo Biarritz, but rather a Frankenstein monster.
I, Tibor, Henning and others would strongly not agree.
The comments about rusty floors and the like are in most cases more labor intensive that replacing sheet metal hood, trunk, fenders, quarters and the like.
I agree with who ever said the cost to repair this car would be less than $100,000, unless you can't do most of the work, and turn the car over to some resto. shop.
My soap box is now free.
Have fun,
Steve B.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Perhaps you have not read the pages and pages written in the past about the cost of repairs out strips the value of the finished product.

I have commented extensively on the subject as you are well aware.

At no time did I suggest all situations are invariably the same and therefore should always be evaluated identically. I have always endeavored to render the best possible advice based on the circumstances of the specific situation.

I hope that clarifies my position on the issue of whether or not to restore.

Then the lament that if too much is repaired and replaced, it no longer can be called a true Eldo Biarritz, but rather a Frankenstein monster.

This becomes a complicated topic

In the eyes of most DMVs and some marque-specific car clubs, the original cowl with body plate showing VIN is required at a minimum in order for car to be considered "legit". All other components are deemed "replaceable parts", therefore do not alter the car for legal purposes of titling, registration and so forth.

The VIN however is not listed on Cadillac data plates but the body number is and since the cowl tag, frame and engine are all unit-specific on Cadillac cars of this era, those particularly knowledgeable may well deem the car "legit" only if all three items specific to the individual car are present. 

Keep in mind these criteria vary greatly based on era and manufacturer (not to mention the individual person). In some cases, the engine number can be any one within a specific range of perhaps thousands of engine numbers and still legitimately be numbers matching, while with Cadillacs of this era, the engine block itself is VIN-stamped which means it is the only engine that can be in the car in order for it to be a complete "numbers matching" car.   

The extent to which these items affect value is an entirely different discussion altogether: For muscle cars, it is huge; for Cadillac, not so much - at least not for an engine transplant alone, probably not very much for a non matching frame number either. Naturally, the more valuable the car, the more bearing such issues are likely to have on value.  However, a 6467 data plate (and title with the corresponding VIN showing "E") would be required at a bare minimum in order for the car to be recognized as an EBZ for legal purposes; having the right frame with matching VIN in addition would pretty much solidify it.

I agree with who ever said the cost to repair this car would be less than $100,000...

That is what I said in reply #17. 

Thanks, Eric

[Scot Minesinger]

Wonder what the diminished value of the EB is after the serious wreck and repair as opposed to a never wrecked restored EB?  Got to be significant.  I would never buy a car that was that damaged.  Understand that anything can be fixed and also the only original once concept, so I do not think that every disadvantage of the crash was 100% cured.  Wonder how it drives at 70mph, squeaks/rattles and etc.?  There has to be more value in a never crashed 1959 EB that has been restored to a high standard.

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

I thought about that too Scot, bit I really doubt this car would spend much time over 70 mph tho. Mite get dirty.... or wrecked.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Look fellas, it's a genuine 6467 (as Henning attests so I'll take his word on it), it's all there, looks great, running, driving and shiny eye popping bright red. It's still going to bring a ton of money regardless because the demand for '59 Cadillacs is high, higher for a convertible, higher still for a EBZ. That's all the market cares about, rattle trap or not, busted up or not. 

Most '59s are pretty rattly to begin with, let alone a frame off car so that's pretty much a given on all but the finest, most pampered low mileage originals...like the Woodrose car I had that is now...sadly...in Dubai. 

-Eric

[cadillac ken]

The only question in my mind is why?

While these cars are scarce, they are available for purchase in #1 or #2 condition for what I'm pretty sure would be close to what it took money-wise to "repair" this one (hopefully correctly).  And as has been pointed out, there is the "diminished value" factor.

I've looked a similar cars (not eldo's) that I had to pass on once I put pencil to paper.

But with that said, some like a challenge and $$ is no factor and neither is resale.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

The only question in my mind is why?

While these cars are scarce, they are available for purchase in #1 or #2 condition for what I'm pretty sure would be close to what it took money-wise to "repair" this one (hopefully correctly).  And as has been pointed out, there is the "diminished value" factor.

I've looked a similar cars (not eldo's) that I had to pass on once I put pencil to paper.

But with that said, some like a challenge and $$ is no factor and neither is resale.

While they may be available periodically, I can only surmise the numbers worked to the buyer's advantage as he saw it - while at the same time giving him the option of choosing his own color scheme.

As Bob Hoffman said, it's a '59 EBZ. Somehow, someway the car will be back on the road again - and now it is.

[Scot Minesinger]

Eric,

I think you are right.  Most collectors of rarer cars highly prize cosmetics over mechanical condition, which is generally contrary to the posters on this forum, especially in the technical and authenticity section.  I have heard and seen some 59 Caddy EBZ drive off a trailer that I would not trust to drive more than a 1/4 mile at low speed, yet they win best of show, and have high resale. 

However, I think a badly wrecked car that has been repaired to a high standard suffers somewhat in diminished value over a never wrecked car in apparent equal condition.  I would never buy any car that at one time looked like that Cadillac because there are many others that have not suffered so horrifically.  You are more expert than me in this area, I just like to mechanically fix the mid 60's thru mid 70's Caddys.  I would be just as happy with a 1959 series 62 convertible with Eldorado stainless trim on sides as a 59 EBZ - I know not reflective of market at all.

BTW nice article on your 1962 Cadillac in OCW.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Scott,

The car would never appeal to original-purist-nitpickin a*****es like me.   

Ah but when we step out into '59 convert land always remember three things: It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. And while a lesser fate may well consign many other fine cars to the scrap heap of history, not so when talking '59 'verts, let alone an EBZ.

If it exists - they will come. That's just a fact.

*Thanks for the heads up BTW. That was 4 years ago! I forgot all about it. Can you save it for me?

[76eldo]

The scary part is that after some time goes by the horrific repairs get forgotten about and it becomes another mint 59 Biarritz in the eyes of someone who doesn't know.

While I respect the effort and the expert repairs I'd hate to spend big money for that car and then find out what it went through.

Brian

[Scot Minesinger]

Eric,

You caught me just before recycle, send me a PM with your address and will send it to you

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

Eric,

I think you are right.  Most collectors of rarer cars highly prize cosmetics over mechanical condition, which is generally contrary to the posters on this forum, especially in the technical and authenticity section.  I have heard and seen some 59 Caddy EBZ drive off a trailer that I would not trust to drive more than a 1/4 mile at low speed, yet they win best of show, and have high resale. 

However, I think a badly wrecked car that has been repaired to a high standard suffers somewhat in diminished value over a never wrecked car in apparent equal condition.  I would never buy any car that at one time looked like that Cadillac because there are many others that have not suffered so horrifically.  You are more expert than me in this area, I just like to mechanically fix the mid 60's thru mid 70's Caddys.  I would be just as happy with a 1959 series 62 convertible with Eldorado stainless trim on sides as a 59 EBZ - I know not reflective of market at all.

BTW nice article on your 1962 Cadillac in OCW.

Scot,
I'm not trying to pick on you, but you seem to be the most vocal proponent of diminished value. So... lets turn it around. YOU are out for a cruise in your 70 conv. sedan. You're involved in a horrible accident. You're OK, but the car is totaled. You have the choice to buy it back & fix it or let it go. The scenarios:
#1 you let it go & a guy from a nearby town buys it. He does a great restoration. You know he fixed it correctly.  You have to see it at  car shows & eat your heart out.
#2 You retain the car & do a great job of restoring it. You know it was fixed correctly.
Does the car have a diminished value in one or both of those scenarios??
Bob

[Scot Minesinger]

Bob,

It is fine, and yes the car has a diminished value in either scenario.  If my 1970 Cadillac was totaled, presuming form a serious front or rear collision, I would remove all the good parts (engine and all) and scrap it.  That is only because a 1970 Cadillac is just not worth the cost of repair.  There would be a lot of good parts, likely complete interior, climate control, wheels and tires, trunk, doors, and etc.  I would then buy another 1970 Cadillac and make it like mine was. 

I'm not advocating that the 59 EBZ should not have been fixed, just it is worth less than if it had not crashed so seriously.

Have been driving my 1970 Cadillacs every day lately as the weather has been spectacular!  This includes highway, stop and go traffic, traffic jams and etc.  It has just been a joy.  If it was wrecked badly and repaired there would be squeaks, rattles, vibrations and the like which would bug the heck out of me.  There would be some visual reminders too and it would bother me.

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

Scot,
I'm referring to your FOUR door convertible. Same answer?
Bob

[Ken Perry]

In a world where if you have a frame and a cowl tag for a 1959 Eldorado Biarritz people will build the car !!! It is no question that car was going to get fixed. I have fixed or restored quite a few wrecked cars over the years. That Biarritz still had a lot going for it,most valuable trim and rare Eldo parts were still good,not to mention the convertble parts. Way different fixing a wrecked nice car over a rusted or weathered car,so many parts were still nice on that car. I don't know where the myth of all fixed cars have isues driving,squeaks,rattles or viberatons ! (IF) something is fixed right,,it's right. Most parts destoyed on that car are common to all 59 Cads,except the quarter pannel,two door or convert only and Eldo side trim. Being it got a half quarter from what the pic shows,it is probably just a very nice driver,,,But what a nice driver ! With all the techniques for welding and straightening frames,that car should drive as good or better than it did. It should be disclosed that the car was wrecked bad and fixed.By the guy showing all te work he did,that doesn't seem to be a problem. It is worth less becouse of its past,but still a very bucks up car! They are not making any more and this one died and was brought back to life,,,Hats Off to him for saving it !     One last comment,,,IF you don't do that kind of work,looking at that Car,it looks like an imposible fix,but when you have the talent, skill and parts,amazing things can be done,,,,,Good Job !!! Ken Perry               

[cadillac ken]

just to clarify... I was in exactly the same situation regarding a car I had owned for over 15 years.  It was a nice car and had only about 1000 miles on the restoration (and I mean a complete restoration) and then it was creamed. Totaled.  In Florida you cannot rebuild a car that has been classified as a "total loss".  It can not be resold.  I could have however, kept the car (buy it back from the insurance company) and repaired it, drove it, and enjoyed it myself. 

But it simply did not make sense to me.  It was not a 59 Biarritz, but it was a very rare car-- now worth over 100K. Once figuring my work, and I would have done the work myself as I have owned a restoration shop for over 25 years, and the parts, I just couldn't see the point.  I loved the car and I had to replace it with a less rare model.  Do I miss that car? Not really, I have owned the replacement now for over 15 years, have enjoyed it immensely, and I have never looked back.

For me it was the prudent thing to do.

Like the point that was made earlier in this thread, I would not be happy about spending over 150K on a car that was repaired once with that extensive amount of damage-- a fact that will likely get swept under the rug at the time it goes for sale.

[wrefakis]

that is an original 59 Biarritz that has had collision repair done.

not the first time, it was crashed back in the mid 70,s while still in California

original vehicle with crash repair

cowl tag equals 59 Biarritz? are you kidding?

rusty car? original frame, engine and tags again that is a legit 59 Biarritz with restoration and rust repair

cut down re numbered pile of parts with repro cowl tag? welcome to the car business

point of info ALL REPRO cowl tags are incorrect for 59 eldo

my new beast

[willits]

The Eldorado was  at the Grand European last august in Switzerland.

We had a nice view of him following us in our '61 coming back from Santis.