Is EBAY worth it?

[jdemerson]

Here is an example of a commercial outfit that always has excellent cars listed along with their real site as advertised in the auction.  These guys list their cars until they sell, the cars never reach the reserved price, and they never appear to actually sell a car via ebay.  I doubt they are selling anywhere near listed price and I bet they get plenty of leads.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadillac-DeVille-with-Only-3046-hundred-Actual-Miles-ot-miss-print/332823042719?hash=item4d7dcc9a9f:g:tu0AAOSwXy1brmeY&vxp=mtr

https://www.primoclassicsllc.com/1977-cadillac-deville-c-753.htm

Joe,

Wow!  So what is a fair price for this beautiful car -- both for seller and buyer?  I'm always amazed that cars like this still exist -- 41 years old...  Yes, I know I'm a bit off-topic here.

John Emerson
1952 Cadillac Sedan 6219X

[WTL]

I sold a beat up Mercedes last year for less than $1000.  Guy paid my deposit, then couldn't figure out a shipping option to make the purchase make sense (the car had tranny issues, so a carrier was cost prohibitive).

After about a month of no progress, I contacted ebay...they took my side, fwiw. 

Still, I waited a while, we eventually worked it out...but as my eBay rep said, the transaction was strange.  Poorly thought out on his part.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Joe,

Wow!  So what is a fair price for this beautiful car -- both for seller and buyer?  I'm always amazed that cars like this still exist -- 41 years old...  Yes, I know I'm a bit off-topic here.

John Emerson
1952 Cadillac Sedan 6219X

I posted about this car on the forum when it made its first appearance on eBay back in February.

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=148756.0


After many listings, beginning at $15,950 and a succession of lowered BIN offers, the seller ultimately resigned to the auction format with no reserve where the car was finally sold for $10,151 on May 14th.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1977-Cadillac-DeVille-/192533992417?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l44720

The buyer was probably a dealer because it was then resold an annual classic car auction held in PA in which participation is limited to auto dealers only. From what I was told, the car didn't meet reserve when the car was run across the block, but was ultimately sold in an "off the block" transaction.

[Scot Minesinger]

Bill,

I think we all agree e-bay is an excellent advertising platform, just the CLC forum responces differ on the auction process.  Obviously, make sure payment is secure. 

My experiences were that a bidder would put in an offer twice what I hoped to get for the car just a few days into the auction, and they would be a first time bidder with a two hour old account and no transactions - of course that is going to be fake.  Problem is it mucks it up for the other honest bidders.  Then two minutes before the auction ends you cannot control bidders like this.  I talked to a dealer and they always have friends, with no intention of buying, bid up a car to what they will take for it so it does not sell for too low - hate that aspect, but I hear Mecum does that too.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Scot

[Jay Friedman]

CLC members get free* advertising privileges in The Self-Starter. Why not sell your car in the classifieds to another CLC member? It's too late for the November-December issue, which deadlined two hours ago, but you can get into the January 2019 issue.   *Three free ads per calendar year up to nine lines. Photos $20 extra per month.

I've always wondered how useful it is to advertise a car (a Cadillac, of course) in the Self Starter.  After all, almost all readers already have a Cadillac, so there may not be that many looking for another.  It seems to me the SS is best for selling Cadillac parts.

[Lexi]

From what I have learned Scott is correct. Ebay is a wonderful advertising platform for sellers of cars. I have actually been to swap meets where I heard "customers" ask vendors how their latest Ebay listing is going, and if so required would they want them to put in a false bid to get the price elevated. Already taken care of was the response! One problem with Ebay is that it is not a true auction. Real auctions end when the final bid is placed. Ebay auctions end when the clock runs out. That opens the system to a lot of abuse and shills still plague these internet "auction" sites. Still, Ebay can be a good, often last resort place to buy those hard to find parts. Clay/Lexi

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Ebay is every much bit as "real" as any other auction. The reason it's timed is out of simple necessity in an online format in order to have a reasonably sized pool of bidders. It's no different than the reasons why ample notice is given for a live auction.

Shills & other shenanigans are every bit as prominent in live auctions as on eBay. 

[Lexi]

That certainly is why their auctions are run that way, don't dispute that. My point is that it further opens the doors to problems. You also don't see who you are bidding against, (less frequently encountered with a 'telephone' bidder in a traditional auction). In most cases you can't inspect the item prior to the sale, or it is just not feasible. Probably best to inspect a car first and/or hire a local member to do so for you. The incidents of poor photography and lacking or incorrect descriptions are endless. At least with most reputable auction houses who research & catalog items, then organize the sale, much of these issues are reduced. As with any auction you are best to do your homework and also set yourself a maximum limit and stick to it. You are also best to bid as the clock runs out lest you pump up the price by bidding early. Ebay certainly has a place in our world though like anything else it comes with it's own disadvantages. Clay

[Scot Minesinger]

Eric,

Do you have success on e-bay selling cars?

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Eric,

Do you have success on e-bay selling cars?

I have done very well with eBay.

[cadillac ken]

Nobody is forcing anybody to bid higher than they choose. It's like saying "I'm only willing to pay x if someone else is willing to pay y." What difference does that make? And it certainly doesn't make any difference if reserve hadn't been met anyway.

And how about when a car is sold for significantly less than what a bidder was willing to pay? That happens too! Was the seller defrauded then? And if a seller directs shill bids to be placed when reserve is off, he is running the risk of losing his real bidder if he doesn't increase his bid over the shill. So that cuts both ways too.

In the final analysis, all that matters is what the maximum high bidder is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to accept. The actions/inactions of all other auction participants is irrelevant.

It's not very difficult for a seller to safeguard against scam buyers with a modicum of common sense.

Fraud is fraud and it benefits nobody except those that perpetrate it.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Fraud is fraud and it benefits nobody except those that perpetrate it.

You are forgetting it can just as easily cost those who perpetrate it - and often does! The seller has no way of knowing where the bidder will jump off and that is the risk he (the seller) takes.

The assertion that shill bidding invariably benefits those that engage in the practice is wrong. 

Since the cards are not stacked in favor of either party, it is technically not "fraud" and if a bidder is voluntarily willing to pay $x for an item, it is by definition a fair market price.

[Glen]

When I bid on something on ebay I only bid once.  I decide what is the maximum I want to pay (and sometimes add a bit) and that is my one and only bid.  If the bidding goes above what I bid, oh well.   

[Caddyholic]

I use a proxy bid app like bid napper. You put in your max bid and it post if a few seconds before the bidding ends.

[Lexi]

I live outside the U.S. but sources indicate that shill bidding is illegal and may even constitute wire fraud. Both Federal and State laws may be involved. Shill bidding is a misrepresentation with the intent to drive up the price of an item. The outcome of the scheme is irrelevant. Intent is key, not whether the scammer made a profit. It does not reflect fair market value but rather it is a form of fraud. Yes, it is difficult to prove but that should not alter the fact that it is illegal. Most jurisdictions have antitrust laws that address these matters. Ebay also prohibits the practice for these reasons. Below is an interesting article from a NY Ebay Fraud lawyer who commented on shill bidding from an American perspective:

https://www.nyccriminallawyer.com/fraud-charge/auction-fraud/shill-bidding/

Clay/Lexi

[76eldo]

No one that I know would have a shill bidder bid on a car with no reserve of bid up a car that has met the reserve.

However hypothetically if your reserve on a car is $9999.00 and you start your auction low at let's say $2500 it's been known to happen they people bid on the item to get the price up to almost the reserve.

This makes people think there is a lot of interest in the item and the next bidder will most probably bid high enough to meet the reserve.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I live outside the U.S. but sources indicate that shill bidding is illegal and may even constitute wire fraud. Both Federal and State laws may be involved. Shill bidding is a misrepresentation with the intent to drive up the price of an item. The outcome of the scheme is irrelevant. Intent is key, not whether the scammer made a profit. It does not reflect fair market value but rather it is a form of fraud. Yes, it is difficult to prove but that should not alter the fact that it is illegal. Most jurisdictions have antitrust laws that address these matters. Ebay also prohibits the practice for these reasons. Below is an interesting article from a NY Ebay Fraud lawyer who commented on shill bidding from an American perspective:

https://www.nyccriminallawyer.com/fraud-charge/auction-fraud/shill-bidding/

Clay/Lexi

Then we better start criminalizing every instance of something being priced above market value because the pricing is "deceptive".  99% of eBay sellers would be in jail overnight.

Just as it's common practice to start high and lower the price, bidding (in principle) is the same thing in reverse.

Regarding eBay policy which many are unaware - once the maximum bid meets or exceeds reserve price, the reserve is eliminated. For example, if the reserve $100,000 and the only other bid is $1.00, the reserve is off once someone bids $100,000. The fact that the next highest bid is $1.00 is irrelevant.

What someone else is willing to pay (real or illusory) is also irrelevant. All that matters is what the bidder is willing to pay. Period.

[Lexi]

Wrong. Don't muddy the waters Eric. That is not the point. The point is how one arrived at the price in an auction. That is the issue. If the sale had been rigged or tampered with, that changes the complexion of things. For example, if a winning bid was influenced by shill bidding, the buyer was defrauded. That is a fact in law, like it or not. Further, that is so regardless of whether the winning bidder was aware of what happened. They may not even care in certain cases. Not relevant. It is still fraud. Having spent 37 years in law enforcement I learned that stupidity is not outlawed, rather that laws are enacted for the greater public good and applied accordingly. There are legislative differences between fair market value and fraud. Clay/Lexi

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Wrong. Don't muddy the waters Eric. That is not the point. The point is how one arrived at the price in an auction. That is the issue. If the sale had been rigged or tampered with, that changes the complexion of things. For example, if a winning bid was influenced by shill bidding, the buyer was defrauded. That is a fact in law, like it or not. Further, that is so regardless of whether the winning bidder was aware of what happened. They may not even care in certain cases. Not relevant. It is still fraud. Having spent 37 years in law enforcement I learned that stupidity is not outlawed, rather that laws are enacted for the greater public good and applied accordingly. There are legislative differences between fair market value and fraud. Clay/Lexi

There are a lot of silly laws too - of which this is a sterling example (if it is indeed the law) - for the reasons I have clearly outlined.

[Lexi]

Yep, there are tons of silly laws. I even had to enforce some of them up here. There are also lots of good laws which are simply not enforced for various reasons. Some good advice in this thread on how to protect one's interests while shopping on Ebay, like know what you are bidding on and have a limit for example. Buyer beware. Clay