Another issue regarding the future of Electric Vehicles

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

For those of us that might be concerned regarding the issue of infrastructure to facilitate the Electric Vehicles "destined" to fill the future, here is another bump in the road.  Someone (a major electronics corporation) has just raised the issue of cyber security that needs to accompany public charging stations.  In short the issue of hackers getting into the station network and either gathering personal information or causing harm to the stations themselves or the batteries they charge was the issue. Whoops, tain't so simpe Mcgee.
Greg Surfas

[Clewisiii]

This is kind of a weak argument.   The same thing can be said of any hacker getting into the credit card processing and stealing information.  Or your onstar or blue tooth connected phone.   

[Big Apple Caddy]

Oil and gas producers, providers, etc. and gas stations are vulnerable to and have been the victims of various types of cyberattacks as well.

Perhaps the most notable recent attack was to Colonial Pipeline Company, the major supplier of gasoline on the east coast.  They ended up paying a nearly $5 million ransom (although I believe most of it was recovered) to get everything operational again but the attack caused shortages and a spike in gas prices until things returned to normal.

[fishnjim]

Not sure what that would be unless you have to insert a credit card at the "pump" to charge?   That's really no different than gas.   But if gas stations start to fold up, then it's two bad scenarios.   It's quite easy not to allow internet access to the industrial controls, if they're really serious.  It can be designed out.   We didn't have that for decades before, and companies control the computer access fairly well internally.
I don't really want to stand around for several hours while my EV charges in some remote place.
The grid is controlled by the Puke Os so they can charge whatever they want, so what might be cheap today and free to promote EVs, won't be in the future and you won't have a choice of suppliers, it's tying us to a utility monopoly, not free enterprise.
I can see real grid lock, if they don't increase the range of these EVs.   I saw pix of a massive pileup in PA rt 81 today and if you're sitting in a line of vehicles for hours and your battery goes dead, they can't just run out and get a five gallon can of electricity.   For some things they might be OK, but to push as a general solution, it really concerns me.  Especially if a certain Pres. is behind pushing it.   
Hybrid is about the best compromise, but I did not opt to go that route with the new vehicle.   Cad is still not shipping, so went elsewhere.   I don't drive that much anymore, to pay for the additional upfront cost.   Traded the '19 Cad with 22K miles.  I can't save enough on fuel to pay for the added cost.   
Why are we even debating this now?   We don't have the power to run all those vehicles on solar anyway, so the green panacea is far off, if at all.  We'll be putting more CO2 up with EVs in the short term.  Electricity consumes more energy than gasoline to produce and still around 50% comes from coal or NG.   No real good argument for climate folks to push this.

[signart]

I don't need no stinkin charging station

[35-709]

   Yup, and ICE powered portable generator.  Put one in the trunk of every EV, sorta like a spare tire.

[gkhashem]

Just another pretend fantasy to push now.

Let's see men are women and visa versa. Gender is fluid, it's what you say it is.

Solar, windmills  etc will provide all the power we need.  Heard somewhere that the number of charging stations would have to be enormous. Will they be fast charging? Its one thing to commute in the car and plug it on over night.
How about a long trip?

By the way if fossil fuels, go away what will they pave the roads with? How about all the plastic in cars and everything else we use?

Rather than the government building charging stations how about fixing the bridges?

Just pretend it's ready now. Anyone see a trend here?  Progressive ideology seems to be heavy on fantasy, not reality.

It appears to me the only thing green about green energy is the cash.

I predict Cadillac dies along with GM if they go all in so soon, it makes me sad but no way they should be bailed out again.  One thing to make some EVs but to just make EVs is suicide at the present moment.

Just hope you do not get a car fire, you cannot put it out with water.  You need special equipment I think, yeah let's just buy all new fire trucks, we got plenty of money.

Better leave that EV outside and not in your garage. You might die in a house fire. Telsa told people to leave a model outside I think.

[Big Apple Caddy]

I don't really want to stand around for several hours while my EV charges in some remote place.

Several hours?  The only time someone should be charging for hours would be with an at-home or perhaps destination (e.g., hotel) charger.  According to Cadillac, the Lyriq can get up to 76 miles of range in about ten minutes at a fast charge public charging station.

[mgrab]

Several hours?  The only time someone should be charging for hours would be with an at-home or perhaps destination (e.g., hotel) charger.  According to Cadillac, the Lyriq can get up to 76 miles of range in about ten minutes at a fast charge public charging station.

But, I can fill up my Honda in five minutes and go for 350-400 miles.  People are impatient and plan poorly.  If you want to get American's sold on EV's they need to deliver more utility for the same or less cost.  Everyone seems to forget that EV's had their time in the early 1900's, companies like Detroit Electric developed cars for primarily women who had a difficult time hand cranking cars.  Once that problem was solved they fizzled out.

I don't see the parallel to horseless carriages to the ICE's to the EV's of today.  When Henry Ford came out with the Model T it opened up a whole new world to people.  People could finally explore locations horses couldn't take them prior.  What increased utility are we getting from EV's?  From my vantage point it's making sure Sasquatches don't shed too much in 2050.  Elon Musk has it right, we need to go back to energy independence and let the free hand of the market take care of itself.  I have no doubt many smart folks will find ways to create that enhanced value if the government get their hand off the scale and their butt out of the way, but that's a ways off and some folks need to calm down over Sasquatches.

I still say for the 2030 all EV path forward... it's quite possibly the second coming of the '76 Eldorado convertible... my two cents.

Mike

[Big Apple Caddy]

But, I can fill up my Honda in five minutes and go for 350-400 miles.

Yes, filling up a gas tank is still much faster.  I was just pointing out that someone shouldn't be "standing around for several hours" or anything close to that at a public charging station.  It doesn't take that long at a fast charger, and charging speeds have continued to improve.

[Andrew Trout]

Just another pretend fantasy to push now.

Let's see men are women and visa versa. Gender is fluid, it's what you say it is.

Can you just stop with this? We're here to talk to about cars, not whine about grievances. Doing so on the forums makes a very public part of the club less appealing to new members.

[TJ Hopland]

But, I can fill up my Honda in five minutes and go for 350-400 miles.

I hear that one a lot and always want to ask how often do you drive 350-400 miles non stop in a day?  Or even further only stopping that 5 mins to refill before continuing?   If you do do that very often or regularly then an EV would be a pretty poor choice.

Seems like I remember reading that the first big wave of EV's had something like a 60 mile range and that was enough to cover something like 70% of the peoples daily drives.  The other stat I remembered was a similar stat where something like 90% of multi person car owning households had at least 2 cars meaning that one could be an EV and the other could be regular for those epic road trips.   That could leave 10-30% out but covers a lot of people.

[mgrab]

I hear that one a lot and always want to ask how often do you drive 350-400 miles non stop in a day?  Or even further only stopping that 5 mins to refill before continuing?   If you do do that very often or regularly then an EV would be a pretty poor choice.

I personally do it 3-4 times per year.  I live in the SE and have much family in the NE and drive ~600-700 miles per day starting early in the AM.  Stop quickly for lunch at Chick-fil-A and press on.  In fact, my brother-in-law visits my wife and I every summer for a week or so with his kids and my mother-in-law.  They load up the huge black Suburban with all the luggage, two non-aerodynamic kayak's and a bunch of fishing gear.  He starts out 5 am blasts down the highway at 80, AC blasting.  Stops quickly for lunch and back on the road.  By 5pm he's in my driveway ready to hit the water that night.  It blows me away GM wants to walk away from all those Escalade dollars.. more of these folks out there than you know.  And even if it's only a few times per year, do you really want to be inconvenienced at two to three times the cost?

Mike

[jwwseville60]

The US energy grid will be powered by advanced fusion and zero point energy in 15-20 years.
The US military has had it for decades in secret.
Lockheed Martin is a huge military contractor. The word is they are testing these "new" technologies in the back room of GE now.
It will cost us $$$$. No free lunch here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlYClniDFkM

Wind and solar are not cost efficient.

[Big Apple Caddy]

It blows me away GM wants to walk away from all those Escalade dollars.. more of these folks out there than you know.

How is GM walking away from Escalade dollars?   The ICE Escalade is still being made and a fully electric Escalade is expected by 2024 or 2025.

And even if it's only a few times per year, do you really want to be inconvenienced at two to three times the cost?

What is two to three times the cost?  Like gas prices, charging station prices can vary by location but if we assume the current fast charger average is 35 cents/kWh that means it would cost $28 for 80 kWh which could get someone around 325 miles.  If a similar gas engine car averaged 28 mpg, it would require 11.6 gallons of gasoline to go 325 miles or a cost of around $50 at current prices.  The electricity cost in this example is 44% lower than the gasoline cost.  Plus, charging from home at the beginning and end of a long trip would be about half the public fast charger cost and could further reduce the overall fuel cost of the trip.

[mgrab]

How is GM walking away from Escalade dollars?   The ICE Escalade is still being made and a fully electric Escalade is expected by 2024 or 2025.



What is two to three times the cost?  Like gas prices, charging station prices can vary by location but if we assume the current fast charger average is 35 cents/kWh that means it would cost $28 for 80 kWh which could get someone around 325 miles.  If a similar gas engine car averaged 28 mpg, it would require 11.6 gallons of gasoline to go 325 miles or a cost of around $50 at current prices.  The electricity cost in this example is 44% lower than the gasoline cost.  Plus, charging from home at the beginning and end of a long trip would be about half the public fast charger cost and could further reduce the overall fuel cost of the trip.

Will the new version cost the same and perform at the same level, i.e. range??  And will an ICE be available after 2030 for those that don't want hang out somewhere for a couple hours charging?

I was talking about the cost of the vehicle itself.  My Honda costs 1/3 what a new Lyriq costs.  A luxury car or any car that costs more than what I have now should enhance my life, not complicate it.

Mike

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Hey guys, all this has been hashed over, adnauseum. I just wanted to update those following the DEFINITE AND EVENTUAL TRANSITION TO ELECTRIFICATION OF TRANSPORTATION that a new glitch has been identified and is being corrected.
Greg Surfas

[Big Apple Caddy]

Will the new version cost the same and perform at the same level, i.e. range??  And will an ICE be available after 2030 for those that don't want hang out somewhere for a couple hours charging?

I'm not sure what GM/Cadillac's plans are as far as future products and pricing but you wouldn't have to be dealing with charging times of "a couple of hours" at a public fast charger.

I was talking about the cost of the vehicle itself.  My Honda costs 1/3 what a new Lyriq costs.  A luxury car or any car that costs more than what I have now should enhance my life, not complicate it.

The Lyriq starts at $59,990.  1/3 of that would be under $20,000 which doesn't even get you Honda's cheapest model right now (HR-V).   I don't think comparing the Cadillac to a much smaller vehicle from Honda is fair comparison.  Many Cadillac gasoline models are notably more expensive than the HR-V.  If someone is looking for a small inexpensive EV, they'd be better off considering a Nissan Leaf which can be had for around $20,000 with federal tax credit.

However, a more reasonable Lyriq comparison would be against the Cadillac XT6 which is similar in size.   Yes, the current Lyriq starting price (before any potential tax credits/rebates) is about 20% higher than the XT6 but that's no where near two to three times.

Going forward, there will be more and more EV choices for consumers at various price points.  As EV production volume and competition picks up and the technology improves, etc., vehicle pricing should become more favorable.

[mgrab]

The Lyriq starts at $59,990.  1/3 of that would be under $20,000 which doesn't even get you Honda's cheapest model right now (HR-V).   I don't think comparing the Cadillac to a much smaller vehicle from Honda is fair comparison.  Many Cadillac gasoline models are notably more expensive than the HR-V.  If someone is looking for a small inexpensive EV, they'd be better off considering a Nissan Leaf which can be had for around $20,000 with federal tax credit.

However, a more reasonable Lyriq comparison would be against the Cadillac XT6 which is similar in size.   Yes, the current Lyriq starting price (before any potential tax credits/rebates) is about 20% higher than the XT6 but that's no where near two to three times.

Going forward, there will be more and more EV choices for consumers at various price points.  As EV production volume and competition picks up and the technology improves, etc., vehicle pricing should become more favorable.

It's a 2017 Accord LX - out the door for just over $21k back then.. admittedly, I'm sure inflation has taken it's toll there too and I haven't priced them out lately... so lets say twice to maybe 2.5X??  Point being if I pay more for something it should deliver more.  I've been shopping for trucks and yes they are lot more than a year or two ago but there are many decent options in the $30-40k range.  If EV's get to the point where I can fully charge in five minutes (without being detrimental to the battery), they are very comparable to an ICE equivalent price wise, I feel very confident it won't burn my garage down (or me in it) - I'm in!  Until that day comes....

Mike

[signart]

Does anyone know how many miles can be put on a set of EV batteries? Cost of replacement? When one trades in an EV, I would assume the hour meter on the vehicle would be figured in the value of the trade in.