No Zink in motor oil

[Ned Wright # 14842]

I was told by a mechanic that since most new motors have roller cam followers most oils today have no zink which was added to prevent wear on the lifters. He uses Shell Rotel T which has zink. Is the mechanic full of it?  Is this the old detergent vs nondetergent oil argument?  

[Porter]

http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/forum/index.php/topic,1213.0.html TARGET=_blank>http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/forum/index.php/topic,1213.0.html

[Russ Hobden #1235]

Ive heard this too.  I was also told that to get the zinc needed in our old cars, we should use a motor oil used for diesel engines, which is still available.  Russ Hobden #1235

[John Washburn]

Folks,

The real additive is ZDDP that is being removed from our oil. The diesel oil contains enough ZDDP to protect our old iron, but next year it will be removed from this oil also.

I just submitted an article on this issue to the Self Starter so hope it gets published.

John Washburn
CLC #1067

[Mike #19861]

 That is a real shame. The enviro-greenies have one more up on us. But all is not lost, you can add a can of EOS with your oil changes. That is the main active ingredient in EOS.

 You can find this at your local dealer or any Delco outlet.

 But for now Ill continue to use HD 15W40 oils in all my cars. Have been for the last 25 years and have yet to have an engine concern of any kind. Good stuff, that.

 Mike

[Rhino 21150]

Umm, sorry, what is EOS? Can I get something like it at Auto Zone, Advance, OReillys?

[Mike #19861]

 EOS (Engine Oil Supplement) is available only as a Delco product. There is no aftermarket equivilant.

 You can find it at any GM dealer or Delco outlet.

  Mike

[Mike #19861]

http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/forum/index.php/topic,1245.0.html TARGET=_blank>http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/forum/index.php/topic,1245.0.html

[Ned Wright 14842]

OK Rotella T or EOS  How many cases should I buy?  Thanks to all for the info.

[Mike #19861]

 Jeez, I dont know. As many as you can afford or have room for. I can buy a 5 gallon pail of Rotella for about $50. By comparison, MotoMaster (Canadian Tire store brand) is available for $32.

 But, I dont think we should panic just yet. There will be zinc in HD motor oils for some time to come.

 Mike

[John Washburn]

Folks,

This is the article Ive submitted to the Self Starter on this issue. I have a longer version, but I think this one is a stretch for this board.

Things are changing, so think about what is next.

Questions, be glad to chat.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I’ve long been an advocate of the Consumer Union school of thought on the use of automotive oil.  To paraphrase this view is simple; as long as the oil meets the API Service requirement for your vehicle, find the cheapest possible oil, since they all work equally well.  There are numerous studies to support this theory (remember a theory is never proved), so I’ve used “on sale” oil for years without problems.

Unfortunately, it appears that the days of problem free use of “on sale,” or any other motor oil, are coming to an end.

What will cause our new motor oils to create problems for our old cars?  Use of the additive Zinc-Dialkyl-DithioPhosphate, more commonly know as ZDDP, is being phased out. *

What is ZDDP?  ZDDP is an additive, a combination of zinc and phosphorous, which has been used in our oil for years.  The formulation is generally ¾ phosphates to 1 part zinc.  This means if you mix 0.100 percent zinc by weight in the motor oil you add 0.075 phosphates to get the ZDDP additive.

What does ZDDP do?  In a 2005 article, Additives Help Engines- Motor Oil: Smart, But Imperfect, the author, Jennifer Viegas, addressed how ZDDP works: ZDDP is “a smart material … that adjusts its properties under varying conditions in such a way that it is useful to us. The zincphosphate pads (meaning the chemical bonds formed within the protective film), for example, become much harder with increasing pressure.  ZDDP, therefore, acts as if it has a brain. When pressure pushes down on it, it can push back because its atomic bonds get even tighter with more pressure.” So this little additive reduces wear by forming a strong layer between moving parts, specifically the flat lifters and cam.

Why is ZDDP so important in my old car’s engine?  Reduced levels of ZDDP increase the possibility of excessive wear on cams and lifters, since that ZDDP barrier is gone.  This is obviously not a good thing for the old car hobby.

Why is the amount of ZDDP being reduced in motor oils?  It seems that as a new engine ages and develops blow-by, some of the additives flow out of the exhaust where they can degrade oxygen sensor and catalytic converter performance.  Rocky Rotella in his High Performance Pontiac Magazine article, “The Slippery Truth About Motor Oil,” *1 explains that  â€œAuto manufacturers have been required by federal law to warrant specific components of the emissions control system on a 1995-or-newer car or light-duty truck for the balance of eight years of 80,000 miles â€" including catalytic converters. In that time, it has been determined that phosphorus in exhaust can negatively react with the converter’s active catalysts, rendering in inoperable. The costs of component replacement cannot only fall upon the manufacturer; its failure can also create a vehicle that excessively emits pollutants until said repair is made.  Since phosphorus has been proven to negatively affect catalytic converters, auto manufacturers and oil companies are working to find a suitable antiwear additive to replace ZDDP. But that has been a major task. So, until it happens, the analysis organizations have imposed a temporary limit on he maximum amount of ZDDP in oil â€" no more than 0.012 percent by weight. It appears this reduction has had a major effect on the hobby since its enactment in January 2004.”

How are new cars coping with this problem?  It does not seem to be a big problem for the newer cars.  Around 1987 up, most GM cars converted to hydraulic lifters with roller bearings that greatly reduce frictional contact.  So I don’t believe that there is any great interest by car manufacturers in a problem that may be specific to older cars.

A Recap of the Problem

ZDDP is a great additive that reduces wear between the flat lifters and cam on our old cars.  The amount of ZDDP is being reduced since it negatively affects catalytic converters.  This has little effect on new cars since lifter technology has changed dramatically.  Excessive lifter and cam wear is a possibility on our old cars as the miles driven increases.

Some Suggested Solutions

Today, Shell Rotella T oil has plenty of ZDDP.  This oil is marketed for big 18 wheel rigs and construction equipment with diesel engines, but will work just fine in older cars without catalytic converters.  I found it for about $11.00 a gallon at Napa.  Now the bad news, in 2007 they will phase ZDDP out of diesel oils also.

GM has a 4 oz bottle of camshaft and lifter prelube (PN 12345501) for around $9.00, which can be added at every oil change if you use conventional motor oil.

Some racing oils, marketed for vehicles used in legally sanctioned races, have plenty of ZDDP.  They generally don’t meet new car warranty requirements, but for older cars who cares?  Quaker State’s line of synthetic oils, Q-Racing, has the needed additive, as does Valvoline VR-1 racing oil.  I found VR-1 at Napa for a about $3.25 a quart.

A vendor in Skinned Knuckles, Crosmobile, advertises MotorHeadâ,,¢ Hi-Zâ,,¢ Motor Oil, which has a lot of ZDDP.  This is a 20W-40 H.D. detergent oil.  It cost $3.95 per quart and a gallon is $14.50.

I’m sure there are other solutions out there, so take a look.  My suggestion is get over the extra cost and find oil for your pride and joy that has at least 0.140percent zinc and 0.130percent phosphorous by weight.  Your cam and lifters will last a lot longer if you use ZDDP.

*  See Skinned Knuckles, Vol. 31 â€" No. 1, August 2006, “New Engine Oils Short on ZDDP”, by Niel Maken. See this article for a detailed analysis of ZDDP.

*1 http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/hppp_0606_understanding_motor_oil/index.html TARGET=_blank>http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/hppp_0606_understanding_motor_oil/index.html

John Washburn
CLC #1067

[Mike #19861]

 John,

 Excellent article. We should all be aware of this and find a way to replenish the ZDDF. As I have mentioned, EOS also contains it.

 Another property of ZDF is that it can repair minor damage caused by galling. This can be a result of a failed oil film caused bu a number of factors, like oil that has been left far too long in the engine, or oil contamination from factors such as introduction of etylene glycol into the oil. That is why I recommend a can of EOS when changing the oil following these conditions.

 Lifter assembly lube is also a great scource of ZDDP, and it is also commonly used as an assembly fluid because of its excellent break in properties.

 Mike

[Archie Calise]

Fellas,
All this talk motivated me to go to my nearest Cadillac dealer and I purchased some E.O.S.  However, my bottle says E.O.S. ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT.  And theres a disclaimer from GM on the back indicating that it should not be used as an additive to engine oil!!!  Did I get the wrong stuff???

[Mike #19861]

 Whats the part number? The stuff I have is #992869 and it makes no mention as being an assembly lubricant.

 Mike

[bill henry]

thats the stuff dude i use it every oil change in my 70 that disclaimer is like the ones on McDs coffe just for our litigios society

[Archie Calise]

The part number is 1052367.  Its GM Goodwrench, not AC Delco.  I went back to the Cadillac dealer today and he assured me that its the one and only.  Just a different package, as its GM Goodwrench, not outside (AC Delco).  What do you think??
Im still not sure I suhould use it....
Thanks,

[John Washburn]

Folks,

The 4 oz EOS additive part number is PN 12345501, which is good to ad per oil change. Go back up and read my article. There are other oils that have plenty of ZDDP which I have listed.

Good Luck

John Washburn
CLC #1067
Elizabeth, Colorado.

[Dave Leger CLC # 19256]

Johns article was an eye opener for me.  I did some checking, and you can get the Quaker Q-Racing synthetics through Amazon.com, with free basic shipping.  I plan on giving those a try my next oil change (I have a rebuilt engine with about 1200 miles on it at this point).

Dave

[bill henry]

yes yuse it that is the stuff been using it for years

[Morgan Murphy, #17409]

My wifes Brougham has 27,000 miles on it.  Its a 1990 5.0.  To zink or not to zink?  That is the question.

She drives it about 100 miles a month, mostly short tips to the Junior League and church.  Im thinking I need something to blow out the carbon build-up and a stronger oil to protect the engine.  

And no, were note 10,000 years old.  Shes 35 and loves her car so much, she wont even trade it for a new STS!