Cadillac Christmas Kindness and a Hagerty towing disaster with The Ark

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

"Driving like it was stolen" doesn't seem to be a winning formula. I knew another old Cadillac owner who used to preach the same thing who predictably blew the engine and the car hasn't been on the road since. Not difficult to understand the near-fanatical devotion to radials when an owner insists on treating it like a 19 year old behind the wheel of a Subaru WRX. 

The more you beat a car, the more it will beat you, or more specifically, your wallet. The older the car, the higher the economic carnage. If the enjoyment is worth the price, have at it. 

[Lexi]

Again, Eric is dead on. The increased "economic carnage" is quite predictable as proven via economic forecast tables. The cost of maintaining machinery and equipment goes up with increased/heavy use. Additional captital is needed to keep things operational. When dealing with vintage machinery, one's peril & repair costs are increased. The vintage machine shop that rebuilt my 365 V8 in 2018, advised me to "drive it like you stole it", BUT...to drive it also like the "Little old lady from Pasedena". "All over the map" (speed wise), they added. Most importantly, these were break in guidelines and NOT those to follow ad infinitum, (with respect to driving it like you stole it). Further, they added to never start the vehicle in the winter, (Canadian winter). As Eric pointed out, if your wallet can withstand the impact and you are content with such, then proceeed. As he further stated these cars "will beat you" financially. Clay/Lexi

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

"Driving like it was stolen" doesn't seem to be a winning formula. I knew another old Cadillac owner who used to preach the same thing who predictably blew the engine and the car hasn't been on the road since. Not difficult to understand the near-fanatical devotion to radials when an owner insists on treating it like a 19 year old behind the wheel of a Subaru WRX. 

The more you beat a car, the more it will beat you, or more specifically, your wallet. The older the car, the higher the economic carnage. If the enjoyment is worth the price, have at it. 

Actually it IS a 'winning formula'. All the major issues I've had, happened at home/my hometown/next town over. Versus 600 miles from home, so there's that. If you DRIVE your car, its in your best interest, and that of those around you, to be rolling on radials. Knowingly sacrificing safety in weather, breaking, simply 'driving' on a back road or highway, not to mention ride control and road noise, is silly in my opinion. Safety should be everything but to each their own. These big old cars can be a challenge as it is, why give away points when you can increase safety that wasn't available 'back then'? Then again, people like me, with our backgrounds, think differently. 19 year old with a Subaru? LOL! When I was 19 I was screaming around in a 3 year old Sedan De Ville d'elegance, LMAO!

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Again, Eric is dead on. The increased "economic carnage" is quite predictable as proven via economic forecast tables. The cost of maintaining machinery and equipment goes up with increased/heavy use. Additional captital is needed to keep things operational. When dealing with vintage machinery, one's peril & repair costs are increased. The vintage machine shop that rebuilt my 365 V8 in 2018, advised me to "drive it like you stole it", BUT...to drive it also like the "Little old lady from Pasedena". "All over the map" (speed wise), they added. Most importantly, these were break in guidelines and NOT those to follow ad infinitum, (with respect to driving it like you stole it). Further, they added to never start the vehicle in the winter, (Canadian winter). As Eric pointed out, if your wallet can withstand the impact and you are content with such, then proceeed. As he further stated these cars "will beat you" financially. Clay/Lexi

When The Ark's engine was rebuilt during the Summer Of The Flu when they cancelled all of the car shows due to the inherent dangers of fresh air and sunshine, Reid's Automotive did it. The old man gave me a very specific engine break in protocol starting the first day the car was home. Distance-to this speed-don't let it down shift-for this amount of time/mileage-let the engine come back to 20mph without braking etc, wash rinse repeat multiple stated times until the final exercise was completed. Then change the oil. Change it again in 500 miles, then rock on using THIS filter and THIS oil. "Jimmy, how fast will this car go now?" (with an extra 75hp and 150ftlbs torque recorded at dyno) 'darlin you run out of nerve before you run out of engine...' Yeah he was right, 92 (speedometer and WAZE) and the pedal was barely 3/4 down. If I couldn't afford this car I'd buy Eric's Subaru.         

[jaxops]

" Safety should be everything but to each their own. These big old cars can be a challenge as it is, why give away points when you can increase safety that wasn't available 'back then"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm with you on that.  I smile widely as they mark off the points for safety updates!

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Actually it IS a 'winning formula'. All the major issues I've had, happened at home/my hometown/next town over. Versus 600 miles from home, so there's that. If you DRIVE your car, its in your best interest, and that of those around you, to be rolling on radials. Knowingly sacrificing safety in weather, breaking, simply 'driving' on a back road or highway, not to mention ride control and road noise, is silly in my opinion. Safety should be everything but to each their own. These big old cars can be a challenge as it is, why give away points when you can increase safety that wasn't available 'back then'? Then again, people like me, with our backgrounds, think differently. 19 year old with a Subaru? LOL! When I was 19 I was screaming around in a 3 year old Sedan De Ville d'elegance, LMAO!

None of my cars go out under adverse weather conditions so that's irrelevant in my case, which likely holds true for the majority of classic car owners. There are any number of people who would argue that anything built before x model year is inherently "unsafe" regardless of what the tires are. As Clay pointed out, where does it start and where does it end? Therefore, the safety argument becomes a massive gray area of which nobody is the final arbiter.

As Car & Driver once pointed out, "the safest car is the car that is safely driven"- and that takes into account the limitations of the vehicle itself, as outfitted. There are driving maneuvers I could safely execute all day in a modern DTS or even a '77 DeVille that I wouldn't think of attempting with a '59 Cadillac.

At any rate, the biggest argument against aggressively driving an older car isn't so much for reasons of "safety", but to keep stress on elderly driveline components at a minimum which will contribute significantly to long life and trouble free operation which translates directly into dollars and cents. In that sense, not only is an older car an object of enjoyment, but as a bank account on wheels into which you make deposits and withdrawls. So driven, an older driveline can last indefinitely.  And if self-preservation is an instinct you possess, you will do everything in your power to keep the "withdrawls" to a minimum. In that vein, I drive my older cars in a way that the type of tires it's riding on is the least of my concerns.     

[wrefakis]

hope you are sorted by the pa trip
i am surprised by how many breakdowns you have had,in all the 70 cadillacs i have had,and still have they have never left me stranded
whenever i drive one now,it gets no special treatment,good set of tires,and correct fuel its up to any legal speed +20 over
now that they are 50+ i do look them over before and after,kind of like a pre flight walk around

happy new year to all

[Lexi]

All cars are not created equal. My vintage Caddy is not even equipped with seat belts let alone air bags or a modern designed crush zone. Some members are driving cars with only mechanical brakes and plate glass windows. With resepct to Laurie; if you always drive the car "like you stole it" as you stated, you can expect increased operational costs. That Law of Business Management with respect to asset investment protection cannot be violated without future costs. And what are the safety consequences of driving any vehicle "like you stole it"? That in itself implies reckless driving behaviour. How is that safe?

Your car will never be as good as when it left the factory. Issues such as metal fatigue take their toll which can have serious repercusions. That combined with questionable period engineering can lead to failure of a part. See my June 2022 Self Starter article that details such an incident that I experienced with my Cadillac. This was a classic example of under engineering as well as metal fatigue at work. Even new cars are routinely subject to recalls when faulty engineering is discovered. It is not reasonable to expect vintage cars to perform as new.

As both Eric and I explained, the safety argument becomes muddy and even spurious especially with respect to tires on vehicles that are driven under the conditions we described. If you are using your classic car as a daily driver and/or "driving it like you stole it", whatever that means, I would not be critical of those who install radial tires. But this does not universally apply as noted in posts in this thread. Radial tires are not required for all and should not be considered a substitute for safe driving.

Clay/Lexi

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

None of my cars go out under adverse weather conditions so that's irrelevant in my case, which likely holds true for the majority of classic car owners. There are any number of people who would argue that anything built before x model year is inherently "unsafe" regardless of what the tires are. As Clay pointed out, where does it start and where does it end? Therefore, the safety argument becomes a massive gray area of which nobody is the final arbiter.

As Car & Driver once pointed out, "the safest car is the car that is safely driven"- and that takes into account the limitations of the vehicle itself, as outfitted. There are driving maneuvers I could safely execute all day in a modern DTS or even a '77 DeVille that I wouldn't think of attempting with a '59 Cadillac.

At any rate, the biggest argument against aggressively driving an older car isn't so much for reasons of "safety", but to keep stress on elderly driveline components at a minimum which will contribute significantly to long life and trouble free operation which translates directly into dollars and cents. In that sense, not only is an older car an object of enjoyment, but as a bank account on wheels into which you make deposits and withdrawls. So driven, an older driveline can last indefinitely.  And if self-preservation is an instinct you possess, you will do everything in your power to keep the "withdrawls" to a minimum. In that vein, I drive my older cars in a way that the type of tires it's riding on is the least of my concerns.     

Engine rebuilt - transmission rebuilt - drive shaft restored - rear end done = drive line done.
When they took the engine apart Jimmy said it had 200K on it, that's a lot of miles on that
frame.

As far as 'driving safely', you should Google me. Not only was I a student at SSDD taking and passing
ALL of their courses at the Thompson Speedway, I went back as an instructor, with Sig Sauer, when they upped
the anti/counter terrorism courses to include lethal force. And all of the courses I took and taught, were with
rear wheel drive sedans/limos. I had similar training at 'North Mountain Pines'...

That's the beauty of "social media". Sometimes you have NO IDEA of whom you're talking to.   

[badpoints]

"Drive it like you stole it" is just an expression. I am sure that you don't really drive your Baby like a stolen car and beat it into the ground and hit things.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

hope you are sorted by the pa trip
i am surprised by how many breakdowns you have had,in all the 70 cadillacs i have had,and still have they have never left me stranded
whenever i drive one now,it gets no special treatment,good set of tires,and correct fuel its up to any legal speed +20 over
now that they are 50+ i do look them over before and after,kind of like a pre flight walk around

happy new year to all

Why are you surprised? There's 200k on that frame. The car is 54 years old, for the last 6 years its had actual mechanics with a devoted owner. It had an unknown number of owners for 48 years prior and who knows what for "mechanics". Current devoted owner DRIVES IT out of town, out of state, at speed, in all conditions, so I know where the weaknesses are to be corrected or they show up eventually. This car is a DRIVER, its not a statue to be dusted or a trailer queen to be exhibited. It does what it was designed for. Driving.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

"Drive it like you stole it" is just an expression. I am sure that you don't really drive your Baby like a stolen car and beat it into the ground and hit things.

I don't hit things... except bugs on the windshield.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Engine rebuilt - transmission rebuilt - drive shaft restored - rear end done = drive line done.
When they took the engine apart Jimmy said it had 200K on it, that's a lot of miles on that
frame.

As far as 'driving safely', you should Google me. Not only was I a student at SSDD taking and passing
ALL of their courses at the Thompson Speedway, I went back as an instructor, with Sig Sauer, when they upped
the anti/counter terrorism courses to include lethal force. And all of the courses I took and taught, were with
rear wheel drive sedans/limos. I had similar training at 'North Mountain Pines'...

That's the beauty of "social media". Sometimes you have NO IDEA of whom you're talking to.   

All the driving credentials in the world and $2.22 buys a cup of coffee. I am talking about net cost of ownership- which can be positive or negative (a/k/a getting paid to own) depending on how one plays his/her cards which includes how the car is treated. In the six years you've been here, you have spent more money with more breakdowns on a single car than I have on four or five cars combined, over the course of twenty years or more. 

When the time comes that it must be sold (as they all are sooner or later), how many chips left on the table is what will count as much as the fun had along the way, if not more.

[Lexi]

"Drive it like you stole it" is just an expression. I am sure that you don't really drive your Baby like a stolen car and beat it into the ground and hit things.

I get it, but I can only judge by what I read. Presumeably Laurie doesn't drive the car like "The Little old Lady from Pasedena" either. It is really up to Laurie to define her driving habits as the phrase she used carries what may be an incorrect connotation. Eric and I were quite clear on how our cars are driven and under what cirumstances they are used. I believe in Laurie's case radials were already available for Cadillac in 1970, with her car probably having had them installed when new. So more of a reason for her to use them as her vehicle's front end was engineered for their installation, as opposed to some earlier vehicles. Clay/Lexi

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

The first brochure in which radials were listed as optional equipment is 1973. It's possible they could have become a mid year option in 1972 but it's extremely doubtful that any Cadillac left the factory with radials in 1971 or earlier. 

Update: According to Greg Powers, radials first became available on the Fleetwood Brougham and Eldorado in 1972.

According to the Authenticity Manual Class 25 - 1971 - 1976 Cadillac (excluding Eldorado and Seville) Standard tires for 1971- 1974 were fiberglass-belted bias ply blackwall tires. Most however chose the dual banded whitewall tire option. In early 1972 steel-belted radials became a factory option on the Brougham and Eldorado. These radials had a rather narrow single whitewall. Radials were a popular option for 1972 - 1974 with the single narrow whitewall. Steel-belted whitewall radials are standard equipment for 1975 and 1976. There was a shortage in 1976 of available tires from Cadillac suppliers and after May 17, 1976 through the remainder of the year models were shipped with no spare. ( The valve stem, wheel and jack were supplied) When enough tires became available, the spares were shipped to dealers and retrofitted.   

[Lexi]

Interesting. We need more stuff like this on the Forum. I wasn't sure how far back radials went with Cadillac. Nice work Eric/Greg. Clay/Lexi

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

All the driving credentials in the world and $2.22 buys a cup of coffee. I am talking about net cost of ownership- which can be positive or negative (a/k/a getting paid to own) depending on how one plays his/her cards which includes how the car is treated. In the six years you've been here, you have spent more money with more breakdowns on a single car than I have on four or five cars combined, over the course of twenty years or more. 

When the time comes that it must be sold (as they all are sooner or later), how many chips left on the table is what will count as much as the fun had along the way, if not more.

Eric, have you nothing better to do than count my money? You'll be sitting there for a while son. I *DRIVE* my
car, you dust yours, there's a difference. And if you were actually paying attention to my posts, you'd KNOW the
car has been willed to Michael's 3 year old son, The Ark doesn't get sold, it goes on, FOREVER with the Amsters.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

I get it, but I can only judge by what I read. Presumeably Laurie doesn't drive the car like "The Little old Lady from Pasedena" either. It is really up to Laurie to define her driving habits as the phrase she used carries what may be an incorrect connotation. Eric and I were quite clear on how our cars are driven and under what cirumstances they are used. I believe in Laurie's case radials were already available for Cadillac in 1970, with her car probably having had them installed when new. So more of a reason for her to use them as her vehicle's front end was engineered for their installation, as opposed to some earlier vehicles. Clay/Lexi

Nope, bias plys. Remember I took The Ark's original spare out, a bias ply, and had it replaced with a new
Diamond Back so all 5 matched. The stench of the inside of that tire and 54 year old air was incredible.
And it still held perfect pressure. That tire was washed and is in my attic now, I'll do something with it.

[gkhashem]

Laurie, not sure why this thread seems to be a bit heated.

Most of the suggestions here are trying to be helpful to you since you seem to be always spending money on the car. I have currently 8 cars and have had up to 11 at one time. Most of my costs have occurred upon purchase trying to get an inactive car active. Also fixing items that time has taken its toll on.

While the cost of maintenance and upkeep gets costly, you seemed to be a magnet for issues. Maybe the issue is you and your driving. You post your issues and people are making some suggestions.

Instead the topic has veered off into safety and other areas.

So now I will state my opinion. A Cadillac is supposed to make a statement by arriving. The look, the elegance, just making the appearance. It's presence just makes all around stop and admire it. A Cadillac is not a race car, a car that lays rubber, or makes jack rabbit starts, in its day it was luxury. Luxury is not loud, overt, or obnoxious. A Cadillac is supposed to be a class act and play the part. No other embellishment is needed other than its presence.

The other issue is age. So to relate it to a human. I at my age do not move as recklessly as I did 40 years ago. I no longer play basketball, throw a baseball overhand, or run 5Ks or run up and down a flight of stairs. While I could maybe still for a short time I would be asking for trouble or injury.

So when you drive "like you stole it" you are putting undue stress on an old machine that cannot end up well eventually.

So the morale of the story is drive it as you like but don't whine about the consequences.

[Lexi]

Most of the suggestions here are trying to be helpful to you since you seem to be always spending money on the car...So when you drive "like you stole it" you are putting undue stress on an old machine that cannot end up well eventually.

Like the other posters, just trying to be helpful. I do worry about the Ark as I have also wondered about why there have been so many repairs. As Laurie herself said to you earlier in this post George, that it is (quote) "Important to remember I beat on this car like a rented mule, if there's a weakness, we'll find it.". Perhaps indicative of too much "beating"? I twice owned a 1969 Cadillac. Would have driven very similar to Laurie's '70. Those cars drive so different from my '50s Cad. No comparison. You can be lulled into a false sense of security with them, but now they are still old cars. Clay/Lexi