Solved!!! Won't run after going thru a huge puddle

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

......Will get it figured out. All it takes is time, money and a lot of brainpower................ Wait, what were we talking about again???

So what was the solution???   

The solution that caused the problem was Water.

Bruce.

[Jon S]

Jeff

Water caused the problem. Am curious how you resolved it in case it should happen to me or an other member ...

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Jon,

My response was a play on words, from both the previous posts.

Jeff ended his post with "Wait, what were we talking about again??? , and you "forgot" what the Solution was, and it was Water.

At this stage, the problem hasn't been solved, so there is no completed solution to the initial problem of water ingress.

Bruce.

[Jon S]

G'day Jon,

My response was a play on words, from both the previous posts.

Jeff ended his post with "Wait, what were we talking about again??? , and you "forgot" what the Solution was, and it was Water.

At this stage, the problem hasn't been solved, so there is no completed solution to the initial problem of water ingress.

Bruce.

Oh, I missed that. Hope it gets resolved soon. I'm curious but still think it's in the distributor.

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

No fix yet...... Will keep you updated. Don't worry, i want to post the answer more than anyone else!!!

[bcroe]

I had that happen a few times when I had points cars, didn't do well when covered by
frost either.  There was actually a spray for the high tension parts that kept water out,
kind of a thin coating till the first time it needed to come apart again.  Never had this
problem with the higher tension stuff on an HEI. 

It should run without the wire from the starter; that just boosts it for starting, not
really needed in warm weather.  I would very briefly try the 12V wire directly to the
coil, and see if the coil output delivers a good spark.  If yes, its a matter of getting the
distributor & plug wires back.  I don't understand how it can run, then stalls. 
good luck, Bruce Roe

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

Solved... Condenser.
Tried several things.  Even wondering if there was a fuel issue because it would run and stall.  I even replaced the fuel filter today but that didn't work--Inch and a quarter socket by the way.
Had spark, then didn't.  Spark then no.  Had an old coil that I threw on, no luck.  Old points, no luck.  Disconnected the positive to the coil and hotwired it, no luck.  Checked the cap for cracks, none.  Pulled and dried every wire, no luck.  Was going to go buy a new set of points and condenser but a guy close had this old rusted pathetic looking condenser and I threw it on just to see what happened....... Started first crank and ran like a top.  Drove it home 15 miles, even 60+ on the highway. 
One thing that I found was damage to the positive battery cable.  It ran thru an adel type clamp by the passenger side exhaust.  The clamp was split and the insulation was burned off.  Now thinking 1 of 2 things happened here.  One, the water went up over the top of the coil, shorted and burned up the condenser, or did the water pull the battery cable thru the clamp, short it out and an electrical spike burned up the condenser (the battery cable was new by the way as was just about everything else). 
Now that it is home, I will give it another once over, replace the positive battery cable and put in a fresh condenser (I won't be able to sleep at night knowing there is a dirty, rusted condenser under that cap).
Thanks again for all the input guys----
Jeff

[Jon S]

Glad you got it running!  Great news!

[James Landi]

Jeff ..thanks terrific....your patience and and diagnostic focus paid off.  Congratulations...

[chrisntam]

That is good news.  More "experience" in wrenchin'!  Ain't it fun???  It's fun when it's done!  Otherwise, not so much. 

I am in the middle of replacing rear springs and shocks on my car and it took me about half a day just to do one side.  I was so sore from laying on the ground that I need 7 days to heal.  My hips on both sides are bruised from laying on the ground working on the car.  Gonna give it another go this Saturday.

I do have a question, since you pulled the motor and put it back in, have you gone back over all the nuts and bolts to make sure they are tight?  I used to do that 30 years ago when I would work on my cars and I always found one or two that needed re-tightening.

Do others do this or is it just me?

[Scot Minesinger]

Jeff,

Thanks for posting the solution, was fairly certain that was it, the runs and then stops is the giveaway.  One of my friends who hired a mechanic to fix the same issue replaced the timing chain on his 72 Buick (and the chain was replaced recently) - it was just the condenser.  You did better than him.

Yes, Chrisntam is right, I go over everything and sometimes found a loose nut and/or bolt after a major job like this.  Definitely re-torque the carb to intake manifold bolts, they are always loose after the gasket compresses some. 

Chrisntam,

The best way to replace the springs is to jack the car up, support axle, remove shock.  Drop axle as far as it will go without hurting rear brake rubber line.  Then compress the spring with a good set of spring compressors.  Then compress new spring to install and then release.  This way you can install easily both sides in a leisurely afternoon.  I have done this several times.  This is one time I do not use the shop manual - they make it sound like you did.  Are you replacing the bushings in rear suspension arms too?  I have done that several times - what fun. 

[chrisntam]

Thanks for the tip Scot, will use a spring compressor on the pass side.   Wasn't looking forward to disconnecting the mildly rusted lines, was worried I'd be replacing steel lines.    I replaced ALC springs with Moog Cargo Coils.  I'll post pics when I'm done.  I was surprised how tall the ALC spring was compared to the replacement, and the replacement lifted the rear by about 2 inches, which was needed.  By the way, I took your advice to abandon the ALC system altogether (and install regular springs) but I'm saving all the old parts for a rainy day.........

chris.

[bcroe]

That is good news.  More "experience" in wrenchin'!  Ain't it
fun???  It's fun when it's done!  Otherwise, not so much. 

I am in the middle of replacing rear springs and shocks on my car and it took me about half a day just to do one side.  I was so sore from laying on the ground that I need 7 days to heal.  My hips on both sides are bruised from laying on the ground working on the car.   

The key to any job is having the right tools.  That's why I got this lift; not really that expensive,
but it takes a lot of space.  Bruce Roe

[Scot Minesinger]

Bruce,

Nice lift.  Yes I elected not to go that way because it does take up a great deal of space.  Plus as my excuse in all cases the 1970 Cadillac shop manual says to "raise car on jack stands", it never says to use a lift.  This way I'm following the authentic pure directions - just kidding don't car about that, it is the space.


Chris,

Yes especially on a RWD the ALC is not necessary, and good idea to save the parts for a rainy day.  Many Cadillac owners with inactive vacuum compressor replace their air shocks with newer air shocks and run a compressed air line to the license plate area.  Then they add compressed air when system gets low with the explanation that they are preserving their ALC.  In fact that is worse because it is not automatic, and it is unlikely to be the correct height much of the time, negatively impacting alignment and drive ability.  When you consider replacement springs are just over $100 (Maybe yours were more), why would you not just replace the springs? 

[bcroe]

Chris,
Yes especially on a RWD the ALC is not necessary, and good idea to save the parts for a rainy day.  Many Cadillac owners with inactive vacuum compressor replace their air shocks with newer air shocks and run a compressed air line to the license plate area.  Then they add compressed air when system gets low with the explanation that they are preserving their ALC.  In fact that is worse because it is not automatic, and it is unlikely to be the correct height much of the time, negatively impacting alignment and drive ability.  When you consider replacement springs are just over $100 (Maybe yours were more), why would you not just replace the springs?   

Well regarding my 79 Eldo shown, I found it necessary to use KYB gas shocks to get the
handling required (already did heavy sway bars, body braces, etc).  KG4531 front, KG5573
rear.  My question is, what springs can be used for proper height or slightly high, with regular
shocks & no ALC?  Bruce Roe

[Scot Minesinger]

Bruce,

The FWD is a completely different thing and they were standard with ALC from the factory since inception in 1967.

Many club members say to use the air shocks and a manual fill by the license plate (Schrader valve) and not have the automatic compressor.  This to me seems the worse way to go because the system is now not automatic.  The system loses air over time, starts to noticeably sag and the owner injects compressed air until gauging height of car by eye or press in air shocks.  My guess is that the cars are seldom driven and the owners perhaps tolerant of a less than factory original ride/handling experience.  The height of rear effects alignment.

Ideally you will stay with a good performing ALC on a FWD Cadillac of the 67-85 vintage.  I think in 78 they were electric compressors which would seem better and easier to replace.

You know I'm working on a 1972 Eldorado.  There are some KYB shocks advertised for a 72 Eldorado that are not air shocks and I'm going to try them out.  They claim to maintain height and do not let car change height with different weight distributions - we will see.  Certainly shocks have improved technology since 1972. 

With 300lbs of salt bags in front to represent two passengers and a full tank of gas I will adjust front height of suspension via torsion rod adjustment until car is level with those rear shocks.  After that will get aligned and test drive.  If this fails, I will go to the ALC with a 78 Eldo electric system.  Will keep you posted.

For RWD Cadillacs would never bother with ALC.  Others disagree I know and that is what makes the club interesting.

[gary griffin]

Bruce,

   My 4 post lift is the best thing in my 4 car garage, I can store a car and a motorcycle up there.  I wish I had clearance in the other 3 bays for 3 more lifts.

[bcroe]

Bruce,

The FWD is a completely different thing and they were standard with ALC from the factory since inception in 1967.

Many club members say to use the air shocks and a manual fill by the license plate (Schrader valve) and not have the automatic compressor.  This to me seems the worse way to go because the system is now not automatic.  The system loses air over time, starts to noticeably sag and the owner injects compressed air until gauging height of car by eye or press in air shocks.  My guess is that the cars are seldom driven and the owners perhaps tolerant of a less than factory original ride/handling experience.  The height of rear effects alignment.

Ideally you will stay with a good performing ALC on a FWD Cadillac of the 67-85 vintage.  I think in 78 they were electric compressors which would seem better and easier to replace.

You know I'm working on a 1972 Eldorado.  There are some KYB shocks advertised for a 72 Eldorado that are not air shocks and I'm going to try them out.  They claim to maintain height and do not let car change height with different weight distributions - we will see.  Certainly shocks have improved technology since 1972. 

With 300lbs of salt bags in front to represent two passengers and a full tank of gas I will adjust front height of suspension via torsion rod adjustment until car is level with those rear shocks.  After that will get aligned and test drive.  If this fails, I will go to the ALC with a 78 Eldo electric system.  Will keep you posted.

For RWD Cadillacs would never bother with ALC.  Others disagree I know and that is what makes the club interesting.         

My problem is, how to select springs that will compensate for the removal of
the ALC.  That, and I have "Touring" suspension.  And just to add to that I
found the rear window too low to allow seeing very far behind.  To compensate
I have run the rear a little high and moved the rear view mirror down half a foot. 

Perhaps the spring height at the applied load, and the lb per inch could
be used to select the correct spring. 

I have had 3 of these 79 E cars over 3 decades.  It seems to me the ALC is just
one of the "luxury" items that come on the top models.  For my RWD cars I
have added air bags to the springs; in case of an extra heavy load, I can get
proper level.  Unfortunately ALC is prone to failure, and prevents use of
enhanced (gas) shocks to improve performance.  Might have to use air bags
on the 79.  The front is no problem with torsion bars.  Bruce Roe

[mgbeda]

Hey Chris,

I'm kind of surprised that you are having that much trouble replacing rear springs.  I've done them twice (once for replaced springs, once for a replaced axle) on my '76 DeVille and it was really easy.  I know the '70 is a different chassis but I didn't think it was that different.

This was my procedure.  Raise car on jackstands on frame ahead of rear axle. Support axle with jack in middle.  Disconnect shocks at axle.  Lower axle as far as it will go.  At this point, at least sometimes, the springs fall out.  If not use the jack to raise the opposite side of the axle.  This will cause the not-jacked side to lower slightly, and then the spring should just come out.  I never had to use a compressor on the back springs.

For shocks you might have a problem getting out the two fairly small bolts and nuts that attach the top of the shock.  I got a really cheap open end wrench (I think it was 1/2 inch) and made a 90 degree bend in the middle of it (that's why I needed a cheap one, so it would bend) to hold those nuts on top while I took the bolts out the bottom with a socket.

Again that's on a '76...

-mB

[Scot Minesinger]

Bruce,

I do not know what springs to use.  The ones on the car were made to work in partnership with adjustable air shocks.  So they have less ability to keep car level with such wide variance of weight.  The RWD cars have an extra couple hundred pounds in the back, and so the trunk, gas tank, and rear passengers do not create such a large span of weight deviation for the springs to manage.  I see some time just regular shocks, with torsion bars adjusted to nice level height, and it works well unless there is a large trunk load.

Unfortunately there was not an option to delete ALC.  You might check with 79 Olds Toranado or Buick Riviera non-ALC (if it existed) and use those springs.