'76 eldo with 100K original miles. I have noticed an intermittent lifter tick especially when cold. I try to start her up once per week but lately it has become noticeable. This is not a constant loud noise. I did have luck adding 1/2 quart of marvel mystery oil a few months ago which eliminated the noise and I noticed the performance had returned. Sadly now, even with that MMO in the crankcase I hear the noise and it has a slightly rough idle with popping out of the tailpipe. This typically goes away after about 30 minutes of brisk driving but it is plaguing the car at start-up. Any suggestions short of tearing the head off? :-X
Frank,
I note that you start your car, and I assume, let it idle during winter storage. Your practice appears to be intuitively correct; however, it's truly a very very bad idea. Unless your engine is provided with a sufficient driving distance, and under load, you're creating a lot of condensation in your engine... that's accumulating and causing rust and sludge. I pass on this information and advice to you as the topic has been discussed on this forum before. As a "shade tree mechanic" for many decades, I can attest to the destructive mess that's created in short cycle gasoline engine use. Using the Marvel Oil is good practice, but nothing less than a long drive without 'heavy footing" the gas pedal will likely cure your sticking lifters. Hope my comment simulates other members to weigh in on your issue. James
"
Most valvetrain components can be viewed/inspected/replaced by simply removing a valve cover. To remove lifters, you'll need to remove the intake manifold. There's no need to remove a head unless you find an issue with the valves (I found chewed-up valve stems on my '74).
Rarely, will you ever find Cadillac lifters going bad. Even at 100,000 miles. Put your money on the rockers themselves. They wear at the valve stem contact point.
A couple suggestions:
With mention of a popping in the exhaust there might be a sticking valve, try adding marvel (4oz for 10 gal) to the FUEL. If your area uses alcohol blended fuel it degrades in months ...verify the fuel is fresh, a classic sign of stale fuel is sticking valves....followed with seized valves in their guides. A valve not Fully returning (closing) adds to clearances that the lifter cannot compensate and therefore a Ticking noise results.
Could the car be flooding...too rich cold?
A leaking fuel pump can introduce fuel in the crankcase and that can dilute the oil to cause a ticking noise. This would be less of an intermittent issue.
I had a wiped lobe at ~50k miles in my '74. If you go to the trouble of removing valve covers, you can check the lift of the cam lobes to see if any of them are worn.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yep, this above. Particularly the intake lobes, if it's poping on acceleration.
Quote from: Big Fins on January 19, 2022, 01:25:39 PM
Rarely, will you ever find Cadillac lifters going bad. Even at 100,000 miles. Put your money on the rockers themselves. They wear at the valve stem contact point.
I hope you are indeed correct. Also forgot to mention I have been adding 4oz/10 gal MMO into the fuel. I don't think it's a wiped lobe due to intermittent symptoms. I let it run for about 40 minutes one evening after driving home and then went for a brisk drive and it idled like a dream and had plenty of pickup. I have read before that the big block Cadillacs and notorious for low oil pressure. I do not think its a matter of a lifter "going bad" maybe just not enough oil made it down the passage to the lifter on the far side near the firewall.
I want to keep this thread going for future reference. I plan on pulling the valve covers soon when I get a warm day to inspect the rockers and will give an update.
I'm glad to know that you're going to keep the thread going, because it's not an uncommon challenge. I am respectfully suggesting, though, that you give yourself an opportunity to experiment a bit more by specifically altering your winter start up regime, as follows: 1. Don't run the car at idle... take it on the road when the weather permits, and simply drive it (lovingly) for ten miles to provide a thorough warm up which will allow the PCV to pull out all of the moisture in the engine and the oil. I think your issue, which may to be a stuck valve stem and potentially a lifter and or bent push rod, might respond well to a new regime. If you decide to open the valve covers, pay close attention to any valve that does not "slap" shut when you push and release the spring tension on each valve stem--- this would be indicative of some rust on the valve stem that is hanging up the valve and NOT allowing it to close shut (at times). Then take note of any push rod that does not rotate when the engine is running--- that's a tell tail of worn parts in the hydraulic or a push rod or rocker arm. Hope this helps, James
Ditto on James' advice. My experience has not been with 472/500 engines but this is a common symptom with the other 1960s and 70s brands that I have stored. When I put the car on a regular monthly driving schedule the symptom has disappeared. Hopefully, your car will respond to the extra attention and fresh air.
I asked my mechanic who is used to working on cars of this vintage. He is telling me to run 2 quarts of ATF and top off with clean oil and filter, run the car for 3-5 minutes at 2000rpm, then change the oil and filter again. I am nervous about doing this and don't want to damage the bearings. Anyone have experience with running ATF?
ATF is effectively the same principle as marvel mystery oil. I substitute it frequently. It is an old technique. I personally prefer to not exceed one quart per crankcase.
I, too, am familiar with this old school approach. You might consider installing a mechanical oil pressure gauge under the hood so you can assertain the base line oil pressure (when up to temperature) before you add the "flushing agent," at idle and at 2000 rpms (by the way, when hot, these engines may only push less than 10 pounds of pressure--- that's normal). Just my opinion, so don't take "it to the bank," but I don't think you'll do any damage, and I think the recommended "flush" may cure the issue. Rust on valve stems can be hard to break though, so you may have to perform some diagnostic surgery, depending, off course, on whether you can cure the issue with the flush and a new approach to winter starts and runs. By the way, I've owned big block twin engine gas powered boats for decades, and I've never started them up during the winter lay ups. Last year my boat was launched after a 3 year slumber--- I cranked both engines without applying ignitiions for maybe 20 seconds, and both started and idled without any odd mechanical noises--- all this is to say, you can do much more harm by starting winter stored cars and not putting them under load and driving them for 10 miles or so, to get all that nasty condensation out of the insides. Hope this helps, James
"... you can do much more harm by starting winter stored cars and not putting them under load and driving them for 10 miles or so, to get all that nasty condensation out of the insides."
My 2 cents --- totally agree with James Landi and others who have mentioned this.
Another question is how long have you had this car and how much have you driven it? We sometimes hear stores like this and find out this is happening with about 10 miles of driving on a car that stat a long time. That's way different than having this issue suddenly come up on a car that you regularly drive.
A minor issue like this I would just get fresh oil in it and and put some highway miles on it. I have had many cars that ran 100x better after some fresh oil and burning a couple tanks of fresh gas on the highway.
All good suggestions here.. I have the car 6 years. It was my uncles who purchased it in 1996 from northern Michigan. To our knowledge, only the driver's side head gasket and water pump gasket was replaced. In 2020 I did the passenger exhaust manifold (huge job by the way!) but other than that, the engine has not been opened or overhauled. I noticed that since adding MMO the oil is the dirtiest I have ever seen for only 2k miles of use. ???
The car is not driven much and when it is, its typically around town. The most use the car will see in from June through September. I am renting a garage for it now that is 15 minutes from my new home. When I had the car in my garage at the old home, I would start and drive it more regularly. Now that I am commuting to the garage, I am more apt to just start it and not drive so far, maybe a few blocks. These cars need "work" as I was told by a friend. They typically don't rev above 2200rpm on the street due to low end torque.
Thanks to everyone for input. I am going to give the ATF a try and then change oil and filter, then go for a decent highway drive about 45 minutes to an hour and will give an update. It has not broken 30 deg in New York for about a week now, except for one day that was rainy and damp so I haven't had a chance to get the car out and about.
Frank,
THis is a good plan. If all goes well, the engine will provide reliable service. A word of caution: we're all tempted to push these 1/2 century old engines and running gear to their limits,"Let's see what it will do." I grew up with used Cadillacs, and learned (the hard way) that simply driving them with respectful tenderness and love, that they'll run well for decades. If pushed to their limits, something major and very costly will break. Another suggestion: the original specifications for tire inflation limits tire pressure to the low 20 psi. There's a noticable improvement in road isolation if you run your tire pressure as recommended. Fact is that tire pressure under 20 psi is potentially dangerous, however, the Cadillac recommended psi is marginally above that inflation. Keep us in the loop with your car., and when you have time, post some pictures. In the meantime, stay warm and safe. James
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You NEED to replace the timing gears. I would avoid driving much until that's done. When you do that, you can inspect/refresh your valve train.
https://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=154660.msg424523#msg424523
Those pressure recommendations in 1976 were for old style radial tires, if you are running modern radial tires, the absolute minimum would be 28 psi for that heavy car and even that is too low. Radial tire construction (and materials) is not the same as it was in the mid-to-late '70s and pressures back then are not proper for today's modern radial tires. The generally accepted pressure for automobile radial tires is 32 to 35 psi (check the driver's door jamb for recommended pressures on any car with modern radial tires).
I had similar issues and I ended up just swapping the heads on my 500 with a set of rebuilt heads I had. Problem solved. I believe one or more valves were burnt due to having bad valve seals. Just throwing this out there.
This may sound like a stupid question, but--
Does the lifter tick seem to come from the same place every time?
The reason I ask is that I chased a tick for a while but didn't seem to always come from the same place.
Turns out the pivot holes on the rockers were worn and the rockers had a little wobble to them. I ended up removing all of them and measuring them up to the closest pedestal and it took care of the problem.
Took me a while to figure that out.
As for starting it and letting it run, I agree with everyone-- Bad idea.
Once I changed the oil on a plane that had been sitting and was cold. That had a quick drain on it so it was easy to see the oil that first came out of it without my hand blocking it by holding the drain plug.
Almost a thimble's worth of water came out. Starting yours and not letting it fully warm up just puts all that moisture up in your engine.
Good luck,
Jeff
Are you sure its not an exhaust leak at the manifold? Those can sound like a tick and change with engine temp. These engines are known to be hard on exhaust manifold gasket if you use them.
Quote from: hornetball on January 22, 2022, 10:31:57 AM
You NEED to replace the timing gears. I would avoid driving much until that's done. When you do that, you can inspect/refresh your valve train.
https://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=154660.msg424523#msg424523
Hornetball, was the car running strangely prior to tackling the timing set? As far as noises, it doesn't sound like an exhaust leak but I could be wrong. It sounds like a metallic clacking. I remember the noise on the pass side exhaust manfiold which I have fixed.
I am restoring the body this winter and don't want to start a new project at the moment. I have heard that the timing set on this car is a real issue and have been putting this off. Mine has the original timing set which I'm sure is cracked due to the constant changing of seasons here. :-\ I was contemplating pulling the engine eventually and doing everything at once: rear main seal, intake manifold refresh and gaskets, heads ground down and trued, timing set etc however I heard this is a huge job and I don't know of any mechanics who are willing to do this in my area.
Car wasn't running great due to 3 bad camshaft lobes and some valve stem problems/plugged pushrods. The timing gear wasn't causing an issue, but it was about to go (big cracks). And when it goes, you lose your timing and plug your oil pickup with little plastic parts. Not good. That's why I recommend sooner than later -- you're right at the mileage where it's "ready."
Here is an update on my situation. I was having another issue besides the rough idle where my secondaries were not kicking in when the car was warm. I had to manually pull the fast idle down and out of the way, otherwise that linkage would lock onto the steel pin which goes through the secondary shaft. I attached a picture below which shows this lockout mechanism with the choke assembly removed. I continued to have a rough idle, however the clacking is gone which I attribute to driving the car more frequently in warmer weather.
(https://cdn-0.gbodyforum.com/attachments/carb8-jpg.99847/)
I had a local guy come check my car out this morning who described as being a carburetor guru. He could not figure out where the problem was with my secondary lock-out. He really didn't have any good answer as to why it was binding and didn't show much interest. As for my idle, he said just to turn up the idle speed to mask the symptoms because it's an old car. I smiled and said all was good, but I knew this was unacceptable. He said I must be one of the OCD types. I kindly explained Cadillac enthusiasts don't want to go fast or drag race; rather we expect our cars to idle smoothly an it should be an effortless drive. I also explained how these cars should not "bang" into gear, which is common when the base idle is set too high at around 1000rpm. These engines have gobs of torque, and who could imagine buying a new cadillac in those days that made a loud bang and shuddered when going from park to reverse.
I wasn't satisfied with my local guy's answer. I then called Steve's carburetor repair in NJ, as I remember being told he was one of the best around for quadrajets. I spoke to Steve himself who told me to come by to have the car looked over. Upon his inspection, it seems my fast idle lever was binding up on a small nylon piece that was popping out of the front choke pull off. We changed to a new working pull off unit and the linkage seemed to move freely without binding up. One problem solved!
Then to the idle speed screws. He used a special tool to set the idle speed screws which looked like a long ratchet, all by feel and without a vacuum gauge. The whole process took about 5-10 minutes. I then took the car around the block and WOW! Idle was nice a smooth; no more shuddering when coming to a stop sign. No more slamming into reverse or drive when going out of park; occasionally a small hiccup but barely noticeable. I was told my motor mounts are shot and this would help with any small vibration left. Overall I am happy with how the car runs. I advise anyone in the Tri-State area needing a rebuild to check out Steve as he really knows his stuff.
The old timers would put the "stethoscope" on it and listen for which lifter was talking.
I'm of the opposite opinion all the "junk" in your oil and fuel is making things worse - carbon-ing it up.
This is a "top end" job usually to diagnose and fix. You have to ask yourself is it worth it? And what else you might find? What harm may be inflicted during tear down? Like shear off a head bolt, etc.
At over a 100K, things start to go wrong/wear out big time. You're in the major overhaul category or drive it as it is and don't worry about the noise, til it really starts clacking all the time. You might get away with a retorq on the valve train, but I suspect you dished one and that causes slack and if you tighten it down, it'll wear more.
I am planning on how to tackle this engine. I am in the midst of doing a full body restoration, including replacement of the door hinge bushings, new passenger door shell, and new rear quarters.
In order to do a timing set, does the oil pan have to come off? I was told the oil pan on an Eldorado is a huge job which involves lifting the engine to clear the front cross member. I also have a rear main seal leak which needs to be addressed. I am wondering if I could also drop the trans and freshen up the engine, maybe with muriatic acid to clean the crud. All of this is to be done next winter hopefully, but in the time being I am wondering how big of a job the timing set would be.
Quote from: hotrod095 on May 12, 2022, 10:10:47 PM
I am planning on how to tackle this engine. I am in the midst of doing a full body restoration, including replacement of the door hinge bushings, new passenger door shell, and new rear quarters.
In order to do a timing set, does the oil pan have to come off? I was told the oil pan on an Eldorado is a huge job which involves lifting the engine to clear the front cross member. I also have a rear main seal leak which needs to be addressed. I am wondering if I could also drop the trans and freshen up the engine, maybe with muriatic acid to clean the crud. All of this is to be done next winter hopefully, but in the time being I am wondering how big of a job the timing set would be.
G'day Frank,
Firstly, there is no such thing with these FWD Eldorados as simply dropping the Transmission with the engine in the car as these are not as easy as the RWD configurations.
Granted, the Engine can be removed without the Trans, but it is really an awful juggling act getting both back together with the trans in place.
I find that it is easier to pull the engine, with the Trans attached, then remove said Trans whilst out of the car, then do all the work necessary with the engine on the Engine Stand.
You definitely need the Shop Manual and follow the instructions to the letter, but you don't need a vehicle hoist, as a trolley jack will work, but, not one of those cheapies. Plus, use Jackstands.
You don't have to disconnect the AC Pump either. This is explained in the Shop Manual.
Bruce. >:D
You don't have to pull the engine to tackle the timing chain. Do a search. It is a non-standard procedure to deal with the locating pins and get crush on the bottom timing chain cover gasket, but it is doable (I did it).
The caveat is that if you find the nylon on the camshaft gear is gone, then it is likely in little pieces in your oil pickup. In that case, the oil pan has to come off, and the only way to do that is to pull the engine.
The power unit (engine/transmission combo) is heavy and will require a decent hoist -- but the worst part is pulling off the 300# hood. Once the hood is off, pulling the power unit is straightforward.
I changed the chain set also without pulling the pan. It's a PITA, but it can be done.
If there are any of the nylon teeth coverings missing, then they will be in the pan, or, worse, in the oil pick-up screen.
This was what I found when I dropped the sump in my '72 Eldo. It took me an hour to remove the pieces by shaking, rattling and rolling, then carefully poking and prodding to make sure that I got it all out.
I am pretty sure that even though I had good oil pressure, the restriction caused by the mess wouldn't have helped the oiling system.
Bruce. >:D
PS. The only thing I forgot to do was to take a picture looking up into the screen. Everything that is on the rag was inside that screen.
PPS. I was surprised that the engine still ran well, but tuning it was hard, as the chain was so stretched and loose. The way i found it was that I tried the manual turning of the crank, whilst watching the Rotor in the Distributor, and it took a long time for it to start turning in the opposite direction.
Hi everyone,
I'm reviving this thread in hopes in helps somebody trying to get their car running smooth.
I pulled the car out of storage after 7 months just last week. I pulled my steering wheel sometime in March to have it repaired by Gary in Carlisle, PA. He did an outstanding job but it took a bit longer than expected. Wheel is looking great and so far I have no complaints, but I can't yet comment on longevity obviously.
So I joined a new car club and brought the car out to the first show in years after being in the body shop last summer. I had the car running really poorly, stumbling on and off idle, but cruising pretty well. I spoke to a buddy of mine and sounded ready to just give up on the car. Basically he was telling me don't give up yet, these cars are awesome when running just right, and just take my time. I had brought the car last year to a shop in NJ that works on classic cars, and basically their reply to my rough idle was 'live with it or rebuild.'
I wasn't ready to rebuild the engine just yet as it's the start of the cruising season here in the northeast. So after the show I brought the car home and followed the shop manual steps of tuning the idle mixture screws (shift lever in Drive, parking brake on, parking brake and vacuum advance hoses plugged) all while using a vacuum gauge for guidance. After a few hours of fumbling with it I finally started with 3 turns out on both screws, making sure they were even, then slowly backing out little by little a 1/4 turn. Finally got the car running to where it is once again a pleasure to cruise around. I did some more tinkering tonight by turning the screws clockwise (lean) another 1/4 a turn or so each. WOW what a difference! I can barely feel the car run when at a stoplight. Hope this helps.
-Frank
Frank,
So glad to know that you've managed to smooth out your rough running engine. The carburetors can foul internally in the idle passages that are associated with those "idle adjustment" screws. On a couple of occasions, smooth running engines put into storage for winter came out of storage impossible to keep running at idle. I discovered that FUEL SEPARATION can occur where ethanol gas evaporates in the carburetor leaving a fine sandy deposit that cakes up in those tiny idle passages. Using GUM OUT did not dislodge the crud. The fix is elegantly simple... by backing out the idle screws and forcing compressed air directly into the screw holes, I've witnessed the brown crud jetting out into the carburetor throat... problem solved. James
Carbon on the valves is a big problem with engines since the 60's. Get some GM Top Engine Cleaner or BG Induction Cleaner. Have the engine at normal operating temperature and slowly drip the fluid into the carb. Do this outside.
Use a plastic bottle with a drip type cap, some 1/4" tubing, and drip nozzle for watering plants. Put all but about 1/4 of the cleaner in the bottle and hang it from the hood and let it drip at a rate that does not kill the engine. When the bottle is empty, pour the remainder in the carb to kill the engine. Let it soak for about an hour, start the engine, and immediately take for drive at highway speeds if possible. It will smoke badly, but will clear up. If it develops a miss, pull the plugs and clean off the carbon chunks.