1970s Goodbye & thanks.

[gkhashem]

What is sadly lost on the old guard is that cliquey clubs like this are on their way to becoming a thing of the past. There is a reason why gatherings like Cars and Coffee are rapidly gaining in popularity all over the place, while these kinds of old car clubs are on the decline. An awful lot of people simply cannot understand or accept that, even when it stares them straight in the face. But more importantly, they don't understand WHY.. I'm sitting here trying to explain it to you, and instead of debating the points, so many resort to all manner of ways to either change the subject or to try to turn it around on the person who tries to point it out to them. Attacking the messenger because you simply can't debate on the merits.

It doesn't matter what answer I give you. Whether I tell you I'm a member of zero clubs or 37, your opinion of me and my credibility is already set in stone. I'm an outsider, not part of your clique, so my opinion is entirely irrelevant to you. That's why the old guard is in decline, and a new generation of car shows and enthusiast gatherings is rapidly growing. Folks that are truly in it for the love of the cars - It's not about who you know or who you hobnob with. But for so many of you it is. It's another way to show off for the clique. I've been going to big car shows since I was a teenager, I've been working on cars my entire adult life, I run a restoration shop where literally all I do is build, restore and maintain classic cars for people who actually drive them. Dare I say, I'm far more deeply immersed in the classic car world than most of the people here. I've contributed so much in terms of keeping so many of these cars on the road, putting them back on the road after someone cast them aside, and helping a lot of people have a lot of fun with their beloved old cars. I have introduced numerous people to the hobby, young and old, and brought many people to the many, many car shows I've gone to over the years. I've spent huge amounts of my own money on my own cars, and incalculable amounts spent by others for me to fix and restore their old cars. So excuse me if I COMPLETELY dismiss the absurd notion that spending money on joining a car club is somehow the gold standard upon which someone's credibility or acceptance in this world should be judged. Dare I say, I've contributed MUCH more to the hobby as a whole than most of you here.

So you want to know and understand why I have no interest in joining your cliquey club? Because you aren't in it for the cars nearly as much as I am, you're in it for the popularity contest. For the who you know and who you hobnob with factor. It's the same on almost all clubs like this. A handful of the most popular members of the clique circle around the outsider in an attempt to wear him down and drive him away, so you can preserve your echo chamber. You will succeed in your efforts with most people. They will seek out advice and info elsewhere, because most people do not have enough fight or interest in them to take on these battles. Well I do, which is why several of you have honed in your efforts to drive me out. Because I represent a real challenge to the status quo. Like I said, the model is dying off. We all know it, but apparently only some of us know why. The old guard hasn't figured it out yet and likely never will. They will simply watch their numbers decline and wonder why, despite people like me explaining it to you.

The people who need to hear this the most are the ones pushing back the hardest on me. You simply cannot handle someone with REAL passion and conviction who disagrees with you. Well you can turn away from it, but you can't make it go away. What's the next step? Banning me entirely? Talk about proving my point entirely in front of the entire audience. You've got a number of leaders of the old guard who've stepped up and locked swords. But there's plenty of others quietly watching this and seeing what's going on here and not liking it any more than I do. Don't think this will affect your membership in the end? Boy, are you in for some serious disappointment. Just don't say I didn't tell you exactly what will happen.

Just as I thought none.

I care not to analyze your motives on a forum but I have a few good guesses. In a few days you will be locked out. This is really a waste of time and bandwidth. In reality you really have no say in the matter, since you are not part of the "clique" as you like to call all of the members here.

While the jury is out on the changes being made, you seem to know the answer already. I think the attempt to obtain some new members is worth trying, since continuing on the path the CLC is now on is not working as shown by dwindling memberships. You want to continue the status quo which is almost certain to end badly in so many years hence. I say be proactive and try something, since surely to do nothing is not the solution.

[wrefakis]

Suggestion do not pay 25$ register on bring a trailer for 0$,and join the other 1000,s of armchair experts,because if 2.08 per month breaks the bank,I doubt you maintain a collection of Cadillacs

[56Fleetwood]

I consider CLC membership to be the best tool in my toolbox. The things I've learned via the Forum have saved me more than $25 a year, so my membership has paid for itself many times over.

To any non members "sitting on the fence" I urge you to join. Put the best tool you'll ever own in your toolbox.

[Lexi]

Yes it is the best tool in the tool box. Well said Mike. Clay/Lexi

[MultipleCaddies]

About a dozen years ago, voters in our state decided they wanted nothing more to do with allowing people to smoke in public places including bars, bowling alleys, social halls & restaurants.

You would've thought the world was coming to an end the comments so many people posted and of course, the TV news stories. They were insistent, it was impossible to consume an alcoholic drink without a cigarette in their hand.

For years earlier, whenever you went to a restaurant and were asked if you wanted to sit in the smoking or non-smoking section, the smoking section would be mostly empty while the non-smoking section was full. You had a choice; you wait for a seat to open up in the non-smoking section or take your chances and be seated in the smoking section where at any moment they could also seat someone next to you that their cigarette smoke would blow over into your face and as a non-smoker it could ruin the enjoyment of your meal.

Or perhaps you would visit states like Florida that already had the law in place not allowing smoking in restaurants. What a joy to know that you would be able to sit anywhere in a restaurant and not have to consume someone else's lousy cigarette smoke.

Finally, the day came, the law went into effect, and no more smoking in public places. Many of the facilities took the opportunity to wash their ceilings, maybe their walls. Clean the windows, and start fresh, smelling fresh, and not like a dirty ashtray.

As far as I know, none of those places went out of business, because you could no longer smoke your cigarette and drink your beer inside. People just changed and adapted. With the vast majority of people these days being non smokers,  it was a good change and we have never looked back. Well, maybe to laugh and recalled that at some point, you could smoke cigarettes even on an airplane.

Yep, there were a lot of unhappy people, but the vast majority were very satisfied with the new rules that were put in place.

There is little correlation between the two concepts. There is also enormous precedent with internet forums that anyone has the ability to research and verify for themselves. This isn't my opinion on what I think will happen here, this is long established precedent everywhere on the internet. Nobody seems to want to address that at all, they just completely ignore it and somehow assume that this forum will be different. But unfortunately, the absolute plethora of evidence to the contrary is going completely ignored by the powers that be here.

[MultipleCaddies]

Just as I thought none.

I care not to analyze your motives on a forum but I have a few good guesses. In a few days you will be locked out. This is really a waste of time and bandwidth. In reality you really have no say in the matter, since you are not part of the "clique" as you like to call all of the members here.

While the jury is out on the changes being made, you seem to know the answer already. I think the attempt to obtain some new members is worth trying, since continuing on the path the CLC is now on is not working as shown by dwindling memberships. You want to continue the status quo which is almost certain to end badly in so many years hence. I say be proactive and try something, since surely to do nothing is not the solution.

If this particular car club was the only one with declining memberships, you'd be absolutely correct in assuming that something is specifically wrong here that needs to change. The problem is that it is a hobby-wide problem, across nearly all of the traditional club models. Yet so many of you continue to ignore that rather than to try to figure out what the real underlying cause is. The car club model that involves barriers to entry is dying, hobby-wide. Some of us understand that and move on/adapt. The old guard simply cannot, and you'll keep throwing ideas at the wall in the hope that maybe one will stick.

[MultipleCaddies]

I consider CLC membership to be the best tool in my toolbox. The things I've learned via the Forum have saved me more than $25 a year, so my membership has paid for itself many times over.

To any non members "sitting on the fence" I urge you to join. Put the best tool you'll ever own in your toolbox.

People keep repeating this same generic line as though there is nothing to be gained from the THOUSANDS of free-to-use forums out there. That is of course absurd. I have gained TREMENDOUS value from many, many forums in my more than 20 years of using them. This argument falls completely flat. This forum is not the only source of info, nor is it the only one with knowledgable members. I honestly can't understand why so many people seem so convinced that THIS forum is somehow the gold standard that trumps all others, and is worthy of charging for its use when THOUSANDS of others remain free-to-use. Somehow that fact continues to completely elude so many here.

[MultipleCaddies]

Suggestion do not pay 25$ register on bring a trailer for 0$,and join the other 1000,s of armchair experts,because if 2.08 per month breaks the bank,I doubt you maintain a collection of Cadillacs

Again, assuming that someone is broke because they don't want to pay for something that is free almost everywhere else is just absurd. It betrays the lack of strength of your argument.

Who said I maintain a "collection of Cadillacs"? Not me. I own two at present. One is a decent driver, the other is a restoration project in progress. Believe it or not, I have more than $25 into both of them. But again, that was never the point, it's just a weak talking point that people with no basis to their argument try to use to win points from their buddies.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Man do I hate long "goodbyes"
Greg Surfas

[MultipleCaddies]

The key point that continues to go completely ignored by everyone here: When you put up barriers to entry, you reduce the number of people who enter. This is an incredibly easy concept to understand. There is almost nothing in existence that works on the model "make it more expensive or difficult to use while simultaneously making no changes to the product/service offered, and more people will want to use it". That's the model being proposed here. It's nearly guaranteed to fail.

[MultipleCaddies]

Man do I hate long "goodbyes"
Greg Surfas

It's goodbye for a little while, only for a little while..

Sound familiar?

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

People keep repeating this same generic line as though there is nothing to be gained from the THOUSANDS of free-to-use forums out there. That is of course absurd. I have gained TREMENDOUS value from many, many forums in my more than 20 years of using them. This argument falls completely flat. This forum is not the only source of info, nor is it the only one with knowledgable members. I honestly can't understand why so many people seem so convinced that THIS forum is somehow the gold standard that trumps all others, and is worthy of charging for its use when THOUSANDS of others remain free-to-use. Somehow that fact continues to completely elude so many here.

I hate to burst your bubble but everything you thought of has already been thought of. Every decision carries a cost/benefit which is weighed carefully. There's more to a great club than raw membership numbers alone.

[gkhashem]

The key point that continues to go completely ignored by everyone here: When you put up barriers to entry, you reduce the number of people who enter. This is an incredibly easy concept to understand. There is almost nothing in existence that works on the model "make it more expensive or difficult to use while simultaneously making no changes to the product/service offered, and more people will want to use it". That's the model being proposed here. It's nearly guaranteed to fail.

You forget the most important point. Website hosting ,storage, and administration IS NOT FREE.

So should the dues of the CLC members go up to remove that barrier to you? If the dues go up too much the members will not pay and thus no forum. Man, you are such a short term thinker, not thinking beyond your immediate needs or wants.

You forget one thing, every resource is scare. Why? How do I know? You pay a price for it. Fortunately for you it has been free in the past but not for us members. A very selfish and narrow view of the big picture. All we can say is this change might work or might not. But if 10-20% of the non members decide to join I would say the change may  be a success.

[MultipleCaddies]

You forget the most important point. Website hosting ,storage, and administration IS NOT FREE.

So should the dues of the CLC members go up to remove that barrier to you? If the dues go up too much the members will not pay and thus no forum. Man, you are such a short term thinker, not thinking beyond your immediate needs or wants.

You forget one thing, every resource is scare. Why? How do I know? You pay a price for it. Fortunately for you it has been free in the past but not for us members. A very selfish and narrow view of the big picture. All we can say is this change might work or might not. But if 10-20% of the non members decide to join I would say the change may  be a success.

I will ask this again, and so far nobody has even attempted to answer it: How is it that THOUSANDS of other forums all over the internet have figured out how to keep their lights on without putting paywalls up in order to participate? Many of these forums are MUCH larger than this one with MUCH more activity, thus much higher hosting bills, more moderation, etc.. What is this forum doing wrong that all these other forums are not?

[MultipleCaddies]

I hate to burst your bubble but everything you thought of has already been thought of. Every decision carries a cost/benefit which is weighed carefully. There's more to a great club than raw membership numbers alone.

What I'm trying to understand is how anyone came to the conclusion that putting up more barriers to entry is somehow going to increase club membership or participation. You aren't offering for your $25 fee that you weren't offering before, but you are closing off a potential source of new members. Can you explain to me where the new members will come from? What the club offers wasn't enough to get these people to sign up previously, but closing off the forum is somehow going to get people to join? I can't wrap my head around how anyone thinks that is a working business model.

What you are very likely to see is a short term increase of a few new members who are currently engaged with the forum who want to keep participating. This will last a short while, until forum activity inevitably declines, and many paying members will not renew their memberships as they feel they are getting less value out of it. Within a year the decline will be readily apparent to all, and within a few years the forum itself will be a shell of its former self. This is not my opinion, this has happened to many, many forums over the years. When the forum dwindles, club memberships will decline along with it. Where will the much-needed new members come from? People who google search something like "Cadillac forum" will find this place, encounter the paywall and will immediately look elsewhere. Again, anyone who has been around internet forums for many years will have seen this for themselves many times over. I stress, forumS, plural. If this is the only one you've ever participated on you might not be aware of how the rest of the internet works, especially for new generations of people who grew up with the internet. All of the most popular and successful platforms are free to use. In order to succeed with a paywall, you have to offer something that a LOT of people want that is not available anywhere else, and it takes years of getting those people on board first and capturing the audience, all the while maintaining consistent strong growth if you expect that model to flourish. We've seen that in recent years with the rise of alternative news sources and commentators, competing with the legacy media model that is in decline. It is the very same here. The traditional car club is a declining model hobby-wide. Everyone knows that. Yet you're relying on legacy ideas to try to turn the decline around, that you just have no basis for believing will work. It isn't working anywhere else, so you have to ask yourself why you think it will work here?

[MultipleCaddies]

You forget the most important point. Website hosting ,storage, and administration IS NOT FREE.

So should the dues of the CLC members go up to remove that barrier to you? If the dues go up too much the members will not pay and thus no forum. Man, you are such a short term thinker, not thinking beyond your immediate needs or wants.

You forget one thing, every resource is scare. Why? How do I know? You pay a price for it. Fortunately for you it has been free in the past but not for us members. A very selfish and narrow view of the big picture. All we can say is this change might work or might not. But if 10-20% of the non members decide to join I would say the change may  be a success.

The reality is that maintaining and operating a car club can be a very expensive operation. Booking venues and setting up shows have very large, very real costs to them. Organizing meetings and whatnot costs real money as well. No one is disputing those costs. But forum operation is quite different, and the two should not be intertwined. Hosting costs money, but not THAT much money. Hosting costs themselves are easily paid for with minimal advertising. As far as moderation, nearly all forums across the internet use a volunteer moderation model. Most or all forum moderators across the internet work on a volunteer basis. They do it because they love it and believe in it, because that's what is necessary to get the job done. Much the same as how I used to volunteer at air shows put on by the Collings foundation for almost ten years, until I moved out of state and no longer had reasonable access to their shows. I did it because I loved it and I wanted to do my part to help keep the shows going. Being around the planes and people who were most enthusiastic about them was payment enough. I have volunteered at some of the many car shows I've been to over the years. Many enthusiast groups and organizations depend on the volunteer model in order to succeed. If everyone needed to be paid a full time salary in order to participate, many/most of these events simply wouldn't exist. It's the exact same thing with all big forums that flourish.

So again, why can't this forum figure out how to keep the lights on without a paywall when thousands of others can? You're doing something wrong. And it seems most of the people involved simply aren't willing to admit it.

[Bryan J Moran]

So again, why can't this forum figure out how to keep the lights on without a paywall when thousands of others can? 

Because the club does not want to.  You are 100% the definition of a troll. You have 67 total posts of which at least half have been related to the 3-4 threads on the May 1 deadline. 

We don't know who you are, why you are on the forum, we know very little.  In fact, the CLC rule is that your title must be your name, or your name needs to be in your footer, neither of which you provide. Troll, meaning you are just here to stir the pot. 

We understand your position, and you may be right. However, it is going to take time to know one way or the other.  If you were a club officer, you would be tasked with trying to turn back the tide of declining membership. That is a responsibility.  It's that simple.  I am tired of hearing for the last 25 years that this group or that group needs to "appeal to the youth."  It did not work, this may work. 

Your 2 cents worth is noted.  Shut down the thread please!

[MultipleCaddies]

Because the club does not want to.  You are 100% the definition of a troll. You have 67 total posts of which at least half have been related to the 3-4 threads on the May 1 deadline. 

We don't know who you are, why you are on the forum, we know very little.  In fact, the CLC rule is that your title must be your name, or your name needs to be in your footer, neither of which you provide. Troll, meaning you are just here to stir the pot. 

We understand your position, and you may be right. However, it is going to take time to know one way or the other.  If you were a club officer, you would be tasked with trying to turn back the tide of declining membership. That is a responsibility.  It's that simple.  I am tired of hearing for the last 25 years that this group or that group needs to "appeal to the youth."  It did not work, this may work. 

Your 2 cents worth is noted.  Shut down the thread please!

It's always a shame when people resort to personal attacks when their argument is weak. Strong arguments on solid ground simply don't degrade to insults. Your childish response to someone questioning your authority says everything that needs to be said.

Edit: All you've done here is prove that you have no interest in debating on the merits, but merely attacking the messenger because you don't like the message and don't want to hear it. You have no counter-argument, just misdirection and insults. That's just not a good look. It's not going to save the forum either.

[Bryan J Moran]

Cmon moderators.  This person is a troll!  There is nothing constructive here. 

[MultipleCaddies]

Cmon moderators.  This person is a troll!  There is nothing constructive here. 

The irony here is truly astounding. Nothing says "I'm confident in my position and beliefs" like saying "I don't like what you have to say, so you MUST be shut down." Amazing.