It's NOT the Big 3's fault!!!

[Johnny]

I am not going to stay involved in this discussion.

Why?  Because you disagree with what is being posted here?

I can't understand how anyone that's a car enthusiast, and owns Cadillacs can rationalize that if GM, Ford, and Chrysler go out of business, it's not a big deal.  I think it's a big deal if even one of them goes down for good.

No one said its not a big deal.  I think it goes without saying that if they fail, it will be probably be the most devastating thing that has ever happened to American Business.

It's frigging December 7th, and I read in today's Sunday paper some real life memories from aging veterans that survived the bombing at Pearl Harbor.  I personally have met people with numbers tattooed on their arms by the Nazi's.

I think its safe to say, that most people that are in the car manufacturing business had nothing to do with the bombing of Pearl Harbor, or running Nazi death camps.  Today Vietnam is tourist attraction.  At what point do we put past enemies behind us and move on?

I am only 50, never served in the military, but I will never buy a German or a Japanese car. 

Uh......where was your Television or some of your other electronic equipment built?

And in 50 years, if the Iraqi's are building cars, would you buy one of them?

Would it interest you to know that some mid 70's Sevilles were built in Iran? A little-known sidebar to this success story began in 1977, when the Shah of Iran suggested that Sevilles be built in his country.  "The Shah wanted a more cost-effective luxury car for his generals, and we heard that he had 1,000 generals in his army. Complete cars were delivered CKD [completely knocked down] in wooden crates and reassembled in Iran. The assembly operation was owned by a friend of the Shah. We don't know how many got built or paid for, because the Shah was deposed soon afterward, and the operation closed. The CKD kits had a special engine, however, with no emissions or fuel-economy constraints to meet which gave it a much higher top speed."

Hundreds of thousands will lose their jobs, businesses will close, and we will all be hurt by it.

Will we really all be hurt?  How about if we do give them the money, and they still go belly up, which is real possibility?  Yes old jobs and businesses will close and new ones will open up.

Chrysler borrowed money before, developed the K car and the Mini Van, made millions, and paid back the money ahead of time.  I have faith that GM and Ford can and will do the same, if given the opportunity.

Care to share with us, what gives you the faith to believe they can do now what they have not been able to do in the last 30 years?  This isn't a hamburger joint, that can be made better by using a better brand of ketchup.

We can snipe at each other, and debate what we think we know, but none of us have the answers. 

True and neither does the big3, and they are the one that has to have the answers.

I know that we will all be better off if these businesses do not fail.

Ah so if they fail its Armageddon.

[Johnny]

I have been watching the hearings in their entirety, and not one of the CEO's state what they will do with the money.  All they are saying is basically without the money they will go under.  They are trying to hold the American taxpayers hostage by threatening us with jobs.

[76eldo]

Johnny,

Well you sucked me back in...

All I have to say is that you can quote and rebut all you want.  The general tone here is that they are going to fail, they did it to themselves, and the autoworkers will just get different jobs, no big deal.

It is a big deal, and you can dissect my posts, and come up with an alternative view, but I am saying that Americans need to start thinking about buying American cars.

I have all Japanese electronic goodies, that's all true, but is there a choice?  I am sure you will quote that and find some obscure TV or digital camera still made in the US, but by and large, all of the electronic devices we have to buy are imported.

I don't want to see that happen with cars.  What are we looking at here, no more new Cadillacs, no more Vettes, No more Shelby Mustangs?  The Challenger and new Camaro, forget it?  No more Ford pickup trucks?  No more Chrysler minivans?  I want to be able to have a choice, and buy an American car if and when I want to.

If I want someone to differ with everything I say, line by line, when my wife is out shopping, now I know where to come .

I think I will stick to car talk and leave the politics alone.

Brian

[Johnny]

Johnny,

Well you sucked me back in...

It's what I do    

All I have to say is that you can quote and rebut all you want.  The general tone here is that they are going to fail, they did it to themselves, and the autoworkers will just get different jobs, no big deal.

All true, except for the "no big deal" comment.  It is a big deal, and one that we will all have to deal with.

Here's a thought to ponder.  Did the big 3 just wake up recently in the last few weeks and say "OH gee if the government doesn't give me billions, we will have to go out of business and put hundreds of thousands of people on the street without jobs?  Couldn't they see this a long time ago?  Are they as clueless as all the people that took "creative financing " mortgages and then found themselves in foreclosure and on the street?

It is a big deal, and you can dissect my posts, and come up with an alternative view, but I am saying that Americans need to start thinking about buying American cars.

Little late for that, and as I have already posted in this reply, its what I have been preaching for many years.  Every time someone I know purchases an import, I remind them that they are committing financial suicide!  But did they listen?  But Noooooooooooooooooooo!

By the way it should be noted that I am a GM stock holder, and currently  my paper losses represent enough to buy a new Cadillac!

I have all Japanese electronic goodies, that's all true, but is there a choice?

Only with Korean products.

 

I am sure you will quote that and find some obscure TV or digital camera still made in the US, but by and large, all of the electronic devices we have to buy are imported.

If only I could.  Zenith the last American manufacturer of TV's left in the early 1990's.

I don't want to see that happen with cars.  What are we looking at here, no more new Cadillacs, no more Vettes, No more Shelby Mustangs?  The Challenger and new Camaro, forget it?  No more Ford pickup trucks?  No more Chrysler minivans?  I want to be able to have a choice, and buy an American car if and when I want to.

Believe me, when I tell you, I have the same feelings as you, but lets keep in mind, we looking at the situation as car enthusiasts, and like I have stated many times on this forum in the past, our hobby is a business, and as such, it will succeed or fail just like any other business.  The fact is that the big 3 does not sell enough product to keep themselves going.

If I want someone to differ with everything I say, line by line, when my wife is out shopping, now I know where to come .

I think I will stick to car talk and leave the politics alone.

Brian

Brian with all due respect, "leaving the politics alone" is part of the reason, of why the big 3 are in the situation they are.  In a way you are sort of contradicting yourself.  First you say it is a big deal, which I agree with, then you say you are going to leave the situation alone.  Is it not that big of a deal, that we should all get involved?  I have been doing my part by buying nothing but GM products since 1966, at the rate of at least one every 2 years, plus buying GM stock.

[wrefakis]

bottom line in a 17.6 million unit year gm lost billions,in 73 i sold new cars in an energy crunch,they were 228 long and weighed 5200 lbs,they called them fleetwoods,now they call them escalades, gm tried to market small cars in 60,71,80-81,they were all junk,and they learned nothing from the energy shock in 73,but chrysler will be fine,after all they are owned by a hedge fund,so paulson will take care of them,when you see the strings they put on these bridge loans,it will be obvious that they will now have the likes of barney frank $ co telling them what to do,there is simply no way on earth that gm can survive in a small-green car 12 million unit world!!

[tozerco]

I thought you might all be interested in this article written just before the "BigBang", especially as regards who makes what in the US and where it goes:

http://midwest.chicagofedblogs.org/archives/2008/07/auto_exportskli.html

John Tozer
#7946

[tozerco]

I think a big reason US makes don't sell in your country is that you drive on the wrong side of the road.

As you said, the population isn't that large. Cranking out cars with everything backwards and shipping them halfway around the world only to sell to a fraction of an already small market wouldn't make economic sense. The Japs already build cars with the parts in the wrong places and they're right next door so it makes lots of sense for them to enter the Australian market.

Whoa up there! Maybe the slightly arrogant tone of that post is one of the problems.

A short list of countries that drive on "the wrong side of the road":

- India
- Pakistan
- Japan
- South Africa
- Thailand
- Australia
- New Zealand

Total population - 1,555,523,519 (about 5 1/2 times the US)

Economic status of most of these countries - Growing Fast!

Ignore them at your peril! The Europeans (BMW, Mercedes, VW Peugeot, Renault, Ciroen, Saab, Volvo etc.) have all built RHD cars for these markets for years.

...and guess where many of those RHD Volkswagens are built that go to these countries? MEXICO!

Food for thought....

John Tozer
#7946

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

John, what's the tariff situation??? We, the US, always seems to get screwed when it comes to exporting. That's why very few American cars are in some countries. The same thing for you guys in Oz. You can't even bring in old American cars like 59 Cads without a large cost. And you guys cry a lot!  LOL.  What is your government trying to prove or is just $?   Bob

[Johnny]

The ONLY reason I am against giving them any money, is because I really don't think it's going to help them in the long run.  It might keep them afloat for about 6 months to a year, but they will only be back again asking for more.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

A short list of countries that drive on "the wrong side of the road":
- India - Pakistan - Japan - South Africa - Thailand - Australia - New Zealand
Total population - 1,555,523,519 (about 5 1/2 times the US)
Food for thought....   John Tozer #7946   

You forgot about England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, And I think Saudi Arabia might be RHD as well.

Bruce.

[tozerco]

John, what's the tariff situation??? We, the US, always seems to get screwed when it comes to exporting. That's why very few American cars are in some countries. The same thing for you guys in Oz. You can't even bring in old American cars like 59 Cads without a large cost. And you guys cry a lot!  LOL.  What is your government trying to prove or is just $?   Bob

No luck there Bob.

Australian import tariff on ALL foreign cars 10% with moves for it to be reduced to 5%. Tariff on imported 4 x 4 currently 5%. This is down from 57.5% in 1984.

Current import tariff INTO the US for foreign sourced Utes and Trucks - 25%!

Import tariff on anything into Australia over 30 years old (including '59 Cad) is Nil.

Our Government convinced us to sign a Free Trade Agreement with the US. They know we have become used to paying too much for cars for years.

John Tozer
#7946

[Otto Skorzeny]

Hi John and Bruce,

Don't take my statement the wrong way. I was just needling Bruce a little with the wrong side of the road crack. I often write with a little tongue in cheek... or would it be pen in cheek?

Anyway, I am aware of the countries that drive on the left. My point about Australia is still valid, though.

As for India, they may have a lot of people but it's only within the last 10 years that any meaningful number of them could afford to buy a car.

Japan still keeps out imported cars. We were screaming about this in the 80s but it never changed.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Hi John and Bruce,   
Don't take my statement the wrong way. I was just needling Bruce a little with the wrong side of the road crack. I often write with a little tongue in cheek... or would it be pen in cheek?   

That's okay Forrest.

We still drive on the Right, or the correct side of the car.

Bruce.

[Ohio57-62Sedan]

bottom line in a 17.6 million unit year gm lost billions,in 73 i sold new cars in an energy crunch,they were 228 long and weighed 5200 lbs,they called them fleetwoods,now they call them escalades, gm tried to market small cars in 60,71,80-81,they were all junk,and they learned nothing from the energy shock in 73,

  Hey now them's fighting word's there....    ....  I was born in late 73 and I have and always owned, and will always own GM car's
This whole topic just makes me sick!!!! and I have nothing more to add to it.

[Otto Skorzeny]

Sorry JPK.

res ipsa loquitur

[Johnny]

  Hey now them's fighting word's there....    ....  I was born in late 73 and I have and always owned, and will always own GM car's
This whole topic just makes me sick!!!! and I have nothing more to add to it.

......actually if they get the loan and still fail, it means that you and every other tax payer will ADD to your tax bill.

[Otto Skorzeny]

The whole thing stinks. Now they say there will be a "Car Czar" to oversee the automakers "restructuring". Gimme a freaking break! 

This is the same government that bankrupted Social Security! They couldn't restructure a lemonade stand!

Yet GM and Chrysler will likely enter into this Faustian pact and we'll end up with an American version of British Leyland. Cars designed by a committee that no one wants to buy. They'll be back at the taxpayer trough in 6 months.

If it's restructuring they want - and clearly need - there is already a system in place to do so that does not require a government overseer. It's called Chapter 11!

[Johnny]

The whole thing stinks. Now they say there will be a "Car Czar" to oversee the automakers "restructuring". Gimme a freaking break! 

This is the same government that bankrupted Social Security!

Hold on there!  Social Security is not bankrupt, and in fact there is a surplus.

[Ohio57-62Sedan]

......actually if they get the loan and still fail, it means that you and every other tax payer will ADD to your tax bill.

so if they don't get the loan...... we dont have to pay tax anymore?  We are going to get shafted no matter what happens.... I will tell you this .... It will be a cold day in hell before I own a car made in China.... 

Hey Johnny......  How many American car's do you have in your stable???    I have 14 General Motors cars....  and I will have number 15 when my new camero arrives.....already paid for in full.... and if by some chance Cadillac get's the chance to build the Sixteen.... why that would be nice to have a sixteen, as my sixteenth !!!!!!!!

[Johnny]

so if they don't get the loan...... we dont have to pay tax anymore?

Yes you will still have to pay taxes, but not as much, as we will save the billions that the big 3 are asking for.



 

Hey Johnny......  How many American car's do you have in your stable???    I have 14 General Motors cars....  and I will have number 15 when my new camero arrives.....already paid for in full.... and if by some chance Cadillac get's the chance to build the Sixteen.... why that would be nice to have a sixteen, as my sixteenth !!!!!!!!

You win, as I only have 3.  I rather have the capital in cash then cars.