Well it was strange. I had just put the car back together. I mean I just had the Generator rebuilt and the car was running consistently. That evening I took her out and ran her down Woodward Ave. Too see what she was made of. Ran good. Was in a horrible need of a Tune up though. So I had the parts and decided to tune the car up last weekend. That's when trouble struck. I replaced all the plugs and replaced the wires 1 by one. I then numbered them with tape. I was like a dumbass undoing the lead cable and had accidentally left the key in the ignition in the on position no less. :o Anyways, I tried gapping just like the manuel had said when I didn't realize the points were already gapped. Well I did what the Shop Manuel said. I Twisted till the car started misfiring and then I turned it 180 degree's in the opposite direction. The car just shut off and hasn't started since. I have tested the lead wire from the coil to the Points, ok. I checked the ground, ok. I checked all my lines except the yellow line that goes into the other end of the coil resistor. Which I bought a new coil resistor and it doesn't look like the one I took off the car. I gapped my points to .016. I did it correctly. I pulled a spark plug out of the block while still attached to the wire and shut off all the lights and cranked it. No spark. I am not taking it to a electrical guy. I'm going to get this. My cousin through this whole thing is trying to convince me of a petronix system. I want to make this system work before I move on to electronic distributor. I already took the engine to TDC and re arranged the wires so they were in order and set up everything. I know the resistor isn't the problem because we rigged that up to test it with a new coil to see if that was the issue. My cousin is starting to think it's the yellow wire or the red wire going to the resistor. Any suggestions? I'm sure I'm missing something simple. Both of us have never worked on a distributor like this before. He has 5.0 stang that is computer operated.
Thanks, ???
Do you have a volt meter? If so connect the meter between the point’s terminal on the coil and ground. With the points open you should have about 9 volts and zero volts with the points closed. If that test works and you still don’t have any spark then check the condenser (AKA capacitor) it is vital to generating the spark.
Also when you are checking for spark; be sure the threaded part of the spark plug is well grounded. That has always been a problem for me to get a good ground on a painted engine. And the spark plug wire tends to keep the plug off ground.
Let us know what you find.
Glen
Christopher,
The yellow wire at the resistor goes to the solenoid; the positive side wire (black) of the ignition coil is also splice at the same termination. The other side of the resistor there is a pink wire to ends at the ignition switch.
When you start cranking the solenoid places a direct 12V on the yellow wire, once the crank stops (engine running) the pink lead supplies the 12V through the resistor to the ignition coil reducing the voltage.
As Glen suggested using a voltmeter (or a test light) checking that voltage is present at coil positive side.
Good luck…!
OK, I've gone through the whole system. I 've checked all the wires. The Resistor was Zorched. So that has been replaced and secure connections have been made. The Red or pink wire which is hot when you turn the key at the ignition proved to be working and is hot. Then after we replaced the Resistor the Yellow wire had good current flowing through it. But during the whole process of trying to turn over the engine figuring out this issue the Starter went. It became so weak it couldn't turn over the engine once. I yanked the starter today and am going to have it rebuilt by a really good guy. Same guy that did my Generator. All the Lines are correct going to the distributor. I checked the gaps, everything is fine. Then I made sure that the lead wire and the condenser wire were both screwed in good and with the isolator in place there was no connection to the ground. I also checked the battery and it's putting out 13.75. The system is good. I think once the starter is put back in business I will be in good shape. For some reason I can't turn the distributor. That was one thing I noticed messing around today. I'm going to try the oil filter wrench and see if that works at all. This thing is in there good. I hope it's not one with the universe. How loose do you have to make that bolt? ANyways. Thanks for your responses both were read by me and my cousin today and helped us out as we troubleshot the ignition system. I'll keep you updated on what happens when I put the starter back in. See if this doesn't do the trick. The starter has been giving me problems since day one. 8)
I know you folks have 1956 cadillac's Could you check a bolt for me. I'm taking off the valve covers. On the drivers side there is a bracket that goes over the valve cover making it unable to come off unless it is removed. Well I'm having a problem with the bottom bolt that is down by the first spark plug. Does it loosen like all the rest of the bolts. I am having trouble with it because it is so rusted on. ??? I just wanted top know that I'm twisting it the right way. Righty tighty lefty loosy. I don't want to break off the head.
Chris,
That would be a head bolt which is torqued down. So leverage is the answer.
John W
Soak it in PB Blaster and keep trying with a 6 point socket. I would use the air wrench as a last resort. No need to break a head bolt.
Ok that's what I've been doing. I have been hitting it with blaster and using my forearm strength. Thanks for the suggestions. I'm impatient and this is holding me up. Thats why I wondered if I should use a air tool. Thanks, I'll try and have more patience with these head bolts. One more question. if your listening. My distributor bolt is loose but won't let me twist it right or left to time the engine. I was going to give it some taps with a rubber mallet and see if that would free it up in there but it is really frozen. I sprayed blaster around where it goes into the engine to see if that would help at all. I haven't driven the car 1,000 miles yet, I'm just getting to know her. Lots of issues.
Christopher,
That head bolt that holds the power steering pump bracket is a standard bolt thread pattern. I would second Forrest suggestion by using a 6pt short socket with a sturdy 3/8†breaker bar first. As a second option using an air impact wrench start at the lowest setting hopefully the tapping would help loosen the bolt before reaching the higher setting so you could go back to the breaker bar.
As for the distributor not turning left or right, the culprit could be a hardened “O†ring freezing the distributor from turning. More WD40, Silicon lube, or PB blaster to get lubrication into the “O†ring.
Good luck..!
Thanks Jose,
I'm going to give it a go this Friday night when I get a chance to work on it again.
Ok,
Once I get me Valve covers off, I'm beating them into perfect condition. They have a few dents from the previous owner. I am looking for the Cadillac blue to shoot the Vavle covers. What company makes it in a spray can and what is the paint code? Is it an Engine enamel so that it can take the heat?
Bill Hirsch. Order Cadillac Engine Blue
http://www.hirschauto.com/
It really is an excellent paint. Order 2 or 3 spray cans and maybe a quart for brushing. It's always good to have some extra laying around for touch-up!
Christopher,
Coopers also carries the same paint from Bill Hirsch, in case you’ll need other items to complete the job..! http://www.coopersvintage.com/
Good luck..!
I just ordered the paint, Decent price at Hirsch. While I'm getting schooled by the pro's here. Thanks Walter and Jose. I have to wash the bottom of the car before I put up the new Stainless Exhaust. Is there any product that you would advise picking up to take off all the soot and dirt and crap. The car had no exhaust pipe from the muffler back so it's al ittle nasty down there. Not terrible but when I was repairing the gas leak dirt was just falling down from where the gas filler tube comes down from the tail lamp.
Thanks
Oven cleaner and a pressure washer!
I have to ask: is the car undercoated or are the floors primer/paint?
Well I got the breaker bar out on Friday and yes! That head bolt popped right off. I love the way this car is put together so nicely. No one monched any of the bolts. Everything is factory on the car, it's coming off so smoothly. Anyways. I have the bracket off and moved the Power steering out of the way so I could get the head gasket off. Which I'm going to take some time this week and beat back into shape. Paint will be arriving on Wed. Oven Cleaner Walt? Really? OK, I was told to use Castrol Super Clean in the Purple bottle. I am borrowing my buddies pressure washer. I think it's going to be a messy job, but after all the gaskets are replaced and all the leaks are taken care of the car is going to look magnificent on the underside. Last I looked the wheel wells are painted and the floorpan is undercoated. Overall there is a tiny bit of surface rust but nothing that you would look twice at.
When you pressure-wash the engine bay, try and keep any of the splashing of excess water and the like from going onto the finished surfaces of the exterior paintwork.
Polished paint doesn't like heavy detergents and grease removers.
Bruce. >:D
Another suggestion… when you reassemble the engine use anti-seize on all threaded fasteners. It will make it easier to remove the bolts the next time.
Glen
One problem with using Anti-seize on threads like Head Bolts is that the loss of friction increases the amount of stretch on the bolt shaft when using the Torque Wrench to tighten them up.
Too much pressure in this area can destroy the integrity of the fastening, and goes against the way that the Engine Designers designed everything to work together in the clamping process.
Antiseize on things like Exhaust Manifold Bolts, Exhaust Flange Nuts, and other parts that are subject to evcessive heating and cooling, and corrosion is okay.
Bruce. >:D
I should have spent some time tonight trying to get the distributor to move. Is it a possablity that the o ring at the base has frozen in the block? I'm going to give it another shot tomorrow and see if that is it. I need to get it to move slightly. It doesn't want to budge at all. I also don't want to hurt the cast aluminum of the Distributor. OI! ANyways, I have my paint for the valve covers, I just ordered my tranny pan gasket. I'm nearing comletion on this car. I'm sure things will keep going wrong the more I keep driving it but right now my laundry list of things that need to be done is almost coming to a close. I think I have one more month of weekends to go.
I would not recommend using oven cleaner on the chassis of your car. First of all, it's
highly caustic and with it dripping down from the car you risk being severly burned -- and
all the more so when you go to pressure wash it off. This stuff is dangerous and is
a pH (level of caustic measure) similar to lye. Also, if you get any on a painted surface
where you don't want it -- it will ruin your paint.
For the undercoating, use a heat gun and a selection of scrapers (old putty knive, etc) to
get most of the crud off. Then follow up with a safe type of cleaner (as you mentioned)
to remove the rest. If you have to, use some mineral spirits to get it squeaky clean then
use a water based cleaner / detergent.
Mike
Bruce is right. Don't use anti-seize thread stuff on head bolts or any other fastener in which the torque specs are critical.
That’s a new one on me guys. Working on submarines for many years we always used anti-seize. I’ve had to measure the running torque (how much torque it takes to turn the bolt in the hole) and add that to required torque to get the final reading I need to go to on the wrench, but I’ve never heard of the use of anti-seize resulting on over torque of bolts. Do you have any source for that information?
Glen
G'day Glen,
In a Saline world as in Submarines and other Maritime areas, Anti-seize would be the norm, as you can only paint things so much. Battleship Grey sure builds up when used to excess.
In the automotive world, where maintenance isn't performed as often as it should be, one needs to ensure that bolts and nuts are tightened correctly.
When installing Head Bolts, you would be surprised just how much more a Head Bolt can be turned by simply oiling the underside on head surface of the bolt where it turns on the head. Using hardened washers under the head of the bolt further allows the bolt to be tightened than if it was being tightened against the plain Cast Iron of the Head.
Removing basic friction from the scenario, allows a further ability to let the bolt turn and stretch before it reaches breaking or failure point without the operator realising it.
These days of Head Bolt Tightening using a mixture of Low Torque, then degree-rotation to arrive at the designed "Stretch" is far superior to the old method of simply turning till a high torque reading is obtained as these "Stretch Bolts" are a one use fastening, and not a multiple use bolt.
With the old bolts, one isn't really sure when they should be replaced, or when the threads in the Block will give way, and therefore require Helicoils to restore the Block to a useful item. Old bolts were really an overkill as I think the Designers relied on Gasket Crush instead of Bolt Stretch to secure complete sealing.
Bruce. >:D
PS. The only time I would use Anti-seize on a Head Bolt or Stud would be when doing a Head Job on a Jaguar, and only then, it would be on the Shank to stop, or limit the Heads corroding itself to the Studs. Many times, one removes the nuts from a 6 cyl Jag Engine, and still not be able to remove the Head.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I talked with fellow car owners at work and they told me that the Oven Cleaner was a bad idea. Not including the burn if it gets on your skin. I appreciate the thought Glen. Submarine Engines, That sounds pretty awesome! Definitely a different animal though. I never really thought Anti seize would make that big of a difference but I guess it does. I guess I won't be using it. Although I know a lot of others that swear by anti seize as well. Hey Bruce, I lived in Melbourne for 6 months last year. I worked for Holden right there in Fishermans bend. Beautiful country and culture mate. I really dig it and would love to return again some day. Thanks for all the help. I think I'm on the right track and will have her cleaned up and running in the next week. I feel bad because the weather is nice and the new exhaust has just arrived. I'm eager to get her running. ;D
Quote from: Christopher Petti on May 05, 2009, 10:29:50 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions. I talked with fellow car owners at work and they told me that the Oven Cleaner was a bad idea. Not including the burn if it gets on your skin. I appreciate the thought Glen. Submarine Engines, That sounds pretty awesome! Definitely a different animal though. I never really thought Anti seize would make that big of a difference but I guess it does. I guess I won't be using it. Although I know a lot of others that swear by anti seize as well. Hey Bruce, I lived in Melbourne for 6 months last year. I worked for Holden right there in Fishermans bend. Beautiful country and culture mate. I really dig it and would love to return again some day. Thanks for all the help. I think I'm on the right track and will have her cleaned up and running in the next week. I feel bad because the weather is nice and the new exhaust has just arrived. I'm eager to get her running. ;D
Chris,if I knew you where in Melbourne,I would have taken you for a cruise in my 59 eldo.Where were you staying??I used to work at Fishermans bend about 20 years ago just near the Westgate Bridge.
My post was a little vague. I do know that lubricant on the threads have an effect. What I am curious about is the significance.
I Googled the subject and the results are here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=+torque+anti+seize&btnG=Search
The subject seems to be a little controversial.
I was surprised that the clamping force may be increased by as much as 20% between dry and wet torque. But what does the mean in bolt stretch and thread deformation in the block? I am also curious about what that means in torque values. For example if you torque a 3/8ths bolt to 60 ft-lb dry, what would you need to torque the same bolt to (still dry) to get the bolt stretch you would have gotten if the bolt was wet? Is it significant difference in torque values?
The next question is how accurate is your torque wrench? Are the inaccuracies of your torque wrench in the same range as the difference in the torque differences between wet and dry torque values? In the shipyard we had torque wrenches with calibration traceable to the National Institute of Standards and Technology formally the National Bureau of Standards. How accurate is that wrench from China?
I do use anti-seize on all the threaded fasteners on my cars and ball joints too. I prefer that to trying to remove a broken bolt. I’ve never had any problems. Over 300,000 miles on the 68-ELDO and I do all my own work.
I guess this is something everyone has to make their own mind up on.
It’s interesting I get into this discussion now. I just had to remove a battery charging generator from a locomotive. The mounting bolts are ¾ inch fine thread. It took a 4 foot breaker bar with me putting my knee on the end to break the bolts loose. The bolts are now stretched and do not turn easily in the hole. Running torque to remove them was about 15 ft-lb after breaking them loose. Hopefully the bolt holes in the block are repairable.
Glen
Quote from: Glen on May 06, 2009, 04:34:15 AM
... if you torque a 3/8ths bolt to 60 ft-lb dry, what would you need to torque the same bolt to (still dry) to get the bolt stretch you would have gotten if the bolt was wet? Is it significant difference in torque values?
The trouble with Torquing a bolt dry is that excess friction is a detriment to the ability of the thread to turn in a spiral moment, and the head to turn rotationally. Add a lubricant, and apply the same torque, and the bolt would stretch a lot more, but it might be impossible to get the dry bolt to the same stretch without it breaking, or stripping the thread.
QuoteThe next question is how accurate is your torque wrench? Are the inaccuracies of your torque wrench in the same range as the difference in the torque differences between wet and dry torque values? In the shipyard we had torque wrenches with calibration traceable to the National Institute of Standards and Technology formally the National Bureau of Standards. How accurate is that wrench from China?
Surpisingly enough, I have tested Chinese, and Taiwanese Torque Wrenches, and they are the same standard as as my good Aussie Warren and Brown Wrench.
QuoteIt’s interesting I get into this discussion now. I just had to remove a battery charging generator from a locomotive. The mounting bolts are ¾ inch fine thread. It took a 4 foot breaker bar with me putting my knee on the end to break the bolts loose. The bolts are now stretched and do not turn easily in the hole. Running torque to remove them was about 15 ft-lb after breaking them loose. Hopefully the bolt holes in the block are repairable.
Doesn't sound good at all.
Bruce. >:D
I stayed at the Short Stay Apartments at 186 City Rd. In Southbank. I was right down the street from the BMW dealership, right behind the casino. I had such a ball drinking all the bitter. Your 59 looks killer mate. I loved the passion for v8's that Aussies have. Aussie's are true American car lovers. I went to Castle Main for the anniversary of the 32 Ford. There was a ton of nice cars. I have a lot of pics and footage from my visit. I wish I would have know you at the time of my visit. I didn't have a Cadillac at that time but next time definitely. Hope all is well down under. :D
Ok, I'm now scratching my head once again. I have a brand new rebuilt starter, All my currant is running and yet I still get no spark. I even replaced the coil. I have to go over it again today. I can not figure out why I have no spark. My resistor is new and hooked up very well. All the connections are good on the points. I can't figure it out. Everything is new. Wires, cap, rotor. I am puzzled. I know it's something stupid. A connection. I'm going to go check again and see if I can't figure it out. Any suggestions? I feel like I have gone over everything. I feel like somewhere in the distributor it's losing the connection.
Checked that ignition switch yet?
Christopher,
Since you have already verify the proper 12V positive voltage at the coil, the only item left as you mention would be the distributor.
If the distributor is at fault, make sure the point, condenser is properly grounded. There is a small wire from the breaker plate that extends ground from the distributor casing, this could be open.
Good luck..!
I had the same problem when I rebuilt my first 1962 Cadillac 390 engine. Got ready to fire it up for the first time, had gas, fuel, fire at the points and coil, but none to the plugs. I tried for 12 hours to get that engine running and not even a kick. Double checked the firing order, the plug wires, plug gap, still no spark. Had new coil, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, everything.
The problem was, I never worked on a points-style ignition before.
My wife's 80 year old grandfather came out, pulled off the cap, looked at the points, futzed with them a bit, put the cap back on, and said now try it. 1/2 turn and the thing was purring like a kitten.
I made the newbie mistake of adjusting my points while the rubber block was on the flat part of the distributor cam, not the high part. The points were open all the time. I had .016" when they were supposed to be CLOSED!
It may sound dumb, but double check it.
going back to a previous post...will it crank? i had the ign terminal on my prev 56 ign switch to go bad....car wouldnt hit a lick. just wouldnt start one day. my current 56 accessories died out of the blue that turned out to be a faulty acc terminal on the ign switch....took a good switch out of my 55 and had lock tumbler changed and all is well...if its not cranking id def check the switch.
jeff
It has been a long timr, but if I remeber it, the yellow wire is the one you should be considered about and it goes on the top terminal of the solenoid.
This is the wire to the resistor.
Good luck.
John W
Quote from: Geoff Newcombe #4719 on May 10, 2009, 11:17:27 AM
Checked that ignition switch yet?
Ignition switch? I'll look in the manual to see what you are referring to.
Quote from: John Washburn CLC 1067 on May 10, 2009, 06:35:11 PM
It has been a long timr, but if I remeber it, the yellow wire is the one you should be considered about and it goes on the top terminal of the solenoid.
This is the wire to the resistor.
Good luck.
John W
John,
That is the wire that has been puzzling me. When I recieved the car this wire wasn't connected to anything on the solenoid. It was dangling and the brass fitting that was attached to it was still connected to the bottom terminal on the solenoid. The connection closest to the top of the car was the blue wire. I'm going to read the manual tonight and see if I can find a acurate diagram. Schematic.
Quote from: jeff1956 on May 10, 2009, 06:07:54 PM
going back to a previous post...will it crank? i had the ign terminal on my prev 56 ign switch to go bad....car wouldnt hit a lick. just wouldnt start one day. my current 56 accessories died out of the blue that turned out to be a faulty acc terminal on the ign switch....took a good switch out of my 55 and had lock tumbler changed and all is well...if its not cranking id def check the switch.
jeff
Cranking? The starter is working and the engine is turning. There is no spark. I'm going to read up and figure out on the solenoid where the yellow wire should be, Blue wire. The Two reds I understand but the bLue and yellow I'm a little unsure of at this moment. Where is the ignition switch?
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on May 10, 2009, 05:20:04 PM
I had the same problem when I rebuilt my first 1962 Cadillac 390 engine. Got ready to fire it up for the first time, had gas, fuel, fire at the points and coil, but none to the plugs. I tried for 12 hours to get that engine running and not even a kick. Double checked the firing order, the plug wires, plug gap, still no spark. Had new coil, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, everything.
The problem was, I never worked on a points-style ignition before.
My wife's 80 year old grandfather came out, pulled off the cap, looked at the points, futzed with them a bit, put the cap back on, and said now try it. 1/2 turn and the thing was purring like a kitten.
I made the newbie mistake of adjusting my points while the rubber block was on the flat part of the distributor cam, not the high part. The points were open all the time. I had .016" when they were supposed to be CLOSED!
It may sound dumb, but double check it.
Dan I have adjusted the points or gapped them like five times now. I understand what you were doing and I get it. I gapped them while the nylon was on the lobe of the cam. The high spot. I have been playing with the gapping this evening because I'm running out of ideas. I don't know why I'm getting no spark. I also checked the coil wire and when I detached it from the cap and grounded it at on the top of the block there was no spark or anything when I cranked the engine with one of my buddies. I'm drawing a blank.
Quote from: Jose Gomez CLC #23082 on May 10, 2009, 12:28:14 PM
Christopher,
Since you have already verify the proper 12V positive voltage at the coil, the only item left as you mention would be the distributor.
If the distributor is at fault, make sure the point, condenser is properly grounded. There is a small wire from the breaker plate that extends ground from the distributor casing, this could be open.
Good luck..!
I'll check it Jose. I don't think that ground has ever been removed and I think it's in good shape.You are talking about the short one correct?
Quote from: Geoff Newcombe #4719 on May 10, 2009, 11:17:27 AM
Checked that ignition switch yet?
Geoff, where is the Ignition switch?
Quote from: ottoskorzeny on May 10, 2009, 10:39:23 PM
You're joking, right?
I've been over the whole ignition system, What are you referring to?
Quote from: ottoskorzeny on May 10, 2009, 10:39:23 PM
You're joking, right?
Are you refering to the ignition? As in put the key in and turn it to the right? If that's what you are referring to. Yes that works.
Does the car turn over when you turn the key or do just the instrument panel lights illuminate?
Jeff
Quote from: Christopher Petti on May 10, 2009, 10:46:38 PM
Are you refering to the ignition? As in put the key in and turn it to the right? If that's what you are referring to. Yes that works.
That is the ignition switch.
How do you know it's working properly? Maybe it's only sending juice to the starter.
Quote from: ottoskorzeny on May 11, 2009, 06:08:33 AM
That is the ignition switch.
How do you know it's working properly? Maybe it's only sending juice to the starter.
The engine turns and I checked for Volts at the green wire that comes off the ballaster resistor and attaches to the posotive side of the coil. I'm going to go over all the wires again and make sure all the connections are the right connections. I think I'm going to start at the Ignition switch and test all over again. I'm even going to dry out my piston chambers just in case the plugs are wet. I'm running out of options.
I've gone as far as running a wire from the positive terminal of the battery to the positive terminal of the coil when I bought a car that the owners couldn't find the key for so I could get an idea of the running condition. Then I just jumped the solenoid terminals on the starter to crank it. Since your ignition switch runs the starter, you're already a bit ahead of the game.
Maybe try that. Also, after lots of trying and ending up badly flooding the engine, I've dried my spark plugs with a propane torch and stuck the end of it into the cylinder holes to dry them out just before adding a touch of oil to the cylinder boost compression. Severe flooding can result in washing the cylinders where you'll lose valuable compression. I find drying the plugs with compressed air doesn't work that well for me. If you also have a kitchen stove with the coil element burners (not the ceramic cooktop style), I find you can do a good job drying the plugs by setting the electrode part in between the coils, turning it to high, and leaving them there for about 10 minutes. That's an old trick my dad used to use in winter to get the tractor or plow truck going when it was very cold and they wouldn't start and ended up flooding them. For some reason, hot plugs did the trick.
Just remember though, before you stick the tip of the torch in the cylinder, make sure it's either on the compression or power stroke. If it's in the intake stroke, you could send fire back up through the intake and into the carb (not good) since your intake valve is open.
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on May 11, 2009, 08:56:14 AM
I've gone as far as running a wire from the positive terminal of the battery to the positive terminal of the coil when I bought a car that the owners couldn't find the key for so I could get an idea of the running condition. Then I just jumped the solenoid terminals on the starter to crank it. Since your ignition switch runs the starter, you're already a bit ahead of the game.
Maybe try that. Also, after lots of trying and ending up badly flooding the engine, I've dried my spark plugs with a propane torch and stuck the end of it into the cylinder holes to dry them out just before adding a touch of oil to the cylinder boost compression. Severe flooding can result in washing the cylinders where you'll lose valuable compression. I find drying the plugs with compressed air doesn't work that well for me. If you also have a kitchen stove with the coil element burners (not the ceramic cooktop style), I find you can do a good job drying the plugs by setting the electrode part in between the coils, turning it to high, and leaving them there for about 10 minutes. That's an old trick my dad used to use in winter to get the tractor or plow truck going when it was very cold and they wouldn't start and ended up flooding them. For some reason, hot plugs did the trick.
Just remember though, before you stick the tip of the torch in the cylinder, make sure it's either on the compression or power stroke. If it's in the intake stroke, you could send fire back up through the intake and into the carb (not good) since your intake valve is open.
Dan, I'm just going to take the plugs out and let them sit for about 12 hours out of the chamber and see if I can dry it out that way. Just in case thats a factor. I don't think it is but It's worth a try. I think the biggest issue is that I'm not getting a spark when I put the end of the coil wire to the block and I'm not getting a spark.
Just for me, I would never put the tip of a lighted propane torch into an engine's spark plug hole. Especially an engine thought or known to be flooded! No disrespect to anyone but folks did lots of very dangerous things back in the day and some paid the price.
I have had ignition switches fail in different ways, one failure example is that the switch will crank the engine (turn it over) and the engine will start but as soon as the key is allowed to return to the normal "on" position the engine will quit. Those contacts in the switch get dirty or just plain worn out. I have also seen a piece of a worn switch contact come loose and touch another one which (in this case) would make the starter engage as soon as the key was turned to the "on" position. Point is, make sure you are getting juice to the coil both in the START and the RUN (or ON) positions.
Quote from: Geoff Newcombe #4719 on May 11, 2009, 09:16:36 AM
Just for me, I would never put the tip of a lighted propane torch into an engine's spark plug hole. Especially an engine thought or known to be flooded! No disrespect to anyone but folks did lots of very dangerous things back in the day and some paid the price.
I have had ignition switches fail in different ways, one failure example is that the switch will crank the engine (turn it over) and the engine will start but as soon as the key is allowed to return to the normal "on" position the engine will quit. Those contacts in the switch get dirty or just plain worn out. I have also seen a piece of a worn switch contact come loose and touch another one which (in this case) would make the starter engage as soon as the key was turned to the "on" position. Point is, make sure you are getting juice to the coil both in the START and the RUN (or ON) positions.
That could be a posability, I'll think about that when I'm testing again tomorrow. Couldn't I just check the green wire for volts while someone cranks the engine? I think we tried that but I'll put it in the mix with all the other tests that I'm going to run. Somone told me the first 1000 miles are hell. They weren't kidding. Seems like when you go to fix one thing, you discover 5 other things are bad. It's fun and challenging. But it's starting to drive me nuts.
Here's a systematic troubleshooting approach I found that may help:
Step by Step Diagnosis (trouble shooting):
Spark voltages are normally 5,000 volts to 15,000 volts and can be 40,000 volts.
Before beginning, make sure the coil wire and spark plug wires are dry and in good condition.
1) Disconnect both sides of the coil (+) and (-)
2) Check primary resistance of the coil from the (+) to the (-). Resistance should fit the following table
a) 1.5 ohms +/- 6 volt or 12 volt external resistor
b) 3.0 ohms +/- 12 volt internal resistor
c) 6.0 ohms +/- 24 volt
3) If the primary resistance checks NOT OK replace coil. If it checks OK continue to step 4
4) Check secondary resistance of the coil from the (-) to the high voltage connection. Resistance should fit the following table
a) 8,000 to 11,000 ohms +/- 6 volt or 12 volt external resistor
b) 8,000 to 11,000 ohms +/- 12 volt internal resistor
c) 8,000 to 11,000 ohms +/- 24 volt
5) If the secondary resistance checks NOT OK replace coil. If it checks OK continue to step 6
6) Connect a jumper form the (+) side of the coil to the (+) side of the battery.
7) Connect a jumper from the (-) side of the coil and leave it hang in air.
8) Disconnect the coil wire from the distributor
9) Holding the coil wire RUBBER INSULATION. Hold the metal end close to the engine (1/8†to 3/8â€)
10) Ground the wire from the (-) side of the coil (step #7) and un-ground it.
a) If no spark occurred, recheck for proper application of #6 through #10
i) If still no spark replace the coil wire with a known good coil wire and continue with #10
ii) You MUST have spark in this step before continuing to next step.
If all else fails replace the coil with a known good coil. Coils have been known to pass the resistance check but break down under load
b) When spark occurs then proceed to next step.
11) Connect the normal wire from the vehicle to the (+) coil terminal and turn ignition ON.
12) Check voltage at coil (+) terminal.
a) No battery voltage. Repair vehicle wiring.
b) Normal battery voltage? Continue
13) Perform #7 through #10
a) If no spark occurred, recheck for proper application of #7 through #10
b) When spark occurs then proceed to next step.
14) Connect the (-) side of the coil.
15) Holding the coil wire RUBBER INSULATION. Hold the metal end close to the engine (1/8†to 3/8â€)
16) Have assistant run starter motor (Turn key, press button, step on starter, etc)
a) When spark occurs then proceed with #17
b) If no spark occurs then proceed to POINTS NOT FIRING COIL
17) Plug coil wire back in distributor.
18) Remove a spark plug wire from a spark plug.
19) Connect the spark plug wire to a spare spark plug with the gap set to at least 0.035â€. (1/8†to ¼†is better)
20) Position the spark plug so the threads are touching the cylinder head and the gap is visible.
21) Have assistant run starter motor (Turn key, press button, step on starter, etc)
a) When spark occurs then proceed with #22
b) If no spark occurs then proceed to NO SPARK TO SPARK PLUGS
22) Repeat #18 through #21 for each spark plug wire
a) When spark occurs at each spark plug then proceed
b) If no spark occurs then proceed to NO SPARK TO SPARK PLUGS
23) Remove spark plugs
24) Clean and gap them to 0.035â€
25) You now should have spark at all plugs.
POINTS NOT FIRING COIL
1) Remove distributor cap
2) Insert a piece of paper between the contact points
3) Check voltage at the movable arm of the points
a) No battery voltage. Repair wiring from coil to points
b) Normal battery voltage? Continue
4) Turn ignition switch off
5) Rotate the engine such that the movable arm of the points rests on the top of the distributor lobe
6) Set the point gap to 0.020â€
7) Holding the coil wire RUBBER INSULATION. Hold the metal end close to the engine (1/8†to 1/4â€)
8) Have assistant run starter motor (Turn key, press button, step on starter, etc)
a) When spark occurs then proceed with #8
b) If no spark occurs
i) File points to remove pitting â€" repeat #4 - #7
ii) Replace condenser â€" repeat #4 - #7
9) Replace Rotor and cap continue with Step #17 above
NO SPARK TO SPARK PLUGS
If there is spark from the coil wire to the distributor and not to the spark plugs the problem is
Inside the distributor
Cap
Rotor
Spark plug wires
Inside the distributor
1) Check distributor cap for cracks and carbon tracks
a) If cracks or carbon tracks â€" Replace distributor cap
2) Check the rotor for carbon tracks
a) If carbon tracks â€" Replace rotor
Spark plug wires
Replace with known good spark plug wires
Return to Step #21 above
back to top
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oddities - Weird thing I have found:
Wire terminal crimped to insulation - not the conductor.
Wire from distributor coil connection to points grounded / or broken.
Bolt where coil wire connects to the distributor grounded to coil.
Resistance from distributor body to block is not ZERO.
back to top
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Things to watch-out for:
Spark voltages are normally 5,000 volts to 15,000 volts and can be 40,000 volts.
Before beginning, make sure the coil wire and spark plug wires are dry and in good condition.
If the points are pitted in a short time, the coil may be the wrong voltage for the application and / or condenser may be defective.
Thanks Dan! I'm gonna print this out and compare it to the test I'm going to run. Looks like it makes a lot of sense. I'm at work so I can't go over the whole document right now and figure out what on here I didn't do but I will later. :)
No problem. If I lived nearby, I'd be glad to help.
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on May 11, 2009, 09:51:14 AM
No problem. If I lived nearby, I'd be glad to help.
Thanks, I wish I had more experienced people to give me a hand. I'm learning a ton so it's not so bad. I am understanding my car more and more.
Yes, stuff like this is fun. Often turns out to be something really odd and off the wall.
Quote from: Geoff Newcombe #4719 on May 11, 2009, 10:05:21 AM
Yes, stuff like this is fun. Often turns out to be something really odd and off the wall.
I'm looking foreward to discovering that odd off the wall thing because I love hearing that 365 run. Sounds Like a lullabye.
Good luck, keep us posted. Whatever you do, if you follow what I posted, go through, in order, and don't try anything beyond.
Remember, a multi-meter can be your best friend. If you don't have one, get one. There are general electronics ones and automotive ones with tach and dwell features. Get an automotive one. I've used the tach and dwell many times to adjust points to the proper dwell angle and the tach function when setting timing.
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on May 11, 2009, 11:56:24 AM
Good luck, keep us posted. Whatever you do, if you follow what I posted, go through, in order, and don't try anything beyond.
Remember, a multi-meter can be your best friend. If you don't have one, get one. There are general electronics ones and automotive ones with tach and dwell features. Get an automotive one. I've used the tach and dwell many times to adjust points to the proper dwell angle and the tach function when setting timing.
Thanks Dan, You have been very informative. I'm going to give it a go tomorrow after work. I just took out the spark plugs at lunch today so that if there is any gasoline in the piston chambers it can dry out. Keep your fingers crossed. ;D
While I'm thinking of it, make sure to check the ground straps between the cylinder heads and the body. There should be one for each head. There is also one from the body to the frame. Also, check your negative ground cable where it bolts on at the frame. May not hurt to clean those connections up while you're at it.
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on May 11, 2009, 03:31:55 PM
While I'm thinking of it, make sure to check the ground straps between the cylinder heads and the body. There should be one for each head. There is also one from the body to the frame. Also, check your negative ground cable where it bolts on at the frame. May not hurt to clean those connections up while you're at it.
Speaking of the ground straps, What are they good for? I have already cleaned up the connections between the battery, starter and the frame. the ground connection is clean. I don't know what those have to do with anything. I need another one for the passenger side though. I only have one on the driver side valve cover.
Besides grounding, they also suppress help supress ignition interference with your radio. That is also why you have condensers on the coil, generator, and voltage regulator (all to reduce radio interference).
Is she running?
Dan,
You are the man. That check list you gave me is brilliant. I have narrowed it down to the wires. I have to get a good set of copper spark plug wires. I had a set that didn't fit but supposedly were custom made for my car. I sent them back because they were absolute crap. They were tight over the manifold and valve covers, get that crap out of here! I ran up to Auto zone and grabbed a set to finish off the Tune up. Well wouldn't you know the Autolites aren't made of all copper. They are a mixture of copper and carbon. So I was going throught the coil checks with the old distributor wires and the new ones. I received spark from the old ones but not the new ones. The wires on this car were old, maybe thirty years old. I ordered a new set from Kanter this morning. I think they will send me the correct wires for this car. Yes Dan I got spark but didn't get her running completely. I will get the spark plugs going once I get a good set of wires. I actually gave that checklist to a buddy of mine because he loved how well it chased down the problem and found the source. I'll let you know when I get her running. :). I can't wait. All tuned up and ready for summer. It's going to be like a dream come true.
Chris,
Wander down to your local NAPA deler and ask for some nice wires, metallic, for you speed boat or off road vehicle, these are still all metal. They are not pre made so you will have to at cut to lenght and at the ends - and they are blue. Bot they work nicely and are a lot less than what the restoration folks want.
Now the issue, the resistor wires and plugs should work well on the 56, so something else is wrong. Make sure you have the correct plugs.
Quote from: John Washburn CLC 1067 on May 13, 2009, 11:02:10 PM
Chris,
Wander down to your local NAPA deler and ask for some nice wires, metallic, for you speed boat or off road vehicle, these are still all metal. They are not pre made so you will have to at cut to lenght and at the ends - and they are blue. Bot they work nicely and are a lot less than what the restoration folks want.
Now the issue, the resistor wires and plugs should work well on the 56, so something else is wrong. Make sure you have the correct plugs.
John,
Ok, You think the Autolites should work? I checked everything. My father still thinks my problem rests in my points. I am also going to change out the distributor coil lead. The little wire that goes from the negative terminal on the coil to the points. I have spark from the coil using the old coil wires. I didn't get a ton of spark but I got a few sparks to jump from the coil wire to the block when I grounded it with the car in the on position. I will check my plugs again but I picked up the champions that were the correct plugs for the car. Gapped them and they are all good. I'll check again. I can't believe I'm gapping my points wrong. It's so simple a thing to do.
Keep us posted on the progress. Nice to see someone breathing new life into an old beauty.
i remember you saying you had replaced the coil...but when i had this issue w my 56...i had just ran it about an hour prior....went to leave for a friday night cruise and she wouldnt hit a lick...i had just tuned her up so i knew that was good...only thing wasnt replaced was the coil. my coil was the original remy coil and after i changed it out for a new aftermarket one....my issue was solved. didnt make it to the cruise that night though. could be it has fire just not enough to get the old gal running. just sharing a similar experience.
jeff
Had the same problem with a 54 Ford tractor. Tuned it up and changed the coil just as a lick of preventive maintenance, ran fine for a day or two, then died. Brought the new coil and the original coil to get it tested. Turned out the original coil made a stronger spark than the new one only about 5 hours of run time old. Put back the original coil, and, voila.
Just because it's new doesn't mean it's good.
The plugs I purchased were Champion RJ18YC. As far as I know these plugs should work.
That's the one, gapped to .035.
Well,
It is close the original plugs were J-18Y non resistor. The new ones listed are resistor plugs, non porcelinized - so if the engine is flooded plugs generally are toast. You can not successfully blast these new plugs to clean them.
The joy of new products.
John W
ive always used the ac delcos in both 56s and have never had an issue...tho when i purchased the 60s..it did have champions....champion better than ac for these old gals?
jeff
Also....editing here....I've ran the autolite professional plug wires on my 56's as well and they both ran like sewing machines.....so I don't think those wires would be your issue, unless you got a bad set of them. I've also used the xact set from advance before as well, and they've worked excellent, however, advance no longer carries xact and is only offering the autolite professionals for our cars.
Jeff
Personally, I have never had any issues using AC Delco plugs in any of my cars, GM's and Chryslers.
But a couple times I used Champions in the 80's in my Buick's and was very disappointed.
Stick with AC's if you can.
I ran Bosch platinums in my 62 Coupe for the three years I had it along with it, believe it or not, Accel wires, stock coil, points, etc. That thing never skipped a beat and at idle was as smooth as silk. Idled smoother than my Grand Marquis.
Platinums for me also in my '60, my '66, and my '71 when I had them.
Quick question, I need the exaust tips that go in the bumper on the 56. What company has OEM equipment? I found a person or company on Ebay that sells them for $400.00 a pair. Is that the best I'm going to do? What is the closest to OEM looking?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=260407594554
Christopher,
There are others that have them big $$$$..!
http://www.mcveys.com/ $498
http://www.allcads.com/ $750
There is also this seller in eBay (not sure but they looked cheap to me) and the advertisement do not shows the inner inserts.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cadillac-1956-rear-bumper-exhaust-extensions_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a1Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a25QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem3a4e994dc0QQitemZ250426772928QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
There is also a third eBay seller that I’ve seen, he places the listing for a set once in a while.
If you're looking at exhaust parts, does that mean she's running?
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on May 19, 2009, 04:44:42 PM
If you're looking at exhaust parts, does that mean she's running?
Haven't had the time to run down to the garage and work on it so sorry Dan It's not running yet. If my parts get here before Friday I'll get it together this week. I have a whole exhaust ready to go up under the car. I figured i should just get the tips and do it once rather than having the exhaust adjusted later.
Just me getting in touch with the people who have been before where I am at right now asking a question. Those tips aren't cheap, I just wanted to know if anyone with a 56 knew where the best reproductions were going to come from. I don't want to pay for something that looks like the original. I want the Mccoy, just wondering how much I should be looking foreward to paying as well. Thanks Jose on your feedback about where to get the tips.
Christopher,
Don't waste time jerking around with ebay, Call McVey's.
I was one of the first customers to purchase their '56 exhaust port assemblies when they had them made back in 2002. They are perfect, conain all the bezels, pipes, etc. and are brand new. I use my car for regular transportation and my exhaust ports still look like new with no rust, etc.
They are cheaper now than they were when they first came out. McVey's occasionally sells them on ebay and you might be able to get them for a little less than ordering from the catalog.
In any event, don't bother with some of those home made ports I've seen on ebay. They cost as much as McVey's and don't look as good.
If you need the actual bumper ends, you'll have to find decent ones that someone is parting out or bite the bullet and call "Big Ed". I'd only do that as a last resort, however.
Chris,
Where the "s" pipe connects to the exhaust pipe, I used a short length of radiator hose of the proper diameter to slip over the pipe and keep it from vibrating against the bracket, etc.. It's unseen and works great. Originally there was a little rubber gasket like piece that the pipe slipped through to act flex to keep the pipes from rattling, etc.
You'll understand what I'm talking about when you see all the pieces laid out.
Otto,
Thanks for that tip, And I'll give MCveys a call in a few weeks. By chance did you see the auction from Ebay for the tips? Take a look and tell me if that's a good part. I called the people on the ad and they told me that they supply a lot of distrubutors with tips. The people selling them on ebay say that they are the producers that sell to everyone else.
Chris :-\
Nothing would surprise me.
I have seen lots of stuff advertised on ebay, by reputable dealers. Maybe they are trying to get the market that isn't being supported by the Clubs.
Bruce. >:D
Are these the ones you're talking about?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cadillac-1956-rear-bumper-exhaust-extensions_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33640QQihZ015QQitemZ250426772928QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
These don't have the two finishing pieces that go on the ends. They are definitely not made by the same company that made those for McVey's.
It's hard to tell what sort of quality these are. Obviously you would have to locate the other 4 pieces elsewhere. Thoseare the pieces that are most difficult to find. With McVey's you get the whole thing.
Be sure to purchase stainless steel nuts and bolts to assemble everything. Brass is good, too.
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on May 19, 2009, 04:44:42 PM
If you're looking at exhaust parts, does that mean she's running?
Yes Dan,
My Dad and I got her running this past Saturday. You are never going to believe what the problem was. I had originally put in a new set of points that had a condenser attached to the points. That's when it died on me. So I ran up to Auto Zone and got a new set of points that were exactly like the points I had taken out of the original distributor. So my Dad told me to throw the points with the condenser back in because it ran with those. Well as my Dad was cranking the engine I noticed blue light coming from under the rotor. There were parts on the points that were too close together and were welding to each other. I yanked the points and bent them a little farther apart and what do you know. My Dad cranked the engine and we heard a piston fire. HELL YEAH!! I was so happy I could have crapped my pants. Any ways, my dad tells me to hit the carb with some carb cleaner. He turned it over and what do you know it fired right up. I used the allen wrench to get it a little closer then used the dwell meter to get it spot on. My cousin and I went on the Power Tour in his 93 Mustang and when we got to Detroit yesterday we headed over and timed the Cadillac. She is running extremely smooth. Good acceleration. Put a new vac advance tube on, the old one had a screw in the end. the engine runs better with every step. Now if my New Spark Plug wires from Kanter would get here. It's been two weeks and I'm getting impatient. So now I have to fix the power Steering this weekend along with some leaks on transmission lines and I'll be ready to hang the exhaust. ;D Thanks Dan, and Jose you guys helped me learn a lot about the electrical system in that car. Even though my fix was a dumb one I tested everything 5 or 6 times so I know it pretty well now. Thanks Guys and everyone that sent me suggestions.
Chris
Quote from: ottoskorzeny on May 20, 2009, 09:05:06 AM
Are these the ones you're talking about?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cadillac-1956-rear-bumper-exhaust-extensions_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33640QQihZ015QQitemZ250426772928QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
These don't have the two finishing pieces that go on the ends. They are definitely not made by the same company that made those for McVey's.
It's hard to tell what sort of quality these are. Obviously you would have to locate the other 4 pieces elsewhere. Thoseare the pieces that are most difficult to find. With McVey's you get the whole thing.
Be sure to purchase stainless steel nuts and bolts to assemble everything. Brass is good, too.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1956-CADILLAC-BUMPER-INSERTS-SS-NEW_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1171Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a5Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem3ca287bf15QQitemZ260424843029QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
This is the set up that I was looking at on Ebay. I'm going to see if I can take out the old ones and clean them up and put them back in. I need to see if I can get nice new stainless inserts if I can't clean up the black ones that are in my bumper. The S pipes I don't have but the Stainless people that bent my exhaust bent some pipes for me to go out the bumper. We will see what happens when I get there. But if you know where to get a nice OEM stainless peice I would be interested. Don't want to have to sell a kidney to get it either. ;D
Chris
Those also don't have all the parts you need. They are missing the back piece. (notice how you can see through the little star design? They look home made.
Call McVey's for some excellent quality reproductions. I've had a set on my car since they became available in 2002.
McVey's (913) 722-0707 They are $498 for the pair.
I'd say the extra $98 is worth it to get a complete set in one shot instead of fooling around with a half-assed home-made setup that will require you to spend additional money for the missing pieces. You would likely end up spending the same or more with the ebay thing.
Sorry I don't have a better picture.
Forrest is right - don't waste your time with junk!
I've dealt with the 'love my 59' guy before - contact me off-list and I'll be happy to share my experience so you don't get burned.
Carl
Quote from: ottoskorzeny on June 10, 2009, 11:14:59 AM
Those also don't have all the parts you need. They are missing the back piece. (notice how you can see through the little star design? They look home made.
Call McVey's for some excellent quality reproductions. I've had a set on my car since they became available in 2002.
McVey's (913) 722-0707 They are $498 for the pair.
I'd say the extra $98 is worth it to get a complete set in one shot instead of fooling around with a half-assed home-made setup that will require you to spend additional money for the missing pieces. You would likely end up spending the same or more with the ebay thing.
Sorry I don't have a better picture.
I was looking at my car the other day and the cross hair peices of the exhaust are still in the bumper just covered in soot or plack paint. I can't really tell. I was thinking of taking a fine brillo pad and cleaning them up. Now the inner Exhaust peices aren't in there. The S shaped peices that are 500.00 at Mcvey's. I see there is a flat plate at the end of the s shaped peice. Does that bolt to the exhaust pipe? I noticed on my custom pipes that I had sent to the house there was nothing that bolted to the end. no flat plate for those to bolt to. Not custom, I mean OEM but custom bent. for the cadillac. Do they bolt to the bumper? I'll get under there again and take a look.
Quote from: ottoskorzeny on May 19, 2009, 05:52:29 PM
Chris,
Where the "s" pipe connects to the exhaust pipe, I used a short length of radiator hose of the proper diameter to slip over the pipe and keep it from vibrating against the bracket, etc.. It's unseen and works great. Originally there was a little rubber gasket like piece that the pipe slipped through to act flex to keep the pipes from rattling, etc.
You'll understand what I'm talking about when you see all the pieces laid out.
I'm there right now, I've actually had most of my exhaust rusted off so i don't really know what it's supposed to look like under there but I'll check out the shop manuel and look at the underbody of the car to see how it's supposed to hang especially with the S shaped peice on the end that you are talking about.
The McVey set for $500 has the "s" pipes and all the bezels and trim pieces to complete the installation to a factory appearance.
The square tab originally held a flat piece of heavy rubber grommet that acted as a hanger or support for the tailpipe. The pipe slips through the opening and sits there, loose.
The final connection there is not rigid. This keeps the pipes from rattling and allows for movement from body flex, etc. This is where I used a piece of radiator hose on each side
The drawing below is just a quick sketch and not to scale. The tailpipe and hose goes in a little further but you get the idea.