After about 2 years membership, why have I just received advertising from THE ANTIQUE AUTO SHOP at my business address opening with "As a member of the Cadillac LaSalle Club, I would like to welcome you as a new member"? It goes on about their services, etc., Sincerely yours, Terry Kesselring. I've heard of others in this club being spam e-mailed too. This is the type of thing that will loose members fast. Either find the "mole" or I too am gone.
Chuck
Chuck,
This is a club, we publish a directory and some may use it for their own purposes.
But in genertal we get to find like minded folks or contact others we have not chatted with who have similar cars.
If you don't like the spam use a spam blocker, don't blame the club.
lak
John Washburn
>:( Those that have been on these forums on a regular basis know what I have to say about this potential problem. MAYBE they got a hold of a club directory, maybe Mr. Kesselring is a club member and has a directory, MAYBE not. No further comment or my post may be deleted.
Geoff N.
Chuck,
You seem to be overly offended at receiving car related email. I, personally, would not consider it "spam" Spam to me is drugs, sex ,scams. ETC. Mr. Kesselring is a long time member. I looked him up in my club directly. I see you are not following forum rules and are using a "handle" & not your full name or club #. How do we know who YOU are?
Bob
John,
I do use a spam blocker on my e-mail. My post had to do with MAIL SPAM. I was unaware of the very public "Directory" and have never had this problem with any of my other on line car forum clubs.
Chuck
Geof,
Thank you for your input. It helped clear this up for me.
Chuck
Bob, et al'
This has nothing to do with e-mail spam. It's M A I L S P A M. In my postal mailbox. Please forgive my lack of "not following the rules". The other forums I'm on don't require first and last names and this is the first time I've ever been dressed down for it in this club. I've just paid my $50 each year and interacted.
My name is Chuck Webster
The other forums I'm on don't require first and last names and this is the first time I've ever been dressed down for it in this club.
We're with you, Bud.
How do we know who YOU are?
Bob, how does anyone know who anybody is online? Just because someone declares that he is "so and so" doesn't make it so. There is no way to verify any of it and there is really no need too.
I know there are frequent posters on this forum who use assumed names but are "in compliance" with the name rule simply because the powers that be have no way of knowing what anybody's real name is. It's quite ridiculous when one thinks about it.
If I hadn't told people my name 3 or 4 years ago when I joined this forum, I would have remained Otto Skorzeny and who would be able to prove otherwise? For that matter what difference would it make and who would care?
Think about this. How does anyone here know that I'm not a member of the CLC under my real name and that my name on this forum isn't a pseudonym?
It might not necessarily be the "CLC Directory" that caused you distress - In the jacket of each issue of the "Self-Starter" is a list of all new members by name and address. I do not see anything on that page advising that the list is not to be used for commercial purposes, nor do I see anything about any other restrictions of use. Perhaps a statement to that effect should be displayed prominently on that page to discourage such use. Or possibly the new member's zip code, and maybe even the street address and/or city could be non-published at this location. Just an idea. As for the Directory, CLC should have some way of omitting addresses and phone numbers if requested to do so by the club members, if such an option is not already in place. Information on how to do this could be published in the front of the Directory, along with other information of interest.
I am a known antique car collector and frequently receive unsolicited mailings from many companies in the hobby. I prefer this to the many catalogs that my wife and I receive from credit card companies, clothing stores and travel agencies, along with surveys. I do not know how others get my name and address, nor do I want to spend time in trying to do so, as it is an impossibility. Quite often I receive very interesting and useful information - other times I have no interest and discard it. Sometimes I will either email, mail or call the company, requesting that my name and address be removed from future mailings - not too difficult to do. When someone mails a catalog or direct mail letter, it costs that company plenty for the ad, and especially for the postage, so they are always happy to remove you from their mailing list if requested to do so. My peeve is with companies that sell or rent my name and address, which is in my opinion is not a good way to do business. One-time mailings are not a big issue. Sometimes it is better not to sweat the small stuff and I try not to do so.
Fred
With all the junk mail we receive I don't know whats wrong with a car person receiving a car related mailing. I get tons of junk mail, most just gets tossed in the paper recycle bin, car related stuff usually gets saved in my collection if it has any Cadillac pictures on it.
Theirs so many ways people get your address, they can buy list, member directories, phone books, town resident directories, etc. Sometimes when I'm at recycling center I'll look through magazines, it's funny how TV Guide's and Good Housekeeping will have the address label ripped off cover, then Guns & Ammo will have the persons address label left on. People seem pretty worried about someone knowing they receive the TV Guide, if I wanted to know people in towns name and address I just go to the Town Hall and buy a town resident book for $10.
As a friend of mine, and friend and member of this club, pointed out to me ----
" Page 2 of the Directory indicates that the Directory is intended solely for the personal use of the CLC members. The use of the directory for solicitation or any commercial and/or any political use is prohibited."
It was also pointed out to me that a few years ago a certain CLC region used the directory to mail to many (maybe all) members a solicitation for a Cadillac themed clock and thermometer as a fund raiser for the region. Maybe this type of use of the directory is considered acceptable, I don't know.
Geoff N.
Hello again,
This is Chuck Webster, member #25935,
Correct me if I'm wrong: For the price of membership in the club this "Directory" has all our addresses where our vehicles are probably stored. With the growing rash of stolen custom, rod and antique autos, especially in these border states, I don't feel real good about that.
Chuck
You're preaching to the choir here, Chuck.
One member removed his restoration thread on this forum because of the requirement to post his full name. Matters of privacy on the web and in printed publications should be left to the individual as to how much information he wishes to share.
I understand that the CLC list is sort of a gentleman's agreement to help members get in touch with others about model/year specific questions. I think it is extremely poor judgment for a member to use the list for his own business purposes. Place an ad in the SS if you want to get to everyone on the roster.
I think the membership roster should be treated with great care by individual members because of the reasons you suggest. It's sad but true. These are the times in which we live.
I certainly wouldn't post a list of cars I own along with my street address and full name.
I wasn't happy to see commercial advertising sharing the same pages as the photos of the 2010 Grand National cars in the Self- Starter. It really detracted from the photos.
I Just finished contact with Lars. His point was that I had nothing bad yet to report about the directory and that the majority want it. That being the case, why not have it OPTIONAL for those of us who don't feel comfortable with it? (Everything was fine.....until the first tower was hit.)
Chuck Webster, member # 25935
Agreed.
And who makes the decision as to what commercial use of the list by members is acceptable and what isn't? Isn't allowing it to be done by one person for commercial reasons opening the door for anyone to do so? What's to keep anybody from paying $50 a year for a captive audience of prospective customers?
Responding to Jim Skelly’s message, as the person who is largely responsible for planning page positions in The Self-Starter in collaboration with the editor, I see only one page (page 29) in the September issue that had cars mixed with an ad on the same page. Another thing to point out is that advertising (including the classifieds we all love) generally takes up less than one-third of the space in each month’s issue. Most commercial magazines shoot for 60 percent advertising.
If it weren't for our loyal advertisers in our publications, your CLC dues would be much higher than $35/$50 per year.
Tim
Tim,
I hope you don't take my comment personally. Each issue of the Self-Starter looks professional and I'm sure takes a great deal of effort to put together AND mailed on time. I just think in the future it would be better to have no advertising on the same pages as the photos from the current year's Grand National. It really detracted from the article. Commercial advertising keeps the cost down, and we certainly don't want to limit it.
Was this directory mailed out to us all? If so, I have not yet received mine and seem unable to find it here. Can someone direct me?
Thanks, Chuck Webster, member #25935
If you subscribe Periodical Class ($35 in the U.S. per year), the directory is scheduled to be mailed in a bag with your November-December issue of The Self-Starter. If you subscribe First-Class ($50 in the U.S. per year), your directory will be sent separately via Periodical Class from your magazine. Expect to see it in your mailboxes in November.
Tim,
I got a 2010 directory, it seems in April of this year. Was there a permanent shift in its production?
Hi Kevin,
No shift in production at all! Every year, we print a few hundred extras and those are mailed to new members as they join the club. You probably joined or rejoined last winter or early spring, therefore that's the reason you received a 2010 directory in April.
Tim
Tim,
Thanks for the info. If I drop out of the club now how long will my listing remain in the directory?
Chuck Webster, member # 25935
Well, Chuck, we don’t want you to drop out of the club!
If you are not a current member in the club’s database, your name would not appear. The directory lists all members in the club’s membership database as of August 31 of each year, so your name would not be in the following year’s directory if you dropped out.
Tim
Let's look at this again - I do not feel that this problem had any connection to the CLC Directory. Here is Mr. Webster's original post:
"After about 2 years membership, why have I just received advertising from THE ANTIQUE AUTO SHOP at my business address opening with "As a member of the Cadillac LaSalle Club, I would like to welcome you as a new member"? It goes on about their services, etc., Sincerely yours, Terry Kesselring. I've heard of others in this club being spam e-mailed too. This is the type of thing that will loose members fast. Either find the "mole" or I too am gone."
I just checked my 2010 CLC Directory and in the rear of the book in the alphabetical section, there are only 3 Websters listed: A. Webster, B. Webster and D. Webster. This means that Mr. Chuck Webster (or C. Webster) is not listed as yet, so the mail that he received was from another source - not the Directory. He is a relatively new member anyhow, so imagine that he will be listed in the upcoming 2012 Directory provided he remains a club member. Please note that on Page 2 of the current Directory, it states the following in bold print: "The use of the directory for solicitation or any commercial and/or political use is prohibited".
My original thought in my earlier post was that the mailing was a result of the "Welcome to the CLC Family" list that appears on the inside jacket of the "Self - Starter". I still feel that this is the case, as the mailing mentioned welcoming him as a new member. The "Welcome to the CLC Family" page lists new members by name, address, city, state and zip code and there is no statement regarding any restrictions of use. For starters, feel that the statement used in the Directory should be prominently displayed at the top of the new members welcome page. A better solution might be to eliminate the street address and zip code, listing only the new member's name, city and state.
Since there are no restrictions listed on this page, any club member that owns a business might decide to send out a mailing to new members without being in violation of any club polices, and in many cases, new members might welcome such mail, as it pertains to their hobby. As an example, if I just joined the CLC and later received several catalogs from sources of supply, I would really welcome such mail, as long as my name and address were not being rented or sold to others. I doubt if the CLC is swamped with similar complaints at this time, since the "Self-Starter" is mailed only to club members and has a relatively small circulation. However, if there have been many such complaints, either or both of my ideas mentioned above should eliminate future problems, without considering major and time-consuming changes to the Directory.
As to the Directory, if requests for privacy are an ongoing issue, I imagine that it could be possible for some members to request that their addresses and/or phone numbers be unlisted if they feel the need for privacy. This would involve a lot of work on someone's part when the new Directory is printed, and since things are apparently working well so far, hope that this is not necessary. Obviously it is always difficult to please all club members, so we cannot make continual changes based on a single complaint just to be politically correct.
The moderators and administrators of this forum and the CLC have their hands full at times - I for one greatly appreciate their efforts, maturity and understanding.
Fred
Fred,
VERY well said!
Bob
Fred,
I will second that. Very well said. In the world of junk mail getting junk car mail is not high on the bad list. In todays world if you are involved in any activity at all our addresses are available all over the place.
Brad Ipsen
Thanks Brad and Bob,
Summary so far:
1) CLC member of almost 2 years gets one (1) spam mailing that he thinks was due to being a CLC member. (Things like this can happen, but this is not a common occurence in our club).
2) New member threatens to leave the club in his first post (i.e. "either find the mole or I too am gone" are his exact words).
3) Various other CLC members attempt to give reason(s) for the spam and try to get new member not to leave the club.
4) Trying to be helpful, I posted several suggestions to minimize the problem in the future - hoping to appease new member and retain him as a member.
5) New member continues to complain and on his seventh (7th) post, now asks if he drops out of the club now, how long will his listing name remain in the Directory, even though according to my research, he has not yet been listed in our Directory in the first place. (I could be wrong on this, but I don't think so).
6) While the CLC members try to keep things in order and the moderators and administrators are on top of things, sometimes we must realize that it is impossible to please every single member and not always practical to address minor problems that would require major changes in our procedures.
7) However I still feel that adding a restriction clause on our welcome to new member page in the "Self Starter" could be easily done and should eliminate, or at least minimize, future complaints.
In my opinion, it is time to put this behind us and move on - everything has been working well so far!
Fred
FRED! Very well stated. I agree with your positions. If a member doesn't agree with the concepts and rules of a club then he should not be a part of that specific club. EAM
Fred,
I think you are right about the lack of disclaimers in the Self Starter being the source for this problem. It's a loophole waiting to be misused. Listing the member's city, however, there and in the directory should be enough to encourage local interaction through the club and e-mail. I agree completely with all your comments and thank you for taking the time to help.
As per Tim's suggestion, I contacted Mike & Nancy at CLC and they said that there was no problem in deleting my address and list of cars in the next directory. They asked that I contact them each future year in August to continue to do so. So I
guess it IS OPTIONAL after all.
To those with positive and constructive attitudes: Thank you for your help.
Chuck Webster, member # 25935
This loophole concerning solicitation of the new member list has been closed effective with the October issue of The Self-Starter. A disclaimer prohibiting such activity has been added.
Tim,
Thank you! One thing I learned as a teacher was that occasionally you can have a student ask a question and cause you to research and learn from it yourself no matter how long you've taught on a subject. As a "newbie", however, I do apologize to all for coming on a little too strong with my opening salvo.
Chuck Webster,
# 25935