I am new to this forum and not sure if my topic is appropriate. I am having some difficulty with the transmission on my 1955 Cadillac. Is it OK to seek help here? If so I will provide details, if not can anyone suggest where I could go for help. If someone would care to contact me my email address is cabender@snet.net .
Thank you for your consideration.
Charlie Bender
I would suggest you post this in the technical forum and ask some specific questions
This is the place. The more details you can provide, the better we can help. Describe what is happening (or not happening) and someone will chime in.
Jim
Thanks Jim, here goes.
Last fall I removed my transmission and had the seals replaced. It had been working properly and the mechanic said there was no need to mess with anything else. (He has since retired and moved 1500 miles away). Late this summer, after putting about 500 miles on the car, I noticed a bit of a slip going from 2nd to 3rd gear. I also noticed that the car would not downshift when going uphill or when I tried to accelerate. I adjusted the bands and tried to set the throttle control arm. To make a long story short, in the process of removing/installing the unit I knew that I had mashed the throttle control arm (not the gear selector) attached to the tranny. After operating on a spare that I have, I realized that I had spun the shaft in the spline of the arm attached to the inside end of the shaft. I then removed that part from the carcass and installed it in the car. To replace that shaft I had to remove the side cover and control module. ( I disassembled those parts on the carcass first so I knew what I was getting into.) Everything seemed to come apart and reassemble without any difficulty. I have a Motor's Repair Manual which gives good detail for trouble shooting. All of the symptoms that I had experienced pointed to a problem with the throttle control arm/linkage setting. I thought I would be home free when I replaced the stripped spline.
Now when I start the car it is immediately and constantly in a forward gear. No neutral, no reverse, regardless of where I move the shift lever. The gear selector shaft is properly installed. Disconnecting the throttle control rod makes no difference. Any suggestions?
Charlie Bender
If moving the shift lever does not allow the trans to go in any gear then you probably missed slipping the pin on the shift linkage into the main shift valve. If this is the case, DON'T force the shift lever into "N" or "R". You could bend the valve.
If you drop the pan, check the shift linkage on the inside of the trans. You'll see a pin that needs to fit into the long valve rod in the valve body. You'll have to remove the entire valve body to get the pin in the slot. Before you button it all back up, disconnect the manual linkage from the shift lever to the trans. Get back under the car and move the lever to the last, farthest forward position. This should be "R". Adjust the linkage so it easily goes into the linkage and fine-tune it so the dash indicator and everything line up. Also check the neutral switch adjustment so that your reverse lights are on.
Walter,
Thank you for your reply. I am not sure we are talking about the same transmission. Mine is a "Single Coupling" 4 speed Hydromatic in a 1955 Caddy (not a Jetaway). Shift lever positions are N-DD-Lo-R. Reverse is the most REARWARD position of the control lever on the side of the transmission. So far everything I have done is accessed by removing the side cover only and not the pan.
The problem that I am having is that it is ALWAYS in a forward gear, probably 1st, whenever the engine is running. Moving the shift lever makes no difference, N,D,Lo<R, it just wants to go forward. It did not do this before I took it apart to repair the throttle control mechanism. I did have to remove the control valve assembly from the side of the case when I did this.
Thanks again for your interest, I just want to make sure I looking in the right place before I take anything apart.
Charlie Bender
I do have a jetaway, but the positions are the same on the quadrant, except I have Park.
Did you disassemble any of the valve bodies and maybe forget a spring OR put a valve in the bore backward?
When you start it, does it try to move forward or is it in "N"? That's kinda scary...
No, I did not remove any of the valve bodies or springs, I just replaced the shaft and arm that are attached to the throttle control linkage. That's why I'm so puzzled. And yes, the car does move forward in ALL shift lever positions, including "N" and "R".
Charlie Bender
If I understand correctly, you have no neutral regrdless of shift linkage position as indicated on the shift quadrant.
Lift the car so the rear wheels are off the ground. Disconnect the column shift linkage from the arm of the outer shift lever on the transmission. While the car is running, move the arm on the transmission through all positions to confirm there is in fact no neutral. If there is no neutral you must ascertain which speed the transmission has "defaulted" to. Accellerate the engine to enable automatic upshifts and note the presence of downshifts on slowing of engine speed. A "no neutral" condition is usually associated with a hydraulic abonomality involving band application/release, most commoly the rear band. This band is applied by a spring and requires specific hydraulic pressure to release it. Even if the front unit is in neutral, incorrect application of the rear band will result in some locked forward vehicle motion with the rear unit in reduction. These transmissions are very simple.
If you can locate a neutral position by manipulation the outer shift arm without the shift linkage attadhed, you have a shift linkage adjustment problem or you may have incorrectly oriented the outer shift lever on the splined shaft.
It's been a long time since I rebuilt my 54 Hydramatic [essentially the same transmission] and there is a way that you can mess things up when you take the valve block apart to repair or replace that splined shaft [it always gets damaged]. There is a long valve in there that I believe , from memory is the valve that the manual select lever controls - it is possible to put the valve block back together and have the lever located in the wrong notch on that valve and that will give you the symptoms that you are experiencing. I always try to look for the easiest solution first. I am doing this from memory and would really need to look at the manual to check the details, but if I was you I would look here first as you have disturbed the valve block.
Good luck,
Phil
Thank you Dr. John and Phil for your input. To continue the saga I got adventurous today and pushed the car out of the garage. I made a loop around the garage and noticed that it shifted from 1st into 2nd. So being on a road that is not heavily travelled on a Sunday I decided to check the rest of the shifts on the way to a parking lot about 2/10 of a mile away. It did not shift from 2 to 3, and I continued toward the parking lot where I knew I could turn around without having to back up. Just before I turned off the road everything fetched up to a dead stop. I was going very slowly and it felt like I had suddenly applied the brakes (not like it was went into "park". If I tried to race the engine it would only turn about 1500 rpms (my guesstimate) and it would not move. Even being on a slight grade when I turned the engine off it didn't move, but after sitting there pondering my situation for about 2 minutes the car began to roll. I started it and moved about 100 yards and the whole thing happened again. I ended up removing the driveshaft and towing it back to the garage where it now sits. My next undertaking will be to remove the side cover again and check out Phil's suggestion.
Thanks again,
Charlie Bender
Charlie Bender
Just wondering--did you replace the ENTIRE rod or just the end? If the rod is bent at all, it'll never be right. You're better to replace the whole thing with the one that was not damaged.
Could adjusting the bands have caused this latest problem? I know I've undone more than one "fix" I've tried over the years. Sometimes taking it back to where it was just a little "broken" is better than nothing.
I don't know where you're from, but there is a trans shop in New Jersey that should know what's wrong:
FATSCO
337 ChangeBridge Road
PO Box 635
Pine Brook, NJ 07058
(973)227-2487
(800) 524-0485
info@fatsco.com
MAYBE if you explained to them what happened, they'd give you some clue as to how to fix it...
Walter,
Good thought. I will try readjusting the bands to see if that has any effect. Since the throttle control linkage was messed up when I did it the last time that could be at least part of the problem. Also I did replace the entire shaft and internal arm as a unit when I operated on the valve block.
Thanks,
Charlie Bender
PS: I am located in eastern Connecticut.
Hi Charlie,
Do you have the Kent - Moore tools for adjusting the bands? Without those it can be done by applying the bands with compressed air through the appropriate holes behind the valve block and then adjusting. I don't know of any other way. Luckily I ahev the band adjusting tools.
Phil
Phil,
I do not have the special adjusting tools. However there are instructions in the "Motors Auto Repair Manual" for adjusting the bands. The adjusters are accessed through a port in the floorboard just to the right of the gas pedal. This is how I had adjusted them, but that was when the throttle control linkage was messed up.
Charlie Bender
Thanks Charlie, I'd be interested to know haw they tell you to adjust them that way. There was another Kent-Moore tool that could do that through the holes in the floor [ie not removing the oil pan], but I would be wary of doing that adjustment without it.
Phil
it definately sound like it is locking up in two gears at once
like previous said, i would recheck what you did before changing shaft and start from there
good luck and keep us posted on the results
Here is the excerpt from the manual for adjusting the the hydramatic trannys without dropping the pan or the "special" tools. The only thing needed is a tachometer and the ability to count. I'll be using this for my 54' in the coming weeks.
I hope it is useful to those having problems.
Thank you for all the info. After we get cleaned up from this October Blizzard I hope to get a chance to spend some time with the car. When I read the excerpts from the manual there was one thing that I noticed that I don't remember doing when I adjusted the bands. It says to put the transmission from "D" to "N" when tightening the rear band. I don't think I did that, I think I left it in "D". I'm hopeful that this will work.
Charlie Bender
If you adjusted the rear band with the transmission in "D", the rear unit was in reduction with the band alredy applied.
Thanks for that info Charlie, but isn't that a special tool you have to use with the gauge on it?
If I was you I would re-adjust the bands, making sure that you have done it dead right. If that doesn't work then check the valve block. As I said before, and it was an old, very experienced transmission guy who told me, it is possible to have that long valve in the wrong position when re-assembling the valve block. This will give the symptoms that you have - ie, the manual control will be wrong and then you wont be able to select all the drive ranges - you could block out reverse, you may only get low [essentially2 speed], or drive 2 only [3 speed]. It is a simple error to make, but can cause a real headache. I always try to look at the simplest problem first.
Phil
Phil,
I took the valve body off again on Saturday and found my error. When I replaced the shift selector I did not get the tab on the back of it in the end groove of the selector spool. The thing was just free wheeling in there. You hit that one dead on. Ran out of time and was not able to complete the band adjustment, but at least things are moving forward, literally.
Charlie Bender
Its great that you found that problem, it usually is a simple thing like that.
Phil
Spent some time adjusting the bands today. Front one went as expected, rear band, however, is another story. When the engage point is achieved as described in the various books that I have, it is to be put in "N' and tightened 2 turns. When I did that it would lock up when put in reverse. Then (in trial and error mode) I alternately tightened and loosened the band. If I loosened it so it would go backwards it would not go forward, and if tight enough to go forward it would lock up in reverse. It seems to me that the band was not engaging unless I tightend it to the engagement point manually. This, of course, left it constantly engaged and it must disengage for reverse to work. I was not sure if I had the throttle control valve linkage in the proper position the last time I attempted adjusting the bands, but today I made sure the TV linkage all the way back to its stop as it should, be when I did this.
It looks as though I'm going to have to drop the tranny unless some other inspiration or enlightenment presents itself.
Charlie Bender
Charlie,
I haven't got my manual in front of me at the moment, but , if memory serves me right the Kent- Moore tool for adjusting the rear band is the one that is just cut out of a flat piece of steel. If this is the case I can scan the tool with a steel rule beside it [for the dimensions] and post it here - you can then make your own one. It doesn't have to be steel, ridgid plastic or thin plywood would work. Then all you have to do is drop the oil pan and do it without the engine running.
Phil
Phil,
That sounds like a plan. I'll try just about anything that sounds reasonable before I go through the effort of dropping the tranny.
Charlie Bender
Hi Charlie,
I will try to do that tomorrow.
Phil
Hi Charlie, I've attached a photo of the rear band adjuster tool with a steel rule. I hope this works. If you need any more info on it I'll see what I can do.
Phil
Phil,
Thanks for the info. Got a bit of a problem with the resolution of the picture when I blow it up. I feel safe in assuming the vertical end by the 5 1/2 inch mark is square to the horizontal leg. It looks to me like the setting is between the two verticals.
What I'm not sure is the exact dimensionson of the other end and how critical the shapes are. Is the crescent shape on the left (just below the ruler) a critical point? Are the holes on the bottom used in the adjusting process? Any clarification would be helpful and appreciated.
Charlie Bender
Greetings all,
An update:
I drained and removed the transmission pan yesterday. I must admit I had mixed emotions when I found the bottom of the pan just about whistle clean. Some broken pieces or bits of metal grindings would have indicated a problem and a direction to go in, but no. By now I was convinced that the problem had to do with the rear band. There was not enough play between engaged and disengaged. If I tightend the band so it would move forward it would bind up in reverse. If I loosened it enough for it to go in reverse it would not go forward. One of the manuals that I have, referenced an air test for trouble shooting by blowing air into the various holes that were exposed when the control valve assembly is removed from the side of the case. Not having exactly the right equipment I got inconclusive results from the first few holes in the sequence. A breakthrough came when I put air pressure to the passage that activated the release for the rear servo. Air blew out just about everywhere on the servo where there was a hole. In another manual I found that the rear servo could be removed with the transmission in the car. Two bolts have to be removed and an oil line taken off. I dismantled the server and EUREKA a broken piston ring. (At this point I wasn't 100% sure that this was the problem since taking the servo apart required a bit of force and I couldn't be sure that I did not break the ring in that process). I have a transmission carcass from which I then removed the rear servo and installed it in my car. During the process of adjusting the bands (via the external method) it became evident that I was home free. I made a couple of test loops around the yard and then headed up the road. It was like I had a CVT in the car. Every shift is smooth as silk, it downshifts in response to a full throttle or up hills, and I don't even notice the somewhat hard 2-1 downshift that used to be there upon coming to a stop.
I can't help wondering: If I had removed the tranny and had it rebuilt, new bands, steels, etc., would I have put it back in and and found no improvement? Would a transmission mechanic check the internal components of a servo? The rear servo is at least partially engaged by a large spring. The broken ring was on the piston that compresses that spring to release the band, hence the band was always engaged unless I manually released it via the external adjuster.
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, to everyone who chimed in to give me advice and encouragement.
Charlie Bender
PS Attached (I think) is a picture of my car. That's me driving with a smile about 1/2 as big as the smile I had when that transmission worked right.
Attached
Congratulations Charlie,
All transmission builders would have done the air-pressure testing, and would have found the problem, but you would have been charged for a complete transmission rebuild.
They wouldn't have tested anything prior to disassembling, just pulled it to pieces.
Having done what you did, you are now a Transmission Expert. Well, almost.
Bruce. >:D
Hi Charlie, congratulations and I'm sorry I didn't get back to you about your questions on the Kent Moore tool - I've been away working for the past 5 days. The rebuild kit that I got from Fatsco had all the new piston rings as well as gaskets and seals. When I rebuilt it with a transmission man that had worked on these from new we air tested all the circuits to make sure everything was ok prior to putting the valve block back on. Feels good getting a smooth transmission after all that doesn't it?!!
Phil
Hats off to you, sir for a successful repair. There are two things that scare me on a car - automatic transmissions and carburetors. I've not attmpted a carburetor rebuild and all I've done is a valve body and filter swap on a Jetaway Hydra-Matic. Any more than that, and I'm done for.
Kudos once again.
Thanks guys, this is the first time that I've ever seen the innards of an automatic transmission. All I could think of the whole time was the AAMCO (I think) commercial with the less than competent appearing guy with the water hose saying "Gee, I always wanted to fix a transmission Boss".
I'm still on a high.
Charlie Bender
bonjour vous avez un problème de desserrage de vos bandes sur vos tamboures faite un contrôle de pression et un contrôle de la vanne de passage du groupe hydraulique et un réglage de la commande d'accélérateur
Or in English:
hello you have a problem releasing your tapes on your drum is a pressure control and a control valve and the passage of hydraulic adjustment of the throttle.
Bruce. >:D
Hi Bruce
Did you let translate with a machine? Do you understand what was translated? If you need a correct translation, let me know!
Yes, translated with the internet, but as we all know, the internet is "perfect"
My school French is VERY poor.
Bruce. >:D