I am in the process of trying to get my 1941 engine running and my friend that is helping me out is trying to convince me that if it needs to be rebuilt, it would be better to swap out the original engine and tranny for a 350 crate motor/tranny. He states that it will be a much more reliable and be able to perform on the freeway way better. More or less a much better daily driver all around and for much less than it would cost to rebuild the original engine and tranny. Any thoughts? Anyone got a good person who rebuild caddy engines in CA? I like the idea of keeping the original. But does he have a point?
IMHO the problem is that most mechanics today do not know anything about a flat head Caddy engine. Those engines performed very well when new and will today as well if you have a mechanic that understands them.
350 crate engines are understood by nearly all mechanics so that is the advice they will give you.
Why does your friend say the engine needs to be rebuilt? My vote is to keep the original engine.
Hello Andy
Awesome that you are considering improving your Cadillac.
Have you had a conference with yourself to determine the long term goal for the car? Your budget and time will guide you. If you want the car to be authentic keep/rebuild the original engine. If you want a motor that is mechanically common use the 350.
He does have a point. They are reliable, and can produce more power than that old flathead. Anyone can build one and install one. If this car will be nothing more than a driver, then go ahead. Being able to tool around in an old car with the A/C keeping you cool is fun.
If you ever think you'll show, or even sell the car, then stay with the flathead. It'll take a little more work to keep it running well, but it sure looks nice seeing an original engine under the hood then 'yet another 350'. I can't tell you what a letdown that is when looking at cars in a show or cruise in, and looking under the hood and seeing 'yet another 350'. Even in the old Fords and Lincolns!!
In my humble opinion, and it is my opinion, I'm not spending your money, if the car came with the OEM or even an era-correct replacement engine, and it's not seriously-damaged, then I'd rebuild it. If you bought a rolling chassis and you're just trying to get the car on the road, then a nice small block chevy might be a nice option.
Call Rettig Brothers in Modesto 209-529-8016
They rebuilt my friends 56 olds few years back for around $4k.
Andy,
You'll see a lot of differing opinions on this one, but for me, the bottom line is to "keep it Cadillac" what ever you do. I'm just about finished up with my '41 coupe and I stayed with the original drivetrain because the numbers matched , the engine had recently been rebuilt , a Cadillac flathead is neat, and ac can be added to them. However, had the drive train been shot, I would have pulled it and kept it and installed a late model, rear drive, fuel injected Cadillac engine, trans, and possibly rear end. When done properly, I've seen cars with such mods. go for more than a nicely restored original. I did this with a 1929 Chrysler 75 roadster (used a 2001 jeep fuel injected 6cyl. and 903 auto, but had to "cheat" a bit with a 65 Ford mustang rear end.) The car was otherwise original and if I kept the hood down I could have shown it as such. It was quite the "stealth" car, as people would often pull up beside me at a light and wonder where I went when that light changed. A guy in Canada bought it from me and I bought a 50 Cadillac coupe after that.
Ken Karrer 1941 6227D coupe
My car will not be show quality by any means. I plan on driving that thing whenever and where ever I can. At some point in time I will probably need to sell it to help pay for my little girls school. So cost is a factor. I am assuming when and if I sell, The buyer will not be buying it to show, but rather to hop in and drive. this things being a factor, does it push one way or the other?
If it is going to be a driver, then you might be better off with the 350. Locating parts on a timely basis may be a problem and the cost should be considered as well. I am thinking of things like fuel and water pumps that might fail and you can't run down to AutoZone to pick one up.
I installed a front clip from a Camaro as well as the rear axle. It has a 350/th350 combo and it runs down the road nicely. Power steering and brakes are a nice plus. I did upgrade the radiator to an all aluminum one. I had it custom built to match the shape of the original radiator.
I have seen several 41 Sixty specials with a Northstar conversion that looked very well done.
T Lewis
Quote from: curly on November 12, 2012, 03:16:46 PM
If it is going to be a driver, then you might be better off with the 350. Locating parts on a timely basis may be a problem and the cost should be considered as well. I am thinking of things like fuel and water pumps that might fail and you can't run down to AutoZone to pick one up.
I installed a front clip from a Camaro as well as the rear axle. It has a 350/th350 combo and it runs down the road nicely. Power steering and brakes are a nice plus. I did upgrade the radiator to an all aluminum one. I had it custom built to match the shape of the original radiator.
I have seen several 41 Sixty specials with a Northstar conversion that looked very well done.
T Lewis
What he said ^^^
NS conversion would be neat, but likely outside your budget. Sometimes you are better off buying something someone fixed up, as they can get $.60 on the dollar input, especially if they do body modifications. I would not use as a daily driver, IMHO, the older cars I've maintained they seem to always need something and like was said, the parts are difficult in many cases to come across, however the engine trans is pretty reliable. You can convert the points with a Pertronix ignition. Just the handling, safety, etc is not going to be very close unless you go pretty crazy changing stuff, and cars with those mods sell regularly, and would be mostly ready to go w/o all the work. Just an idea. Unless you are really handy and like projects. Have time, tools, a garage, etc.
I have had 5 flat head V8 Cadillacs starting in 1956. I've driven them all over the eastern part of the country, with reliability. Two of the '41 cars have replacement engines, either because of a cracked block, or an engine that had been replaced with another '41 engine before I bought the car. Both of those engines are Cadillac engines of 1937-48 vintage.
There are two things that I WOULD NOT do, that are so popular with certain individuals on this board. They are: 1) Newer engine, and 2) Converting electrical systems to 12 volts.
First, using a "better" engine only means to me that the owner wants PERFORMANCE. In the back of his mind, he wants some degree of a racing sled.....not a more reliable engine, but something to show off with. He'd never tell the truth about it to save his soul.
Second, most owners will not seek expert guidance on his electrical system, to make it function as well as it did originally. he wants to hear a faster starter, even if the original 6 Volt starter cranks the engine as new. Or, possibly, he wants to heap all sorts of 12 volt accessories in the car. My reply to that is: if you want a modern car, let the vintage car be unmolested, and use your modern one with all of that crap on it, rather than on a collector car.
Lemme cite an example of reliability. In 1960, I bought a 1938 Cadillac 60 Special in Mamaroneck, New York on a Friday. I spent a few hours having the brake cylinders rebuilt. The next morning, I headed out for Detroit in a horrendous rainstorm, which was a hurricane. Drove on the thruway where I ran out of the weather just past the long Albany curve to the west., and it was clear sailing all the way to Detroit (approx. 700 miles) The car needed a valve job, but still it ran reliably. Not bad for a car In which I set out for home, knowing nothing about it, and having owned it for only 24 hours.
My '41 convertible sedan was just a mass of rust, and eaten out floor pans....just scrap metal in 1970. I restored it completely, and in about 1994, drove it all over the UP of Michigan, for a week, then back home, with no problems. Not bad for an unreliable engine, is it? Also did just fine with the 6 Volt electrical system, too. Having had that sort of reliability and enjoyment with an original engine, and using the original electrical system, no home-grown expert will ever convince me about those so-called "improvements" like newer engines, and 12 Volt systems.
The same story can be told about the other two '41's. They've both been on long trips, and might as well have been modern cars. One of them has a factory air conditioner in it, and is even nicer on long trips. But, if you absolutely need an air conditioner, take a modern car, and leave the collector car at home. I've never suffered a heat stroke when driving sans air con.
We were trying to get that engine going again today. We were having trouble getting the engine turning fast enough to get it to fire so we cleaned the starter up and that made a difference. We have Fuel (adding gas/ starter fluid) we can smell gas when we take out a plug . We have spark (all plugs are sparking) There is compression we can hear it when we take out a plug but have not been able to get a good test yet. Took the air cleaner off but still cant get it to fire up. It's turning so it's not stuck but wont fire. Any ideas? It's been sitting for god knows how long so we are kinda at a loss.
Moved that one to a new post ;D
If you're getting compression and fuel and spark (guessing that the coil is ok) I'd check the condenser and points. After that I'd mark the distributor's current location, loosen the hold down, and rotate the distributor slightly clockwise and counterclockwise while turning the engine over. A little spritz of starting fluid may help as well. As you're doing this you'll most certainly have the air breather off, so keep yourself well-back from the opening of the carb as a backfire is possible.
Ken Karrer 1941 6227D coupe
What will rotating the distrib. do? I am not a mechanic so all this in new to me, but I'm learning :D
Rotating the distributor is how the timing is adjusted. It's possible that the timing is off. Rotating one way advances the timing and the other way retards it. Before you mess with that, try the starting fluid spray down the throat of the carb (just one quick spritz, don't over do it) and see if it tries to start. Not knowing any other history here makes more advice pretty tough. I'm assuming that your plugs are new and that the spark plug wires (firing order) are correctly placed and that your points, condenser, rotor, and coil are good. If that engine has just be sitting for a long time and you haven't replaced the points and condenser, you really must eliminate them as a possible source of the problem. I'll usually pull the coil wire from the top center of the distributor cap and have someone turn the engine over (ignition on) while I direct the end of that lead to a ground. I'm looking for a good spark. If I get that. I'll usually assume that the ignition circuit and coil may be ok I'll then progress to the points. With the cap off and the ignition on, turn the engine over and look to see (and listen) for a spark between the contacts of the points also check the condition of those contacts. They should be clean and even and properly gapped. All of those starting attempts will pull your battery down and can have a negative effect on your starter, solenoid, and cables as well. Don't push them too hard for too long and be sure they're in good shape to start with.
Ken Karrer 1941 6227D coupe
I had the same problem with my 47 Cad. and it turned out that the timing chain had jumped 2 links. I would set the timing mark on the vibration damper inline with the pointer, next i would check the position of the rotor & points to see if they are lined up with the distributor cap. Bear in mind that if you are way off you may need to turn the engine over one more revolution for things to line up. The rotor should line up with the # 1 cylinder wire on the cap. If i remember correctly the # 1 cylinder is the first one on the left head as you are in the drivers seat. If i am wrong on the #1 cylinder then the first cylinder on the right head will be the one.
Lee DeVol
We tried to get it top dead center yesterday and all the plugs and wires are in the correct firing order. But I'm not sure if it matters but doesn't seem right that the positive cable which is grounded it really hot. We only have the wires from the stater and the ignition hooked up and thats what we are using to try and get it to fire so there should not be any draw anywhere else.
I'll throw out my opinion. If it's between your original engine or a carbureted small block chevy, personally I would just stick with original. As others have stated, when rebuilt and tuned correctly it will be reliable.
I like to "resto-mod" cars but to make it worthwhile to me it needs to be fuel injected/overdrive/air conditioning/etc, really modernizing the mechanicals rather than just swapping it out for a somewhat newer carbureted engine.
It appears that everything is in order, so the engine should start. The Last ditch resort in cases like this is to hit it with 12 Volts. The engine has a chance of hotter ignition, as well as being started at a faster RPM.
In the (good) old days, starting a tight engine was done by towing the car along a good street, until it would begin to fire. At that time, there were no domestic cars with 12 volt electrical systems.
I hate to even use 12 volts on the starter, but for a sort of momentary operation, it won't hurt the starter. And, in the process of tow starting with a Hydra-Matic transmission, the car needs to be moving at around 15 MPH, before the selector is dropped in the "Drive" position.
Once the engine is running, you should have a vacuum gauge on the intake manifold, where the wiper feed, etc. is. The timing marks on the harmonic balancer are good for identifying top dead center, but since the fuels we have today are grossly different than 1941 fuels, a good way to set timing is to peak the vacuum, and set the distributor from there. That's the way I set timing.
Check also, from the shop manual (if you have one), and see if the timing is to be set with the vacuum control disconnected. That would be important.
If the cables are hot, there is a high current draw, either the the starter is bad or the engine is too tight, 12v is not the answer here, plugs out of the engine, should turn easily with a wrench on the crank bolt. If 12v is required something isn't right. I have never had to go to these extremes on any engine I have worked on, I have a 36 Cord in the shop that hasn't run in 35 years came from dry storage in AZ, it has a transplanted late 40's Cad engine, after a week soaking it will only turn by hand 1/2 a rev. back and forth, probably some stuck valves, any way we are going to give it a 12v shot just for a quick jolt and see what happens,
What if the engine is too tight? Is there a solution for this? Any way to test if the starter is bad or not working properly?
As mentioned, the engine should turn easily by hand using a wrench on the crank pulley. (Spark plugs out.) It it is hard to turn, put some marvel mystery oil in each cylinder, let it sit for a few hours/overnight and try turning it again. Be sure to rotate the engine several times either by hand or with the starter before reinstalling the plugs. You run the chance of hydrolocking the engine if there is too much liquid in the cylinders.
If the engine is easy to rotate, the problem lies in the starter or the connections.
T Lewis
it wont take very long cranking to get the cables hot, specially on a 6v system
if you crank for a minuite trying to fire the old girl,the starter and cables will be very hot
have you tried a quick shot of starting fluid,i mean a very little bit
plus , if the plugs have been flooded there is a good chance they may never fire under compression
i would first do a compression test to see what # you have,then work from there
you have spark at the plugs and that is a good sign
on the swap, i think you should do whatever will get you the most enjoyment out of the car
i have a 62 caddy i drive the wheels off
tonight i put on almost a 100 miles mingling in pretty heavy freeway traffic in detroit at 80 mph
is my car bone stock,nope, wouldnt do that confidently with a completely stock 62 let alone a 41
i have stock running gear, big disc brakes, updated 2 turn lock to lock steering and i can drive with confidence at 80 knowing i can panic stop pretty much as good as anyone else on the road and steer where i want to go when i want to
this year alone i put almost 10,000 miles on the old girl,4700 of that was in a 9 day drive,all highway over 70-80 mph
the caddy engine will probably set you back $5 grand to do a complete correct rebuild, trans a couple grand more
as for converting to 12 v, not a real big deal,just everything electrical need like gauges and blower motors need a voltage reducer installed or changing
the car as original would be really really nice, just not something you want to take on a day long high speed run
you can get a crate 350 for just over 1/3 that
not everyone updates the engine to go racing, they just want something more user friendly, specially if you cant wrench on it yourself
any shop will work on a 350, not to many will even entertain the idea of a flathead
the original engines were dead reliable,some of the best out there,but that was over 70 yrs ago in this case
if you wanted to drive down the freeway at 55 mph, drive to a local car show,do a country drive or drive to the local dairy freeze for ice cream,the stock will be good, but you will be a sitting duck in traffic as traffic whizzes by you on the freeway at 55 mph
when the car was built ,there was no freeway system so prewar cars were never designed to be high speed runners
a lot of cars end up being worth more to the next owner because they have been updated ,when done properly
i personally would go the engine swap on something that old ,as well as adding some disc brakes ,dual circuit master cylinder to safely stop the beast when rolling
at the nationals in st augustine, there was an amazing 35 i think, beautiful car
very modified, either a 472 or 500 caddy engine, trans, newer rear axle,disc brakes and the owner and wife travelled all over in that car
one of the nicest custom jobs i have ever seen and 2 giant thumbs up to him for enjoying the car
it is your car, do as you like and what will give you the most enjoyment
just my thoughts, but i drive all my old cars like i stole them with confidence
That's exactly what my buddy is telling me. Thinks I could sell the engine for what it would cost me for a new 350 and tranny. Tempting with not much money outta pocket. Still buggs me we can get it firing. might try new bushings on the starter. Just cant see dumping a bunch of money into an engine that I cant afford to rebuid. But still would love to get it firing and have it run great...probably a pipe dream since I dont know how long it had been sitting or for what reason.
i would do a compression test first before spending a dime on something you may not use
it would be great to have it run for future sale value
I would sign your buddy up to that deal to give you for a shot flathead what the 350 and tranny will cost! As soon as you are finished, I've got a couple of deals for him too!
Quote from: andynjoy99 on November 13, 2012, 11:23:47 PM
That's exactly what my buddy is telling me. Thinks I could sell the engine for what it would cost me for a new 350 and tranny. Tempting with not much money outta pocket.
Never in a million years!! I have seen Flatheads all over the US that need rebuilding for less than $500, I dont know the cost of a 350 but if what your buddy thinks is true Ill take a dozen ;D
Sorry I said new but what i meant was newly rebuilt. Big difference.
As the owner of the '35 sedan (Big Red) at the St. Augustine GN, I thank you for the kind words "62droptop", I remember talking with you at the show. Big Red is the kind of vehicle I have long wanted, all of the looks of a car of that era and all of the comforts and driveability of a new(er) car. Yes, I could have just bought more modern car with "all of that crap" and left the old car home for local car shows and cruise nights, but I wanted my cake and to eat it too and that is precisely what I now have. My wife and I have driven Big Red with its 472 all over the eastern U.S. and will continue to do so in air conditioned comfort with cruise control while sitting on a pair of comfy 2006 Cadillac CTS seats. Later this past summer we drove the car from Florida to Connecticut, New York State, Ohio, and Indianapolis, from Indy we went to the "Frog Follies" show in Evansville, IN before returning home to Florida. I would never have attempted that in a stock '35, nor do I think I would have enjoyed it had I attempted to do so.
I have no argument with those that want their cars to be original or with those that want to modify for reliability, comfort, safety, and/or speed --- any one or all of those. I love them both ways. What you want to do with the car when it is ready for the road and what you want it to do for you is a big consideration and one you should give a lot of weight to as you ponder. It will be easier to rebuild your current engine (those that know these engines are out there) than swap it out.
For ME personally I would not denigrate a Cadillac with a Chevrolet engine (I like the expression that Chevy's are for Fords). IMO, something like a 1949 331 all the way up to a 1962 390 would make a much better choice for that car, especially from a value and esthetics standpoint. If you want more, then a 472/500 cannot be beat (even by a Chevy big block) but that is a lot of engine. And I agree with the others who have pointed out that selling your old engine, in need of a rebuild, to buy a crate motor, and transmission, will be little more than a drop in the bucket towards the purchase price.
Quote from: S Passmore on November 14, 2012, 03:37:23 AM
Never in a million years!! I have seen Flatheads all over the US that need rebuilding for less than $500, I dont know the cost of a 350 but if what your buddy thinks is true Ill take a dozen ;D
around my area, for much less that a grand you can get a really decent running 350 engine auto trans old car or truck for a donor
chevy engines are cheap to build
i bought a top quality timing chain set for my small block chev powered boat for like $35
timing set for my 62 390, over $110 more
if budget is a issue, a good running donor vehicle can give you pretty much everything you could need for a swap if bought the right car,
BUT
it is always easier to replace with what was there as there is a ton of fabricating to do, engine/trans mounts,driveshaft,shift linkage,cooling system,exhaust and more importantly manifolds, can you find some to fit your application without hitting steering etc, plus a host of other things that will be very costly if you cannot do yourself
the caddy engines up to the 62 390 will bolt in like others suggest, but still a really expensive engine to build
i too like to see proper engines in the cars, like a chevy in a chevy and so forth
but i would also rather see a old car with not original engine driving and being enjoyed than a old car sitting and wasting away because it is not useable the way it is
and Big Red is one hell of a nice car, and the owners were great people,i talked their ears off for a while, sorry about that!
just wish i took more pictures of it, was truely a work of art
and i love the fact that is driven everywhere!
i think when my 390 calls it a day, i will replace with something different like a gm lsx and 6 speed auto or whatever better comes along at that time
for me it is all about the driveability and the awesome looks of the old car
i like the fact that i can treat my 50yr old car like a new car and can take anythime, anywhere
i can go buy a new car,but they are boring looking
What ever you do, plan it out from beginning to end and stay organized. Plan the money as well as the work and time. Are you doing the work yourself, do you have the tools and space and patience to see the project through to a happy conclusion?
If one does a nation wide search on Craigslist at any given time there are literally hundreds of failed projects for sale, many started as good cars but fell victim to someones big dreams, poor planning or short finances or all of the above. Many of these cars will be lost to the automotive history of the country for good and end up crushed. The best many of them can hope for is becoming donor parts cars for others.
Best of luck, whichever way you go. Jim Stamper CLC#13470 Grantham, NH