If the economy changes in the future, could Cadillac's from the 1970's be as valuable as ones from the 1950's?
From where I sit, the value of anything will fluctuate over time.
Older cars will lose their value as people that appreciate them pass away, and younger people lose interest in them.
The later cars will appreciate in value as people will want to drive and enjoy them, BUT, really newer cars will almost become worthless as these vehicles are so mass-produced, and due to their complexity, become impossible to restore.
As Plastic degrade, and computer-controlled electronics corrode away, the future for them is not good.
As for Cadillacs of the '70's, these will, in my opinion, increase in value, as a lot of them were sold off as scrap, due to their excess mass, and the value of scrap iron went through the roof. Those that are left, should be still in reasonable condition, and easier to maintain, and drive.
I have been around cars for years, and from what I see, in most cases, it is the offspring of original owners that appreciate the cars of the era that their parents drove, as that is their first good memories. That is why there is a great movement to the imported cars, as these cars were all that their parents could afford.
Bruce. >:D
Hello Dominic
You pose an interesting question. I concur with Bruce.
The formula I use is rare premium low mileage automobiles in great condition will increase in value.
My 1966 Chevelle SS is an example of how fast a collector cars value can fall.
10 years ago these we're bringing upwards of $60-70,000.
Then the crash and now a substantial number of people who owned these cars as youngsters and went to the drive in on a date and all that happened there, have passed on. The market has now dropped to the low $15-20's.
I believe that the collector car hobby is generational and as that generation passes on that segment of that generation of cars dies with them.
Barring the unforseeable - there will always be demand for top grade pristine originals - thus ensuring future appreciation - regardless of year, make or model.
Higher '50s vs '70s collectibility/values is due to a number of factors in my view:
Styling.
'50s (particularly late '50s) represent the utmost in postwar decadence of American automotive styling. The period is a very finite one - limited to several years or so. The age is - and will continue to be - an era that will remain a subject of fascination to historians - both automotive and of American culture at large. It's gone for good and will never be repeated. Cars such as the 57/58 Bonneville, '59 Cadillac convertible, '58 Buick Limited & others - will be the Dusenbergs of the future.
Obsolescence.
'50s cars rapidly became outdated - perhaps faster than any other single era transitioning from one to the next: If you owned a '50s car in the '60s, everybody knew it. This usually translates to increased depletion since the values became small in relation to maintenence and running costs. Survival rate is worsened as a result.
Production.
Output in the American auto industry grew dramatically in the 1970s. The result is a relatively large quantity of '70s material which more easily satisfies demand, which in turn is detrimental to value. Reduction of styling individuality, governmental regulations and its resulting damaging effects on overall quality - also played a significant role - as uniqueness is one of the cornerstones in the field of collectability.
That said, the very finest examples will almost always be prized among the most serious car collectors - regardless of decade from which they hail.
**Welcome to the CLC Forum Domimic.
Most of what I have read, I agree with.
On the other side of the coin, from what I have read, there should be little interest in Cadillacs (or any brand) from the 20s, 30s and 40s at this point. This I disagree with.
Put a 1939 Cadillac in a field surrounded by cars of the 70s and see if it doesn't get its share of attention? What say you?
Regards, Richard
Quote from: ericdev on October 31, 2013, 09:38:17 AM
Barring the unforseeable - there will always be demand for top grade pristine originals - thus ensuring future appreciation - regardless of year, make or model.
Higher '50s vs '70s collectibility/values is due to a number of factors in my view:
Styling.
'50s (particularly late '50s) represented the utmost in postwar decadence of American automotive styling. The period is a very finite one - limited to several years or so. The age is - and will continue to be - an era that will remain a subject of fascination to historians - both automotive and of American culture at large. It's gone for good and will never be repeated. Cars such as the 57/58 Bonneville, '59 Cadillac convertible, '58 Buick Limited & others - will be the Dusenbergs of the future.
Obsolescence.
'50s cars rapidly became outdated - perhaps faster than any other single era: If you owned a '50s car in the '60s, everybody knew it. This usually translates to increased depletion since the values became small in relation to maintenence and running costs. Survival rate is worsened as a result.
Production.
Output in the American auto industry grew dramatically in the 1970s. The result is a relatively large quantity of '70s material which more easily satisfies demand, which in turn is detrimental to value. Reduction of styling individuality, governmental regulations and its resulting damaging effects on overall quality - also played a significant role - as uniqueness is one of the cornerstones in the field of collectability.
That said, the very finest examples will almost always be prized among the most serious car collectors - regardless of decade from which they hail.
**Welcome to the CLC Forum Domimic.
Welcome to the forum Dominic. The only advice I can give is to listen to what Eric has to say very carefully. He has been around Cadillacs and cars in general his whole life and knows what he's talking about and is usually pretty spot on in this area.
Quote from: Richardonly on October 31, 2013, 09:54:56 AM
Most of what I have read, I agree with.
On the other side of the coin, from what I have read, there should be little interest in Cadillacs (or any brand) from the 20s, 30s and 40s at this point. This I disagree with.
Put a 1939 Cadillac in a field surrounded by cars of the 70s and see if it doesn't get its share of attention? What say you?
Regards, Richard
The trouble with some automotive journalism is that there are simply too many generalities.
From where I stand the only "journalism" worth following in that regard is the final verdict of the marketplace - which is all that matters in the final analysis.
Quote from: Dlynn78 on October 31, 2013, 12:45:00 AM
If the economy changes in the future, could Cadillac's from the 1970's be as valuable as ones from the 1950's?
Well, except for the fact that Cadillacs from the '50's will probably worth MORE in the future, I do think Cadillacs from the '70's will appreciate with time. They already are, but as with '50's models, it depends on particular year, model and options. Depending on those three variables, you may actually end up with a Cadillac built in the 1970s having value parity with one build in the 1950s, but on average, the '70's models will probably always trail the value of the '50's models primarily because of differences in the available inventory between the two.
I agree with Richards observations on the older Cadillacs or any collectable cars for that matter. My point is that the pool of buyers, enthusiasts or collectors shrinks for that generation of cars as time goes by.
Quote from: Two Crabs on October 31, 2013, 11:31:49 AM
I agree with Richards observations on the older Cadillacs or any collectable cars for that matter. My point is that the pool of buyers, enthusiasts or collectors shrinks for that generation of cars as time goes by.
*I think Richard indicated
disagreement with prognoses he's read.
If the trends the old car hobby & related industries over the last several decades is any indication, I don't see a major decline in the forseeable future.
Increased global wealth makes such a scenario all the more unlikely in my view.
Just jumping in here with a quick point. I don't remember my father having anything but 70's and 80's cars. Yet I, and all my friends, have a fondness for vintage autos. People of all ages go all gaga eyed over my 38. Even more so when they hear it's a Cadillac.
Wait until the newly rich Chinese billions find out that they can get antique American cars on the cheap, so to speak. What I mean is, globalization is spreading the wealth.
Correct.
Two key factors:
Gobal wealth.
Overseas vintage American car starvation: More demand from foreign than domestic interest.
Trillions in new wealth has to land somewhere - and a big portion of it ultimately lands on toys. Cars arguably being the ultimate toys - with prime vintage being the ultimate of ultimate.
Just a bit of an anecdote:
I just sold a mint 1980 Coupe deVille at Hershey. Serious buyers were foreigners; scant interest from Americans. Familiarity breeds contempt.
Car went to Brazil.
The car Eric sold, for those of you who didn't see it, was about as factory fresh as they get
Yeah, my father always owned Cadillac's and I grew up around them, I remember the spokes from crawling around the driveway. ;D
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on October 31, 2013, 01:07:46 PM
The car Eric sold, for those of you who didn't see it, was about as factory fresh as they get
Thanks Dan.
I miss it already.
It was beautiful. Absolutely loved that blue.
Early '70s models may not catch up in total price with cars from the '50s, but you are starting from a much lower investment outlay. The law of large numbers begins taking over, and it's easier for me to imagine a $15k car effortlessly going to $30k than a $200k car going to $400k. Sooner or later there just aren't enough California real estate developers and mortgage brokers to support the market.
The nice thing about late '60s and early '70s Cads is that they have more modern creature comforts that the earlier "classics" lacked, like A/C, power accessories and the like, while still offering Cadillac styling cues we've come to love. Not excessively Naderized yet, and not burdened with the balky technological quirks that they started getting in the '80s. They are a good compromise, IMHO.
I see this a little differently.
I see a number of factors at work in this, most of which have all been touched on, including:
Generational - ie the 8 - 15 years olds of a certain period tend to want to buy in their 30s + what they lusted after when they were kids
Family - what Dad etc., owned
Rarity - One of the most important drivers of potential capital appreciation
Styling/engineering - whatever it is in one or more of these categories to make someone, in addition to the above, want one?
Ease of use - this is an issue for most cars prior to WW2
Parts availability - not much fun if you cant fix it
And finally market/economic cycles
By way of example, I find it difficult to imagine any significant - inflation aside - capital upside in 70s Cadillacs. They might rank strongly in the first two categories and parts availability but outside of this I cant think of any particularly compelling price drivers. This doesn't mean they aren't good cars, though.
My two cents worth.
John
Quote from: 4860S on November 13, 2013, 08:04:12 PM
By way of example, I find it difficult to imagine any significant - inflation aside - capital upside in 70s Cadillacs. They might rank strongly in the first two categories and parts availability but outside of this I cant think of any particularly compelling price drivers. This doesn't mean they aren't good cars, though.
Many once had very similar feelings about 1950s iron too, difficult as it is to believe in the present day.
I will concede however that in order for most any '70s vehicle to have good appreciation potential, pristine original condition is absolutely manditory.
It would be interesting to take a poll here to see vehicle age vs owner age.
I keep reading how everyone wants what they wanted when they were kids or what their parents owned. Well I didn't know an Eldorado Brougham existed when I was a kid and I really don't want an 83 AMC wagon.
That being said, I would love a Duesenberg, I would love Erics CDV and I wish I didn't sell my F355. I guess what I'm trying to say is I like many cars for different reasons from all different time periods and I don't think I'm alone in that respect.
I don't think the 70's cars will ever reach or exceed 50's values for several reasons. Will pristine original 70's examples appreciate? Absolutely.
The advantage of the later ('70s) models is that the factors of utility, reliability and relative ease of servicing are significantly improved. This should help to bolster values somewhat - particularly among owners less in a position to maintain their vehicles themselves.
I was born in 1940 and licensed to drive in 1956, but never owned a post war car until several years later so I have fondness for prewar cars. But in addition to that I became a pretty good mechanic and could do just about any repair to any car until the age of electronics arrived. I see cars that were nice serviceable drivers and possible future classics being crushed because although they were good cars and looked good and ran well yesterday, but the new glitch is so difficult to find and so expensive to repair they end up crushed.
In general the cars of today give better and more economical service but the end comes as it becomes economically impractical to repair them.
It's amazing to me, although maybe it should not be, that a "licensed mechanic" these days looks at my car like it is something from another planet. Isn't my car what they learned first? Basic ignition system, battery and starter with a solenoid and a generator (I'd call it an alternator if it makes them feel better). There isn't really much more to it.
If they can't plug in a computer to tell them which part to swap out then they can't fix it and CLEARLY don't understand what is going on.
The later 70s are among the easiest to maintain, and are happy on todays fuel.
Bruce (driving a 77 daily) Roe
I think of the 70's and 80's cars as modern cars but am shocked when I see cases where what I consider should be common parts are not available. Other members searching for hard to get parts. Finding parts for my one off 38 is like winning the lottery. I imagine some parts I need sitting in someones barn or storage shed, rotting, while I fruitlessly search.
Quote from: ericdev on November 15, 2013, 09:44:29 AM
Many once had very similar feelings about 1950s iron too, difficult as it is to believe in the present day.
I will concede however that in order for most any '70s vehicle to have good appreciation potential, pristine original condition is absolutely manditory.
Absolutely right. I'm sure the guys from the horseless carriage club had the same discussion in 1958...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/imlsdcc/4271507461/
I sort of look at it this way.
How many of you are driving a 1913 Cadillac as a daily driver ? 100 year old car today.
Joe, in 25 years yours will make that status.
I feel my 78 will be on the road a lot longer. At least it will out live me..........ha
Roy
Quote from: 6262 on November 17, 2013, 02:12:39 AM
Absolutely right. I'm sure the guys from the horseless carriage club had the same discussion in 1958...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/imlsdcc/4271507461/
Welcome to the CLC forum Nils!
Quote from: Joe Ceretti on October 31, 2013, 12:29:54 PM
Just jumping in here with a quick point. I don't remember my father having anything but 70's and 80's cars. Yet I, and all my friends, have a fondness for vintage autos. People of all ages go all gaga eyed over my 38. Even more so when they hear it's a Cadillac.
Wait until the newly rich Chinese billions find out that they can get antique American cars on the cheap, so to speak. What I mean is, globalization is spreading the wealth.
Agreed.
Joe,how great it is when you find that old barn and save those rotting old parts to make your car complete.The hunt is frustrating, the find is almost always expensive but the feeling of driving a restored classic makes it all worth it.
Marty
Quote from: Jim Salmi #21340 on November 04, 2013, 11:53:32 AMThe nice thing about late '60s and early '70s Cads is that they have more modern creature comforts that the earlier "classics" lacked, like A/C, power accessories and the like, while still offering Cadillac styling cues we've come to love. Not excessively Naderized yet, and not burdened with the balky technological quirks that they started getting in the '80s. They are a good compromise, IMHO.
This is why I settled on 1968 to 1970 (and maybe a foray into a 1972 ElDorado convertible).
The 68 has the modern (for its day) 472, which is a much better engine than the 429. The brakes are dual cylinder master power. Many cars, even several 68 & 69, had only a single master cylinder (& several were not power assist either). There's also the shrouded mirrors, the padded dash & collapsible (sort of) steering column, Climate Control, power windows, seats, antenna, door locks, trunk, etc, that very few other makes had.
Disc brakes made their appearance at this time as well (started on the 1967 Eldorado, standard across the line by 1969), FM stereo radios (& 8-tracks!) came out at this time. The cars, especially Fleetwoods, had several interior lights (Broughams had about 9 interior lights) And one still had the nice big comfortable leather seats, and wood trim (in 1968 only).
Plus you had the full power high compression engines with fully adjustable carbs. This went away in 1971, and much more exterior plastic trim including the grille starting in 1972.
I want to drive my cars, and be assured that they will keep the road and stop reasonable quickly, and the late 60s through 70 are the ones for me.
Now can someone tell me when the prices for 1968-1970 corvettes will come back to sane levels? ???
Well - you can't drive around getting thumbs up in your ear buds, iPads or cell phones. ;D
I would agree with John, plus in newer cars it will be more difficult to work on them if you are doing it yourself.
In older cars for its maintenance, you just need to worry about a carburetor, distributor and brakes.
i have thought about this a bit,
the 70's car have some things working with them. they are to many the last truly iconic american cars.
one thing that matter also is how the car ages, and how it makes people feel,
when i drive my car people stops at what they where doing and stare at the car. people come running from across the street to see it and takes pictures of it. and people always say "thats a real caddy!" "they got so ugly after they stopped making this model" and things like this
1970s cars will eventually have their time in the collector spotlight, as will the 1980s, 1990s, etc. While there are always exceptions, I think the peak of the collector and classic car market audience especially for higher priced cars has tended to be dominated by those 55 to 70 years old. People eventually become nostalgic about things from their teens so cars that were new or popular when people 55 to 70 years old today were in their teens would be a period of about mid 1950s to mid 1970s with 1960s era presently being kind of the sweet spot or top of the bell curve.
i also do think that what car will become in the next years (decades) will have something to do with it, modern cars are bounded to getting lighter, smaller engines, less metal and more plastics, smaller even, i think old cars will start to get more interesting to more people, just for the fact of how different they are to what people call cars in that time,
if i take my car for an example again i often hear things like " imagen that this was sometimes just a regular car!" "people once drove things like that"
i think gasoline powered cars with metal bodies will be something people will miss when they are gone,
for the 70's car i do believe there time is coming, i am not at all trying to say that they will be equal to the iconic late 50's cars, few are, but they are hitting that time zone in there "life" that they have bin scrapped, used and beat on for so long that suddenly there arent as many around,
as far as i see you can get a fine example of a 71-74 eldorado like mine for something like 5k, that if you ask me is a joke for a true classic that have bin kept in good condition for 40 years, and has the biggest engine of them all. i hope they at least go over to the 10-20k range
Quote from: ericdev on November 16, 2013, 09:43:04 AM
The advantage of the later ('70s) models is that the factors of utility, reliability and relative ease of servicing are significantly improved. This should help to bolster values somewhat - particularly among owners less in a position to maintain their vehicles themselves.
Reliability? Ease of servicing? Not compared to a 1970 or a 68-69 model. About the only thing the 1971s & later had as an advantage was they can use unleaded regular. I'm stuck with 93 or higher and have to carefully set the timing and advance.
Mike , I just don't get why you think a 68 to 70 is easier to work on than a 78.
I run a 425, that is easy to work on. Runs great on regular gas. Doesn't have any computers in it for ignition. Just has the HEI distributor.
I just don't see why you think it is harder to work on. You get into the computer controlled cars, and up into the 90's, maybe.
Roy
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on December 06, 2013, 11:29:35 PM
Reliability? Ease of servicing? Not compared to a 1970 or a 68-69 model. About the only thing the 1971s & later had as an advantage was they can use unleaded regular. I'm stuck with 93 or higher and have to carefully set the timing and advance.
Quote from: Roy Schroeder on December 07, 2013, 08:54:38 AM
Mike , I just don't get why you think a 68 to 70 is easier to work on than a 78.
I run a 425, that is easy to work on. Runs great on regular gas. Doesn't have any computers in it for ignition. Just has the HEI distributor.
I just don't see why you think it is harder to work on. You get into the computer controlled cars, and up into the 90's, maybe.
Roy
Mike, the restyled 1977 model had been specifically designed for
simplified servicing in a number of key areas relative to their predecessors. My own mechanic agrees which coincides with my own experience as well.
Agreed with Roy - I cannot see why you feel 77-79 is so difficult to service.
Furthermore, ride quality, quietness, handling, interior space, overall comfort, weight reduction and fuel economy were also significantly improved in the late '70s models in addition to dramatic improvements in rust resistance. Styling was taut & clean and manages to look contemporary to this day.
Record production of 1977-1979 model years did not happen without good reason!
I feel collectors who ignore these cars are missing the boat.
Eric, Roy,
I can agree that that some servicing issues are made easier, like getting the # 7 plug out, and possibly the belts (I have a 1970 belt setup with only 3 belts). but 71 & later had non-adjustable carb idle mixture screws, and got increasingly more and more complicated pollution control devices on them which both strangled engine performance and made servicing more complicated.
HEI is great, but my P&C ignition is Very reliable, so I see that as a tossup, except for the expense of the HEI components when they need replacing.
The Climate control is probably less dependent on vacuum control, I can see that as a plus for the later cars.
My 1968 requires that the AC compressor at least be unbolted (not unsealed) to get the upper radiator hose off, so that is another minor improvement over the older gen 472s as well.
But overall, there is far less to have to contend with in a 1968-70 engine compartment.
I have adjustable idle screws on my carb. All you need do is pop the plastic caps off the carb, and you have the same adjusting screws. I think 79 they started with plugged off holes in that area.
I bought all spare N.O.S. parts for my HEI off Ebay for less than 75 bucks. Cap and rotor excluded. These parts are kept as spares.
I don't run a EGR valve. I run platinum plugs. My heat riser is in the open position ,and stays that way. A minute more to let it warm up.
My catalytic convertor has been neutered , if you get my drift.
Not much else to contend with on the engine. Carbon canister works fine. If it didn't it can be replaced.
I have a lot of room to work on most everything on my engine .
Gets 18 mpg. Runs smooth. Pulls 21-22 inches of vacuum steady at an idle.
You just cant get better than that.
There's a lot of misinformation regarding horespower ratings - which were overrated in a lot of cases prior to 1971.
Full story:
http://ateupwithmotor.com/terms-technology-definitions/gross-versus-net-horsepower/
Personally I've never found the 425 wanting for power. YMMV.
**BTW Roy - you have the bluest bolts I've seen in a long time.
Eric, I sent you some other pictures of low mileage cars with the blue bolts. Pretty hey ?
Roy