Hello everyone. Does anyone have a '37 LaSalle chassis that is bare ? I need to know what the distance between the front bumper brackets. Someone before me removed the brackets that are welded on the front frame horns. I would like to know the distance between the brackets as close as possible. Won't be hard to weld them back on but need to know exactly where to locate them. Thanks guys for any info... John Lehman... CLC# 26365....
John,I tried to help you a week or so back.You asked me about your problem in your comments about the pictures I posted of my project(37 LaSalle). I tried to reply to your questions but maybe I did't get it done properly,if you received my post and my info wasn't helpful maybe I can try again. I can very well understand if you we're just looking for more answers and info.Good luck, and let me know if I can do anything else.
Brady
John,
I too can give you that information when I'm back up in Chico where my frame resides. It will be about 5 days or so. Also, w/o looking at the frame, I'm a bit puzzled about what exactly the previous owner cut off. But maybe it will all come to me once it is in front of me. I know for certain that my frame has not been altered.
Mark Lowery, CLC#25216
I'm confused here too, my 37 Cadillac 60 series carries the same frame as the La Salle and there's no special brackets on the front of the frame that could be cut off. My bumper iron s fit right through the fender and bolt directly to the chassis. We need to see some pictures here!!
Hi Brady, Mark, and Steve. I wish I could do pics but my scanner/printer is acting up. On page # 24 in a '37 Cad-LaS manual shows the chassis. On the front end where the bumper arms bolt to shows a bracket on the inside of the frame rails. Both of my short inner brackets were cut off. The bumper arms fit against these and the bolts (2) are held by 2 blind nuts crimped on the outer frame rails. It's hard to describe my problem in words. I guess a picture is worth a 1000 words. Will make more sense when you can see a chassis. Thanks ... John Lehman... CLC# 26365...
Can you do a screen capture of the pages of the manual and then post them here? I have a 1938 manual but I am sure it is different. I'd like to see what you are talking about as well. If you have windows 7 use the snipping tool.
Here is a picture out of the 37 manual.
Are you talking about the parts indicated by the red arrows?
37 to 38 is when they stopped putting those brackets on. In 37 the manual shows the brackets only on the smaller series cars and the larger has none. In 38 all cars have none. What are the chances that your car is a later build and has none? Can you see the marks on the frame from where they are cut off? If indeed the brackets with the red arrows are what you are talking about.
If so, the bumper brackets mount to the outside of the frame, can you simply use nuts and bolts to hold the brackets in place? The spacing would be maintained. The captive nuts are not so important except if you want 100% authenticity.
Could it be your a little confused here John about just where the bumper irons bolt on? They actually attach to the outside of the frame, The brackets you seem to be referring to are just threaded reinforcing plates on the inside and the distance between them inside the two chassis arms is academic. I can give you this distance if you still want it but I think its just something like 1/2" plate with threaded hole the same centers as the bumper iron holes.
Joe, all the small series cars have this arrangement right through the years, my cars have it right up to 41 but its the larger series that are different, they have the chassis protruding through the fender and the bumper iron bolts into the chassis end.
My shop manual for 38 shows the chassis without and my car for sure doesn't have them. I've had the bumpers off twice in the last month while working on the car. I wonder why the difference?
Attached in this are the 37-50 frame and then dimensions for 37 and following three of the different non commercial frames for 38. I note the difference in the drawings.
Either way, John, the engineers don't even give that dimension as Steve correctly says, it is academic.
Joe, what does your car have if it doesn't have the reinforcing? just thicker steel at this point perhaps for the threaded holes?
My 38 manual shows the reinforcing plate, go figure.
Hi guys. I was right. I do need these brackets that should be on the inside of the frame rails. I put the bumper arms on the bumper and the distance between them is nowhere close to the manual's outside dimension of 32". Roughly 5" to wide for the arms. Also measured holes in the fenders and the brackets have to be used and installed on the inside of the frame rails. The bracket has blind nuts that are that are 5/8" fine thread, same as the rear bumper. The holes are 4" apart which match bumper arms. There are rust marks on the brackets where the arms are bolted on. The brackets are a formed piece, bent edges on the top and bottom to fit inside of frame. So, Steve if you can get me the measurement between the brackets, I would be grateful. Everyone, I appreciate your help especially in posting the shop manual pages. Again, guys, THANKS. John C. Lehman... CLC# 26365...
All these differences are very interesting to me. I will go out and take a closer look at my frame right now....
Ok took a look and it is as I remembered. The bumper brackets are mounted on the outside of the frame with large steel washers. No further reinforcements. When unbolted the brackets are clearly spring steel as they spring out at least 6 inches. To get them back on each time I put a rod through the holes and use clamps to pull them together and then remove the rod and insert the bolts.
Steve, my manual pages are from the 1937 Shop Manual and from the 1938 Shop Manual Supplement. Is there another Shop Manual for 1938 that I am not aware of?
Mine John is 32" the same as the List Joe posted. This is going to be a new one on me if true, the bumper irons fitting on the inside?? never seen that before.
If I took off my bumper and bolted the irons on first I would get a reading much different than the chassis measurement because there is all sorts of things happen to these two components over the 70 years of bumping etc. I always have to loosely bolt the irons in place, then loosely bolt the bumper on and even then it sometimes takes a heavy bar in the bolt holes to get them line up, so I don't think the fact that your measurements are way out from the chassis measurements necessarily mean much. I have 37, 38, and 1940 and they are all on the outside of the rails.
Hi guys. One last comment for the night. On the brackets that were removed, the hole pattern is exactly 4.00". This is the same hole pattern for the bumper arms. The holes in the frame sides are 3.500". There is no way the bumper brackets would fit on. Maybe I have an early or late model of manufacture. I'm giving up for a few days. Maybe someone else out there has the same set up as mine. Thanks a million, guys... John C. Lehman... CLC# 26365...
OK John, problem solved, I had a senior moment and stand corrected, totally my fault for not being thorough enough, the 37 was tight against a wall so I lazily did my checking on the other cars assuming they all must be the same, big mistake as the 37 is a one year only fitting regarding the front bumper, dragged it out this morning and not only does it have the brackets but as you say the irons fit on the inside. The measurement you require is 27 & 1/2" between the brackets. On the other years the chassis is thicker at this point and threaded for the bolts with the irons on the outside.
Thanks Steve for the dimension. I gave my problem some more thought. The '37 LaSalle has a narrow grill and a grill shell to fit it. The model 60 Cadillac had a wider grill and shell. To better locate the bumper arm holes in the fenders in the model 60 to accommodate the wider grill, the fender holes had to be set farther apart. So the outside of the frame was used with brackets that were made for the model 60 Cadillac only. If you look at 1938 models the Cad & LaS have wider grills. And there was no need for brackets on the inside of the frame rails. This is all my opinion and nothing really to back me up. The chassis for the 1937 LaSalle and the model 60 Cadillac were made to fit either model. The LaSalle used the inside brackets to mount the bumper arms and the model 60 used the outside of the frame rails to mount the bumper arms. Thanks to everyone for all your help... John C. Lehman... CLC# 26365...
Sorry to blow your theory John, Mine is a Cadillac model 60 and the irons mount to the inside!!
John,
I'm up here in Chico CA and took a look at the bare frame for my 37 LaSalle, model 5017 and indeed there are brackets that are welded to the inside of the frame horns. The clear distance between them is indeed 27-1/2". I'll take a picture tomorrow and send to you via PM. They are as you described w/ captive nuts crimped into the bracket. In other words, the brackets are fastened w/ bolts, but the "nuts" do not turn being crimped into the brackets. The brackets are about net w/ the front of the frame rails (horns) but I'll double check that tomorrow. If you can see the remnants of the welds, that should be a clue as to where the brackets should be positioned.
I'll also give you the length of the welds, two on the top, and I believe two on the bottom of the bracket. The cadillac mounting system may well be different as has been pointed out by others due to the difference in the width of the grille.
Mark Lowery, CLC #25216
Thanks Mark for verifying the 27 1/2 " dimension. Looking forward to any pics you send... Thanks... John Lehman... CLC# 26365...
John,
I've sent you a PM to the Email address listed in the new directory. Verify that you have received the four attached photos at that address, and I'll bore you w/ a more detailed description. Most importantly, there is only one weld on the top flange, and likewise, one weld on the bottom. But what I was really forgetting is that there is a hefty rivet through the bracket (got to come up w/ a different name for this piece!) where it overlaps the frame rail. One through the top, and one through the bottom. Either the rivet should be in place on your frame, or at the very least, a hole for each.
Mark Lowery, CLC#25216
Mark,
I see you're in Chico now. Any chance you could drive up The hill & look at that 41 Cad 63 series in Magalia? I'm personally not interested, but someone on the board might be. Just an idea.
Bob
Bob,
Damn, Damn, Damn! Just came back to WC yesterday, so won't be up there for a few more weeks.
Send me a PM around December 14th if it is still something you'd like me to look at. A side trip up to Magalia is always fun.
Mark Lowery, CLC #25216
Hello everyone. No, Mark Lowery, I did not receive the photos. There are holes in the bumper arm brackets. Will make a spacer 27 1/2" long to bolt the brackets together in order to keep the right space. Again, thanks to everyone who chimed in on my problem... John C. Lehman... CLC# 26365...
John,
Hmmmmmm. My regular computer, a Macbook is down for the time being. So the photos were sent from my wife's IPad which I find most mysterious. Sent them to the Email address that is listed in the directory that starts out; Beckleyralston.......... So is this the proper address where you would see them? I'm a bit of a Luddite when it comes to things digital, so that is why I'm not posting the photos in the Forum.
It is good that you can see the holes where the rivets where originally placed. If the brackets that attach to the frame were carefully removed, your problems are over. The fact that the brackets were both riveted and welded indicates that Cadillac was using a "belts & suspenders" approach to a component that they considered fairly important.
The other thing the photos will show (once I get them to you!) is that the brackets were not net w/ the front end of the frame rails as I said earlier. Rather, they are set back about 3/4", but the shape of the bracket is not very square, so I'm looking at the furthest forward projection of the bracket and measuring from the most forward portion of the frame rail.
Feel free to send me a PM if that will clarify the Email address that I should be sending the photos to.
Mark Lowery CLC #25216
Hi Mark. That's my email address. Hopefully when I get around to doing the brackets, they will bolt in to the rivet holes. Looking forward to seeing your photos. Thanks... John C. Lehman... CLC# 26365...