I have never cared for automatic transmissions. Even though the modern computer controlled ones work fairly well, I just do not enjoy the process of driving such a "transportation module."
One of the things that has always stopped me from buying postwar cars is the lack of manual gearboxes. When did Cadillac last offer a standard transmission? Are they tough to find?
Vintage Paul, still swappin cogs . . .
Well, technically you can buy a new Cadillac and get a standard. The last manual was in the Series 75 sedans and limousines and the 86 series commercial chassis from around 1952. I have to check the books for the exact year but I'm sure somebody will beat me to it.
Last year for manual transmission was 1951 on standard series Cadillacs; 1952 on Series 75.
I do know of at least one case in which a woman specially ordered a stick shift Cadillac - either on a 1952 or 1953.
Standard shift wouldn't again be available on a Cadillac product until 1982 - on Cimarron.
I knew you would have the answer. What's a Cimarron? :o
Thanks guys! How common or uncommon are post war Caddies with a manual transmission? Was overdrive needed as it was on many other makes? Does a car equipped with a manual command a higher or suffer a lower price compared to its autobox brethren?
Vintage Paul, droolin over that '50 Caddie Coupe in the for sale section . . .
I would say that as the reliability of the HydraMatic improved and was proven to be the best automatic on the market--even Lincoln and Rolls-Royce used them--that the popularity of standards fell way off. A luxury car that does everything for you but shift gears during the gadget-crazy '50's just wasn't going to fly. When the HydraMatic plant burned in '53, Cadillac had to rely on Buick's DynaFlows to meet demand, not manual gearboxes. By '54, all Cadillacs came with automatic transmissions.
Shifting cogs had no romance for most motorists who just wanted to get to work with as little trauma as possible. I knew a guy who was in high school right after the war. He said they used to cruise the town starting in first gear and going right into high - not using second gear at all! An autobox is a natural for folks like this.
I like to put the gearbox in the gear I think it should be in rather than let the trans make the choice. I still like manual chokes too . . .
Vintage Paul
Quote from: hudson29 on March 19, 2014, 03:02:05 PM
Thanks guys! How common or uncommon are post war Caddies with a manual transmission? Was overdrive needed as it was on many other makes? Does a car equipped with a manual command a higher or suffer a lower price compared to its autobox brethren?
Vintage Paul, droolin over that '50 Caddie Coupe in the for sale section . . .
As Walter has mentioned, manual transmission would have been antithetic to everything Cadillac stood for - especially at the time when the Cadillac name had been synonymous the latest technological advancement.
Approximately 30% of 1941 Cadillacs were ordered with Hydramatic - the first year. By 1947 the figure had swelled to 92%, so to answer your question, the answer would be yes, a manual transmission in a postwar Cadillac is quite rare.
Other than a curiosity item, I don't feel that a manual transmission contributes much to the value of a postwar Cadillac, if at all.
2014 Cadillacs are available with six speed manual transmissions, if you select the 556 hp CTS-V model, or if you select an ATS with the Turbo 4 cylinder, and maybe in some of the 2014 CTS models, not sure about that,
In 1953 the Series 75 was last available with the three speed manual transmission. The 1950-51 Series 61 cars could be ordered with a manual transmission. Some 1950 cars exist, and I would be interested to learn if any 1951 Series 61 cars with a factory-installed manual exist.
Bob Schuman, CLC#254
I forgot to mention that the 2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V was built ONLY with a six speed Tremec manual transmission. While I owned one, it frequently amazed people to learn that Cadillac was offering a new car that was not available with an automatic transmission. They wanted potential purchasers to know that this was not the same type of car that the upper-priced Cadillacs of the past had been.
Bob Schuman
Here's an older CLC thread on the subject.
http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=93984.0
It seems there's often some confusion whenever this subject is raised. My source claims 1953 Series 75 was standard with either Dynaflow Automatic or Hydramatic.
Anybody have the Master Parts Book for 1953?
Well, I guess that pretty well puts PAID to that issue. Few Caddies were made after the war without the autobox. I can't recall having ever seen one. I imagine Buick would be about the same story?
Vintage Paul
Quote from: hudson29 on March 19, 2014, 06:20:35 PM
Well, I guess that pretty well puts PAID to that issue. Few Caddies were made after the war without the autobox. I can't recall having ever seen one. I imagine Buick would be about the same story?
Vintage Paul
No, Buick offered standard transmissions in almost all cars until 1978. After that, the X car did too. A three-on-the-tree was standard on all but Electra, including Wildcat, LeSabre, Skylark all through the '60's and into the 70's. Got a 1966 Wildcat GS Convertible, 425 dual-quad Nailhead with a 4-speed? You have the holy grail.
For what it's worth, I have seen three postwar Cadillacs with standard shift. One was a 1950 ambulance I saw in a junkyard about thirty years ago. I also saw a 51-61 sedan with standard shift in a different yard at about the same time.
At the 2008 Grand National, there was a 1949 Cadillac Series 61 club coupe with standard shift and a radio delete. The car also had the non-deluxe steering wheel, the only one I have ever seen after WWII.
Personally, given the choice, I would prefer a stick shift Caddy. In my opinion, the right customer would pay a premium for one over a Hydramatic car.
I originally posted this info in a 2007 thread on this topic based on some research I did on stick shift Cads in the early Hydramatic era for a 2004 Self Starter article. Here is an update:
1949 was the last year a manual transmission was standard equipment on all Cadillac models with Hydra-matic being an extra-cost option.
Beginning in 1950, Hydra-matic was standard equipment on Series 60 and 62, with stick shift only available on Series 61, Series 75 (limos) and Commercial Chassis vehicles (hearses, etc.). Beginning in 1952, Hydra-matic was standard equipment on all except Series 75 limousines and Commercial Chassis vehicles. From 1954 Hydra-matic was standard equipment on all Series and, excepting the Cimarron, all Cadillacs had automatic transmissions until the CTS was introduced in 2002.
In 49 about 3.5% of Cadillacs of all models were bought with stick shift. In 50 and 51 it was about 2%. I could not find any data for 52. Erstwhile Self Starter Technical Editor Matt Larson did some research on 53 Cadillacs and found that 19 passenger cars, some special ordered and some Series 75, were bought with stick, as were about 1,000 Commercial Chassis vehicles (about half of those made), totaling less than 1% of all Cadillacs made that year.
BTW: I think it was my '49 that Alan Harris saw at the '08 Grand National. I prefer them with stick shift too; reason 1 being they are more fun to drive and reason 2 is that I can fix it myself.
Jay-I am glad to find out that that was your car I saw. It really is very nice and also quite unique.
I agree with you about stick shifts being more fun to drive. I really enjoy driving my 1940 LaSalle because it is the only car I own that I get to shift.
Alan, Actually, my car's transmission is not that unique. I'm aware of a dozen or so '49 Cadillacs with stick shift and there must be some more out there.
Buick offered the 4-speed transmission on the Wildcat and LeSabre only from 1963-1965. I recently saw a picture of the Buick GS Nationals show where the owner of a '66 Wildcat GS installed a 4-speed from an intermediate Buick. Almost anything was possible in those days before emissions and standard option packages if you knew how to circumvent the standard ordering process. Oldsmobile offered a 4-speed on the Starfire, Jetstar 1, and 88 series from 1964-1966. Pontiac had it on their full-sized cars from 1960-1968, while Chevy had it from 1959-1969. Cadillac was the only GM division not to offer it in the 1960s.
I've always like some of the post war Buicks in the '46 to '53 range. How common was the standard trans in these? Were they sold in the same low percentages that held for Cadillacs of the era?
Vintage Paul
Buick didn't introduce Dynaflow until 1948, and then only on the Roadmaster series. It was offered on all series beginning in '49 and from then on it was standard equipment on Roadmasters. Once Dynaflow was introduced very few Buicks had stick shift. I don't know of any data on this but my impression is that while I've only seen a few over the years it is a slightly higher percentage than Cadillac. My high school's driver's ed car in the mid-'50s was a '56 Special with 3-speed column shift and a college classmate of mine had a '59 LeSabre with the same. Every once in a while there is a '50s Buick with stick shift for sale in Hemmings.
A few years ago I saw a stock 1971 LeSabre sedan with a 350 and a 3-on-the-tree for sale in the Buick Bugle. I bet that is one rare car.
-mB
My late father in law was a curmudgeonly type who vowed that he would only buy an automatic transmission once they were perfected. He once told me that when he was ready to trade up from a 1950 Ford, he wanted to go to a 1955 Buick or Olds, but only if he could get a manual transmission.
He said that none of the Buick or Oldsmobile dealers wanted to order a stick shift car because they were afraid of being stuck with it. They all wanted a very hefty deposit on the order. He ended up buying a V-8 1955 Chevy Belair because only the Chevy dealer wanted to order a stick shift car.
He eventually had 1960 and 1965 Impalas with stick shifts. Finally, for his 1970 Caprice, he finally relented and bought an automatic. He had to have been one of the last holdouts.
Does anyone remember that great picture made around 1948 called DOA (Dead On Arrival)? It is one of my all time favorite pictures and I have seen it many times. The bad guys are riding around in a big Buick convertible of some sort. I think the movie car probably had an autobox of some sort. There is a scene showing the foot pedals that would seem to suggest this. Whatever year and model that Buick was it would sure be great with a standard transmission.
I seem to remember someone mentioning one time that Buick, like so many other makers, undergeared their cars and that they need an overdrive to maintain modern highway speeds. Is this true? I still marvel at my 75 year old Caddie which just whispers along at 70 mph in high gear. No OD needed!
Vintage Paul
HM was designed by, or early credit was given to, Oldsmobile. Introducing it for the 1941 Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles showed GM's faith in the product. Generally, new gadgets were tested out as options on Olds or other makes before being available on Cadillacs so as to not stain the Cadillac name if it wasn't perfected or desirable. Then the War came. HMs were used in Cadillac's M24 tanks. That transmission was beat to hell by thousands of GIs. The bugs were being worked out of them during the War. When these veterans came home, many were very familiar with the reliability of the HM AND Cadillac engines, further cementing Cadillac's position as not only a luxury car but a true quality piece of machinery. The "Dream Car of 40,000,000" in the '50's was more than skin-deep tailfins and power windows.
Hydra-matic was actually introduced in 1940 on Oldsmobiles and only on Cadillacs in '41 after it was proven to be reliable on Oldsmobiles as Walter mentioned.
I sold my stick '49 series 62 fastback about 30 years ago to a good friend-he still has it. It had JEN-YOU-WINE Tijuana non-automotive upholstery and a mediocre black paint job ( I found Mexican chewing gum wrappers behind a rear side panel when I rewired it for him-confirming the source of the upholstery).
I think he may be ready to sell-still with the same paint and upholstery BUT major chassis changes. e.g Rack and Pinion power steering, 4-wheel power (?)disc brakes, genuine knock-off wire wheels, a modified 54 engine with dual-fours, Mallory, etc and a Ford 9-inch rear. Still has the stick trans, though.
He told me once he "might" take $25K for it, but after 30 years there's still an attachment.
He doesn't know that I am hawking his ride for him, but if anyone might be interested in it, I'll pass on the info.
Mike Simmons (938)
PS-His wife is the only computer user in his house- so you can't eMail him, unfortunately.
Some years ago, I was looking at a friend's literature collection. He showed me two large prestige sales brochures for the 1941 Cadillac, and challenged me to find the difference between them. I looked at both books, and turned page after page in each one, but they appeared identical. Then he told me to look at the last page where the specifications were given in fine print. In one of the sales brochures, under the heading "transmission", it stated "three-speed synchro-mesh". In the other brochure, under the same heading, it said "three-speed synchro-mesh; Hydramatic transmission available at additional cost". The brochure that did not mention Hydramatic had a printing date that was a few months earlier than the other brochure.
Based on that discovery, I believe Hydramatic was not available on Cadillacs when the 1941 model year first began, but became available sometime during the model year. Can anyone confirm whether this is correct?
On a separate note, another friend bought a 1959 Buick LeSabre convertible with a 3-speed manual transmission from the estate of the original owner. The original owner's brother recalled that the local Buick dealer, a friend of the family, had tried to talk his brother out of ordering the car with a manual transmission. The dealer pointed out that whatever cost savings could be realized from buying the car without Dynaflow would be more than offset by the loss in resale value whenever the car was traded in, as no one would want a car like that with a 3-speed manual shift. The dealer was so concerned about selling his friend a car that would be unsalable later on that he offered to sell him a similar car with Dynaflow, and delete the extra charge for the Dynaflow. But the original owner was stubborn, and insisted that the car be ordered exactly as he wanted it.
I would guess that a similar scenario occurred anytime a medium-priced or high-priced car was ordered with a 3-speed column shift transmission years after an automatic transmission had become available.
Richard,
I've "heard" or read somewhere that, as you wrote, Cadillac didn't offer Hydra-matic until some months into the '41 model year, but, I can't remember where so can't confirm it. One of the '41 experts in the club must know.
In an earlier posting in this thread I mentioned that a college (Florida State U.) classmate of mine bought a brand new '59 Buick LeSabre convertible with a manual transmission. There couldn't have been too many of these made so I'm wondering if by some coincidence it's the same one your friend had. I can't remember my classmate's name but I, of course, remember the car well which was grey in color and would have been sold new in Tallahassee, Florida or thereabouts.
My Justin Hartley repro 41 Data Book (dated 9-13-40 on every page) makes no mention of hydramatic anywhere. This seems to back up the contention that the hydramatic was probably not initially available .
Mike Simmons 938
Page 44 in the book Cadillacs of the Forties by Roy Schneider and his discussion of the 41 Cadillac it states" In March the factory publicly announced the Hydra-matic, a revolutionary and mostly Cadillac engineered, fully automatic transmission" The book goes on to say" A factory press release on March 1, stated " To date only a limited number of cars were equipped with the new drive system and currently approximately 50 percent of Cadillacs` production carries the new automatic shift"
Production of the 41 probably started sometime in Sept 1940 as Schneider goes on to say that dealers had the 41 in their showrooms on Oct 1 so it looks like 5-6 months into the 41 production before the hydra-matic was available to the public.
Bill
Bill & others,
I feel that Roy is incorrect on that date. And I've always thought that. I just looked a some of my 41 invoices. Ones for cars shipped in Nov. & earlier have no "T" code in the lower RH for option codes. The ones dated Dec. & later do. So... Hydros were offered in Dec. or possible late Nov. Anyone have some invoices in that time frame? Maybe we can get closer on a date.
Bob