I am seriously considering buying a '59 Caddy Biarritz. I am 63 and think that it is time to indulge a bit. Obviously, this is a big investment and I don't want to get skinned. I am looking at it both as a fun car to drive on weekends and an investment. To make sure I am not overpaying, what should I be looking for? Please be detailed and specific.
Also, this is the information on a Fisher Body Plate: Style: 59-6467
Body FW ? 625 ?
Trim 11B ? Paint 90?
OP 1B Acc. EH ???
I know what the Style means, but what does the rest mean?
Thanks!
B. Stewart
that is an Olympic white black bucket seat car,I would suggest a very detailed close up professional examination of that vehicle,it has been around a bit
The car is white with white bucket seats. Whom should I get to look at it?
The car is in Birmingham Ala. I am in California.
I am not ready to buy it tomorrow- just doing my research.
They were asking $199,000- price lowered to $165,000- still a whole lot of money.
They are advertising A/C but I don't see the A/C.
I don't think they know what it has.
Not very professional if you ask me.
If the car would be a good investment is the only way that I could justify such a high price.
Which is why I cannot overpay.
Here is a car that I am checking out:
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/cadillac/eldorado_biarritz/1649123.html
What do you think?
Hello B. Stewart
Welcome to the Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forum.
I would suggest the following BEFORE acquisition:
(1) Join the CLC National organization and a region near your residence
(2) Attend and participate in your local region meetings and events with an inquisitive friendly persona
(3) Attach your ear to the individuals that have own or have experience with the model you desire
(4) Read Cadillacs of the Fifties by Roy Schneider
(5) Honestly assess your skill level and finances versus the purchase, maintenance, and operating costs.
Be a conscientious buyer by doing your own homework. To achieve one of your lifelong goals of possessing this Cadillac should not frustrate and ruin the remaining days of your life. We exist to assist.
That car did not come with A/C out of the factory according to the body tag.
Thank you CR. I appreciate your assistance. It looks like you a re heading me in the right direction.
I live in Orange County, Ca. Laguna Niguel, to be exact. Is there a chapter nearby?
Also, although I do consider the Caddy a nice reward for a successful life, I would not want to spend an outrageous amount on maintenance and operating costs.
It would be a fun weekend car and a car to show at informal car shows occasionally. I seriously doubt if I will get into showing at Pebble Beach Concours and winning the 100 point trophy- but who knows? I guess it could happen- but I doubt it.
Thanks again!
B. Stewart
Thank you, Coupe De Ville. Can you tell me anything else from the Body Tag?
B. Stewart
C.R.,
I just checked out Schneider's book on the 50s Cadillacs on Amazon. $220 for a used book? REALLY???
I am hoping that if I join your club you will have it in your library for lending to members for a reasonable charge.
B. Stewart
Letter E is tinted glass, and H is heater.
Mr. Stewart
This is not a hobby for the poor or timid but the conscientious.
The Cadillacs of the Fifties is written by CLC Member Roy Schneider. He is an incomparable author of numerous automtive books. This gentleman painstakingly completed research on ALL of the Cadillac models for that DECADE so you and I can absorb.
The reason for the price is twofold. It is out of print and in demand.
I hope this information dissipates your trepidation to purchase and increase your knowledge. The vehicle you have chosen is a fine example of the Standard of the World. As a graduate of the University of Southern California I can testify that spending good money to learn is money well spent.
There are other automobile brands with bad quality and inexpensive products that may be commiserate to your objectives.
In the ad it states TMU=true miles unknown, the body tag has been replaced with incorrect rivets
Car comes from the east coast,so you will need to know you way around paint and bodywork to judge quality of work that has been done
C.R, I strongly disagree with you statement that this is not a hobby for the poor. This hobby has room for ALL. not just the rich and famous. I have several Cadillac books and would never consider spending that kind of money on one, I understand the time and effort that went into its construction however that would be money I could place else where. Perhaps a authenticity manual would be a good purchase to start with so Mr. Stewart could be sure what he looks at is Authentic. And maybe it is more in the budget. Or even a less expensive 59 book, I am sure there are others on the market. One can enjoy the hobby more if they stay within their means.
Sheldon Hay
C.R.,
I am far from "poor" ...LOL. But spending $220 for a book is like spending $5 for a stick of chewing gum. Maybe you can afford it- but WOWIE!!!! I drive a Mercedes SL65 AMG as my daily driver. If I can afford to maintain it, I think that I can afford to maintain the Caddy.
Anyway, if the book is not available in any library, I very well may decide to purchase a copy. But if I can even look at the book in a library long enough to photocopy the proper pages, that would be preferable.
Perhaps my enthusiasm is not up to your standards yet, C.R., but I am just a newbie after all.
B. Stewart
Smedley,
Thank you for your down-to-earth comments.
B. Stewart
there is nothing in the book that will help you,post your questions here after researching every know survivor over the last 35 years, I can answer any questions you may have
Here's my 2 cents. Find the right car for the right money. The right car is going to be a lot more expensive than one of lesser quality. I highly suggest you buy the car in a completed and restored condition. Finding (the right) parts is tough, time consuming and expensive. You do have to do your homework (or align yourself with someone very knowledgeable or a find a very reputable dealer) to know what you're looking at. That's where books come in or join the local Cadillac club and immerse yourself with others who have made the journey you are about to embark on. Absorb all they have to offer and ask questions. I posted many questions on several websites and got a lot of help. I purchased an owners manual and factory service manual even before buying the car I was looking for. The owners manual was especially helpful. So I think the idea is to have a period of "gathering knowledge" to "know what you're looking at" and then when the time is right, "pull the trigger" and enjoy the ride!
As said earlier, the data plate has the incorrect rivets (I had no idea), but why was the data plate removed? Is that normal for it to be removed during a restoration or is something else going on? Does the car have all the correct parts? If it were me, my must have options would be cruise control and air conditioning. Even though it's a top down car, it's nice to have it and it is more desirable than a non a/c car (my opinion). Cruise control would be for the road trips!
I have always liked the 1960 convertible, but couldn't afford one. I settled for a 1970 convertible. I looked for more than a year for the right one. I flew a thousand miles to personally inspect it to be sure it was as represented. I ended up buying it. It was the right color, had the right options I wanted and was in relatively good condition (I ended up going through the engine and put another $10k or so in it). By doing my homework and being patient, I found a car that wasn't butchered up or pieced together or missing parts. As old as these cars are, and as many hands as they pass through, there is a lot of opportunity to have stuff altered, which is not good.
I bought Schneider's book on "Cadillacs of the Sixties" just because the '69 is very close to a '70. The book has tons of black and white pictures and lots of information about options and provides details on each model for a particular year. It's not a book you'll sit down and read from cover to cover, it's more of a reference book. There is no real text to read, but lots of pictures (3 to 6 pictures per page along with a caption for each picture). No paragraphs, just tons of captions and pictures (at least the Cadillac of the Sixties book). I ponied up around $90.00 for my book.
So there ya go. Best of luck to you on your quest, half the fun is the hunt. And it's a journey, not a destination!
chris.
I have all three books that Roy did. Yes, there is great information there, but basically these books have the same technical info that can be found in the sales literature and dealer data books for each year. If you spend enough time on the web, using google, you can get the information.
There is a lot of knowledge here, and Bill Refakis is an expert on the 59.
By the way, if the trim tag was removed and put on a different cowl with incorrect rivets, the car might be rebodied. The frame number and the engine number as well as the trim tag have to be scrutinized in order to make sure that this or any car is actually an Eldorado.
Get any car you are considering inspected by someone who knows the car. Better to spend $500.00 on a proper inspection than risk getting stuck with a bad car.
Brian
Wrefakis,
Could the body tag have been removed in preparation for painting and perhaps reattached with new and improper rivets?
By the way, these sellers never got back to me with the answers to my questions as promised. I think they are rather unprofessional. After all, they seemed not to know that their car does not have A/C. Even I could figure that out and I am only now becoming acquainted with the car.
I looked at a '59 Eldo Biarritz at a broker's warehouse in Costa Mesa. The broker showed me where the vin number was stamped low in the engine compartment but the numbers were badly worn and not entirely discernible. Seems odd..... I mean..... what would make the numbers wear down in a non-friction environment under the hood?
I have come to the conclusion that it is very easy to get fooled in my quest. I would rather pay a bit more and get a car that has proper documentation. I saw a green one that looked like a "one" but they want $220,000. Seems a bit pricey and I am not all that fond of green anyway (the perfect white interior helped, though).
Guys,
Please provide information on the time and place regarding the closest meeting spot to Laguna Niguel, Ca.(south Orange County).
Thanks!
B. Stewart
Chris,
The 1970 Caddy is just about the most beautiful car ever produced in my estimation. If I were going for beauty, I would get the '69 or '70- Especially the front end- an absolute work of art. But I wanted to go for flamboyance. If I had room in my garage, I'd go for beauty too. But we have three Mercedes' and a truck and the truck sits out because we only have a three car garage. If I get the Caddy, I will garage it and leave my Mercedes outside- but covered. Wish I had more room.
Anyway, what made you decide for the '70 over the '69? As a collector, I would have thought it might be best to go for the first year of the body style.
I have Schneider's book (the three of them indeed) that I purchased 15 years ago for about $30-40 each when they were still on print (1996 edition).
The people selling them for $220 now are just making money from steady demand on these out-of-print books - they are great but not worth this amount. The 1950s one contains at most 10 pages more or less related to the 1959 Biarritz, so it won't be too useful to you. Due to copyright regulations, I cannot propose you to send you scans - therefore I won't >:D .
[By the way, I guess I can legally scan my books for myself, waiting for next reprint, and sell the books for $200 each, should anyone be interested ;D ]
Plus, the 1950s and 1960s books by Schneider are mostly black & white facsimilés of the factory data books. If you really want to spend money on a book, get an original 1959 data book - not easy to find, often not cheap (much more than $200 for a good copy), but at least period correct and factory produced, a must-have for an Eldorado Biarritz owner. And this one will never be reprinted by the editor ;) .
Trust chance, too : I found a 1952 data book 2 years ago for $35 in a CA antique shop, most on eBay are more than $100.
EDIT : oh, there is currently a copy of Schneider's book on eBay. Starting bid is low but there is a (unknown) reserve price. Look for "illustrated guide", "Cadillac" and "1950-1959 motor cars".
Mr. Stewart
I like the energy and time that you are investing to find the "right car". I will pay for your first year CLC National and region dues in the Socal or San Diego Chapter. Both of these groups have great knowledgeable people with beautiful cars. Moreover they are honest and possess some of the finest examples of the Standard of World.
If you comply and buy a 1959 Biarritz I will give you one of my Schneider book's.
1970 was always my favorite car next to 59 Biarritz,for 25 years I owned the last one off the line all original,5800 miles,bought from original owner a distant relation to the founder of Cadillac located to this day in the same town as well.
Again,these collector car dealers can and do make every wild claim they please,and none of this is true.
NO 1 no one on earth other than myself can tell you how many cars were ordered in a non standard color,the records do not exist
NO 2 99 bucket seats produced is a yard tale that evolved from 99 ELDO BROUGHAMS produced,bucket seat cars were right around 38% of production,and of the 99 produced,there are more than that known to have survived
NO 3 cowl tag off for restoration? zero chance if not to rebody,even the rusty hulks do not rot thru in that spot,but even in the event that you took it off so the shop would not steal it,would you not,after spending all these $$$ get the rivets that are very close to correct for the couple of $$ they cost,if not,then how much care and detail went in to your project?
We are still in the internet cheap money market right now,so all these glued together no 3 drivers are being hustled for $$$ that white one has gone thru at least 5 dealers since I looked at it in 98, same for the green one
ask these guys to produce any documentation for any of the claims they make,and listen for the dial tone
bottom line guys buy new mb s550 for 105k,trade it 2 years out for 60,if you want to drive one(59) do not even look at all this,it takes years to learn about these cars,just pay around 100-110,drive it and when you are tired of it put on internet,you will be fine
Don't buy a car you have not seen and driven. For that kind of money rich or poor, go look at the car and drive it. Spend hours with it. It should drive beautifully. No "oh this is typical of an old car" excuses. My Grandmother drove Cadillacs from 1961 thru 1989 and she loved them. You will find issues. If it creaks around corners, the a/c does not work, the body panels don't line up, hard to start, warmed up before you get there, it may be a 50k car. Strongly recommend seeing and driving any car you consider buying, spending hours doing it.
On the rich/poor thing, yes the hobby has room for all. The cars bring us all together.
Thanks and hope you join us,
Scot
C. R.,
Thank you for the generous offer but, although thrifty at times, I prefer to pay my own way. I think that the "free ride" mentality is becoming just a bit too pervasive in our culture lately, and I would not want to add to the fervor.
I presume that joining your club will not break the bank- although I have no idea what the cost will be.
I do appreciate all of the friendly advice that everyone is willing to share and I respect Mr. Ruel's adherence to copyright laws. It shows a depth of integrity not often found (especially among our lawmakers ;)).
Anyway, thanks again.
Wrefakis,
I found your advice very interesting. You are recommending paying $110,000 tops. That would seem to put me down at the low end of asking prices.
So, I take it that you would not expect to get an automobile in near pristine condition, but rather more of a daily driver. I can deal with a car that is not near perfect, but I am still not up for getting a car that is kind of cobbled together (wrong hud caps, wrong seats, etc.).
My understanding is that complete restoration is far more expensive than getting a car already restored- so I would want a car that has either been restored or is in very good original condition.
Can I get such a '59 Eldo Biarritz for $110,000 or less?
G,day CR, hey if Mr Stewart does by a 59 Eldo, and doesn't want the membership or the book, I have no problem for you to pay my membership and send me the book. Is the book in excellent condition? I hate dog ears and coffee cup stains.
As a former 59 Biarritz owner I have read all these posts with interest. Finding a low mile , known history car is fine . . . but also part of the hobby is to resurrect those less fortunate beasts that have hada hard life to their former glory. I've been involved in several Eldo restos and have found that nearly every car deteriorates in the same way. Even rust free , low mile, unrestored survivors will have needed constant upkeep to maintain their condition. Sometimes it is better to start with a lesser car that you can restore to a high level that start with a better car that you are afraid to pull down.
These days I get more pleasure from restoring /repairing than going to shows. No matter how good or bad your car is , you have to have a thick skin to take all the bloody experts who want to highlight all the minuscule faults that you may or may not be already aware of. Horses for courses.
Either way a 59 Biarritz in any condition still raises my heartbeat.
Mr. Hall,
Thank you for your comments, but from what I have gleaned so far, restoration would take a lot of patience and a lot of money. I don't have a lot of patience and if I can buy a restored car for less than the restoration would cost, that is the way that I would want to go.
I am very leery of getting into a project where I am tearing my hair out. I want this to be a pleasant experience and not an exercise in frustration.
If I can buy I car that is already 95% there, then I can have the joy without a lot of headache.
Restoration is a labor of love and if you love it, that's great. I just don't think it's for me.
Rereading some comments and offer some responses to them:
1. Incorrect rivets anchoring VIN to body of car is a major issue because it could have started life as a series 62 with Eldorado trim items added. There would have to be a great explanation for that mistake. Plus frankly the use of wrong rivets indicates a lack of attention to an important detail, and where else were corners cut? Evidence of former air ride suspension if abandoned should be shown. Also, if there is not air ride suspension, then that lowers value.
2. On the 1970/1969 Cadillacs, yes I have three 1970 Cadillacs and prefer the 70 over 69 because of the rear tail lights, front marker lights, non-rim blow horn, higher/modern rear differential (2.93 vs. 3.23, and with inspection opening-first year), and improved front suspension (same from 1970 thru 1976). Although the 1970 has an automatic timing retard in 1st and 2nd gear whereas the 1969 does not, it is easily disabled without losing points for authenticity. The 1969 Fleetwood upholstery pattern (triple tufted rear back on Brougham) is nicer than the 1970.
The least expensive collector car you will buy including sorting everything out after purchase if you are looking for a near perfect example will be the one that is as original(with low mileage issues corrected-fuel tank etc.) and/or well restored as possible. Buy the nicest at the fairest price you can afford.
By the way, if you drive for any distance during nice weather with top down black is too hot for an interior. When I drove to GN in NY and back this year in my 1970 Convertible, black would have been uncomfortable. Some don't drive much with top down or at night and then it is OK. My a/c works, just bought a convertible to drive top down and enjoy a lot-4k miles per year or so.
Personally, I could handle the wrong rivets. If it is a nice eldo you are looking for, To me that one looks like a nice eldo. I personally could not care less what the rivets look like or why they were changed. I would drive that car and enjoy every minute of it. ( if I could afford to spend that kind of money on a car that is, Which I can not, which is why I have a $1000 46' series 62. and why I did not mind adding electric fans and converting to a alternator, welding the rear fenders to the body to solve rusted out flanges. Flat black paint so if a kid hits it with a bicycle or an old lady bumps it with a sopping cart it wont cause me to have a heart attack.
My point is if you find a car you like and the price wont break your bank account, and you can see yourself loving to drive it ::), Buy it, and start driving it. I don't understand why authenticity is always put before having fun.
Sheldon Hay
Thank you all so much for replying. I appreciate all of your comments.
Here is a car with supposedly 22,000 original miles.
They say it is unrestored but the seats look fairly new. The hub caps are wrong, for starters and there is no parade boot but this may be no big deal. Still, I find it hard to get past the red interior which I really do not like all that much. Red and white is okay- but solid red?
This may be a great deal, particularly if the claims are true (low miles matching numbers), but the interior color turns me off. I would much prefer a white interior/ white and black interior with a white car. I am willing to accept any exterior color if the combination is right.
What do you think? Am I being silly? Should I ignore the all red interior for the bigger objective and make further inquiries?
Who knows,? Maybe it would grow on me?
http://car.mitula.us/offer-detalle/24422/99910787738669041/2/1/1959-cadillac-eldorado-biarritz/Antiquecar?cc=1
Thanks, Eric.
They do say that they will send me 115 photos on request. They request only "serious" inquiries. Well, I have the price and believe that I am a serious buyer, so maybe I qualify.
I suppose it wouldn't hurt, so if the car is still available, I will try to get the photos and post them here for all to peruse at your leisure. Thanks again for your help (although, I do have the feeling that if this car were a "steal" it would have been already taken by now).
Easier to view the pics here-
http://www.collectorcarads.com/Cadillac-Eldorado/57376
And as Eric mentioned the carbs, seems odd to me for those items to be missing on a claimed low mile car. I wonder if the entire engine has been swapped.
Is this not the same car posted in the 4 sale section earlier this week? asking $118k?
Sheldon Hay
Yes, Smedly, it is the same car.
Eric,
I just requested the 115 pics. I'll post as soon as I get them.
The wrong rivets don't make or break the car from a driving enjoyment perspective obviously, they indicate that the body tag has been removed. It seems insane to remove the body tag on a car that could be worth north of 100k. The authenticity and consequential value is now in question. How much do you think the Purple 71 Hemi Cuda convertible would be worth if it did not have an authentic body tag, not 3 million? When you get past the nice $30,000 cost 1965-1970 DeVille Convertible these details become important.
This could be a series 62 worth 50k to 60k less. If you ever plan to sell the car having the correct body tag with never removed rivets can mean an extra 50k.
Wrefakis,
Not sure if you got my reply but I am not believing anyone at this point without convincing evidence. 22,000 miles?- hard to believe and -without convincing documentation, I would not believe it. I realize that a 50 plus year old car without complete documentation can be almost anything but what it purports to be.
Scot,
I agree and I would consider a daily driver type car, but I would not want to pay an investment quality price.
I find is amazing that if a newbie like myself asks a few questions, all of a sudden the sellers lose interest in getting back to me.
I think that most of them have something to hide.
Persian car is real Biarritz I inspected the car in ny 10 years ago,when dealer had here in Bronx for 99k,driver ,the 59 has a very distinct stye of vin stamp,all fakes are incorrect in size and placement as are all repop body tags
If I was selling a 100k plus car that was authentic, any questions proposed by perspective buyers especially as related to documenting mileage, model, body tag, VIN, engine number and the like that created much of the value, I would be impressed and answer all questions satisfactorily. The idea that a seller avoids questions of this type is a deal killer for me. The most compelling e-bay advertisement for a 59 Eldorado for over 200k to me was one that read "40k miles, a/c, no excuses", and of course it was red with white interior. You can't have any authenticity excuses that are not thoroughly answered if you are selling a 100k+ car based on rarity and etc.
Thank you for all for your comments.
Wrefakis (or can I call you Bill?),
So, you are familiar with the Persian Sand car I saw in Costa Mesa, you say?
Do you think that the restored interior is leather or vinyl? Wasn't the original mostly leather?
Just out of curiosity, what do you think a fair price would be for this car?
Thanks!
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on July 15, 2014, 01:30:47 AM
Chris,
The 1970 Caddy is just about the most beautiful car ever produced in my estimation. ..........................
Anyway, what made you decide for the '70 over the '69? As a collector, I would have thought it might be best to go for the first year of the body style.
Sorry to for the late reply, personal stuff has been keeping me away.
Like Scot said, the '70 was a bit more "refined" than the '69. I like the '70 grille much better than the '69. Though the '69 steering wheel is more attractive than the '70, you don't have to deal with the rim-blow issue. The '69 had an air pump, the '70 did not. The '70 472 block is better equipped to take a 500 crankshaft, which is what I put in mine during the rebuild. I'm not what I would consider a collector, but have always wanted an old Cadillac. After owning a '75 Olds 88 Convertible, I now understand that the Cadillacs "appear" to be better built and better engineered than other cars. I intend to drive mine when I can, it won't be my daily driver, but as soon as I'm comfortable with it's dependability, I'll be taking it on road trips.
I do hope the search is going well for you. Have you looked at what the auction houses have as far as inventory? Barrett Jackson, Mecum, Gooding & Co, Russo & Steele, Auctions America and Leake Auction company........I hate to get in a bidding war with someone, but it is possible they may be bringing the car you are looking for to auction. Don't forget about Hemmings Motor News too. Keep us updated with all your goings on, we are living vicariously through you and thanks for letting us follow along!
chris.
that Persian car was just a driver that ran thru all the dealers from 85k up,again back in 89 the same bs went on with these cars with the auction crooks selling to imaginary Japanese for 200k,i think they got a fish or 2,by 95 35-45 bought you a nice redone driver,your 220k green one brought around 40k at auction in 96
when I looked at that Persian one in 99 I thought it was way over the money at 90k
most of these cars are glued together drivers at best
here is one for your the body tag is on a pile of parts sold to a big$$$ guy who thinks he has the best on on the planet
Chris,
It is I who thank YOU.
Having you fine gentlemen take the time to help out a virtual stranger is a privilege that I really did not expect.
Sure, I expected a few short comments, good luck, and good bye but I never expected you all to show such an interest. You guys are really Cadillac aficionados and I certainly appreciate the help.
Regarding auction houses: I never seriously considered them because of lack of access. Would they let me drive it? have an expert look at it? They had an auction in Newport Beach about a month ago and sold a '59 62 series convertible. I think that it went for just over $100 K. It was probably a nice car- or should be for that much money.I would think that for $102 K (I think that was the price) it should have been perfect, but who knows? Competing with some crazy, wealthy bidder who simply HAS to have the car at all costs really turns me off.
Thanks again!
Here's a relatively recent "completed" auction from eBay, but the car has no a/c.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1959-Biarritz-Bucket-Seats-Movie-Car-Air-Ride-Bucket-Seats-match-/351108318458?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&forcerrptr=true&hash=item51bfafc4fa&item=351108318458&nma=true&si=ZRgE%252FWDB6T4kAeGWxLroMzaD%252FnY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
If you have seen it already, sorry. If not, it's worth a look to see how it's equipped and it's general condition. I would imagine the seller still has it, but that's just a guess.
Chris,
I actually spoke to this guy on the phone. The incorrect interior kind of turned me off. Plus the starting bid is not low.
He said that he had a super 59 Eldo but he would not sell it, and even if he would, I am sure he would want the moon for it.
He is a big time collector and owns many cars from what I gathered. so he is ultra sophisticated. So even if I could get it for $145000 I would probably have to dump in what? Another $30 K to redo the interior and make it correct?
I guess it's good that it has the air ride and original radio available but I would much rather do without the air ride- which has problems anyway- and have the correct interior.
Also, I don't think this has A/C either.
Am I being too picky?
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on July 17, 2014, 07:15:50 PM
Am I being too picky?
Hail no, not picky at all. Get what you want and don't settle. The better cars take more time to find and (I assume) don't come up for sale as often as the ones in lesser condition.
My '70 had what I call "good bones". It did need some work, but was basically a great starting place. I like to work on them so it was a good one for me. It was the color I wanted along with the options I wanted.
Know what the true value of the car you are looking for, deduct from the asking price the estimated costs to put in what is necessary to get it to the level where it needs to be, then that is your offer price. Also, don't be worried about making an offer on the car, you never know what kind of financial shape the seller is in or how "motivated" he is. The asking price is just that - what he's asking. The selling price often times is much different. I assume buyers for these cars at that level are not everywhere, and due to that fact fewer and farther between.
All this advice we are providing is easy for me (and us) to say as we aren't emotionally invested in it as you are and that makes it a bit more difficult for you.
As a side note, I paid $17k for my '70 and put in about another $17k (so far) for a total of $34k. I won't get that out of it now, but I intend to keep it for 20 to 30 years (I'm 54) so the cost over that time is what, $1200 to $1700 per year + the value of it at the end and I'm good with that. And working on it is part of the journey. A restored and mint '70 vert would be valued at $25k to $35k, but selling and getting that price would take some time.
Chris,
Wow! sounds reasonable! Less than $35 K for a beautiful, collectable convertible Caddy. Actually, prettier than the '59.
But I tend to go all out and since my space is limited, I need to make this really count. If I had an 8 car garage, I would probably go wild.
I also like the Mark II Continental. I hope that I did not commit sacrilege here. Nothing flamboyant like the '59 Caddy but just a nice, solid and rare car. Hand-built, I believe. I see so many 55-57 T birds, the Mark would be much nicer. The only problem is that the Mark doesn't come in a production drop top. But don't get me wrong, I still like the Caddy better so I hope that my confession will not be held against me ;).
Thanks for the heads up, Grant.
I was a little bit leery of this guy anyway because he is obviously a wheeler-dealer. I would much rather buy from an 85 year-old who loved his car and is selling for health reasons. But I realize that ideal situations don't always conveniently turn up.
By the way, New Zealand is touted here in the States as a great place to which to immigrate.
49er,
Thank you for your fine advice. After seeing you guys pick apart a few cars that I was looking at (not seriously considering, mind you), I can see that there appears to be a lot of false advertising and attempts at trickery out there.
When spending this much money, I cannot afford NOT to be patient- and, as an impatient man, that is quite an accomplishment.
I presume that you will have local experts you can recommend when I find a car that has passed preliminary inspection?
HI, Gents, just joined, and was pulled in reading these last 3 pages,,,,,,,,,,
interesting reading at best!
here is my 2 cents on buying from collector car dealers, you have good ones, and bad ones, Costa mesa has a few too many high priced ones,,,,
almost all C.M dealers are looking for a EUROPEAN buyer someone that won`t ask allot of questions, and will see a bargain after the euro or pound, gets converted to the weaker US dollar.
i did many restorations on fine European cars for many years, and in the 90`s saw the overseas resellers take hold in that town.
The Costa Mesa broker with the Persian Sand Eldo made me a bit wary. Anybody who wheels and deals collectable cars on a daily basis is almost bound to get the better end of the deal. When the eyebrows were missing and they had no idea who restored the car, even I was put on guard and it was the first car that I looked at.
And when they would not come off their $180,000 price, I knew it was time to walk out. They have since shipped the car to Monterey for auction. Who knows? They might get their price after all.
You guys know your stuff and you would not be fooled. Unfortunately, it would appear that I have to compete with deep pockets who buy on emotion without doing their homework and foreigners- ditto.
Unfortunately I think you are 100% correct, the people with deep pockets who do not research properly and the people out of the Country all seem to want cars of this super collectable plateau. That is what makes them valuable and establishes price. You can win:
1. The quality is long remembered after the price is forgotten. If you plan to keep the car a while and enjoy it, it will appreciate and you will do OK. This is a hobby more than it is an investment - like golf maybe. If you really want a 59 Eldorado, it will be unreasonably expensive for a good one that drives well and is correct.
2. You can buy a high quality undiscovered underappreciated Cadillac classic today. The 1960 Eldorados are not cheap, but I like them better than the 1959's. The 1961 thru 1963 Eldorados are under appreciated I think. Also the 1959 and 1960 Eldorado Broughams are underappreciated. You just can't go wrong with my favorites that are nice highway cruisers: a high quality 1959-1970 Cadillac convertible.
You only live once, so maybe it has to be the 1959 Eldorado.
Whatever you do, don't buy a basket case car, those do not bring joy. Look at the car yourself and drive it yourself before buying. In the price brackets you are interested in, the car should be close to perfect. It should start, drive handle and stop like a dream. All accessories such as, power top, power windows, windshield wipers/washer, vacuum locks/trunk release (should work a day after shutting car off) and etc should work perfectly.
Good luck,
Scot
I inspect cars for foreign buyers frequently.
They like to know what they are getting into and at times are quite picky.
Some classic car dealers take advantage and overstate and misrepresent their cars. Some are quite fair. It's possible to get a nice car from a dealer because they buy cars from many different sources and sometimes get a real steal from a motivated seller or estate. If they buy it right they can sell it at a fair price and still make money.
It would be great to find a nicely restored car or original from a private seller and if you are patient one may turn up. I'd join the CLC if you haven't already and post an ad under cars wanted.
Anything that you buy should be inspected for you if you cannot get to see the car in person.
At this dollar level people cannot be trusted to convey the honest condition of the car. Even if they just swap the hubcaps after you buy the car it's thousands of dollars lost.
If you are flexible on color choice and location I am sure something will come up.
Good luck,
Brian
the car will not sell for 180k they will bid it up to 150 with the soda machine as high bidder and close the bidding
sit on your $$$$ there will be cars coming up,we are at the cycle peak,this car and the white one have been run thru every auction on earth,ditto for the movie car on ebay,the buy for 65 sell for 130 model is in big trouble
it takes a bit of time to find the right car,but last summer I sold a white original clean one with 29k original miles for 110 and that was every dime it would bring after the entire world passed on it
I doubt that car would bring north of 90 right now
Quote from: wrefakis on July 19, 2014, 10:03:05 AM
the car will not sell for 180k they will bid it up to 150 with the soda machine as high bidder and close the bidding
The soda machine! LOL!
Quote from: George K Hashem on July 19, 2014, 11:04:01 AM
How about the name Phantom or Shill may be more like it....
We say "the wall was bidding on it" in our neck of the woods. :D
Bill knows more individual '59 EBZs probably better than anybody - he's the man the OP should consult.
FWIW - a buddy has had nothing but heartaches with the A/S 30,000 mile near-mint original Ritz and just after getting the car back from the shop for the umpteenth time for the A/S, only to suffer a minor engine fire due to the troublesome 6 pack carb.
Yes, they're gorgeous - the holy grail of postwar Cadillac but personally I want a car that I can turn the key and go with a minimum of muss & fuss. And I really wouldn't want one converted to 4 bbl on coils because it's always going to be a negative in the eyes of many - unless you were lucky enough to find one that had been specially ordered without those "extras" - which I doubt many were, if at all.
For this cowboy, a Series 62 convertible would do just as well - and pocket $50K.
Eric,
I have not ruled out a 62 convertible and if a good one came along at the right price, I would "settle". This is especially true if the Eldos all turned out to be lipsticked pigs.
The Eldo would be for Sunday drives, occasional informal car shows. If I got a white one, I might consider having myself and the car for hire to schlep the happy couple to and from the wedding reception. More for fun than the income, you understand but that way, I could write-off part of the operating costs.
A red one would be perfect for the Huntington Beach Fourth of July Parade. My character is Ben Franklin (some say that there is a resemblance) and I could just see my character along with Abe Lincoln and George Washington sitting on the parade boot and waving to the crowds. I likely would not be paid, but it sure would be fun.
Not sure what occasion a black or Persian Sand would serve. I am not really into funerals and the lavender car is pretty but kind of a fem color (maybe a gay pride parade?). No, I think I'll pass on both of those activities LOL. But I'd still buy a black or Persian Sand car if it was "right".
If I got an Eldo with a chronic mechanical problem that could not be cured any other way, I think that I would correct the problems with new equipment and save the old parts- so I could always sell with the original equipment in case the buyer would want to change the car back.
If you're using the car for business reasons, a S 62 makes all the more sense:
Not only more practical and reliable but few in the general population are going to appreciate the difference between a S 62 & EBZ, or even care.
Don't forget there is no shortage of "made-up" S 62 convertibles either - many even began life as a 2 door hardtops! Always make sure the body plates show either 6267 or 6467 for S 62 and Biarritz respectively on the body plates and "F" or "E" contained in the VIN # to be certain.
Eric,
Yes, few would know the difference and the 62 is very impressive- just not the "ultimate". Of course, I would know the difference :).
The public are hard use on classic cars. I hired mine out once, when I drove and was in constant position of supervision. You feel like a jerk telling people not to slam doors, walk on seats with shoes (high heals on 40 plus year old original leather, or rubber floor mats - great), and etc. Even still they did paid for the slight damages. It is just no fun, best to transport "car people" in your classics that understand. There are many better legitimate write-off's if that is what you seek. It would be easy to see a situation where you say good buy to 10k perhaps if you rent out a perfect 59 Eldo with even you driving. If I was renting my car for hire, it would be a #3 car with great mechanics. The public only cares that the top drops, it has effective a/c and is a good color. Any classic Cadillac convertible with a back seat will impress the public.
Scot,
A white 70 convertible De Ville would be a beautiful wedding car as well BUT, I would think that it would not rent for half of what a '59 Convert would. But if they are going to abuse my car, I would not be up for it. I think that you should collect security deposit up front so the renter has skin in the game too. As to the amount, I think $2,000 would keep them interested in keeping the car pristine- especially with you there guarding it.
But that sounds like a lot of work and worry. If you can't net $3,000 for the day, probably not worth it.
What about the 70 Eldos? Do they come in a convertible? I actually prefer the looks of the De Ville for some reason.
You can rent a 300k Rolls convertible for 1k a day. I'm in DC, and you will never get 2 or 3k a day for any Cadillac on a regular basis. People just don't know, they are not trying to hurt the car, so deposit may not work well. Then there is the scratch -normal wear and tear or damage? Courts, insurance and all - probably best to stay out of the for hire deal.
I did it once and it was an experience, but not worth doing on a regular basis. You can see my rental on Google is for the Washington Caps Hockey team "Rock the Red" theme where they needed a 6 passenger red on red convertible for the players to ride in based on an "Entourage" theme. My kids got to be in the video and we enjoyed meeting the team. Hockey players are like mostly my size 5'-9" 170lbs, not large people surprisingly. Earned $450 for about 8 hours time - wha whooo ( I write sarcastically).
On a lighter note took my 14 year old to the pool today in the red 1970 DeVille Convertible. When I picked her up at around 7pm we are walking in parking lot to the car top down and all washed looking great and she says "I can't believe how your car is so old yet it makes the one next to it look cheap and ugly." The car next it was a nice 2010 white 5 series BMW sedan ( no offense to BMW owners), but it did look like POS next to our 44 year old Cadillac.
Most of the public are not car people - don't believe me - take a look around on the road and in parking lots. Anyway, beg to differ a 1970 Caddy will get very close to a 1959 Caddy in rent, the large convertible is what people see. People even sometimes think mine is a 59. On the convertible question, 1967 until present Cadillac only made one model convertible with a back seat:
1967 - 1970 DeVille Convertible RWD
1971 - 1976 Eldorado Convertible FWD
1984 - 1985 Eldorado Convertible FWD
I like the look of the 71-73 better than my 1970, but can't appreciate front drive cars as much as RWD(sorry I know there are a lot of FWD fans, but I picked the car that does not looks as good to get RWD).
Cadillacs are becoming popular because you get to drive a cool looking old car that is a vehicle the easily keeps up with modern traffic in comfort via a/c, tilt wheel, power seats, power windows etc. The 1970 Firebird can't really match the Caddy for comfort, plus the top does not drop.
Thanks again for your post, it is fun to read and participate in. be sure and let us know what you buy even if it is not a Cadillac. Those 4 door Lincoln's from 61 - 67 with convertible top that folds into trunk are great too.
Scot,
In my humble opinion, the 1969-70 Caddys were the best looking ever produced- including the Eldos.
I saw a row of 60's Caddys at the OC Fair grounds and the '66 looked great but the '69 stole the show.
I just do not see how anyone could possibly improve on the looks of the front end, and in my opinion, no one ever has.
I also like the front end of the 1966 Lincoln, though not as much. The butt end would look better without those skinny tail lights/ reflectors, in my opinion.
But the Lincoln is a bit boxy for my tastes. But I like the suicide doors on the Linc. They are COOOL. I also like the idea of the 4 door convertible.
So, maybe I missed something but I was not aware that Lincoln produced a car where the top tucked away in the trunk in the 60s. Any of these with the four door models? What years and types had it? I take it these were all cloth tops and not hardtops, right?
Get on you tube and search for 1961 - 1967 Lincoln convertible - all were canvas tops - suicide doors where trunk folded into trunk and when closed the metal met the leather, not top mechanism showing.
The Lincoln's have no trunk with top down. My 1970 DeVille convertible had no trouble swallowing my son's new bike we picked up a year or two ago with 26" wheels. I have three 1970 Cadillacs, pictures attached. The front end is very cool.
I have the only four door Cadillac convertible made after WWII produced and sold by Cadillac with a warranty (just one car made). The red Caddy placed 3rd at GN in NY this summer and is my driver. The silver sedan (not pictured) my son and I are restoring mechanicals together.
The 1970 Caddy's are nice, not to valuable to drive, yet really appreciated by public - many thumbs up as we drive by.
NICE!
How did you manage to score the one-of-a kind?
Not sure, but I may be changing my mind about the '59. I am sure that a '70- would not only be a lot cheaper, it would also be much easier to find a nice specimen PLUS they are beautiful.
I am kind of leaning to a white on white because with a base white color, the car can be decorated for any occasion- like a parade.
Flag bunting and presto- you have a Fourth of July car.
Some carnations and you have a wedding car.
Scot,
Re: the '70 Caddy-
What do you mean by "non-rim blow horn"?
I compared the grills. the '69 is far more intricate and detailed whereas the '70 is much plainer.
Must be a matter of taste.
A rim blow horn blows when you squeeze the rim part of the steering wheel. My understanding is that there is a contact wire inlaid in the wheel perimeter that fails over time.
And what's the story behind the 4 door convertible? You can't just throw a pic out there and not explain!
Her is the story behind the four door convertible.
It started life as a std two door convertible. A wealthy lady from Chicago approached her Cadillac dealer about a four door convertible. The Cadillac factory sent Lehman and Peterson a convertible and SDV doors, seats, and other parts. They made a triple dark blue 2 door convertible into a dark blue top and body with brown interior four door convertible. The lady was embroiled in an embezzlement/bribery scheme in 1972 and the car was sold eventually to a wealthy DC contractor in 1973 for $7,300 (the price of a new Cadillac). Mr. Webster owner this car for 32 years and treated as an ordinary car, leaving it outside and etc, but never drove it in bad weather. In 2005 it was sold to a collector in VT, who parked it and planned to restore it. In 2009 when I saved the money to buy it and opened up a garage space I called the VT collector. He said it was third in line to be restored (the economy), and I bought it for what he paid in 2005. I have been restoring it now. It was basically a tired 104k mile car that was not rusted and ran decent. It is the real deal though. Here is a picture of the rebuilt engine going back in.
Still have some work to do.
Wow! For $165,000 I'd buy a Rolls Royce. Does the previous owner stand in as a chauffeur also?
I have always loved, and collected 59's,but always drove 69 and 70. They were by far the best running full size cads,period.
My money is where my mouth is and love driving 1970 Cadillacs. Highly recommend them. Except for the carb as opposed to fuel injection(pump, no pump, fast idle and all - need some judgment on starting them), they are just like driving a regular modern car, except way cooler. They handle and accelerate with authority against modern traffic. The engine is at 2,000 rpm at 55 mph with the 2.93 differential, so just 2727 rpm at 75 mph which can be the flow of modern traffic on the highways of today. You do have to assure a safe distance as although they have disk brakes and stop fairly well, most cars stop with 4 wheel disk brakes and their drivers use poor judgment. Drove to GN in NY maintaining flow of modern traffic on rt 95 (no driving 50 mph in right lane), over 1,200 miles, no issues.
The 1970 Cadillac is just like a regular modern car except no cup holders.
The 1970 Cadillac is my preferred driver in summer, have not driven my daily driver due to bad weather in a week.
First off, I was out of town when this thread started and didn't know my password, so I couldn't post. Let me also say that I was hunting for a '59 Eldo convertible - Biarritz if I could find one, and one in Persian Sand appeared close to me in Columbus, GA - and was quickly sold before I could do anything about it (for a mere 58K - yes, I also wonder what was wrong with it). I got into the Caddy game because of two things: I am a Historian of Technology, especially of the Cold War, and I understand what a Cadillac meant in those days. The other reason is purely aesthetic. When you see a Cadillac produced before the era of the wind tunnel, you are looking at a moving piece of sculpture. And tail fins are sexy.
So I went ahead and delineated a range that I would look for: between 1957 and 1959. I ended up with a nice white 1957 Sedan de Ville for a good price and despite my constant work on rehabilitating it (it was a low-mile driver when I bought it and in 6 months I have put 6,000 miles on it), I am extremely happy with it.
I echo the sentiments of everyone else here: do your homework, don't be cheap on the reading materials, and the idea of renting out the car (which I would NEVER do unless I was driving, in which case my time would be rented too) is fraught with complications. That does not stop people from approaching me and asking if I will do it - the answer is a polite "no." This is mainly due to the fact that when I am driving my car, I like to go where I want to go - not where I am being told. Before anyone asks - no, I am not married.
I want to add another car so that I can call myself a "collector." I am thinking a 1958 car because it was a transitional year for body style. The one thing that I do not like about the 1959 cars is the front bumper, which lacked the dagmars.
Good luck and good hunting!
Dave
Hello Dave
Glad to read you are interested in becoming a Cadillac collector. Low milage vehicles from the Standard of the World are best for appreciation rate and touring. Can I persuade you to purchase one of the best models Cadillac ever manufactured......LaSalle?
Sure! Persuade me!
Hello Dave
The 1959 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz is a fabulous iconic automobile that every capable collector would like to have in her/his stable. Of course I am unbiased but I will try to share some intricacies about the LaSalle.
Harley Earl was an automotive design pioneer that accepted the challenge of providing a stylish Cadillac for less money. In the 1920's Cadillac executives surmised that during difficult financial times the general population and Cadillac owners were fearful to drive a Cadillac. However driving a LaSalle provided them all accouterments and advantages of a Cadillac without the name. LaSalle prices were placed to fill the void between Cadillac and Buick. The luxury, quality and magnificent styling attracted buyers at a lower price than Cadillac. Also creating and introducing LaSalle as a companion car was a marketer's utopian idea to those ascending the economic ladder, to some day acquire a Cadillac. LaSalle outsold Cadillac from 1933-1940. Post depression LaSalle saved Cadillac.
Today a LaSalle automobile is a rarity at most Cadillac events while serving as a magnet when present. Prices of these beauties continue to escalate as enthusiasts appreciate their place in history.
If you have additional questions please do not hesitate to ask.
I was being facetious, C.R. - if I had the bread, and could find one (as well as a '56 Desoto - oh heck, ANY Desoto) I would be a very happy man! LaSalles are gorgeous, and as you said, exceedingly rare nowadays!
Best,
Dave
"Gee our old La Salle ran great.
Those were the days!"
Finding my dream car appears to be much harder than I thought.
I would also like a 70 convertible but not nearly as much and I am not sure I want to give up tight garage space for such a car.
Renting storage is out of the question because being able to go into the garage, hop in and drive away without making grand plans is what it's all about.
So, maybe I should buy a home with a four or five car garage? They are pricey, though- over $3 million. This hobby is getting crazy expensive!
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on July 23, 2014, 05:25:40 PM
.............I am not sure I want to give up tight garage space for such a car.
Renting storage is out of the question because being able to go into the garage, hop in and drive away without making grand plans is what it's all about.
So, maybe I should buy a home with a four or five car garage? ...............
Any room to erect a detached, one or two car garage on your property? That would fit one or both the '59 and the '70. I agree with the off-site storage problem. It would be quite a process/pain to go to the storage facility to get the car to take if for a drive.
I would expect the search for the right '59 to take some time. Perhaps a year or two or more. Perhaps a readily available and nice '70 in the interim to satisfy for the time being?
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on July 23, 2014, 05:25:40 PM
Finding my dream car appears to be much harder than I thought.
It will take time. I spent over a year finding less of a rare car and that was built in 99.
It's been said but paying up for the best example is always the best route if you can do it.
The '59 Biarritz would be garaged and I would put a car cover on my 50th anniversary Mercedes SL 65 AMG (about 1200 produced- which is also a future collectible) and park it in the driveway.
But I probably would not put my AMG outside for the '70 Cadillac. So the '70 would sit outside- just covered with a car cover.
I would hate to buy a car just to sit outside. Yes, I am in Orange County so the weather is relatively mild, but still....
My wife has a new Mercedes and so does my daughter (yes, she is spoiled :-\). We are currently cleaning out the third car garage for my daughter.
So we have several nice cars to house, so to speak, and they all deserve garage space.
Chris,
We have a slightly larger than average city lot with a double and a single garage in the front of the home. No, there is no room and even if there was, we belong to an association and they are strict.
This isn't Hemet, it's Laguna Niguel and no way would they allow anything like you suggested even if we had the room.
Here you can't throw up a barn to house your car collection. If you can afford it, you buy a home with a fancy underground eight car garage (epoxy finished floors, of course).
That would be a bit of a stretch for us. We are not close to being poor, but we are not part of the Fortune 500 either.
Wrefakis,
We have heard from Scot. Now I would appreciate your opinion:
1. Which year do you like better, '69 or '70 and why?
2. Which car do you think will be more collectible in the future and why?
3. Do you suggest paying more and going with a like-newer car or not?
4. What options do you think I should require and why?
Thanks!
Here is a nice car, looks like excellent condition. Nice color. I prefer red on white better than red on red.
It's in New York, though and those cars get a lot of rust PLUS it's far to go for a personal inspection.
http://www.carsforsale.com/used-cars-for-sale/1970-cadillac-deville-longisland-ny-231269662
It looks nice, it has the desirable passenger side mirror, but it is missing the front seat head rests. How can one lose those??? I also notice the courtesy light is not on when the door is open. May only be a bulb, but you never know. Also, it has Idaho plates, but it's in New York??? A phone call would clear it all up. I'm not a fan of the white interior. 40 years ago when I was a kid, my cousin had a car with a white interior and the only advice I recall him giving me was don't buy a car with a white interior (hard to keep clean).
White interiors tend to crack and look ugly with time, but if you can keep it clean and undamaged, there is nothing more striking in my opinion- particularly with a bold exterior color like burgundy, blue or green. I think the combo is just beautiful. I had a 1973 (I think) Cad Eldorado red metallic with red interior when I was a kid in my 20s. Never cared for the red interior but I loved the red metallic exterior. If I took a good look at this interior, the cracks have probably been filled with some kind of gunk unless they have been replaced with new upholstery- which I doubt. I would like a blue metallic or burgundy metallic... maybe green metallic. I have always favored dark metallic colors colors because of their depth and beauty. Pair that with a white interior and you have one amazing look, in my opinion. Not as crisp, but tan interiors work rather well too. Don't care for black interiors- or blue interiors. Paired with white is better.
Hello Mr. Stewart
I like inquisition from students IN my class. However I love the practical application by my student's IN their personal field of study. When you become a tactile learner for YOUR RIGHT CAR a smile will shine on your face. You can receive OUR advice and opinions but until YOU learn on your own we are throwing thoughts in the wind.
The Cadillac & LaSalle Club Socal Annual Regional Car Show at the Angels Gate / Joan Milke Flores Park in San Pedro, August 17, 2014. I highly suggest you speak to Calvin Jones and Tony Hiller. You can visit clcsocal.com for more details.
I like you C.R.
You remind me of the old Colonel sitting in the overstuffed leather chair with his fine cigar and cognac in hand in the wood paneled billiard room at an exclusive country club eyeing the new applicant with raised eyebrow to see if this new upstart meets the "requirements".... LOL (forgive the run-on sentence).
Except in this case, he's sitting in the overstuffed rear seat of a LaSalle!
That red with white interior 1970 Cadillac Convertible for 24.5k is missing the seat head rests. When you see that, you can help but to ask-what else?
On the 69/70 question you cannot go wrong with either year. Really any Caddy from the 60's you can't go wrong. Classic car buying is more of an opportunity. When I bought the 1970, was looking for a high compression 472 (1968 thru 1970), and my 1970 was the first to be offered. The other two 1970 Cadillacs were luck. If I had purchased a 1969, I would list a host of advantages over the 1970 - sorry can't help myself.
Scot,
I prefer the looks of the 69-70 DeVilles over the '68.
I remember when my Dad's cousin, a wealthy businessman, purchased a brand new '69 Fleetwood.
Everyone was Wowed. It had brocade interior instead of leather and it was gold. I remember that too.
Cousin Lloyd was not only the wealthiest member of the family, he was also the nicest.
Everyone loved him. He never had a bad word to say about anyone and no one ever had a bad word to say about him. And for my Mom, regarding the Stewarts, that was quite an accomplishment ;).
Just out of curiosity, care to list some of those advantages of the '69 over the '70?
Check out post # 29, it has the advantage of 70 over 69 Cadillacs. The differences are minor, as in the sets of similar cars 59/60, 61/62, 63/64, 65/66. 67/68,and 69/70, the 69/70 Cadillacs have the fewest differences. The primary difference between the 69 and 70 is the suspension because the 65-69 suspension is almost the same, and the 70-76 is almost the same. Even so the 65-76 Cadillac suspensions are all similar.
You can't go wrong with any Cadillac from 1959 thru 1976 - my favorite era, especially 69 and 70. The other years are wonderful too.
If this was close by I'd check it out in person.
I am not familiar with the 62 series interior for 1959 but it doesn't look "kosher". It looks like the top of the headrest separates, but it claims t be a faithful restoration.
Also, not sure about the hub caps.
P. S. I tried to leave a message for the Seller but could not, for some reason. Oh, well, I guess that leaves this one out. If I can't ask the seller a question, I'm not interested. But the car looks nice.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadillac-DeVille-series-62-body-code-f/271556484810?_trksid=p2045573.c100034.m2102&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D24143%26meid%3D8576109415278420290%26pid%3D100034%26prg%3D10240%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D181471654224
Wire wheels are fairly popular but not original of course.
Trunk trim is missing. Gasket for front of rear side windows (in door jamb) missing.
Oddly it has a/c vents but is a non a/c car. Also may need a dash recover?
Overall looks really nice though!
Thanks for your evaluation, IMTND8.
Here's a '69 that looks pretty good. Was tan interior offered with red exterior? I'd like to stay with original colors.
This one is in Florida.
Do you think it's worth pursuing?
http://classiccars.com/listings/view/523281/1969-cadillac-deville-for-sale-in-clearwater-florida-33755
Question: How rare is the 400 hp '70 engine?
Is it a good idea to look for one of these as a collectible feature?
How much would this feature add to the price?
Thanks!
In regards to the '69, this is what I see - and I'm just pointing out the faults. '70s are more my area than '69, but they are very close.
The color - is it original? It is clearly a respray, but was it done in the original color?
Courtesy lights aren't on when the door is open.
The a/c condenser and a/c compressor are missing (under the hood)
It's missing the original air cleaner.
It has an in line fuel filter (much easier to replace, but not original)
Back bumper - is it from a Fleetwood? I think it should be smooth chrome and not have those black inserts - why would the back bumper be replaced with the wrong one?
I see it has a cruise control transducer - does the cruise work?
Does the rim-blow horn work?
It has upgraded electronic ignition (not original, but lots better!)
The car is equipped with power door locks.
The engine color is not original (the dark blue is not readily available on store shelves)
Overall, from the pics, the car looks nice, the interior looks good, but for that price, it (the car) should be completely done and ready to go, but it doesn't look that way (the a/c is not done). Iffin it were me (and it's not), I would at least speak to the seller (to gain knowledge and experience) to get the specifics of the car, but for that money, I would pass. To me, that's more of a $10k to $15k car.
On that 69, it has issues and will require some sorting out:
The no a/c and modified engine compartment is the major thing. Plus if the courtesy lights don't work there are likely other issues that appear minor but often take a lot of time to correct.
The back chrome part of the bumper is correct but the inserts are from a Fleetwood instead of a DeVille. Those can be changed out but you have to drop the rear bumper to do it.
On the colors, you could order a Cadillac in any color combination you wanted. That tan color looks like an original, and the red could be as well. Clearly they have been re-done. This car is in FL, you are in CA, a car haven. I'm sure that there are some nice classic Cadillacs in your area that you can inspect and examine. This 69 you would need to closely look over for quality upholstery and paint work. When a for profit car dealer paints and reupholsters the car corners are cut and it is all about the money, as opposed to a devoted owner paying for the work. The red leather seats on my Caddy could have been re-done for half of what I paid, but that was five years ago and they look new after quite a bit of use.
Probably not worth the investment of your time to go look at. If you can see issues in the pictures, don't make the trip.
Forgot to answer your question about one year only 400 hp Eldorado w/500 high compression engine rarity. I don't see these being highly valued for that reason. Being an engineer, I think that is not the way the public should buy, but don't have control over that. There were maybe 20k made and the convertibles were like 15k made. You can check it out, but the value of the 67 - 70 Eldorados varies primarily on mileage and condition, more so than on the unique 400hp 1970 engine. That is a low mileage 1969 Eldorado in good shape will sell for more than a 1970 Eldorado in not as good of shape with higher mileage. This is contrary to comparing a 1959 Cadillac to a 1970 Cadillac, where an average 1959 Cadillac may sell for more than the best 1970 Cadillac.
Got it, guys, thanks!
Yes, I live here in SoCal which is a car haven but, surprisingly, not many of these 69-70 converts appear to be here at this time. Ill just wait it out and pounce when I find a local cream puff. Condition and adherence to originality are far more important than price when considering these low-priced cars.
I agree. If there are issues with the pics, no need to make the trip!
I think they have a good chance to appreciate in value over the next ten years- perhaps at a higher % increase than the 59s.
If I was in your area I would just search craigslist (searchtempest.com) for the entire pacific northwest. Even in Illinois I've had 3 vehicles shipped from the west coast.
It's not impossible to find a rust free vehicle in say, New York, but since you live in a great area for rust free vehicles that's where I would be searching. Save money on shipping as well.
Look in Oregon, Washington. Most stuff I've seen there is very rust free. I'm a fan of "survivor" cars. Well kept originals with original paint and interior.
That's what I would be looking for in a 69/70 as it should still be relatively affordable. Well, you could have a fleet of them for one 59 Biarritz anyway ;D
Thanks,
I will keep an eye on Craig's list.
So, far... nothing.
Seems everyone is importing California cars.
Why don't they just let Californians buy them?
Plenty of collectors here.
This looks like the condition I'm looking for- just not the right color. Black is okay, but the white top turns me off.
Tan interior is okay.
I think I will wait for a red one or possibly a rich blue. I like white interiors with the red or blue exteriors. Triple white is fair and might work if I found a good one- but I think I'll wait for red or blue with the white interior.
Question: I have seen these cars in San Mateo red and what looks like metallic red, but the firemist red was not on the color palate that I could see. Both must be San Mateo red. I guess the light makes it look darker and metallic.
What do you think this car should go for?
http://www.schmitt.com/viewimage.asp?ID=4244
If you like Byzantine Gold with black top and interior and low mileage there is one here in PA for about $30,000 that is really beautiful. I know the car and it is a good one. Being sold by a long time CLC member:
http://philadelphia.en.craigslist.org/cto/4556056241.html
You would really like mine but it's not for sale. Pics below...
Brian
The only issue I saw with the black 69 is the head rests are missing. The steering wheel looked good. If the a/c and horn works, plus the mileage is documented I say it is worth going to see. Given that mileage and condition it is worth the price. The blue engine paint butting up to the exhaust manifolds usually burns off quickly, so recent engine detailing has been completed. Looks like the ps hose is replaced which is critical. There are too many red convertibles (I take partial blame for this), so this is nice.
The white top is no big deal, it can be replaced for about $1,000.00. Don't get a black top though, convertibles with same color tops don't pop like contrasting color tops - get the tan top if you make a color change. The black tan interior is a great color combo-I'm changing my triple blue to that combo except with tan top.
On the gold Caddy with rich black interior, if you are a top down person on sunny days, I would not get black. If you want a convertible and never drop the top, or only when it is not hot and sunny then it can work. If it is above 50'F and not raining and if you see my Caddy driving down the road with top up, it has been stolen.
Black is good on some cars- like a Porsche 911 Turbo, not sure that I like it in this Caddy. With tan interior, it needs a tan top, in my opinion. White and back is a little too police car for me and I really dislike it. If they ordered it with white top, do you lose points in shows if you change it out?
That byzantine gold is a pretty car and I imagine rust free even though they apparently drive it in the snow, but it doesn't turn me on.
I like red and some shades of blue, so I think I'll wait. I know that blue cars are less popular, but if you get a gorgeous metallic blue with white interior.... ZOWIE! I think I would prefer it over red.
Color is important and I really want a car with original color.
Brian,
Nice car. Gorgeous , in fact. I don't blame you for not selling.
BTW, why do some have hood ornaments and some don't?
Also, isn't the "De Ville" badge missing on that byzantine gold on the left side of the trunk lid?
There is actually a very simple litmus test for ascertaining whether a stand-up hood ornament is correct on a given Cadillac:
Look at the center facing of the hood. If it has Cadillac emblem mounted to the hood facing - whether crest/vee, crest/wreath or crest only - it did NOT leave the factory with a standup, under any circumstances. Period and full stop.
That said, it was extremely common for standups to be dealer installed for customers who insisted upon it; or at any point along the trail of ownership they could also have been installed. Call it stand-up-ornament envy! ;D
Stand up hood ornament made its first appearance on the 1971 Eldorado.
-Could not find the Byzantine Gold car but "DeVille" script should never appear on decklid of any Cadillac; only on rear quarter panels - (DeVille Convertible, 1964-1970).
-Black on almost any Cadillac model is a major plus (at least in the marketplace) - however top & interior color selections will ultimately make or break the look of the car in total.
Too bad. I hate to turn down a great car for something as shallow as color and the color might grow on me, but don't you think that another collector will part with a car in red or blue with white interior for a similarly reasonable price?
Besides black seats get very hot with the top down.
Waiting for a local metallic blue 1969-70 Cadillac convertible with white interior in near perfect condition may take a while. Every color combo has their advantages and disadvantages. The criteria I used that ultimately concluded with the purchase of my red on red with white top Cadillac convertible was 68-70 in decent color in great shape, no black interior. This is more of an opportunity than anything else. Will you be able to turn away a steel blue 68 Caddy with medium blue interior, dark blue top in great shape and highly optioned - if you are human - it will be difficult.
This is a nice problem to "suffer" through - enjoy the process!
Many Cadillacs ended up with dealer or customer installed stand up hood ornaments.
Back in the early 70's the were popular and a lot of guys like to have that ornament on the hood.
On my car I hate that its on there but I'm not going to repaint the hood on an all original car so I live with it.
Scot,
Why would the head rests be missing on that black '69 Cad with the white convertible top? Especially an "investment grade" car?
If that is original miles and it is as it appears, I agree that it is a decent price.
It appears to be auction because they say "bid with confidence".
Too bad it is in St. Louis and not a local car.
BTW, I prefer the '69 DeVille tail lights to the '70. I don't exactly know why.
Yes, I can turn down any '68 because they do not compare in beauty to the '69-70 in my opinion.
When the '65 De Ville first came out with the radical new front end, I had to go over and see what kind of car it was because I knew it was a luxury land yacht but had never seen one that looked like that before.
When the '69 Eldo came out, I though they could not improve on the looks of it, and in my opinion, they never have- but no convertibles were manufactured and I have to have a convertible. But the '69 Eldorado? Rembrandt would have been proud.
The new Cads are "okay" but I prefer the Mercedes Benz- mostly for the quality.
Here is a nice color combo: a sharp medium blue with tan seats and a tan convertible top. This is one of my favorite combinations.
This one looks like a prize winner, assuming there is no rust lurking somewhere.
I will call tomorrow and find out what's up.
I think I like this as well as blue and white and it is far more practical. Not quite as crisp looking as blue and white- but very nice.
I think I could be happy with this if has the proper options and it is not ungodly expensive.
I know that a lot of people don't like blue in a car, but I do.
The color might hold down the value appreciation, though.
It says "call for the price", so I can imagine....
Here it is:
http://www.lemonfree.com/car/Cadillac-DeVille-1970/-7270233298027890788
Anyway it looks like it has no A/C because it was not mentioned.
I think that getting a loaded car is much better, factory installed of course.
I think that A/C , cruise control are important.
What options do you think are important and which not?
The colors are right but this one is missing the head rests and also has inappropriate script on the left side of the trunk lid.
http://www.lemonfree.com/car/Cadillac-DeVille-1970/2255389807715260304
To each their own, I like the 1968 Cadillacs better than the 69 and 70's and own three 1970 Cadillacs. They are very nice and I could be happy with any of them. I like the 70 a little better than 69 because primarily the tail lights - 70 has a cleaner longer look.
This 1970 blue Caddy looks good, but the pictures were a little difficult for me to see. Does not look like it has tilt wheel, which I enjoy (switched my non-tilt for a tilt column back in 2006). The blue and tan are OK. No engine shot. Steering wheel looked good. It is worth seeing if close by.
On your head rest question earlier that does not apply to this car, this is my experience and theory:
The headrests may come with the car, but they remove in ten seconds and the car may look better in photos without them - I would ask about that before righting off the car entirely. If the seats are redone it is almost impossible to match original exactly and this is compounded by the head rests being plastic and seats leather. I recovered my head rests in the same leather as the seats so that they match.
Yes I hear you on the MB Cadillac issue for the present. I always buy American RWD V-8 cars only. Waiting for Cadillac to start making their MB S class fighter (should be 2016 or so). My last daily driver Cadillac was a 1995 RWD Fleetwood Brougham and I loved it. After 254k miles and ten years trouble free years in 2005 Cadillac sold nothing I wanted to replace it. Bought a 2006 Charger w/Hemi, OK but it is no Cadillac.
blue and tan car was mine 10 years ago,nice car with ac and some paintwork,but mostly original
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder- for sure.
In my opinion, the '69-70s blow the new Caddys away in the looks department.
The '68 is not a bad looking car- I just like the way that the headlights, the grill and the front fenders come together in the '69 and '70s.
'71 actually deteriorates in my opinion.
Buy your 69 or 70 and post pictures on line. Then in LV 2016 GN drive it there and we can meet in person. That is 2,400 miles and just a little too far for me to drive. Attend GN 2015 in WI and you can see all the years of Cadillacs and learn a lot - I will be there.
OK--- I passed up this thread a few times-- But while waiting for a download I skimmed through this one... What I NEVER saw anyone mention was, to ask the seller if they have requested the original sales order build sheet. Yes Roy's books (I own more than one copy of everything Roy published) are great tools, but not a lot of help to identify THIS CAR....
I did not see anyone talk about the VIN stamping and that it is in more than ONE PLACE--- Although nearly impossible to see it in the second location. Also of course the frame cross member thickness. I really don't think much about the wrong rivets on the cowl tag, that is a common error made by amateur restoration shops. But also the missing plastic lubrication tag in the door tell me this was an amateur resto-job. I did not see anyone mention looking at the engine numbers either- Does it even have the correct distributor and cap? all the 3X2 system there? I see the air ride pump, is it still on air? For the price it SHOULD be on AIR RIDE..
Advice: Get someone to go look--- need to crawl around the car and look real close.
If you WANT a 59 Eldo, you will NEVER be satisfied with anything else--- Go For it!
They are around.. YES, many went over across the pond, but finding one over there is still not a bad idea. MOST of the REAL GOOD ones are already over there! So what if it costs 3 grand to get it back home. AND YES, there are trustworthy folks to be found anywhere to go inspect a car.
The car looks nice. Proper mats in the trunk, and has power trunk and pulldown too. Correct style tires that look like custom radials. I think it has climate control showing on the dash.
I am not far from Ramsey, about 2 hours. If you want the car inspected let me know.
Brian
rachlin@comcast.net
It is very rare for a 69-70 Cadillac to not have a/c. One of the adds you showed us had the a/c compressor removed, which is a huge red flag.
The options you want on 69/70 Cadillac are:
1. Tilt/telescoping wheel - look for lever behind turn signal lever, about 50% or so
2. power locks (power windows are std), 90% of the time
3. Passenger side mirror (correct one has two small holes on either side of stalk that have Allan screws), 25% or so
The above are highly desirable
4. Twilight sentinel (turns on lights when it gets dark) - very convenient 50% of the time
5. Cruise control 40% of the time, but in our area (DC Metro, with constant heavy traffic - worthless)
6. 40/60 dual comfort seats, nice because the front seats adjust individually, 20% of time
The above three are nice, but not essential
7. Auto headlight dimming (useless in our area with hills and heavy traffic), I never drive with brights on ever, or would be constantly changing them to the point where it would be more of a distraction than cell phone/texting
8. Auto leveling (more trouble than it is worth, almost a detriment-others will disagree, just my opinion)
Forgot: 9. Trunk release in glove box - very nice, 10. trunk pull down - good to have too
Then there are others, but those are the major ones.
When you test drive the car, it should drive really well, and rattle free. These are wonderful driving cars, which is one reason I bought mine.
Did I read your posts right that the Cadillac you buy will be outside in CA under cover?
Scot,
Thanks much for the info about options.
Either my SL 65 will have to sit out covered, or my daughter's new SL 550 or the classic Caddy.
It's a tough decision but I do live in SoCal so the weather is relatively moderate.
My SL 65 is 9 years old but it is a collector's edition- to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the SL series introduced in 1955.
1200 (not only 50 like the dealership told me) or so were produced, so it is relatively rare. But I did not pay a big premium, so no biggie.
My SL 65 is my daily driver but could be made showable with minimum investment. It has 95,000 miles but still looks newer. Everything works, never been in an accident, paint good, interior good, drives great, etc. All of these 50th anniversary SL 65s came loaded. I think moonroof was the only option (I did not get one, though).
These AMG 12 cylinder cars are not cheap to maintain. Next year my extended warranty insurance runs out but I still will keep the car. I hope I don't regret it. That last engine job was $7,000. They are like racehorses. You have to take them at high freeway speeds for an hour once a month to avoid mechanical problems.
Brian,
I E mailed on that blue and tan Caddy. So far, no reply. I could not find a tel.# to call. But that is the color for me. Everybody has red but that one is really striking. But it may not even be available. I like the beauty and rarity of the color combo. If it came along loaded, in good condition and not overpriced, I would definitely take the leap.
The modern cars are much more durable parked outside. My one year old car had to sit outside for a couple years until I added a detached garage on my property in VA. It is now inside the garage and looks like it always has been. Probably the 95k miles MB could suffer minimal depreciation outside, whereas the 40 year old Cadillac (or any other 40 year old car in great condition) will not hold up well in the exposed weather, even in CA (sun does the damage too). It would be nearly impossible to justify parking a great condition 1959 Cadillac outside even in CA.
All cars should be driven once a week minimum and on the highway during the trip. Yes some will not seem problematic if you don't, but they are better if you do.
My 1970 Cadillacs all get driven every week all year, except maybe a two week pause every once and a while in February. In summer they are daily drivers and my truck sits unused, but on rainy days.
Yeah, it's a shame I don't have at least a four bay garage. We just cleaned out the third bay and my daughter will be parking there. But she's a weird kid. She likes to keep her new car in the driveway overnight. But when you don't pay for it, you don't appreciate it as much.
Then it works out, her car can remain outside and your classic Caddy can be garaged.
Yeah, we'll see. All cars are garaged for now, anyway.
I just got back from "Cars and Coffee"- a free car show held early every Saturday morning in Irvine from 6 AM-8AM.
Not a single Caddy. Mostly muscle cars. Two old 60s Lincoln's not in show quality condition, a mid 50s Packard in good shape and a late 50's Chrysler 300 in fairly good shape with the fins.
That's IT- out of maybe 300 cars. That's it for classic American luxury.
We have cars and coffee in Washington, DC area too (Great Falls, VA). It is mostly wealthy guys in their modern European sports cars (75%) and maybe 10% classics. I'm not a morning person, so rarely attend.
Anxious to read what car you buy, given your thorough research effort - expectations are high. Enjoy the process!
Have you abandoned the search for a 1959 Eldorado Biarritz altogether and are now pursuing a 69/70 DeVille convertible instead?
Just wondering...
Scot,
Happy to oblige. Getting a little frustrating, though. I am impatient but I think that I know what I want. Really stuck on blue with tan interior for now but will accept blue with white or red with white or tan.
Here's a sample of Cars and Coffee in Irvine, Ca. For those who don't know, Irvine is the quintessential upper-middle class Orange County city. Very clean, very professional and with lots of money and lots of expensive cars.
As you can see, the emphasis appears to be on muscle and speed (This You Tube video is from 2008).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-CoGPEYKD0
Eric,
No, I have not given up completely on the '59, but there is something suspect about every '59 convertible I have seen or the price is crazy. ! don't want to spend $150 k for a 62 series- even a nice one.
I was just thinking about all of the money that I have blown on bad investments over the years and I thought I may as well get something for my money- so, why not a '59 Biarritz? I have blown more than that on one bad investment (I have also made a few good investments too ;)).
This one looks pretty good. SOLD, though.
I like the color and the options. But I thought San Mateo red was the red color for 1969 AND 1970.
Was this Firehorn red also offered?
Also, are the hub caps original?
http://www.collectorcarads.com/Cadillac-DeVille/57550
That car is sold. the seller did not know much about Cadillacs you can tell by the way the advertisement is written, and that happens all the time.
The wire wheel covers are not original, but that is easily cured, and not an issue usually unless the rims are different and then you could be into a slight can of worms but that is unlikely.
The red paint on the car looks correct and the shade that san Mateo red would be. I think the seller just got the name of the color wrong. Firethorn red was a color later offered in the 1975-6 model years I think (second shade of red) that had a strong brown color content - very nice color.
Given that garage space is not 100% and the 1959's are very pricy, it may be best to buy a 1969 or 1970 Cadillac. When you pull up in a drop top Cadillac (from 1959 thru 1976) you make a statement and really don't think will be much different as perceived by the general public if it is a 1960 or 1970 Cadillac. If I drove up to my neighbor in a 1967 Lincoln 4 door convertible in red, same as my Cadillac with top up, they would say "Why don't you drop the top on your Cadillac?"(not even recognizing it was a different car entirely). I was driving a friends 1975 Fleetwood and my other neighbor said, why not drop the top? People ask all the time if my 1970 Cadillac is a 1959 (the most commonly guessed year, and then they say how they like the fins on my 1970).
If you are looking for the wow factor:
In the Cadillac crowd, need to buy the 59
In the public crowd, any Cadillac convertible 1976 and older will do.
All these Cadillacs are really a joy to drive. I don't need to drive anywhere today and the weather is nice, now I'm trying to figure out an excuse to drive somewhere.
Believe me, the crowds know it when you have a '59 - even though they might not know the year.
Whenever someone stopped in where I had my two black Coupe deVilles a '59 & a '62 parked side -by-side, nobody, I mean nobody even noticed the '62 - it may well have been a Passat - parked next to that '59! ;D
Middle of page 3 posts about Marc (they spelled it with a k) and his alleged bad sale of a 59 Caddy... Marc called me today after discovering this post thru friends in this club.
He denies that he sold this car out of the Country. I know Marc, and he is a direct person, I don't see him lying to my face. There is a lot of good and bad information out there on the internet. There are two sides to every story.
The acid test is go see the car! Go drive the car. There is no substitute.
Anyway, like previous posts read, go see the car and have it inspected if you are not familiar with the model. Any car purchased without having it inspected by a qualified and knowledgeable person is seemingly unwise.
What one person calls a driver another calls junk. What one person calls OK may be mint to another. Go see the car and have it inspected. Based on your questions this post alone will not be enough written to make you knowledgeable enough and you need it inspected.
Also drive the car. You may or may not like the way it drives. I had a 65 Thunderbird w/390 and a 68 Thunderbird w/429. No question the 68 Thunderbird (body on frame) drove immensely better than the 65 (uni-body) and both were family owned known history. Yet the 65 is more valuable and way cooler looking.
Yeah and by the way go see the car and drive it. It will speak for itself.
If the 1962 caddy was alone it would have drawn a crowd. Yes, with other Cadillacs the 59 is king. 1962 is my favorite year for looks.
In driving my 1970 Cadillac over 30k miles in the last nine years, except at Cadillac shows, I have never encountered another Cadillac convertible in public and it always enjoys the most attention of any car in the surrounding area. Even at Cadillac shows it will draw more attention than most closed body Cadillacs, even a 59.
Any Cadillac Convertible 1976 or older will draw a crowd, waves, thumbs up and honks everywhere you drive - like being a parade.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on August 03, 2014, 12:20:44 PM
Any Cadillac Convertible 1976 or older will draw a crowd, waves, thumbs up and honks everywhere you drive - like being a parade.
Yes. 8)
I agree. Convertibles are magic- especially with the right color combo!
Regarding buying a car without driving it: that won't happen.
I have airline miles so I can fly anywhere in the country for free, but before I make the trip, I will look at lots of pics and ask lots of questions. If they don't want to answer my questions, I'll pass on the car- no matter how good it looks on the net.
If it's local, it will be a lot easier, though.
I notice that "real deal" Persian Sand Biarritz '59 is still available for $145 k in Maryland, but I understand the Seller may not be the most honest of chaps, so I'll pass.
I also noticed that when I ask for additional information, compliance is rare. So I move on.
Ideally, I will find a collector with a solid car who is willing to sell for a reasonable price or a long-time owner, like my wife's grandfather, who babied his car for many years and it was sold as part of his estate. Whoever bought that old Lincoln got a good, well-cared for car. If it had been a convertible with suicide doors, I would have bought it.
The 59 Caddy in MD in Persian Sand is being sold by a guy that was trashed on page three of this post that I defended on page 8. Sounds like a 69 or 70 is more where you are headed. If you want a 59 call him and find out for yourself, and most important let the car speak for itself.
Scot,
I did not see where you defended this guy.
The interior is not original- nor restored with authenticity. With only one pic- at the best angle I am sure- he must not have much good to show.
Anyone who is trying to sell a $145,000 car and only shows one pic is immediately suspect.
If I had a great car, I would show multiple pics- proudly- and close ups too.
All of the mint, or near mint cars show many, many pics with close-ups. I have seen as many as 65 for one car online.
I spoke to the guy and after that, I lost interest. He has a great '59 Biarritz, but won't part with it.
My defense of Marc, the seller of the 59 Eldorado with one picture is on page 8 (made at 10:14am est), where I mention he called me upset about the post on page three of this discussion.
Some people market different than others. I like you would post many pictures, he evidently feels that one picture will entice a call and possible sale. Maybe he feels some of the value is in the movie history, not that I agree with that perspective of valuation. You have made the decision that 145k and incorrect interior is a no sale for a car 3,000 miles away.
I fixed my convertible top switch today and changed the oil - had a blast!, that is my golf.
CA is a car haven, got to think that there is a car near you that will make you happy. If we can be of any help, you know where to find us.
I may have lost what happened but what is the connect between the 59 and the 70?
If you don't want to wait for the right Biarritz to come along why not just go for a pristine series 62?
I don't think you would need to spend 145k
I examined the "Tin Men" '59 EBZ at Hershey last fall.
I have no idea how much the movie association may add to the value but setting that aside, I would not place a $145K valuation just as it stands on its own - without going into detail.
FWIW - A 3x Persian Sand EBZ that had been owned by a prominent CLC member, which also had been in his family since new. Aside of a single refinish, the car was all original right down to the convertible top with <30,000 miles IIRC, in #2/2- condition. Car was sold for $130K within the last 5 years or so.
Market probably higher since then so possibly $150K today or better - but the car was also in a very different league than the Tin Men car, conditionwise.
A completely concur with Jim: It would be to the OP's advantage to keep his field as open as possible in search for '59 Cadillac treasure and not limit himself to Biarritz. A '59 Series 62 convertible has 99% the appeal, far less potential for issues & other irritants, every bit as collectible, desirable and potential for appreciation - as a Biarritz. AND it costs significantly less.
Unless I were filthy rich, I would not want one.
Eric,
I don't know what your definition of "filthy rich" is but I seriously doubt if I would make the cut. Personally, I have always been attracted to top-of-the-line cars.
The quality, and yes the status too, I must admit.
Tooling down the road in "the best" has always been part of the pleasure of car ownership for me.
Re: the '59 Caddy.....If a great 62 series came along at a good price, I would go for it. But, I am under the possibly mistaken impression that a Biarritz would be a better investment. If this is the case, I could justify the higher price. If not, it would be easier to go for the 62 series.
I really am not interested in a car with incorrect interior, incorrect body plate rivets, etc. "Movie" car is nice to boast about but I would not pay more for it. It does not have to be a collector's trophy car but this would be preferable. Also there are limits to what I am willing to pay. If that '70 that the collector was selling was the right color, I would have bought it. I think it would be enjoyable to own a collectable Caddy and go to the meets and I would not mind wading into it at a much lower price point. Not as great, no, but still fun and for a fraction of the price.
I think that I am being quite reasonable. I just want a good, solid, original or faithfully restored, no BS car in excellent condition and I am willing to pay a far price for it.
I would rather show up in a pristine '69 or '70 over a hackneyed '59 Biarritz any day of the week.
If there's any evidence that the appreciation potential of a Biarritz is significantly higher than a S 62 convertible, I sure haven't seen it.
In fact, investment rate of return of standard series '59 Cadillac models have outpaced that of premuim models, over the past decade or so: Today, a '59 Biarritz still changes hands for roughly the same money it did back in 2001 while plain sedans and coupes have more than doubled during that period. 60 Specials, Series 75s, hearses and ambulances? Don't ask.
Being in a movie is just like low mileage: It only helps if the condition is right. If not, it means very little.
Speaking for myself, I would take a pristine low mileage mint original '59 Series 62 Sedan over a butchered '59 Biarritz, any time, any day of the week - if I had to own one or the other. But that's just me.
Scott, if you a referring to the post I made which now appears to have been removed , I am more than happy to dig out the paper work from the importer scan it & email it to you or anyone else that wants to see it. He should know the world is a very small place & these types of things will eventually catch up & bite . I have had several emails from around the world with people experiencing similar things from him. By the way I am still waiting several years for my money that the State Attorneys Generals office ordered him to pay. It is so frustrating how posts get removed I was not going to post anymore on this forum because of this reason but I had to reply to this.
Grant, hate to hear you may decline future postings. Not sure why people are afraid of truth or now won't even have the ability to judge freely based on information provided here. Kinda makes you wonder. Always two sides to every story, apparently yours has been silenced, which is unfortunate.
regarding the pristine 27k mile 59 Biarritz,I own it since 07,have never driven it,do not fit in it with the bucket seats,car is more art than vehicle.
took 25 years to buy the car
now finally getting close to buying red original 57 imperial with 35k that I have been after for over 30 years,it also will be preserved,not driven
my drivers were always 69 and 70 low mile sharp originals,by far the best driving big cars ever,and I have had them all 1000 times over
right now they are just way overpriced,a few years back the blue and tan had no buyers at 10500,i paid 10 sold to my buddy that went thru it and won all the plastic trophy's,decent driver should exist around 15-18 grand,then just go thru your brakes,front end,etc when I would put a car on the road,i went thru all running gear,parts are cheap and all you need is a basic tool set
Grant,
Yes, sorry about your post being taken down, my e-mail is rscotm@cox.net. Please send me the information you offered in your post made at 5:51pm today. I would like to know the truth good or bad.
wrefakis,
Regarding the 59 Eldorado, does it get exercised in any way so it retains mechanicals? What do you mean you don't fit in it? This is a huge car.
You know I agree the 69 and 70 Cadillacs are wonderful driving cars, just returned from going out to dinner in mine tonight.
Sorry it took 8 pages of posts and a dozen answers from me before I write to you- there is a "Want to Buy" section of this forum. Type in what you want to buy and you will be contacted.
Personally, I don't understand having a great car and never driving it. When I bought my SL65 , it was 2 years old and had 5900 original miles and was basically a new car. I guess the first owner kept it in the garage and drove it on weekends.
Not me. I drive it every day.
A '59 would not be a daily driver, but it would be fun to drive on weekends.
Scot,
I believe that I put in a "wanted" ad for the '59 Biarritz but I will also put in a "wanted" for a 62 series as well as the '69 and '70.
I agree that sometimes finding the 'right' car can take time, but those that invest time and effort are often rewarded with cars they enjoy and a sense of personal satisfaction.
I would encourage you to keep up the search, and maybe consider getting engaged in the collector car culture here in So Cal as a means of expediting the process. There is a great resource online here: http://www.socalcarculture.com/events.html which lists many of the weekly goings-on locally.
I am just up the road in Newport Beach, and we are pretty fortunate when it comes to local events and the ability to come across interesting cars on the road year-round. I might recommend checking out the upcoming Enderle Center show in Tustin, as I have seen 59 Cadillacs there at past events. You may also want to attend the Cadillac-specific shows, such as this one from earlier this year: https://www.flickr.com/photos/socalcarculture/sets/72157641727357924/.
I am currently a 60 Buick owner (and frequent driver), but we had a 60 Fleetwood when I was growing up and I spent a lot of time in/under/around it and other 59/60 GM cars in my teenage years. I'm certainly no expert, but if you ever need a second set of eyes to take a look at a local car, please feel free to PM me here. Best of luck with your search.
Shortimer,
Thanks for the offer.
I love car shows and I love classic American luxury cars most of all. I am looking forward to the day that I can be part of the show and not just a spectator.
59 Biarritz,why do I not drive it?
try sitting in a bucket seat car if you are over 6 feet tall,not going to work and I am 6.5 260 the shop manual even provides information on how to move seat back
all my cars are serviced and kept in perfect condition,i am a preservationist ,why do people pay 80 million for paintings?
the real reason I do not even use a 69/70 as a driver. the last thing I want is to be noticed,or hounded at every stop light. as for a late model Benz comparison to a one of a kind antique,i can buy those with one phone call,but in the world,and yes I do have files on all known survivors,there are not 5 good original 59's left and none that will be for sale anytime soon
69-70 still best choice for drivers
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on August 04, 2014, 09:27:25 PM
wrefakis,
Regarding the 59 Eldorado, does it get exercised in any way so it retains mechanicals? What do you mean you don't fit in it? This is a huge car.
You know I agree the 69 and 70 Cadillacs are wonderful driving cars, just returned from going out to dinner in mine tonight.
The car is huge; legroom is far less generous. I'm only 5' 9" and the power seat in a '59 needs to be adjusted rearmost even for me.
Also, bucket seat cars have only 2-way driver's seat, passenger seat position is fixed.
No question about it, ride, handling, performance and comfort are vastly improved, post-59/60.
69/70 convertibles are the most functionally refined, being the last of the RWD convertible format.
wrefakis,
Yes, I bet you are right 5 real 1959 Eldorados remaining. Thanks for preserving one of them. On the painting/car analysis, I think cars should generally be driven, but when there are only 5 of one model remaining I guess not.
To each their own, it is so fun for me when people approach me at every stop light in my 1970 Cadillac with top down and all. I never drive it when I'm in a rush. Many non-car/non-Cadillac people think my 1970 Cadillac is an Eldorado, many think it is a 59, and other crazy complimentary things (However they all know it is a Cadillac). I use it for my business too and it is part of my brand. My clients all know that I drive a red Caddy drop top on nice days. Everyone has a way of enjoying their Cadillac and the club has room for everyone.
And yes you are right, people have fawned all over my 1970 Cadillac parked next to a 100k MB drop top in a parking lot as if the MB was a ten year old weathered Toyota.
Thanks again for preserving the 59 Eldorado,
Scot
Eric, I'm the same height and I agree on the seat adjustment. It is better than some other cars of the 50's however. 59 Impala, seat all the way back and I still feel nearly crushed by the steering wheel. Put the seat all the way up and you -are- crushed by the steering wheel. Not sure why they were built like that.
Ride/handling/performance I'm certain is better as time went on but I don't want to make anyone think the 59 is uncomfortable to use as a normal car, or be worried about lack of functionality.
I took mine on a camping trip over the weekend with a friend. 170 miles each way, top down, cruising at 85-90mph the entire way and it averaged 14.4mpg. My friend fell asleep on the way home and when he woke up he kept saying he couldn't believe how nice it was on the road and we should just cruise it to Vegas ;D Acceleration is great, brakes work great and can still take most off ramps at 40-45mph.
Here's a pic of arriving at the camp site on the Wisconsin river. Good times!
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1052.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs460%2FIINNTTMMDD88%2F59-camping_zpse0ce3463.jpg&hash=d588bd0603e7c289cc6ebe12f4346c2a5443488f)
wrefakis, Eric
You don't really drive a Mercedes to attract attention. My SL 65 looks just like the SL 550 that costs half as much and also resembles the far, far cheaper SLK.
Besides that, Laguna Niguel is filled with Mercedes Benzs- so no one takes a second look.
You drive a Merc because YOU appreciate the quality and you know that it is one of the finest cars produced.
For the same price, I could have gotten a Ferrari and attracted lots of attention. But reliability is important to me in a daily driver and my SL65 is expensive enough to maintain and it is tame enough to be a good daily driver as well.
The Caddy, though, is a show stopper and it would be much more fun to own.
For the '59, I don't require a museum piece but I would like to have a faithfully restored car in excellent or, at least, very good condition. If the price is right, I could afford to fix it up into very good or excellent condition.
Wrefakis,
Your remarks were discouraging.
Are you saying that there are only 5 fully original '59 Biarritzs in the world that are fully original and in mint condition?
Why could one not buy a lesser car and restore it into museum condition?
Not sure I follow you.
BTW, I am almost as good with faithful restorations as I am with original condition.
??? I never mentioned M-B...
Anyway, there can't be much more than a handful or two of 1959 EBZ in condition #2 in 100% unrestored condition extant. (Original that is excepting tires, battery, hoses, belts etc..)
Even Bill's car has been repainted and that was the best '59 EBZ he could find after looking 25 years.
Took me 25 years just to find a humble '77 CdV -but in the colors I always wanted in mint original condition with very low mileage.
As far as buying a lesser car and restoring to museum condition - well that's whole 'nother story.
Eric,
Well, then, I am definitely willing to "cut corners" if a faithfully restored car is cutting corners.
I would be more than happy with such a car- "faithfully" being the operative word.
I don't require the best in the world- one of the better ones will do.
BTW, I saw a red '59 convertible, I believe, cruising around here in Laguna Niguel a few years back. I almost followed to talk to the driver but decided against it.
But I serious doubt if he would have sold it.
there are no 100% original 59 Biarritz period
the reason I can say there so few good ones left is because I have chased them since the 70's and have files on all known survivors
to do one to my 97% standards starting with a good car would cost $200k plus the car
at best there are 5 really good unrestored ones,and none are 100% original
there should be some of the bright red Canada fakes around to use as a driver
over next 6 months there should be at least 10 59 Biarritz for sale,junky ones at stupid $$$ , the reason I seem sour on many of the cars and claims made by recent owners is that I have files on them pre dating current ownership,so I may know a bit more about the cars than they do
buy any 59 vert leave it out,enjoy it its a better deal than some crap s550 for 115k that's 60k in 2 years
A new loaded S 550 with upgraded Bentley-like interior is closer to $150 K (ask me how I know LOL). I would not call it "crap" but a good investment it is NOT.
I am really not up for $200 k plus the car. Could I do it? Yes (if my wife would not have a heart attack), but I am not up for it.
I would be happy with something less.
I hate to say this,but if you just want a fun big cruiser you can buy a low mile 76 for mid teens and it even runs on modern gas, a good 59 eldo comes up very rarely and should really be preserved,you will never enjoy a glued together junk,76 might be an option
Amerkinsch,
Unless you have restored difficult cars before do not take on a restoration of a 1959 Eldorado, the details will kill you. 200k (where you just write checks no work yourself) in restoration costs would be a dream outcome if it came out perfect. If I could restore a 59 Eldorado for 200k plus cost of core car, I would buy one.
Everyone thinks they can restore a car who has not done it before, and their cost and time estimate is usually a third to half of what is actually required. One guy spent 5k just to have a clock manufactured to duplicate the clock in the back seat of a V16 Cadillac. If you undertake a restoration I will never say I told you so, but will only wish you well.
I restored the "rag joint" on my 1970 Cadillac (the part that joins steering gear to column) and it took 8 hours - that is a $400 cost minimum (in CA probably $800). Restoration cannot be done without great expense!
The most economical purchase is to buy the best condition car you can comfortably afford.
boy,aint that the truth!!!
Which brings up to the question?????- what about smogging a '69-70 Caddy in California?
Will it run on conventional unleaded gas?
What about a '59?
wrefakis,
Why a 1976 versus a '69-'70?
These cars run higher compressions which require the higher octane Unleaded.
The '59 is around 10.5 to 1, and the '69/'70 are around the same.
Bruce. >:D
My 1970 Cadillacs are set to factory timing specs (10.5 to 1 compression ratio) and they run perfectly on pump gas. I use premium, and have not tried regular. No pings or knocks even on steep hills accelerating at highway speeds. Often vacuum leaks cause knocks and that is confused with the gas not being adequate. The only non stock thing on one is the electronic ignition. The other with points and condenser runs perfectly too. The one has a valve job with hardened seats for unleaded the other does not, but they both run fine.
In 1970 Cadillac sold cars in CA, and so you should be able to run them there. Granted if CA checks emissions via testing then you may need to convert your car to CA standards of 1970, which should not be difficult. There are a lot of 1970 Cars driving around in CA and it seems likely this is a curable issue.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on August 05, 2014, 11:13:34 PM
My 1970 Cadillacs are set to factory timing specs (10.5 to 1 compression ratio) and they run perfectly on pump gas. I use premium, and have not tried regular.
The motors in 1970 had an advertised compression ratio of 10 to 1. Word on the street is that 1970 compression was really 9.3 to one, which still requires the use of premium fuel. Just had my motor rebuilt by MTS, they brought it up to a true 10 to 1 and Marty recommended using 93 octane. My motor is living fine on 93 octane pump gas. I believe the 1969 motors had an advertised compression ratio of 10.5 to 1.
That was back in the day where manufacturers weren't exactly truthful (like they are today!) about things like horsepower, torque etc. I highly doubt a factory 472 had 375 horses and 525 foot pounds of torque. Anyone ever dyno a factory motor or know what the results were?
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on August 05, 2014, 07:56:16 PM
Amerkinsch,
Unless you have restored difficult cars before do not take on a restoration of a 1959 Eldorado, the details will kill you. 200k (where you just write checks no work yourself) in restoration costs would be a dream outcome if it came out perfect. If I could restore a 59 Eldorado for 200k plus cost of core car, I would buy one.
Everyone thinks they can restore a car who has not done it before, and their cost and time estimate is usually a third to half of what is actually required.
The most economical purchase is to buy the best.
Amen.
do not mean to offend anyone,but unless you have driven these cars prior to 1973 or run one on leaded 110 race gas, you do not know what the car should run like.
you might also note that gm stated that using a fuel to low in octane rating could cause engine damage and void the warranty,this statement was made when regular was 93 and leaded
because the engine has 525 and then some even at 60% of rated correct fuel power,in normal driving you will not feel anything
turn off elvis,put your top up,warm up your 472 and floor it , you will hear the pre ignition as engine goes above 2500 rpm and secondary carbs open up,you can also pick it up at very low speeds where engine lugs a bit
long before mts or any of this I ran my 69 sedan at the track with only carb and rear end mods got high 15,s out of it,trust me no 472 can or will ever run right on bio 93 unleaded
76 smog motor cars do run fine on 93 unleaded,and get all the same attention,have plenty of room and best thing is get a good one for 15 drive into ground sell for 5000 cheapest high since apple wine
Yes, that is right 10.0 to 1 compression ratio, not 10.5to 1. The factory shop manual lists factory bore and stroke to the thousands of an inch. You would think that stating the compression ratio correctly would be critical, and not a marketing move. Of course the top of the cylinder head can determine compression ratio too I know. I agree that the 375 hp and 525 lb-ft torque could be marketing. I'm very picky about how my car runs and it does not knock or ping under any driving conditions.
However, since it is not a racer and it has good power unless I want to exercise the car the passing gear and secondaries on carb are never used. It sure seams powerful. The rating of horsepower changed in 1972 or so (after 1970 for sure) where gross horsepower was advertised in 1970 and by 1976 net horsepower was advertised. MTS explained that the most powerful 472/500 Caddy engine (1968 thru 1970 @ 375/400hp) and the lowest rated (under 200 hp with 500 in 1976) test about 10% different on dyno. The main reason being compression ratio. The 10% reduction in power and added weight make the 1976 seem less powerful than the 1969. My 1995 Fleetwood RWD with LT1 motor rated at 260hp and 330lb-ft seems faster than my 1970 Cadillac. Still I think a good running 1976 Caddy is a powerful good running car.
As pointed out the 1976 Caddies are very nice and even more affordable than the 1970 and earlier Caddies.
I started driving when leaded premium gas was available driving in my 1965 and 1968 Thunderbirds. Since I got my first 1970 Cadillac in 2005 too much time has gone by to testify to a certainty if the cars ran better then than now. My 1970 Cadillac runs well enough for me to enjoy and not lament on the concept of "if only they made gas like in 1970".
Get yourself a Caddy now, as life is too short. Then you can chime in on all these forums with experience. You absolutely will make a mistake in buying it, so just accept that and hopefully it is not a big one. Even a low mileage original car has major issues if you want to drive it, which is the subject of another thread. The smallest mistake to make is to overpay for a perfect car (my idea: original low mileage unmolested car with perfect original cosmetics and all low mileage lack of use issues corrected and driven 2,000 miles since then), because you will enjoy it.
used a 96 for a driver they feel quicker because they were,every part of the engine management systems were way better than the old vacuum quad carb,much more power got to the ground,
like I said,a 70 in normal use with the spark kicked back a bit will work, but the last few years I used a 68 for 5000 or so miles in the summer I always had to od on octane boost to shut down half the ping
76 on pump premium will be unaffected
as far as power again you may not recall,but in 68-70 the trend was to underrate hp not overrate,recall your 426 hemi that would put out more like 500
wrefakis,
My 1970 Cadillac is set right at 7.5 degrees timing per shop manual just before GN and drove it 1,200 miles (my radio does not work) and not one ping or knock. It ran so well it was an absolute pleasure. If you attend GN in 2015 we can take a ride in it.
My friend has a 1968 Cadillac that he says pings and I set the timing per shop manual and we got a lot of problems resolved (distributor was off two teeth from timing chain replacement by others, vacuum leaks abound, and other things). However at load his climate control system drops out and starts working again at low load (high vacuum), so I suspect there is another vacuum leak for us to uncover. Will keep you posted, but it could be like you write inadequate gasoline and the 10.5 to 1 compression ration may be too much.
Also, I think that for racing the trend was to under rate, but for other applications it was to over rate hp. My 65 Thunderbird did not seem like it had 300 hp, yet my heavier 1968 Thunderbird with 360hp rated 429 (11 to 1 comp ratio-never pinged) seemed faster than my Dad's 1970 Olds 442 w/455 and 370hp. In the mid 1970's and thru the 1980's trend was to way under rate hp, look at the lower rpm ratings used to establish horsepower (190hp 500 caddy engine in 76-no way).
Will let you know on the 68 Caddy pinging.
owned over 100 70's since 71 had pre ignition in every one, used to put the hei distributors in,helped a bit,drove myself nuts with this 35 years back
wrekfakis,
Vacuum leaks cause pre ignition more than low octane fuel. Those 1970 vacuum hoses were poor quality, the 1970 choke pull-off does not last, so could have been vacuum leaks. You make a very compelling case though, as I have only had three. Maybe the gas has improved since then, try to only buy Shell, Mobile, no off brands
Just checked out the '76 Devilles online.
The looks just don't appeal to me.
The '69 and '70s do.
I would not want to go later than 1970.
This car is in New York and has been for sale for a while.
22,000 miles seems unlikely.
The color doesn't do much for me, but what do you guys think?
http://www.carsforsale.com/used-cars-for-sale/1959-cadillac-eldoradobiarritz-longisland-ny-232845960
car is not in ny
car has been posted for sale here already
not original engine
look at photos of rear fenders
rough unit
Wrekakis is right, that 1959 Eldorado looks terrible. The rear fenders and engine compartment are not commensurate with a 100k car, except maybe if it was a genuine matching numbers 1970 Hemi Cuda Convertible.
When you first see the car you may buy you should say "Wow!", when I saw that advertisement more of a four letter word came to mind.
The only time I saw an Eldorado that I would buy the add read "1959 Cadillac Eldorado, no excuses", and the pictures were great. The price was 250k and it was gone from e-bay in a day.
So, the price for a cherry '59 Biarritz is a quarter mil? REALLY?
So I guess these 115k-150 K cars are junk?
There are no cherry 59 Eldorados for sale. Sometimes it takes a decade to track a car that you want and be there with the cash to buy it when the opportunity is there. Some with a cherry 59 Eldo who are into preserving the car may sell it only to someone they know will do the same. It may very tough to find one. Yes it appears the lesser 59 Eldos are 100k to 150k asking price.
Even the 69 and 70 cherry Cadillacs are not for sale right now on e-bay. There is a steel blue 1970 Cadillac DVC on e-bay now that looks good in the pictures and all the expensive stuff has been completed, paint, engine re-build, trans re-build, suspension re-build, paint, top, upholstery and etc. It has like 120k miles on it. The nice thing about it that since it is all redone nothing is original and you can just drive and enjoy it, redoing things as they wear out. That is the state of my red Caddy: impressive but all redone with 133k miles on it.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 06, 2014, 09:33:14 PM
So I guess these 115k-150 K cars are junk?
Just depends on the car. Some may have been nearly rusted in half parts cars brought back to life. Some are just older restorations and some have just enough work to look good in pictures.
Yes there are a handful of super nice originals and also high detail restorations but you will have to be very patient for one to come up for sale and even then, it may not be in the US.
I would love to own one, even less than perfect, as long as the price reflects the condition.
But, I agree and it has been mentioned that buying the best will always be cheapest in the long run, and the best investment.
Maybe you could try to trace down known "excellent" cars and make an offer to purchase.
Well, if I wait 25 years to find my dream car, if I am still here, I will be extremely old. Maybe too old to enjoy it.
If I am going to do this thing, the timeline is going to have to be something a bit more reasonable. Maybe 5 years at the most.
You are very patient. I'm 53 with three teenagers, one in college. Bought my first classic at age 45. many have bought younger (age 17 one guy I know), and many with more children. If it were me take the plunge now on an affordable classic and enjoy it. Given my circumstances the three 1970 Cadillacs are affordable and I don't have to be concerned with the financial aspect of owning, driving and enjoying them. You can still enjoy a classic now while search for the dream car, and half the fun is in the pursuit. If you buy a nice classic now and take good care of it, there should not be a problem when it needs to be sold (if it even needs to be) to accommodate your dream car.
Actually, I am not all that patient. In fact, looking is a pain in the butt. Not so much enjoying the search LOL.
By the way, someone mentioned a blue CDC on E bay.
Please post the link.
Also, what search words are you using?
I just type in "1970 Cadillac convertible for sale" in google and hit "search".
Is there a better way to get all of the cars for sale?
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 07, 2014, 01:07:44 PM
Well, if I wait 25 years to find my dream car, if I am still here, I will be extremely old. Maybe too old to enjoy it.
If I am going to do this thing, the timeline is going to have to be something a bit more reasonable. Maybe 5 years at the most.
If you're ok with not waiting it out for the best of the best maybe go and see a few cars that are out there in person.
I think the white one you first linked to on Hemmings is worth checking out if it's a solid car and could be bought for the right price, even if it does have a few flaws.
Well, I am not all that well off and if I were fortunate enough to be the owner of a rolling piece of art like the '59 Biarritz, believe me, I would buff it off with a baby diaper everyday ;).
This was on E Bay back in '12. Bidding stopped at $130k, I believe.
Nice looking triple black- at least from the photos.
http://jalopnik.com/5915106/1959-cadillac-eldorado-biarritz-convertible-is-one-rare-drop-top/
Sure, Ill take a nice '59 62 series convertible for 50-60k.
So, .....where is it?
I have not seen anything that reasonable.
Go on eBay and strike the motor icon on home page. Scroll down the manufacturer index and select Cadillac. Next select the year, in your case 1969 thru 1970 (don't bother with model). Then you will see what is available. I do this all the time as a virtual car show. You will see the steel blue 1970 restored convertible unless it is gone - strike the completed transactions to check it out.
Then search out 59's too. Article in Washington Post today - get vitamin D from sun or get dementia - buy a convertible.
How about one of these?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadillac-Eldorado-1960-CADILLAC-ELDORADO-BIARRITZ-CONVT-HEATHER-WHITE-FACT-A-C-FINEST-AVAILABLE-/390897474077?forcerrptr=true&hash=item5b034e1a1d&item=390897474077&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
Nice car, ('60 Eldo) but too much $$$$$. WAY TOO MUCH$$$$$$!!!!
Scot, I presume you are referring to the steel blue '70 with blue interior for $19,500. I prefer contrasting interior. I am not crazy about green but the green and white car looked better to me (except too much rust).
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 07, 2014, 11:21:23 PM
Nice car, ('60 Eldo) but too much $$$$$. WAY TOO MUCH$$$$$$!!!!
Agreed, it appears to be overpriced by about $150k to $200k. But it has a/c & cruise and looks nice.
To each their own, I always liked the look of steel blue with med to dark blue interior. Yes, that is the 1970 Cadillac convertible (DVC) for 19.5k that I was referring to. If I was looking for a wonderful driver, that looked like a nice possibility. Hope you find one you like. Better to buy a color you may not prefer than a rusted car. Others may love the color you did not, but know one will like the rust when it is time to sell and accommodate your dream car.
I could not find anything not to like about that 1960 Eldorado, and the 60's look better to me than the 59's. The price was high, but I bet it sells if it is as good as it looks. It is the ultimate, pull down trunk, a/c, bucket seat car.
Jumping into this hobby at the 59 Eldorado level is like entering the field of construction and taking on a replica of the Empire State Building as your first project. It might be better to buy a 69/70 Cadillac and then from there it can be a platform to the ultimate dream car. You will learn more than this column can teach you. Plus it will get you to Cadillac shows and in touch with the 59 Eldorado people.
Enjoy the search!
Not sure I want to compete with the crowd that demands perfection and will pay any price to get it. I will accept less than a 100 point car. It has to be original or properly restored, in very good to excellent condition and reasonably priced. The color combination also has to be acceptable.
Most car clubs are like this. The Chevy, Pontiac, Ford and Mopar crowd really demand perfection. The Cadillac, Lincoln, Buick clubs seem to be a little more forgiving. Keep searching, you will find it. Just keep in mind 100 point cars have issues too, almost no 40 plus year old cars operate perfectly and look as if new. The points thing is all opinion, my red Caddy scored 98.5 points one year at National Cadillac meet, and 95 the next year when the car did not materially change. Buy what makes you happy.
original or properly restored
good color combo
reasonable price
here is my check for 5 cars lol
wrefakis,
So, you are saying that my perimeters are unrealistic?
"Reasonable" is a subjective word. I realize that for a super nice car, you generally have to pay a premium.
But $300 k for even a nice '60 Eldo is not reasonable in my mind. If this was a one-of-a-kind and I was a "60 Eldo fan, maybe so. But other than that, the answer is NO.
I think the car is out there somewhere- or will be.
not at all, I will take 5 if I can find them (59's)
you can find really nice 69-70's that are worth 17-20 for sale around 25,try to buy close to 20,and be sure frame rails are good,no big downside here,and they run,ride and drive great
good 59 eldo's from 1967 to now around 10-15 surfaced and over half have been restored,thats why I see that as a tall order
I'll (gladly) take a restored '59 convertible as long as it was professionally done to original specs.
Almost as good as an original to me.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 07, 2014, 02:56:20 PM
This was on E Bay back in '12. Bidding stopped at $130k, I believe.
Nice looking triple black- at least from the photos.
http://jalopnik.com/5915106/1959-cadillac-eldorado-biarritz-convertible-is-one-rare-drop-top/
My mate bought that car about 2-3 years ago. It's now in Melbourne.
Quote from: eldo59 on August 09, 2014, 05:26:43 AM
My mate bought that car about 2-3 years ago. It's now in Melbourne.
Don't you guys have your own cars??? Leave ours alone!!!
;D ;D ;D
We only have Ford & Holden here and they will both be ceasing production by 2017.
So we won't have anything. :'( :'( :'(
Eldo,
How is the employment picture in Australia?
Here in the USA, wages are stagnant and prices are rising while the standard of living for working Americans is dropping. As is always the case, the very rich are getting richer.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 09, 2014, 02:17:39 PM
Eldo,
How is the employment picture in Australia?
Here in the USA, wages are stagnant and prices are rising while the standard of living for working Americans is dropping. As is always the case, the very rich are getting richer.
Says the man looking for a 59 Biarritz ;D
Didn't mean to get political... just wondering......
I know some people who are thinking about immigrating to Australia.
Not I.
I am too established here (family, real-estate, etc.).
Just because you may be able to afford an expensive car, doesn't mean you don't care about the American middle class...... just say'n.
But enough about that.. ...back to cars.........
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 09, 2014, 02:17:39 PM
Eldo,
How is the employment picture in Australia?
Here in the USA, wages are stagnant and prices are rising while the standard of living for working Americans is dropping. As is always the case, the very rich are getting richer.
Employment hear is nowhere near as good as our politician's lead us to believe. All you hear is another manufacturing plant closing for good.
All we have right now is the Chinese buying up Australia and our mining boom, which is OK for the short term.
I hate to see what will happen when this slows down and a large chunk of our country will be owned by foreigners.
While the very rich keep getting richer and the very poor getting even poorer, people somewhere in the middle like myself are becoming extinct.
"Employment hear is nowhere near as good as our politician's lead us to believe. All you hear is another manufacturing plant closing for good.
All we have right now is the Chinese buying up Australia and our mining boom, which is OK for the short term.
I hate to see what will happen when this slows down and a large chunk of our country will be owned by foreigners.
While the very rich keep getting richer and the very poor getting even poorer, people somewhere in the middle like myself are becoming extinct".
Yeah. we get the same BS from our politicians. 200,000 new jobs- yeah- but mostly paying minimum wage or slightly above.
The plan of the current administration seems to be this: allow the shipping of jobs to China, allow pretty much unlimited cheap labor immigration and give Americans food stamps to replace the jobs they lost or to subsidize their new lower-paying jobs. But the Republicans are just as bad, so I think we're pretty much toast until someone comes up with a better plan.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 09, 2014, 07:45:11 PM
Just because you may be able to afford an expensive car, doesn't mean you don't care about the American middle class...... just say'n.
Just messing with you as I found it a bi ironic but I do agree ;)
I have a general observation. Been following and adding to this thread since the beginning.
Am I the only one surprised there's not a decent and reasonably priced '59 eldo convertible for sale in the U.S.? I'm kinda stunned.
Chris,
Yes you could be the only one surprised that quality 1959 Eldorados are expensive. Cadillac made less than 1,500 of them 55 years ago, and they were not durable. Had to be 75% of them were used, enjoyed and scrapped. Then there is the law of supply and demand.
They cost over 200k to restore correctly. Sure there are many "restored" for less, but not ones you would want.
Heck, even the quality 1970 Cadillac convertibles are getting difficult to find. There have not been many for sale in Self Starter for a while now, and most of the ones on e-bay are tired originals with poor repaints and butchered mechanical work. They are not cheap to restore either.
Quote from: chrisntam on August 09, 2014, 10:21:09 PM
I have a general observation. Been following and adding to this thread since the beginning.
Am I the only one surprised there's not a decent and reasonably priced '59 eldo convertible for sale in the U.S.? I'm kinda stunned.
I'm not surprised honestly.
I've been keeping an eye out for a nice turbo 87 Buick limited for several years. 1,547 produced and nothing has come up that I would consider exceptional.
Now try to find a 55 year old car with 1,320 produced in exceptional condition at a reasonable price. Tough order to fill!!
Getting discouraging........
I would even consider a 1957 or '58 Biarritz. Those are pretty cars too.
(I imagine also finding a nice one for not a fortune is like finding hen's teeth).
If you were president in 1969 or 1970 and had to buy a car, you would be crazy not to have a Cadillac Convertible on the list, as it was the only American luxury convertible as advertised by Cadillac. Get one of those and start enjoying. The price of properly re-chroming all of the pieces on a 1958 Cadillac (any model), will likely exceed the cost of a 1970 Cadillac Convertible in good shape. It is more difficult to wade into the 1957-1960 Cadillac Eldorado buying crowd without a classic already - can't explain it, just is.
There are over 25,000 convertibles made by Cadillac in 1969 and 1970. By the early 1970's the writing was on the wall, convertibles are on their way out for good and these could be collectible. I think a greater percentage of convertibles were saved for that reason. For example mine stopped driving at 90k miles due to a cracked head and was parked sometime in the 90's and sat in a garage for a decade until it was rescued. If the same thing happened to a late 50's Caddy it may have been scrapped after the head cracked. There should be a fair number of these 1969/1970 Cadillacs out there in good shape available to buy, but they are starting to be recognized as valuable. You can still buy all the mechanical parts to keep it on the road at most common auto parts stores, such as Rock, NAPA, Advanced, and etc.
Getting discouraged already? You must be joking.
Finding the right vintage car takes years!
Patience, perseverance and preparedness are the keys my friend. Especially patience!
Buying just for the sake of buying is the worst thing you can do - no surer recipe for making a mistake - and a big dollar mistake at that.
Keep an eye on eBay, get out to a car auction or two, pay attention and get an education of what money will buy - that way you'll know what the market is. Observe as many examples as you can so you'll be better able to distinguish the good from the not-so-good. When the right one comes along, you'll know it.
As I said many times before, you should keep an eye on Series 62 convertibles - you stand a far better chance of getting a good one than limiting yourself to a Biarritz which are also considerably more troublesome. A buddy with a near mint 60 EBZ with 32K on the clock has just about had it with the car after all the BS the car has put him through. NOT a car I would recommend unless one is technically inclined and knowledgeable about tending the special equipment standard on Eldorados.
Eric,
Good point on discouragement. That is why I wrote early, entering the collector car hobby with a 59 Eldo is like entering the construction industry and building a full size replica of the Empire State Building. Start with something easier.
Good point the mechanical issues associated with the top end Cadillacs from 1957 thru 1960, the multiple carburetors and air suspensions systems standard (triple carbs on 59 and 60 Eldorados) were problematic even back in 1960.
The triple carbs can catch fire, the air suspension systems are complicated and the compressed air tank must be drained (everyone forgets to do this not in the know) and the tanks rust/leak, water gets in system, ruins things and etc. Even Donald Trump would pull his hair out if he did not have a great mechanic living in his garage who was familiar with the systems. These are almost one of those cars that it may be best to be mechanically gifted to own and operate. Plus disuse is a negative factor in longevity of these systems.
I heard the 1959 Eldorado from PA run when it drove off the trailer (it is a #2 one family low mileage bucket seat - great color combo) that was recent sold for 130k, and it sounded terrible. Probably it is a # 2 because of the mechanical systems, because cosmetically it was amazing.
The climate control systems on the 1964 thru 1976 Cadillacs drive our local members crazy sometimes, but it gives me comfort that I can repair the ones I own and have spare parts. People who do not have repair capability are often apprehensive. This would much worse on a 59 Eldorado.
If it were me and had to have a 59 Caddy drop top, I would probably buy a series 62 caddy convertible w/ac and add the Eldorado molding on the side - those look so beautiful. Then I would be done and everyone would hiss at me for modifying it.
The club has room for everyone and how they enjoy their Cadillac.
Scot,
It is funny you mentioned carburetor fires on Eldorados: For this is the second fire to afflict my buddy's '60, the first having occurred with the previous owner. That plus the dreaded A/S PITA that's he's been battling with this unforgiving system for the 16 years he's owned the thing and had received all sorts of NOS A/S parts along with the car when he bought it included 4 NOS air springs in the boxes. Can't count the times he's had it at the shop...can't even drive the thing without issue whenever the car goes out.
It's just like the beginning to A New Leaf with Walter Matthau when he's at the Ferrari dealership.
Service Tech: "How often do you take the car out Mr Graham?"
Matthau: "Two or three times a week."
"How often do you take in in for service?"
"Two or three times a week. Then it needs a tuneup every couple weeks so I don't get to drive it very much..."
In the final analysis, all a 59/60 Biarritz is - is a gussied up Series 62 convertible anyway. THERE I SAID IT! ;) ;D
Great if you want to park it in the garage and look at it - but for a car to take out on a whim at a moment's notice? Forget it.
The damn Space Shuttle gets prepped faster for takeoff than a 59/60 Eldorado for church two blocks away. ;D
I know a reasonable mechanic who works on classic cars but I am not a mechanic.
Sounds like I should avoid the '59 Eldo anyway with all of the problems.
Given what Scot and others have said, what about getting a '59 and updating the running gear? Meaning, put a late model, computer controlled (Cadillac) engine in it, along with a 4 speed automatic? Update the rear axle and do away with the air ride. In other words, old original car on the outside and interior, but a new (and highly dependable) car underneath? You'd have to find someone to fab all the mounts, but I'm sure it could be done. You'd have to ask yourself which is more important, an all original car that sounds like a pain in the arse to maintain or one you can get in a drive when and where you want. You can always save the running gear for when you sell it if the new owner want's to put it all back as it was. Not sure why anyone would want to put back a non-dependable set up though.
There was a time when I wanted a late '50's Nash Metropolitan convertible, until I researched that in stock, factory condition, they rode like crap on the highway and at most any speed, there were vibration issues.
In the end, it sounds like more education is being provided (part of the journey!). I had no idea about the carb & air ride suspension issues, so it's news to me as well.
And all you purists take it easy on me, no dog piling!
Quote from: chrisntam on August 10, 2014, 01:54:35 PM
what about getting a '59 and updating the running gear? Meaning, put a late model, computer controlled (Cadillac) engine in it, along with a 4 speed automatic? Update the rear axle and do away with the air ride. In other words, old original car on the outside and interior, but a new (and highly dependable) car underneath
This is how I'm building my Brougham but I must say that I'm really impressed with
how good a 59 is in stock form. Love driving it
Sounds good to me. Original on the outside and reliable on the inside.
Since the car would not be completely original, I would guess it could be had for something not stratospheric?
But then again, maybe not.
Eric,
Wished you lived near me in VA (22039), I specialize in fixing things that have been a nuisance for years. The fix on the 1960 Eldorado carb fires is to disable the two outer carbs and use the middle carb. Now you are operating a 390 with a two barrel carb instead of six, and a std 62 series has a 4 barrel carb. Got to be a better way.
Chris,
On the 59, I think the running gear and suspension are good enough to be an enjoyable dependable drive. Plus if you convert to modern running gear the trouble is in ten years it will not be modern and now the value is really down. If you retofit it w/472 then still value will be lowered considerably. One of the reasons 59's are nice is not only do they look cool, they drive decent too.
He already did that. It was the MIDDLE carb that leaked and caught fire on the '60.
Here's a [pre disaster] pic. Thankfully no exterior paint was harmed and the car still actually still ran - with burned plug wires!
Engine paint will need to be redone again but that's about all. Phew! Thank heavens it wasn't worse.
What a thing to happen on a 32,000 mile all original car.
Note the wood blocks to hold the car up! lol
There should be vows that you take before you are allowed to buy an old Cadillac. For better and for worse, in sickness and in health. Til debt us do part.
Baptism by fire is part of the initiation.....
The sane alternative is to buy less expensive , big glossy books with shiney pictures of the cars you would like to own.
I have 2 53 Eldos and a 57 Biarritz sitting in my shed. They have nearly broken me. Presently, I think i get more enjoyment from the Franklin mint Cadillac models that sit on my toilet wallshelf. Seems that whilst urinating is the only chance i get to relax these days.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on August 10, 2014, 04:18:09 PM
Plus if you convert to modern running gear the trouble is in ten years it will not be modern and now the value is really down.
Not necessarily (IMO). Yes it will be a 10 or 10+yr old EFI engine but it is still going to be as reliable and functional as the day you put it together.
And to the OP's question of could it be had for something not stratospheric? Not really, unless you built it. If I were going to build one I would do a Biarritz clone as Scot mentioned. Still big money. I'll probably have 250 into my Brougham.
Quote from: Quentin Hall on August 10, 2014, 05:17:13 PM
There should be vows that you take before you are allowed to buy an old Cadillac. For better and for worse, in sickness and in health. Til debt us do part.
Baptism by fire is part of the initiation.....
The sane alternative is to buy less expensive , big glossy books with shiney pictures of the cars you would like to own.
I have 2 53 Eldos and a 57 Biarritz sitting in my shed. They have nearly broken me. Presently, I think i get more enjoyment from the Franklin mint Cadillac models that sit on my toilet wallshelf. Seems that whilst urinating is the only chance i get to relax these days.
If I didn't have my beater 59 to drive I think I would go crazy. The ability of these old cars to incinerate cash and time is really unbelievable. Still love it though ;D
I love the 59 for what it is
the last of the real world war 2 victory parade floats
styled after the p 38 twin tail fighter,the little sister of the 3 tail constellation airliner
also in 59 the last of the big piston engine airliners,just like the 59 eldo,although it had 4 engines,the line pilots named it "best 3 motor airliner in the sky"
3 turbos on each engine,al kinds of problems just like tri power and air ride
that is the inspiration for my 59 research,i had the vins and history of all the constellations produced
this is why my driver would be a 69/70 best big metal cadi to drive and my every day car is an 05 town car
the 59 is art,but I would not want to use it
I pulled up a pic of a P 38, personally, I don't see much of a resemblance.
The '59 Caddy reminds me more of a rocket ship. It should be parked in Tomorrowland at Disneyland in front of the Monsanto "home of tomorrow" (a relic of 1950's D-land, demolished many years ago).
Drove the family out to dinner tonight in the red Caddy. My wife drove over so her hair would kept nice with top down and then I drove back so she could not have to restrain herself on the Chardonnay. Was an absolute joy to drive. It was a great night and struck up a conversation with the owner of a 67 Camero hardtop w/427, red also. Funny how car guys get along so well. Thumbs up, waves and etc during the drives. This is what it is all about.
Sounds like FUN!
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 10, 2014, 09:11:47 PM
I pulled up a pic of a P 38, personally, I don't see much of a resemblance.
The '59 Caddy reminds me more of a rocket ship. It should be parked in Tomorrowland at Disneyland in front of the Monsanto "home of tomorrow" (a relic of 1950's D-land, demolished many years ago).
The '48 Cadillac tailfin was inspired by the twin tail of the P 38; not so much the '59 which is widely regarded to have been designed as a direct reaction to the 1957 "Forward Look" Chrysler cars.
Airplanes were passe' by the late '50s - the jet age & space age was the new inspiration for automotive designers who were on top of their game. And yes, I could not agree more - I have always said 1959 - 1962 were the "rocketship" years.
A good friend here, Art Archambeault recently said 1959 is a milepost for [postwar] Cadillac - either pre '59 where styling became progressively more decadent or post '59 where styling progressively became more conservative.
1959 will always represent the pinnacle of bold, unashamed Cadillac styling. The car is a metaphor for everything that stood for American prosperity at its peak. The car is (or was) a personal yardstick for almost everyone who saw it when new and remains perhaps the single most recognizable American consumer product ever made.
There is no substitute for a 1959 Cadillac.
There is no substitute for a 1959 Cadillac.
Yep. I can remember when my aunt remarked that the fins made the '59 look "dated" (Of course also what made it famous).
If I had one, I think I would just sleep in the garage so it was the first thing I saw in the morning.
The '59 is truly my "dream boat".
Wish I had one (sniff, sniff) :(.
You'll find one - just be patient.
-Incidentally I just picked a "9" up myself - and it took me two years to find one up to snuff.
I also have a beautiful '62 CdV which I love but after once owning a '59, well...nothing is ever the same... ;D
Quote from: ericdev on August 11, 2014, 02:46:14 PM
-Incidentally I just picked a "9" up myself - and it took me two years to find one up to snuff.
Congrats! Need pics tho ;)
Maybe what you should do is buy a nice clean 59 of any body style.
Coupe, sedan, flattop, and drive it while you are looking for your dream Biarritz.
By doing so you will learn a lot about 59's and will know if you really want to make such a big financial investment.
You could buy a nice 59 coupe, a 70 DeVille convertible and have $100 grand left over. These cars will be worth at least what you paid and if you find the Biarritz you can sell them easy.
Hershey is coming up in October and that's a good place to look.
Just a suggestion.
Brian
Amerikanisch,
If you decide to travel to PA in October and search for a Caddy in Hershey there are a lot of people in our club that could meet with you and guide you through it as Cadillac experts. It is usually early October around the 8th and the days to attend for a serious high dollar car are Wednesday, Thurs, plus there is an auction Friday or Saturday - Google and you will know schedule. Weather is a factor, rainy Weds means don't bother. Several of my friends got a good deal on a Caddy up there.
Quote from: INTMD8 on August 11, 2014, 11:22:51 PM
Congrats! Need pics tho ;)
Thanks!
Hope to oblige soon in another thread.
nice 59 ebz at auburn auction aug 30 and its not even a fake!
Road trip! 8)
Here's a link to the '59:
http://www.auctionsamerica.com/events/feature-lots.cfm?SaleCode=AF14&ID=r0554&Order=runorder&feature=&collection=&grouping=&category=
here's a well optioned '70:
http://www.auctionsamerica.com/events/feature-lots.cfm?SaleCode=AF14&ID=r0460&Order=runorder&feature=&collection=&grouping=&category=
And a '60, but no pic yet:
http://www.auctionsamerica.com/events/feature-lots.cfm?SaleCode=AF14&ID=r0854&Order=runorder&feature=&collection=&grouping=&category=
I don't see cruise or air on the '59. Anyone else see or don't see anything? It does list the options it has....
Quote from: wrefakis on August 12, 2014, 05:28:06 PM
nice 59 ebz at auburn auction aug 30 and its not even a fake!
Nicest thing you've said about one yet!
AMERIKANISCH, better snatch that one up, looks gorgeous to me. Appears to be a fresh resto and at least as far as I can tell, someone really paid attention to the details.
Quote from: C.R. Patton II on July 14, 2014, 11:54:00 AM
Mr. Stewart
This is not a hobby for the poor or timid but the conscientious.
The Cadillacs of the Fifties is written by CLC Member Roy Schneider. He is an incomparable author of numerous automtive books. This gentleman painstakingly completed research on ALL of the Cadillac models for that DECADE so you and I can absorb.
The reason for the price is twofold. It is out of print and in demand.
I hope this information dissipates your trepidation to purchase and increase your knowledge. The vehicle you have chosen is a fine example of the Standard of the World. As a graduate of the University of Southern California I can testify that spending good money to learn is money well spent.
There are other automobile brands with bad quality and inexpensive products that may be commiserate to your objectives.
Was that last paragraph Really necessary??? ::)
Quote from: wrefakis on July 21, 2014, 09:48:13 AM
I have always loved, and collected 59's,but always drove 69 and 70. They were by far the best running full size cads,period.
You guys are leaving out the 1968 models.
It also has the 472, and had a much cooler looking rear bumper with full length tail lights and the reverse lights that came out in the lower part of the tail lights. 1968 introduced the shrouded mirrors (hard to find the correct right side though). The front grille with the double stacked lights is far nicer looking than a 1969 or 1970, and remember 1970 (&71) didn't even have Vs on the hood or trunk! The wood on ghe 1968 is real, not plastic, and lastly, it has the awesome front vent windows. 8)
I like all 3 years and think these were the epitome of the Cadillacs. no (or little) emissions (AIR can be eliminated in 68 or 70 with ease), and these were the last of the full power high compression engines. While 1971-72 ElDorado Convertibles look nice, the DeVille Convertibles are just much better cars. And yes my 1968 has a stand up hood ornament. I purposely installed it. >:D
This is a very interesting thread so far (I'm up to page 4). I hope Mr Stewart finds what he is looking for and if it a 68-70 DVC (I'll allow a 65-67 DVC as well) then he'll enjoy driving it much more than a 1959.
I found my 1968 in a 3 week old newspaper ad, so there's hope. Just be patient and don't take any seller BS. I can see you aren't, so that's good. I think sky blue (ok, Arctic Blue) with a dark blue interior and a white top is an ideal color combination for a DeVille Convertible. People are always asking me if this is the car from 48 hours. :P that was a 1963 and a POS.
Quote from: wrefakis on August 06, 2014, 09:09:10 AM
do not mean to offend anyone,but unless you have driven these cars prior to 1973 or run one on leaded 110 race gas, you do not know what the car should run like.
you might also note that gm stated that using a fuel to low in octane rating could cause engine damage and void the warranty,this statement was made when regular was 93 and leaded
because the engine has 525 and then some even at 60% of rated correct fuel power,in normal driving you will not feel anything
turn off elvis,put your top up,warm up your 472 and floor it , you will hear the pre ignition as engine goes above 2500 rpm and secondary carbs open up,you can also pick it up at very low speeds where engine lugs a bit
long before mts or any of this I ran my 69 sedan at the track with only carb and rear end mods got high 15,s out of it,trust me no 472 can or will ever run right on bio 93 unleaded
76 smog motor cars do run fine on 93 unleaded,and get all the same attention,have plenty of room and best thing is get a good one for 15 drive into ground sell for 5000 cheapest high since apple wine
That's right. Mine pings / knocks under hard acceleration. The cure is to mix in 110 octane. Not too much though, that stuff costs $10 per gallon! :o I can have the timing dropped back a bit, but I just listen for or feel the ping and back off if I detect it. I have all the original engine cast iron, dist, carb, trans & rear end, and I run DELCO points & condenser.
Just checking in from Vegas. That white Auburn Eldo looks good, just not wild about red interiors and prefer bucket seats. I had a 70s Eldo with red interior when I was young. Never did like it all that much. My friend called it a "pimpmobile". Red and white is okay, though.
Mike,
I have three 1970 Cadillacs and agree with you the 1968 is real nice, maybe better looking. When starting looking to buy a Caddy drop top wanted a 68, 69 or 70 for the RWD and high compression 472. I like the dash in a 68 by far better than a 69 or 70. The 1968 styling is also just a hair more appealing as well. The seats in the 69 and 70 are better than the 68. My car is timed at factory specs and runs real nice, never any pinging. The compression ratio is 10.0 to 1, instead of 10.5. The 1970 has a suspension and steering system common to 70-76 and the rear inspection plate on diff, plus no air pump. All in all it is a toss up for the 68-69 & 70
item one if you have color preferences on 59 eldo,good luck I hate Persian and hate buckets,yet that is what I have
item two I left off 68 because although they are my 4th favorite,and I have owned many,they were just not quite up to 69/70 in reliability,my first car at 17 was a 4 year old 68 with 33k miles and it was always in need
item 3 scott gotta love ya,but any factory original 472 will not run correctly on pump gas,engines modified down thru the years,who knows
My 1968 has the 1970 pulleys so no AIR pump or hoses. 8) Otherwise, I tried to keep it as original as possible in the rebuild, with the exception of braided AC and PS hoses, and a chrome 100 amp alternator. And a lot of Cadillac Dark Blue paint :P
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 13, 2014, 04:16:49 AM
That white Auburn Eldo looks good, just not wild about red interiors and prefer bucket seats.
Quote from: wrefakis on August 13, 2014, 08:44:29 AM
item one if you have color preferences on 59 eldo,good luck
Agreed.
Condition and history is the priority. You could always put a white interior in the car.
If it HAS to be excellent quality, buckets, favorite colors I think you may need a time machine ;D
wrekfakis,
I will count my blessings because my 1970 Caddy's do not ping with pump gas. One is 32k mile original. However, I will not doubt your testimony on this issue and just be happy with my results.
Agreed - condition comes first and as we say in the car business, "The used car factory is closed."
White car looks very nice but for that kind of coin, I'd be holding out for the most original I could find.
An original S 62 trumps a restored 'Ritz in my book, but that's just me...
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on August 13, 2014, 12:07:28 PM
wrekfakis,
I will count my blessings because my 1970 Caddy's do not ping with pump gas. One is 32k mile original. However, I will not doubt your testimony on this issue and just be happy with my results.
You're very fortunate Scot. If I don't step on it, mine doesn't ping or knock, but I do have to be a bit careful.
Mike,
I never have to step on it driving the 1970 Caddy, except to demonstrate power to friends. Driving all the way to NY then NH and back to VA never engaged passing gear. Never used secondaries unless they engaged going up a steep grade at 70mph. I'm a left lane try to never tailgate moving faster than 75% of the traffic top down highway driver. No way driving 50mph in right lane.
I see you have a 1996 RWD Brougham - nice car, drove my 1995 Brougham for 254k trouble free enjoyable miles. Sold it for 3k in 2005 and it looked great nothing wrong, just could not be using a ten year old car with a quarter million miles as a daily driver. I know-should never have sold it.
Guys,
I think I could be almost as content with a '59 series 62 as with a Biarritz.
Since I read that there were ten 62s manufactured for every Ritz in '59
Why are they asking over 100k for the 62s?
The price desparity doesn't make logical sense.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 13, 2014, 10:33:26 PM
Guys,
I think I could be almost as content with a '59 series 62 as with a Biarritz.
Since I read that there were ten 62s manufactured for every Ritz in '59
Why are they asking over 100k for the 62s?
The price desparity doesn't make logical sense.
It's the '59 mystique. Same thing with Winchester M1 rifles and carbines, $200 more (or higher) and they weren't usually even finished as well as the Springfield Armory examples.
Onto the cars. The GM heritage center has copies of the dealer data books form 1902 through 1974. Not the greatest quality scans, but there is a wealth of info.
I would grab the data book, get a hold of the 1959 color brochure, either the actual one or a good download, (there is a site with these but I have to look it up), and get an owners manual (ebay is usually a good source) right away. You can get a shop manual when you get the car, unless a nicely priced on becomes available.
These items will help you immensely in your search.
A cool link with an overview of 1958 thru 1975:
http://fleetwood75.net/
This is a dutch guy's site. It disappeared and I wrote him. He put it back up. Nice summary info on all the body styles.
GM Heritage Center:
http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-heritage-archive/vehicle-information-kits.html
Brochures site:
http://www.lov2xlr8.no/broch1.html
another:
http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/Cadillac/dirindex.html
and another:
http://www.tocmp.com/
Of course we be just as pleased if you were to settle on a 1968-70 DVC in the interim. ;)
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 13, 2014, 10:33:26 PM
Guys,
I think I could be almost as content with a '59 series 62 as with a Biarritz.
Since I read that there were ten 62s manufactured for every Ritz in '59
Why are they asking over 100k for the 62s?
The price desparity doesn't make logical sense.
I am not quite certain whether you are asking if the value disparity is too little or too great...
Also remember, "asking" is not the same as "getting".
For a top tier S 62 convertible, $100K is not unreasonable, especially if fine original. These days, a '59 Coupe deVille in #3 condition (restored - most haphazardly) have been changing hands in the low-40sK at those big hyped classic car auctions; very recently, a rodent of a CdV needing everything under the sun just made $24K (+8%) buyers premium at another.
Earlier this year in fact, Hemmings Classic Car magazine listed the '59 CdV as one of the top-10 collectible automobiles out of a list of 100 so that may have also played some role.
There's little doubt in my mind, the '59 Cadillac will be the Dusey of this century, or very near. There are relatively few to go around compared to the many who want one - and have the $$$ to satisfy their wishes.
Supply and demand, you are new to the hobby and what car do you want - a 59 Caddy.
The factor of a 1959 Cadillac series 62 being too close to the value of the Eldo is more the Eldo being less valuable than the series 62 being too valuable IMO. This is because many come to the conclusion you have in that a series 62 is almost as good, and an Eldo has mechanical issues the series 62 does not, such as triple carbs (fires) and air suspension failures.
I think the 59 Eldo stainless trim is beautiful, and aside from that the series 62 is better. Therefore if I had to have the ideal 59 is would be a series 62 convertible with exterior Eldo trim - not trying to fool anyone - just like the way it looks.
Note my 70, it has the dealer stainless rocker trim (all 8 pieces) looks better to me with it than without.
Well that's exactly right - many shy away from 59/60 Eldorado because of the "Eldissues".
I have an NADA Guide from 1966 which pegged 59/60 ELS & EBZ below that of their lower series counterparts. In fact the most valuable '59 Cadillac model in 1966 was the Coupe deVille! My father was a car dealer in the early '60s and said ragtops were cheap back then (on the used market). Nobody wanted 'em - everybody wanted the CdV.
It certainly would've taken some good foresight to special order your Eldo without 6 pack and A/S. I've often wondered if anybody did...
I don't know about factory orders to delete a/s, but the conversion to coil springs was pretty common back in the 60's. I've wondered how many of the cars still around are actually on working a/s. I specifically avoided a/s when shopping for my car (although it still has the compressor). I wasn't as worried about the tri-power. I keep a close eye on carb conditions, having already experienced a fire a few years back with my former '59 4 bbl.
Sorry, the 59 Eldo and 60 Eldo are the Kings Of The Road. My 1960 series 62 convertible was ordered with factory tri power, and I have a hard parade boot, but it's no Eldorado. 14,000 convertibles VS 1085 Eldorado's makes the Eldorado version quite rare and worth twice as much.
I think a 59 is worth two times the comparable 60 due to the differences in styling.
I think the air ride is a challenge and if the car is so equipped it's worth the hassle. I had a 60 that sat for 30 years on blocks and after getting the car back in running order the air ride worked perfectly.
I am hoping that the air ride in the 60 Seville I recently purchased will work when I get the car up and running. This one sat for about 15 years.
As far as carb fires, it's news to me. The center carb does all of the work 95% of the time. If it's not leaking, which any carb can do, the tri power poses no more threat of a carb fire than any other car.
Brian
Wrefakis,
While I am serious about making an acquisition, a $200+ k investment for a newbie may be a bit rash. Perhaps I should consider a more modest purchase with which to begin. A very nice 62 converted to look like a Biarritz is not out of the question as long as I am not paying the ritz price. If I am paying a ritz price- or near it, I may as well get the ritz. Also a '69 or '70 is not out of the question.
I would be interested to see what the white Auburn Eldo goes for out-the-door.
Regarding the Auburn ritz: how would you describe this car? A 100 point mint or something less? I know you cannot make a real determination without a personal inspection, but it seems that you have determined that it is, at least, "not a fake". So is it a good restoration or original?I would presume that the color and interior are according to original specs, at least? All numbers matching? The only option is the auto eye headlight dimmer (no A/C).
They are also auctioning '56 red ritz that looks nice as well.
In addition to the questions above, would the car's color hold the bidding down? For me, the color is somewhat bland. And along those lines, would a color change (repaint) reduce the value if it was changed to a more popular color? (It could always be changed back).
White/red leather is a pretty strong color combination in the market - I doubt that would impede bidder interest. I also doubt lack of a/c being much of a deterrent either - especially on a droptop.
Would a deviation from original colors per body plate negatively affect value? It depends on a lot of factors including what it was and what it is changed to. This assumes the choice of colors and materials chosen are OEM spec.
Needless to say, to refinish any car with excellent original paint would be sacrilege.
@Stewart,
I would not advise buying a clone.
@Brian,
Your analysis makes sense however carb fires seem to be disproportionately prevalent among 6 packs. I cannot account for the reason why. Remember, your skills and technical expertise put you in a much better position to tend these cars' special needs. :)
Quote from: ericdev on August 15, 2014, 08:37:08 AM
.......Your analysis makes sense however carb fires seem to be disproportionately prevalent among 6 packs. I cannot account for the reason why.
The reason why could most probably be summed up in the way these cars are now driven. They are babied, and the front and rear carbies simply don't get sufficient use, and eventually dry out, causing flooding, and it doesn't take long for a back-fire to light a flooded engine up.
These engines were meant to be used, and the triple carbies were there for performance, not cruising in slow motion.
Bruce. >:D
Adding 59 Biarritz trim to a 62 series is a VERY expensive proposition.
If you are not sure what you want and you are thinking of a 59 or a 70, these are very different cars. You should invest the time in looking at or driving each, perhaps at a classic car dealer within a day's drive of wherever you live. I am sure there are plenty in California.
Painting a 59 Biarritz a different color that original would be your choice, but for a quality paint job on one of these cars you might be looking at $10,000 to $15,000. And there's no such thing as a "paint job". One thing always leads to five more, chrome, trim, rubber, mechanicals, and if the car is taken apart for paint, forget about driving it for at least a year.
You are getting some good information here, but I think you should go look at some actual cars and report back with photos.
Brian
Hmmm... the fire in my buddy's '60 was caused by the center carb leaking...I dunno....
My secondary carbs get some use every time I drive the car. Too much fun making that big sucking sound not to get your foot in it.
Sure hope I never experience a fire. It will cook a while under that big air cleaner before I know it's lit. ANY car can have this happen. Especially FI 70's Seville's and Eldo's. I'd still rather drive a Cadillac on fire than a rice burner... >:D
Brian
Quote from: 76eldo on August 15, 2014, 08:45:07 AM
If you are not sure what you want and you are thinking of a 59 or a 70, these are very different cars.
You should invest the time in looking at or driving each, perhaps at a classic car dealer within a day's drive of wherever you live.
...and VERY different money! ;D
Agreed 100% with the getting hands-on experience suggestion. Also get out to some CLC events and classic car auctions couldn't hurt either.
Brian, you are blessed if you have not suffered Edlissues too much. Hope you get the Seville air suspension leak back issue fixed without much trouble. I think the primary problem with air ride was failure to drain tank during the early 60's. At the collector level Eldissues are not as problematic because these cars usually are driven under 1,000 miles a year, where a couple years of normal driving in the early 60's is a life time of driving in the collector world. Also people who want the 59 series 62, may want to drive them more.
All, Yes I agree a re-paint is 10 to 15k if you do a lot of it yourself. If you take parts off to paint as you should, figure at least a year. Yes adding Eldo trim to a series 62 is very expensive if you can even find the parts. If I had a solid series 62 that needed repainting and some(?) re-chroming, I would budget at least 25k, than another 7k for the stainless Eldo trim. Maybe another 5k for color change. This is such a grand car cannot cut corners.
Go out and lick some tires
Quote from: 49er on August 16, 2014, 09:46:11 AM
There is no other place on Earth I can think of where the depth of knowledge is greater or offered in such a a kind way. It seems to me its time to make a decision. Pick the year, since vacillation is evident. Find one and buy it. There comes a time.
I think it was suggested (back on page 7 ;) or somewhere way back off up in there) that the op get a '69/'70 to enjoy while he continues to hunt for the right '59 to come along. Unbeknownst to me, but known to all of you, decent '59 eldo verts don't exactly come up for sale too often, where as the '69/'70s are everywhere. I "think" that is the origin of the vacillation.
Amerikanisch,
Your going to make a mistake on the first classic car you buy. So would Einstein. It is best to go into this accepting that this will happen. When you first see a car you are considering buying, your first thought as you walk up to it should be Wow! If not, then maybe it is not the right car. You have too much information on this thread probably. Take the plunge and enjoy life more.
Here are fun experiences enjoying my red 1970 Cadillac that is the type you are missing out on:
1. I just turned 50 two days ago (I'm 53 now) and I am picking my 15 year old daughter up from school. It is a beautiful sunny day about an hour after school let out and there are about 100 high school kids outside within 100' of where my daughter was waiting. I pull in top down and enter the parking lot. Every student was cheering, raving, and it was the center of attention. My daughter is thoroughly embarrassed, but not me. We leave the parking lot and I'm loving that I have this car. A minute after we leave my daughter receives a text "What a great car, and your dad looks so young and cool". If a 15 year old girl says a Cadillac drop top makes a 50 year old look young and cool, I don't know what could be a better endorsement for entering the hobby.
2. I'm at the bank stopped at drive through (engine running smoothly at idle in park) making a deposit driving the red Caddy with top down. A hand touches my shoulder while I'm in the car waiting for the teller. I turn around and there is the beautiful women 20 years younger wanting to talk. I'm happily married and would never act on it. Maybe I thought too much of it. Still that would not happen in my Avalanche.
I'm sure we could all write stories like this. Others will write about what makes them happy about their Cadillac. It really is like driving in a parade every time. Now I know there are nicer more desirable Cadillacs in better shape than my red 1970 DeVille Convertible, thing is never ever have seen any of them during my trips ever in 9 years (30,000 miles), except at car shows. You will be noticed with almost any Caddy drop top with a back seat.
Your missing out as I write this. Buy a classic Cadillac and enjoy life more.
This thread has taken a few minor detours so I may as well ask here. For those who have driven both, do the tri power cars have noticeably stronger acceleration than the single 4bbl cars? Seems somewhat strange that they would want that complexity when you consider the kind of power a single carb can support.
Jim:
For many years I had a '59 60S with the Rochester 4 bbl; for the last year and a half I've had a 60 Seville with tri-power, and I would have to say there is a pretty significant difference in acceleration when you put your foot into it. To me, it feels like much more than a 20 hp difference. Part of it may be that the '60 is in better shape mechanically (although there was nothing wrong with the '59). But the Eldo feels like enjoys being driven that way, while the '59 felt more like a curmudgeonly old man when pushed like that; "hey, take it easy- What doctor think I am, a Corvette?"
Actually, two cars the same can perform totally differently. It all depends on how "well" each one was driven over its' life.
I have driven identical cars one was a meek and mild dog, and then the next one a greyhound.
Bruce. >:D
at the end of the day,we should all just buy and drive what we like, I sold my 68 because I did not want the attention it generated,and to me it was just another 68,my first car was a 68,but to a guy born in 78,its a cool antique from before he was born,and yes they do go nuts on you everywhere you go!
that said,late one summer night,i will still slip out in one for an invisible beach cruise!
I'd hate to think of the attention your '59 would get if the '68 attracted the amount you say. :o
Round these parts, a '68 Caddy is practically invisible, alas... :(
Here is a local car '59 62 series not too far away in Temecula, Ca.
It was a white with red and white interior and the restorer made it over in black with a white top.
They were asking $86k and then "best offer". Might not have been a bad deal but it had been on the market a long time before it finally sold.
Not sure about the authenticity of the restoration but it looks pretty good in the pics.
Comments?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1959-Cadillac-Series-62-Convertible-Full-Restoration-Gorgeous-/141339941866?forcerrptr=true&item=141339941866
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on August 16, 2014, 10:42:42 PM
Amerikanisch,
Your going to make a mistake on the first classic car you buy. So would Einstein. It is best to go into this accepting that this will happen. When you first see a car you are considering buying, your first thought as you walk up to it should be Wow! If not, then maybe it is not the right car. You have too much information on this thread probably. Take the plunge and enjoy life more.
Here are fun experiences enjoying my red 1970 Cadillac that is the type you are missing out on:
1. I just turned 50 two days ago (I'm 53 now) and I am picking my 15 year old daughter up from school. It is a beautiful sunny day about an hour after school let out and there are about 100 high school kids outside within 100' of where my daughter was waiting. I pull in top down and enter the parking lot. Every student was cheering, raving, and it was the center of attention. My daughter is thoroughly embarrassed, but not me. We leave the parking lot and I'm loving that I have this car. A minute after we leave my daughter receives a text "What a great car, and your dad looks so young and cool". If a 15 year old girl says a Cadillac drop top makes a 50 year old look young and cool, I don't know what could be a better endorsement for entering the hobby.
2. I'm at the bank stopped at drive through (engine running smoothly at idle in park) making a deposit driving the red Caddy with top down. A hand touches my shoulder while I'm in the car waiting for the teller. I turn around and there is the beautiful women 20 years younger wanting to talk. I'm happily married and would never act on it. Maybe I thought too much of it. Still that would not happen in my Avalanche.
I'm sure we could all write stories like this. Others will write about what makes them happy about their Cadillac. It really is like driving in a parade every time. Now I know there are nicer more desirable Cadillacs in better shape than my red 1970 DeVille Convertible, thing is never ever have seen any of them during my trips ever in 9 years (30,000 miles), except at car shows. You will be noticed with almost any Caddy drop top with a back seat.
Your missing out as I write this. Buy a classic Cadillac and enjoy life more.
I get the same sort of reactions in my 68 DeVille Convertible. The Arctic Blue looks almost white at night, and it looks striking. When my wife's sister & family was here last week, all 6 of us piled into it to go get some ice cream. it was about 8pm and just starting to get dark. Everyone at the ice cream place was looking at the car in awe. 8)
You Can't do that, especially the 6 passengers, in any modern convertible. :)
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on August 17, 2014, 10:54:17 PM
You Can't do that, especially the 6 passengers, in any modern convertible. :)
You said it best. Everyday I keep telling myself I was born in the wrong era. Thats why I love these old Cadillacs so much. Driving these time machines is the closest thing I will ever get to the past. Sometimes I pull the cover off my fathers 59 Convertible and just sit behind the wheel. It instantly puts me in a different state of mind. Scot also made a good point. Were not getting any younger, so obtain the car you want and enjoy it.
-Gavin
Amerikanisch,
I think if you liked that 59 black convertible you should buy it if the opportunity comes up again. We all could comment on it, because it is so easy to criticize, but at this point no good will come of it. If it was sold for 56k (30k discount) it could have been a good buy. The main thing is that the price matches the condition of the 59 convertible.
OK, I will give it up, black interior on a convertible not for me (especially with no a/c), exhaust with welded brackets, functionally fine (but not correct), and likely other restoration issues of form vs function. However if it had a white interior and was 100% correct they guy would have sold it for 30k more. Are you willing to pay 30k more for correct exhausts and an interior color that is more comfortable for top driving? That car will impress and drive just as well than one 30k more.
Don't miss the next one.
For now get your storage situation cleared up. Considering buying a 59 Eldo without a garage space locked down, is a crime. Even leaving a 1970 outside is a sure way to erode your purchase value in two years to much lower. The older cars do not hold up outside like the newer ones do.
I think the price on the black 59 was lowered 30k -to- 86,800obo (not 86,800 minus 30k).
It was discussed here before and overall is nice IMO but has a few issues, such as white rear grille(?), missing vent window cranks/etc.
Their website shows it as sold and heading to Saudi Arabia. With black interior and no A/C, must be someones winter car :)
I thought 56k was way too cheap for that 59 Caddy convt. despite restoration issues, no a/c and black interior - glad it went for 86k. Very likely no one in the middle East is going to care if about the lack of authenticity. That car will impress and draw lot's of attention.
If I could have gotten that car for 60k I don't think I could have gone wrong, but it probably sold for closer to 70k or 75k.
As long as it was not a chopped Coup DeVille and an actual 62 convertible, I think that would have been acceptable for 60k but, like you, I am not crazy about the black interior. By the way, was the interior an authentic restoration?
Next time I will go and at least drive the car if it is close by.
I think that I might have added the chrome trim to the tail light housing along the side of the fins- especially on a black car.
the interior must have been a special order,vinyl was not a regular production option
wrefakis,
The interior was a redo on that black '59 62. The original interior was red and white with white exterior.
If they recovered in vinyl, it seems like a cheapo restoration.
If you are trying to be authentic, at least cover the seats in the original factory material.
That expense would seem to be the least of it.
just another glued together rat
Quote from: George K Hashem on August 18, 2014, 04:04:47 PM
I do have a question how much more can we say about this??
I could have sworn the op's original question only needed a "yes" or "no" type of response. >:D
Actually, this thread is very educational and informative, especially for us newbies.
wrefakis,
How could you tell that 59 convertible black interior was vinyl instead of leather? The pattern looked close to authentic, so you would think if someone went to that much trouble that is the worst place to cut corners. Any convertible in vinyl is a mistake in my book? If I bought that car even if it was black leather, would have replaced it with white leather or lighter color anyway.
Quote from: INTMD8 on August 18, 2014, 12:26:42 PM
I think the price on the black 59 was lowered 30k -to- 86,800obo (not 86,800 minus 30k).
It was discussed here before and overall is nice IMO but has a few issues, such as white rear grille(?), missing vent window cranks/etc.
Their website shows it as sold and heading to Saudi Arabia. With black interior and no A/C, must be someones winter car :)
Still 90 degrees plus in the winter there during daylight. You want to ask me how I know?
Mike,
You made the smart choice for color of a convertible to drive on hot sunny days, no question.
I think that is what some people are complaining about who are buyers: they have to compete against people who do not know the cars well and bid as if there are no issues. Any convertible with a black vinyl interior for example being pursued by an avid convertible top down driver/Cadillac expert will discount the car, whereas the inexperienced buyer may not. For me owner of three classic Cadillacs I'm OK that prices are going up even if it is due to buyers who have failed to do their homework.
We should keep enjoying our Cadillacs during the remainder of the season. They drive great, it is cool to drive something over 40 years old that is so competitive with modern traffic, and the attention is fun too.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on August 18, 2014, 10:37:00 PM
Still 90 degrees plus in the winter there during daylight. You want to ask me how I know?
You are there? Depends on exactly where there is I suppose. When I visited Riyadh the weather was perfect, mid 70's all week.
Guys,
I get the feeling that some of you are getting a little frustrated that I don't jump right in and buy something, yet most of you have taken years to acquire your cars.
That white '59 Ritz with the red interior in Auburn, Indiana has a few things that hold me back #1. Distance (I would not buy without seeing in person). #2. Color. #3. it is an auction and therefore no guarantees that I would even be the successful bidder.
Apparently the car is authentic according to Wrefakis. I would be interested to find out the selling price as there is no reserve.
If it is as rare as you seem to think, maybe a local expert could take a look for me but I seriously doubt if I would be willing to go high enough to be the winning bid.
Wrefakis, do you think the interior is original or a restore?
Well if you're thinking you don't want to deal with travelling and you doubt you would be willing to be the high bidder at a no reserve auction maybe the Biarritz isn't the right car for you.
You could either spend less and buy one that isn't all there in terms of quality or buy a very nice series 62 but you aren't going to get one of the better Biarritz without spending big money IMO.
Nothing easier than being the winning bidder - just leave your arm held high in the air until it's all over. ;D
The white '59 is a FULL restoration - albeit very nicely & correctly done - from what can be seen. In person inspection is still strongly suggested.
If sincerely interested, a pre sale offer could be made - but that would depend on the seller and the terms of the auction house if already consigned and under contract. You would have to inquire about that but they will likely hit you with a high figure in order to make it worthwhile for them to withdraw the car from the auction.
Finally, nobody is suggesting you run out and buy immediately; however some question what exactly your sights are set upon - a 1959 Eldorado Biarritz or a 1969/1970 DeVille Convertible. ???
Yes, INTM, I can see the corner I am in.
I could pay $220,000 for a great car, but to do that it would also have to be a good investment.
If it would not be a good investment, I think that I should stick with something less than an investment quality '59 Ritz.
So. what do you think the future holds for that white '59 Ritz?
Will it go to $300 k and beyond in a year or two or... will it sit around $220,000 and possibly decline?
That is the question.
Would a lesser quality 'Ritz do just as well?
Would a nice series 62 do just as well?
What does the "expert" Wrefakis think?
Anyone know anything about investing in these cars?
Eric,
If I have to pay over $30 k for a nice 69/70 Deville convertible, I think I can go 70 k- 80k for a nice '59 62 series and be happier with it.
It's hard to forgo those fins and chrome for double the money at that price.
PARTICULARLY consider my limited garage space. Making it count should be the thing to do.
But "nice" is the operative word.
In fact, for a nice one, I might even take a color I don't particularly like or perhaps accept a car lacking in equipment.
The 69/70 would not have been my daily driver anyway. Just a lark for the weekends or perhaps an occasional entry into a local casual car show.
If you want it for an investment then buy the best car possible. (I believe that most here are in agreement).
It will hold it's value, it will not be questioned, it will be easier to sell.
If you don't want to spend what it takes to buy a pristine Biarritz then a pristine Series 62 will be a better investment than a cobbled together Biarritz.
Will the 220k Biarritz of today be worth 300 in a year or two, I highly doubt it. Should at least maintain it's current value if you maintain it's current condition (and likely appreciate over time) but as with any other market there are ups and downs.
Someone once said, you always miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
If the car is not local, you don't want to buy it.
If it's not a certain colour, you don't want to buy it.
If it's at an auction, you don't want to buy it for fear you will not be high bidder.
If it will lose money in the future, you won't buy it.
First of all, not everyone has a 59 Convertible anything sitting in a back yard near you - I had to travel to buy my 61 Fleetwood (550 miles, to be exact, and then travel back 550 miles again to go get it). Mind you, I've been told it's likely one of the best preserved 61 Fleetwood Sixty Specials on the planet, and that's not something you find in every back yard or barn on every corner. You have to go to the car, it won't come to you.
Colour - there are only so many colour combinations out there. My Fleetwood is black with fawn interior. I didn't set out to find a fawn interior, it found me. I wanted black and white interior. I compromised because everything else added up with the car, and now I love it in its entirety.
The auction - see my introductory remark.
If it will lose money in the future. No investment is guaranteed. If you want a guaranteed return, buy an investment with a guaranteed return (in Canada, we have guaranteed investment certificates or Canada Savings Bonds). They give a low rate of return, but there is no risk of loss. Any other investment, or car for that matter has an equal up side to the down side. It's a risk you take - not because you fear loss, it's because you want to. You need to be mentally ready to take the plunge.
So, if you ask why folks seem to be frustrated and irritated, I think that sums it up. You're either in or out - there's no in between or being wishy-washy in this game.
Amerikanisch,
I think that generally a great 1959 Cadillac for sale will be available for a week, or maybe a month at most, and if it is a real good one it may not last long. It will be difficult to get used to the idea of parting with over 50k for a hobby car on your first go around. The task of finding, inspecting, approving, and plunking down maybe near 100k for a nice 62 series convertible with a/c and the color combo you like in near perfect condition in that short of a time period is going to be difficult even for Donald Trump. You probably are worried you paid too much or something.
That is why the 69/70 Cadillac becomes more of a possibility. If you really mess up maybe you only lose 5k. Get your feet wet with an easier car to buy. You can learn all the realities with this car and then be in a much better position to buy a nice 59 in a few years.
I saw my red 1970 Cadillac at a show and it was advertised for sale. I called the guy on Tuesday and by Friday it was in my garage. That was my first classic car, took days not years because it is not a killer financial commitment.
You should get the storage situation straight, decide on either the 69/70 or the 59. If you decide to go for the 59, you will need to be prepared to act fast on a good one.
I think where some get frustrated is that your price point you want to pay on the 59 convertible and the combination of options, colors and etc. is a near impossibility given your level of understandable first time classic car buyer caution. Given the way these cars are sold, buying a 59 as my first car would have been a great challenge. One of my nearby friends bought a 59 Caddy as his first classic car purchase and he is mechanically gifted. Still he has really struggled as a result of not an optimum purchase. It just seems like we are all failures to help you and we more frustrated with ourselves. An experienced and confident classic car buyer in search of a 59 is going to beat you to the buy on a real great one every time.
We will help you when ever we can, that is why we are here.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 19, 2014, 05:01:15 PMI could pay $220,000 for a great car, but to do that it would also have to be a good investment.
If it would not be a good investment, I think that I should stick with something less than an investment quality '59 Ritz.
The primary reason for classic car ownership is passion for the hobby; economics secondary - unless a professional dealer or "flipper".
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 19, 2014, 05:01:15 PMSo. what do you think the future holds for that white '59 Ritz?
Impossible to answer in the absolute. Although trends over the past 10-20 years have gone well overall for most collector cars, there is certainly no guarantee the same will occur indefinitely.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 19, 2014, 05:01:15 PMWill it go to $300 k and beyond in a year or two or... will it sit around $220,000 and possibly decline?
It can do anything.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 19, 2014, 05:01:15 PMWould a lesser quality 'Ritz do just as well?
It is my personal opinion is that the market will remain the strongest for the best preserved originals - regardless of model or series - and those will also be the most resilient against market declines.
Lots of restorations out there - relatively few originals. Emphasis on originality is here to stay.
In a nutshell, an immaculate original 1959 Sedan deVille has roughly similar chances of appreciation as its more valuable brethren - IMHO. Personally, I would rather a mint original Series 62 Sedan over a patchwork quilt of a '59 Biarritz, any time, any day of the week - if I had to own one or the other and could not sell - but that's just me.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 19, 2014, 05:01:15 PMWould a nice series 62 do just as well?
IMO - Yes.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 19, 2014, 05:01:15 PMAnyone know anything about investing in these cars?
Some may - again, matters of investment involve the
intuitive rather the
absolute.
Dan, Scot, IMTND,
Thank you all for your comments.
I REALLY want a nice '59 convertible of some sort in my limited garage space, but Scot seems to think that without a lot of experience, I really have no way of beating an experienced buyer to the punch.
Interesting and also frustrating.
But with your help, who knows?
Hopefully, one of you would not buy it out from under me :-\.
"expert" ? having files and history on 99% of 59 ebz survivors,as well over 100 inspected in person,I dare say I earned the crown!
value in the future? simple a really good 59 or 69/70 kept as a collector car should hold its value,very few of these 59's trade at these puffed up numbers,I sold a 29k mile white black bench unrestored good solid car with full history last year for 110k, last week a triple Persian bench stored 35 years good solid unrestored car 100k,
the white one that I sold made the rounds thru all the not so experts and hustlers, as well as 6 times on ebay, no takers, what I got was all the $$$$
there are good 69/70 around in low 20's
I might be an expert on 1970's as well ,having owned and discovered the last 70 dvc ever produced sold with 5906 orig miles!
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 19, 2014, 05:40:38 PM
[Seems to me, one who has to ask so Many questions about a 59 probably shouldn't be buying one.
An interesting observation, although the logic of it escapes me.
Wrefakis,
That triple Persian for $100 k that sold last week.... I would have definitely been interested.. but you didn't tell me, Wrefakis.
You only told me about that auction car for $200k. If that triple Persian was a nice driver and original, it sounded like quite a good deal.
After talking $200k, $100k for an unrestored car in decent condition sounds pretty good.
Triple Persian is a real 'Ritz color too and somewhat unique. My wife would have loved it.
I probably would have bought it.
Did you buy it?
If you see another, be sure and let me know.
If you recommended it, that would be enough for me.
49er,
I ask a lot of questions.
It's how I learn and, hopefully, avoid some mistakes.
I don't know what your method is- but each to his own.
I did not tell you, because, although I have history on the car back to 59,it was sold to friend of the recently deceased owner who waited since 1975 to buy the car.
took me 23 years to buy my Persian
may buy an imperial I have been after since 1983 soon
most decent 59's I know of for years have guys ahead of me waiting for them
I know of zero good 59 ebz on the market now
With Wrefakis to guide me, I think I would prefer a '59 convertible.
If I could get an unrestored original 'Ritz for $100k ( + or -) in decent condition, I'm in.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 19, 2014, 05:34:10 PM
Dan, Scot, IMTND,
Thank you all for your comments.
No thanks for me I guess...
Amerikanisch,
No one in our club is going to buy a 59 out from under you, we are just not like that. There has not been a fight over a car between two club members in the decade I have been a member that I know of. Wrefakis did not buy that triple Persian sand car. He seems very honest to me and would not do that to you, and I never have been introduced. Honestly, could you say you would have bought that car? I did not read good things about it, and 100k is too good to be true for a 59 Eldo in great condition - you get what you pay for. If someone was looking for a 59 they would not be participating in this column until after they bought it to share pricing info.
I wish you good luck in finding a good one and being the one to buy it.
This is a hobby like golf that costs, so you will loose money on it. I do not know any individual that ever earned a profit on one of these classics, except professional dealers.
I hope you prove me wrong and buy a 59 and post some easy problem like, the door lock buttons are tarnished... as opposed to my engine has this ominous knock, what is the best way to patch floor plans, frame welding questions, body panels do not align well, and the magnet does not stick to the entire bottom of the car.
We want more in the Cadillac collector hobby. It is growing and making people happy.
Quote from: ericdev on August 19, 2014, 06:11:00 PM
No thanks for me I guess...
Me either technically :-)
I'm sure the omission was not intentional
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on August 19, 2014, 05:18:18 PM
First of all, not everyone has a 59 Convertible anything sitting in a back yard near you - I had to travel to buy my 61 Fleetwood (550 miles, to be exact, and then travel back 550 miles again to go get it). Mind you, I've been told it's likely one of the best preserved 61 Fleetwood Sixty Specials on the planet, and that's not something you find in every back yard or barn on every corner. You have to go to the car, it won't come to you.
As an aside, I had to wait for 8 years to find my '72 Eldo Convertible, and travel half way around the world to pick it up and package it to come home.
Sometimes you just have to keep on looking.
Bruce. >:D
If you're worried about someone buying a car out from under you, perhaps you should reconsider your ambitions. This hobby is not for the faint of heart, you have to be prepared to be all in balls to the wall on a purchase in a moments notice as those who sleep will lose. That's just part of the hobby. A decisive buyer with deep pockets will always win over a wishy-washy on the fence buyer.
Make up your mind what you want then search for it. Like George said, you're considering two polar opposites at very different ends of the price spectrum. Decide if you're partially in or all in with everything you've got. Until then, there isn't much more to discuss IMHO.
Eric,
Sorry, the omission was not intentional. Thank you very much!
Wrefakis,
Well if people were waiting for years, I cannot feel bad about them getting ahead of me.
You said the there has not been a good Eldo on the market for years. Does that include that white and red '59 'ritz in Auburn that you
recommended or is that an exception?
In 23 years I will be in my mid 80s.
Perhaps too late to enjoy a classic Caddy.
Don't forget to broaden your horizons. There are lots of these in Australia, as well as the Scandinavian countries.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on August 19, 2014, 10:22:02 PM
Don't forget to broaden your horizons. There are lots of these in Australia, as well as the Scandinavian countries.
Bruce. >:D
Good call!
http://www.autotrader.com.au/cars-for-sale/1959-CADILLAC-ELDORADO-JCW3265781?backurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autotrader.com.au%2Fcars%2Fcadillac%2F%3Fsort%3DEarliest%2520year%26current_page%3D2&backtext=Results
http://www.autotrader.com.au/cars-for-sale/1959-CADILLAC-DE-VILLE-JCF3405701?backurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autotrader.com.au%2Fcars%2Fcadillac%2F%3Fsort%3DEarliest%2520year%26current_page%3D2&backtext=Results
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1959-CADILLAC-SERIES-62-CONVERTIBLE-/111426402304?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item19f187f800
OR rough project? ;D
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1959-CADILLAC-CONVERTIBLE-to-restore-RARE-CADDY-big-fins-THE-BEST-AMERICAN-CAR-/251614879268?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item3a956a5e24
Thanks, but overseas cars are even more difficult to preview and then there are shipping fees to boot.
I think that I will stick to domestic cars, at least for now.
Check out this '58 Eldorado.
If this was a convertible, I could be happy with it.
Even as, is.... not too bad.
http://www.autotrader.com.au/cars-for-sale/view-photos/JCW3477460?photonumber=11
There is a myriad of CLC Members here in Australia that would be more than willing, and qualified, to inspect any vehicle for someone in USA.
Heck, they could even put you in contact with the previous owner Stateside to confirm the condition.
Plus, a lot of the cars that we import are pretty good, as we get USA members to look over any pending acquisition. I know I have done it myself with all the cars I have purchased. Plus, sending vehicles across the Pacific isn't that expensive, as there are many exporters that do just that.
Plus, us Aussies look at rust in a totally different way to those in USA. We totally hate it.
Bruce. >:D
I do not recommend that redone car in auburn,I stated that the body number and vin are known to my research.
I have not inspected this car.
try this out, I myself am looking for a good unrestored bench seat car, not even close to finding one, and I know where they all are!
Amerikanisch,
If you have not purchased a car by early next year, plan on attending the National Cadillac show (referred to as GN, short for Grand National) in WI June 24 - 27. You have to join the club to attend, but you do not have to own a Cadillac. There will be at least 300 Cadillacs in attendance ranging from late 30's to present with a concentration in the 50's thru 70's is my experience. You can look at every year and be sure what you are interested in. There are often some for sale too. Any questions you have about Cadillacs will be answered. In the mean time get your storage situation all set. Then after the show hire a broker as Art suggested (great suggestion Art) and put the responsibility for condition on the broker. Be sure and get some good references on the broker and go see what cars they have purchased for their customers.
I plan to be there driving my red Caddy from VA.
Plus as you know every car is for sale at the right price. Any cars you see at the GN, you can make an offer to an owner and see what they say.
Enjoy the search,
Scot
the 59 white Biarritz that INTMD8 sent you the link to is car 459 grand national winner in 1991, I was the under bidder in 07, no big deal getting it here, I shipped 3 59 ebz to Australia, asking 160 145-150 may work for a numbers matching clc grand national winner
here is the right one numbers matching documented, and not crazy on the price?
now does the rubber meet the road?
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on August 20, 2014, 03:27:50 AM
Plus, us Aussies look at rust in a totally different way to those in USA. We totally hate it.
Is this a joke? ???
I don't get it...
Quote from: wrefakis on August 20, 2014, 12:26:02 PM
the 59 white Biarritz that INTMD8 sent you the link to is car 459 grand national winner in 1991, I was the under bidder in 07, no big deal getting it here, I shipped 3 59 ebz to Australia, asking 160 145-150 may work for a numbers matching clc grand national winner
here is the right one numbers matching documented, and not crazy on the price?
now does the rubber meet the road?
And that's 160 AUD asking price I'm assuming?, so about 149k USD. Shipping is probably 3-4k. Sounds good to me!
George,
As one who is new to the car collecting game, I hesitate to jump in full bore- but my dream car is the '59 Cad Biarritz.
My problem is more lack of space than lack of funds.
But $150,000 is still a lot of money to me. I am not Gates, Buffet or Thurston Howell III- nor even close. But after I buy the car, I will still keep my present lifestyle- only somewhat enhanced by the ownership of such a beautiful land yacht, of course.
So is this too much to bite off for my first foray into the hobby?
Frankly, I am not sure.
My wife thinks I am crazy, so maybe so. But she will probably go along with the purchase if it will make me happy.
Wrefakis,
It sounds like you are endorsing this Australian triple white Ritz.
You have indicated that you know this car and that it has won an award in 1991.
It looks like it has three of the four options offered so, except for headlight dimmer, it appears to be "loaded".
I presume that all numbers are matching.
I noticed not many pics in the way of interior shots.
Is this an original or restore?
Would you suggest that I buy this car sight unseen based on the inspection of a member of the club?
George,
My plan was to garage the Cad and keep my SL 65 outside and covered. Not the best situation for sure. And now my SL is 7 years old, I may be needing a new daily driver soon.
Also, my extended warranty just ran out on the SL and these cars are expensive to maintain. But only 1200 50th anniversary editions were produced.
It is a collector car also.
Just a couple of notes on the white '59 in Australia.
The oil filter cover lid appears to be painted black, not blue. A common mistake on these, no big deal.
The taillight pods are chrome rather than body color. Only 1959 model to leave the factory with chrome taillight pods was the 60 Special. I suppose they could have been special ordered but my guess is that the vast majority of '59 Cadillacs sporting them today, received their chrome pods at some point after these cars became hot collectibles.
The Cadillac crest appears to be missing from the hood. It could be the photography - I cannot say.
Finally, I don't think the window sticker shown is an original document, but rather a repro.
As to the mileage reading - 19,000 - frankly, I'd take that with a grain of salt.
Eric,
Thanks for your astute observations.
I informed a friend of mine about my search and he warned me about a possible bubble in the car collecting market. This is mostly about very expensive sports cars and although I can see a bubble for them, I am not sure how it would affect the Cadillac collecting market.
Comments?
http://nbr.com/2014/08/18/vintage-car-bubble-auctions-pull-in-400m/
I do not endorse cars, I research and collect them, the information I provided is fact.
this car won in 1991 at the grand national,
numbers on tag and frame are correct
looks like a nice car
for all I know you may buy it for 135 usd
it was in the club way back, and I spoke to prior owners back to the 80's they told me it was a good car
I have done deals down under and never had a problem, good people
this has been fun, but if you are serious, you may want to run down this one, at least it is a running driving former CLC Senior winner, you will be out of your weight class trying to do any restoration work, in all my cars, I have never done any restoration work lol
You had asked about value in may 2007 I lost out on this car in hemmings at 69k to a dealer that flipped it to the current owner at 130k, these cars went wild down under due to the immense wealth created by mining deals with china and relaxed import requirements, I think good ones will not fly back to 69k, but I was around in 89 for the Japanese lunacy with the same dealers looking to bag them for 200k only to see them drop like rocks to 35k with no takers by 96.
back in 97 , pre meltdown,pre 911, when our economy was way ahead of where it is today, I bought a super nice 59 # 1020 59k miles buckets from a dealer at 45k,take away the offshore $$$
who knows?
Wrefakis,
The bubble and bust aspect of the car collecting market is a concern for me.
You say this is a good car and could be had for perhaps $135,000 USD (or maybe less?).
The car will probably never go back to $69,000, as you say, but do you think it will drop from here?
I can tell you this for sure: the cheaper I can get in, the happier my wife will be.
Don't know if you're married, but if you are, you know how important it is to keep the Mrs. as happy as possible ;).
forgive me, but if I had to bet, you will not buy one, get yourself a nice 76, there was a sharp one on ebay with 31k for 12g's, good for ice cream runs, burns regular, and will get you all them same attention!
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on August 20, 2014, 02:34:26 PM
Eric,
Thanks for your astute observations.
I informed a friend of mine about my search and he warned me about a possible bubble in the car collecting market. This is mostly about very expensive sports cars and although I can see a bubble for them, I am not sure how it would affect the Cadillac collecting market.
Comments?
http://nbr.com/2014/08/18/vintage-car-bubble-auctions-pull-in-400m/
You're welcome! ;)
The cars and the market for them - discussed in the article - are in an entirely different league than the "humble" mass produced American cars we're talking about here.
Aside of the late-'80s bubble - in which a '59 Biarritz went from <$10K to $150K overnight, the market for Cadillacs and other '50s American classics has remained relatively stable as the market has developed a more solid "base" since then.
In fact, relative to a lot of cars having comparatively little distinction that are worth far more, I think they're rather undervalued.
Again, anything is possible but I don't see any signs of a sudden market drop for the iconic '59 models anytime soon.
Thanks, Eric, for your worthy comments. You are probably right.
Okay Wrefakis, suppose that I were to take the next step?
What questions should I ask of the owner?
I should request more pics, I think.
By the way, I did not see any contact information with that link.
Perhaps INTMD8 can provide?
Click on the tab that says "show phone number"
0419 357 612
Yep,I went back and saw that.
I just need my list of questions to ask:
1. Air ride- is it there or has it been removed? If so, replaced with what?
2. Engine modifications?
3. Does everything work and work well?
4. Does it have factory A/C, cruise control and tinted windows per invoice?
5.Any collisions or accidents?
6. Cost to ship?
7. Request more pics of engine, interior and all body plates and stamped numbers on the frame.
8. Original or restored?
8.a. If Restored, by whom?
Anything else?
49er,
It may not happen this time or the next, but you will eventually lose that bet.
Why are you such a negative Nelson, anyway?
If i upset you so much, don't read my posts.
If you would spend over $100 k without doing your due diligence, all I can say is this: I am glad you are not investing my money.
buy a 76 for 12 g's
get looked at
go for ice cream
be happy
Wrefakis,
I would not devote scarce garage space to a 1976 Cadillac.
nor would i
Amerikanisch,
49'r is very positive person. He knows a lot about Cadillacs. He throws great parties too. Let's keep it about the cars.
This is a hobby, not an investment. You will loose money on this, hopefully not a great deal. Do not buy the car with the idea that if you need some cash it can be sold quickly like stocks. When you buy it consider the money gone, even though of course it is not all gone.
Bought my red 1970 convertible in 2005 for 14k, have probably invested another 14k in it and countless hours of time. All in all if the 28k was invested in 2005 and I was paid for time, by now it would be 100k, instead of maybe 30k. This is why it is not an investment, but a fun hobby.
I think that the questions you ask, by the time they are answered satisfactorily, the car will be gone. Plus as it turned out the last time, it was easier for the seller to ignore you and target a more eager buyer. If I was on the hunt for one, I would go see it immediately and if buy it if it was as advertised. It is more of a seller's market now than a buyers at least in our area of the Country and prices are on the way up. Also, it will be extra difficult if the wife has to approve of the purchase too. I usually buy mine and then tell her after the deal is done.
Hope you buy a Cadillac to enjoy.
I agree with Art.
19 pages over what to ask or look for buying a used car?
Come on...
1. Find one you like the looks of.
2. Fly out to see it yourself in person.
3. Have it looked at by a person just knows 59's.
4. Research the trim codes before hand, easily found online.
5. Make a decision.
Ask for opinions on a public forum and you will get tons of varying opinions as you can see.
Brian
I really don't understand why I am being regarded as "suspect".
This is a LOT of money and I am a newbie.
It's easy to get burned when you are a newbie and spending a lot of money.
I have been in the real estate business as an investor for almost 40 years and occasionally, I still get burned.
I do not wish to get burned, therefore I am being cautious.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
Sounds like this is a hobby for only the very rich as Mr. Patton implied, if so many of you are so cavalier about spending 100k +.
Currently, I am showing my daughter how to buy real estate to flip for a profit. Although I do not intend to flip this car, neither do I intend to get a screwing.
I am training her to be careful when bidding for these homes because you just never know what might pop up and you need to eliminate as many possibly negative variables as possible BEFORE you buy.
I don't like surprises unless they are pleasant surprises.
Brian,
I actually like hearing the opinions. It gives me information through which to sift.
If enough of you guys agree, then I figure that's probably the correct path.
Scot,
Most of you are beyond kind and helpful and I appreciate it- But when I feel that my sincerity is being questioned, I just naturally turn defensive.
I believe this is normal behavior, is it not?
49er does not know me, as I do not know him. I am sure that his parties are swell.
I would not question anyone's sincerity without absolute proof that they are not who they are purporting themselves to be and I would like the same courtesy.
Is this asking too much?
I imagine if you are tired of my questions, you can put me on "ignore" but I hope that you do not.
Thanks for listening.
76Eldo,
Dropping everything (I am only "semI" retired) and flying to Australia on a moment's notice is not something that I would do without finding out a good deal about the car first (Although flying to Australia is not out of the question).
If I lose it, then I can only conclude that the car was not meant for me.
BTW, this appears to be a far better deal than the auction car in Auburn, Indiana if it sells for anywhere near the estimated selling price.
Best to combine with a family vacation, I think. That way if I don't get it, for whatever reason, it would not be a wasted trip.
I think you would be nuts to start with a high priced cranky beast like a 59 eldo
get a nice full size vert that you can enjoy,learn what you need to know about old cars, then move up
it takes time and knowledge to enjoy these cars(59) a 68-70 will give you 100% or more driving fun,
and never kill you $$$ wise
then if you find a real 59, you will make the right move
For the record,
I have owned two Cadillacs in the past: a 1954 Cadillac Fleetwood when I was in high school and a 1973 Cadillac Eldorado when in my late twenties.
The Eldo was a lemon but I bought it used, so I don't really know what it went through before I bought it.
I wouldn't fly to Australia to buy a car because of the expense and the shipping. There must be at least a few in the US to look.
at. Some great cars end up in Sweden and Norway, but the expense and risk of shipping them back is a turn off to me.
Seems like since you are in the land of rust free cars, California, there must be some decent ones in CA, NV, TX, AZ.
Consider a nice original and maybe get it freshened up. A true car with marginal paint is appealing to me, more than a resale red Bondo recreation.
I am just saying it doesn't take 19 pages of messages to find out what to do in order to find a decent car.
Brian
Wrefakis,
Okay, I give a great deal of weight to your council.
You talked me into it.
A could live with a 69-70 in my garage. But anything later, no.... not really interested.
I will postpone my dream for now.
76 Eldo,
Sometimes it takes 19 pages. I went from the '59 to the '69 and '70 and back again, and then back again.
This time I am sticking with the 69/70s. Much less money, much less risk and the wife will be happier too.
As of now my search for the '59 has officially ended in favor of the 69/70.
to me most of the brokers are strokers who do not write checks, but try to peddle whatever they trip over at puffed up prices
art, you ,scott, eric, all of us know there is no right or wrong, if you like the car, buy it, period!
Quote from: 49er on August 20, 2014, 06:21:57 PM
So, you come on a site, don't know and havnt met anyone. On the word of complete stangers you will invest as you say, spend as We say, since future returns are guaranteed to no one and this is " due diligence "?
I know my brokers personally and they no me. I don't know you, but your approach, your questions raise flags for me.
49er,
Yes, because I have confidence in you guys.
When people devote so much time and energy to their cars, they know them better than anyone and since you are not trying to sell me your
car, there is no reason to "guild the lilly" (not that you fine gentlemen would do that anyway, mind you, as I am sure that you are all above
reproach). I have learned a great deal here (air ride problems , options to look for, etc.). And the biggest thing I have learned is not to
buy an expensive car until I have gotten my "feet wet" (so to speak).
I most SINCERELY thank you ALL ;D
Only 20 pages and we're done?
Does this mean I'm not getting a commission check on the white Biarritz?
Amerikanisch,
No not getting frustrated with you, sorry if I gave that impression. Really we need to keep it about the cars. I know 49'r personally and he is not negative. The parties thing although true, was just thrown in for humor.
You made the right decision going after a 69/70 Cadillac. That is what I have as you know, and you can't go wrong.
Still the SL will need to be outside, because these older cars do not hold up outside. One of my less intelligent friends purchased a 1972 Cadillac Sedan with 19k miles and he kept it outside. He did not drive it much. In four years he asked me to take a look at it when I was interested and eventually purchased my 1970 SDV Cadillac. When I looked at the 1972 caddy, it looked more like a parts car, paint gone, vinyl top shot/rusted underneath, water leaked inside and etc. A 30k cost 1969/70 Cadillac will be 8k resale value in four years stored outside here in VA.
Hope to see you at GN in 2015.
If you buy a 1970 Cadillac (1969 is very similar), since I have three and have removed engines (repaired numerous climate control systems) and etc., I know a lot about them, it may be that I'm one of your new best friends. My Cadillac came in 3rd in the Country at GN in 2014.
Send a conclusion to this column when it happens.
I don't know how to put someone on ignore, so you will always be heard.
Quote from: wrefakis on August 18, 2014, 03:14:54 PM
just another glued together rat.
No mercy eh? :P
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on August 18, 2014, 10:55:18 PM
Mike,
You made the smart choice for color of a convertible to drive on hot sunny days, no question.
I think that is what some people are complaining about who are buyers: they have to compete against people who do not know the cars well and bid as if there are no issues. Any convertible with a black vinyl interior for example being pursued by an avid convertible top down driver/Cadillac expert will discount the car, whereas the inexperienced buyer may not. For me owner of three classic Cadillacs I'm OK that prices are going up even if it is due to buyers who have failed to do their homework.
We should keep enjoying our Cadillacs during the remainder of the season. They drive great, it is cool to drive something over 40 years old that is so competitive with modern traffic, and the attention is fun too.
Scot,
I kind of blundered into my car.
It was a 3 week old newspaper ad. I'm petty sure not too many classics are bought that way.
Granted it was 16 years ago., and the car was a semi- basket case (rt rr tire blew on the way home and the spare was a 30 yr old flat!). But even though it had been re-painted, it was done in the original Arctic Blue, and it had the original white top (which I kept on it for 7 years). I liked and still like the color combo. People are always asking if it was the car in the movie 48 hours.
Quote from: ericdev on August 20, 2014, 12:34:02 PM
Is this a joke? ??? I don't get it...
No joke. Here in Australia, 95% of the rust found in cars is showing up in the bottom of the door skins and can be seen from outside the cars. This is a result of driving in dusty conditions, and the doors filling with dust, which turns to mus when it rains, and as the mud fills the drain holes, it just sits there and rusts from the inside out.
I have imported vehicles from USA, and one car, a '64 Chev, looked good in the doors, but everything else was rusted through.
Here we never have problems like Frame Rot, or structural rusting, because we never put salt on the roads during winter, anywhere in Australia. It snows, nobody drives, by the afternoon, it has melted away.
I even converted a '68 Corvette to RHD that had serious rust in the windscreen frame, resulting in the seats rusting because of the water on the floor.
Plus, I cannot recall any bodyworks here having to replace quarter panels and sills because of rust, except on cars that have come over from USA.
Quote from: 76eldo on August 20, 2014, 06:14:28 PM
I wouldn't fly to Australia to buy a car because of the expense and the shipping. There must be at least a few in the US to look.
at. ............... Brian
The trouble is that if you did, you would probably want to stay, and the cost of shipping all your cars down under would be the biggest expence. ;)
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: ericdev on August 20, 2014, 03:29:20 PM...
In fact, relative to a lot of cars having comparatively little distinction that are worth far more, I think they're rather undervalued.
Again, anything is possible but I don't see any signs of a sudden market drop for the iconic '59 models anytime soon.
Amen to that. Try getting a 1967 corvette. The big blocks weren't even supposed to have heaters let alone AC, and there weren't that many originally sold, but it seems that every other one for sale is an L88 engined one.....
Quote from: wrefakis on August 20, 2014, 05:01:05 PM
buy a 76 for 12 g's
get looked at
go for ice cream
be happy
Get a 1968-70 and run rings around that '76 in a better looking car! :P
Mr Stewart, we're nor frustrated or upset. It was fun reading the 20 pages. Scot is well versed on the 70s and 69s are very similar. 68s have the same drivetrain, but a completely different body. They also have those awesome front vent windows and fully chromed fins in the rear bumper with those super cool reverse lights. And it has a temp gauge. Climate control major components (compressor, POA, condenser, etc) are the same, but the ATC control units are different between 68 and 69-70. There are many here who can hep you. You definitely want Climate Control in any 64 or later Cadillac you get.
Did you see the links I posted earlier with the brochures? That will show colors and options, etc.
The GM Heritage site link I posted will get you the data books for each year.
Let us know if you have any questions on these DVCs.
Just make sure you get one with NO RUST.
Bruce,
Sometimes I drive a Caddy to Outback for a steak. Does that count? >:D
I know it's a beautiful country and Colin Hay is a friend of mine.
Brian
No Brian,
Your Outback Steakhouses don't cook food like we do, or offer the same food as we eat.
Went to one is 2002, and they served Flamin' Onions. Never heard of those before, and the colour scheme of the place was totally un-Australian.
Bruce. >:D
I'd love to vacation in Australia sometime. I was just making a joke about Outback.
No offense take I hope.
Brian
CadillacMike,
Thank You, I appreciate your offer of help.
Am I being overly sensitive here? It's not like I have been blogging for two years and have not pulled the trigger.
I am sure that I would be happy with a '69 or '70 Caddy convertible. I kind of lean to '69 because that's the year that I graduated high school but a '70 would be fine.
I would like to at least have my colors since I am giving up my dream car.
Blue (not light blue) with tan would be #1 choice. Red or blue with white would be #2. Red with tan #3. No red interiors, please.
Byzantine gold with black doesn't do it for me.
Bruce,
Some of us may be joining you with our Cadillacs "Down Under" fairly soon.
If I were younger, I might join them.
I presume that you don't have to be Muslim to immigrate to Australia but, with the world as whacky as it is lately, I am taking nothing for
granted....... ;D LOL.
Not being political, but anyone can emigrate to Australia, so long as they want to be Australians. We welcome everyone.
Bruce. >:D
PS. If you are bringing Cadillacs or LaSalles with you, please think about leaving them here when you return, that is if you are planning on returning.
PPS. All Aussies love a road trip. Especially the evenings entertainment.
Quote from: ericdev on August 20, 2014, 02:10:53 PM
Just a couple of notes on the white '59 in Australia.
The oil filter cover lid appears to be painted black, not blue. A common mistake on these, no big deal.
The taillight pods are chrome rather than body color. Only 1959 model to leave the factory with chrome taillight pods was the 60 Special. I suppose they could have been special ordered but my guess is that the vast majority of '59 Cadillacs sporting them today, received their chrome pods at some point after these cars became hot collectibles.
The Cadillac crest appears to be missing from the hood. It could be the photography - I cannot say.
Finally, I don't think the window sticker shown is an original document, but rather a repro.
As to the mileage reading - 19,000 - frankly, I'd take that with a grain of salt.
Seen that car in person. Been for sale for ages for $160k. No one bought it because it wasn't worth the asking price.
Has an older restoration done to it. Most of the Eldorado stainless appears to have been restored/refinished but not very well, will have to be done again.
No air ride. Most of the panels don't line up very well.
Mileage is more like 119000, lots of wear on the brake and accelerator pedals.
Numbers all match. Passed in at auction for $79000. My friend offered $75000 but was declined. It finally sold for $85000.
For that price I think it's a good deal because you can enjoy it the way it is for now and maybe spend another $100-150k or so to bring it to what it should be.
Asking a-buck-and-a-half for $75K worth of property?
Seems about right. ::)
OK Eric, you just HAD to post the 400th reply and hope to get the last word in didn't you? ;)
Indeed. 8)
Quote from: eldo59 on August 21, 2014, 04:22:42 AM
Seen that car in person. Been for sale for ages for $160k. No one bought it because it wasn't worth the asking price.
Has an older restoration done to it. Most of the Eldorado stainless appears to have been restored/refinished but not very well, will have to be done again.
No air ride. Most of the panels don't line up very well.
Mileage is more like 119000, lots of wear on the brake and accelerator pedals.
Numbers all match. Passed in at auction for $79000. My friend offered $75000 but was declined. It finally sold for $85000.
For that price I think it's a good deal because you can enjoy it the way it is for now and maybe spend another $100-150k or so to bring it to what it should be.
So, does this latest information justify my myriad of questions? I think that it might.
If the car needs $100-150 k more invested to bring it up to snuff, it would be hard to justify the asking price.
All classic cars are that way (where the fix up to perfect cost plus cost of car not perfect exceeds the value of the perfect car) you will soon discover. Hence the saying: The most economical purchase is the best condition car you can afford.
When you search out the 69/70 Cadillacs you find a perfect one is 30k. Here are some 1970 Cadillac restoration costs that I have seen and others may disagree, but anyway:
1. Reupholster in all leather correctly by disassembling existing pattern and duplicating exactly - $5,000
2. Repair dash using Just dashes $2,000
3. Repair door panels using just dashes or buy good used and re-paint $1,000-$2,000
4. Complete climate control restore, replacing a/c comp, heater coil, evap coil, controls $4,000
5. Re-chrome outside mirror with correct matt chrome finish by Finishing Touch $800
6. Re-chrome front and back bumpers (all 8 pieces), including install $4,000
7. Replace brake system, all steel lines, calipers, pistons, shoes, booster master cylinder $2,000
8. Replace fuel lines front to back correctly $700
9. Replace timing chain and rear main seal on engine-should be done if original $700
10. Replace rubber weather seals on door, convertible top, and window sides + trunk $1,000
There is $21,200 in common fix up and repair items.
You could buy a good running car with nice paint and convertible top which may seem like a deal at 15k, and then you have to put 21k into it and now there is 36k invested and it is still not as nice as the perfect 30k car.
When shopping you can use this cost list to help evaluate. When the seller says "it just needs a charge and the a/c will be working". You can say "go ahead and do it and I will buy it". This is the biggest lie on e-bay and it is likely a 4k project. Keep in mind the price often reflects issues and not perfection so, if the car was advertised as needing an interior, you know that is 10k, so if they asked 11k, you don't knock off 10k. That is how this happens where the fix up cost plus car cost exceeds value of a perfect car.
Enjoy the process,
Scot
Scot,
Thanks for the info, you are a gentleman and a scholar. I will print this for my file. :D
49er,
You crack me up.
I can just see you at home on a Sunday afternoon:
"Get off my lawn, you @!#%$ kids!" ;).
Quote from: ericdev on August 21, 2014, 11:15:26 AM
Asking a-buck-and-a-half for $75K worth of property?
Seems about right. ::)
Not sure it's worth 150 but I would pay more than 75 for it.
Quote from: INTMD8 on August 21, 2014, 06:15:52 PM
Not sure it's worth 150 but I would pay more than 75 for it.
The crack was made jocularly. ;)
I really have no idea what the thing is worth - except that it's apparently around $85K, well south of $130K or whatever they've been offering it for over the last two years.
Post # 407:
First part: Thanks
Second part: Let's keep it about the cars.
Me bad >:D.
Scot's list, while extensive and expensive,doesn't even address items such as the water pump, radiator, power steering, alternator, starter, power window motors, front and rear suspension, and possible engine work.
All of these things have moving parts and will wear out, sometimes more than once while you have it. I have gone through 2 starters water pumps, and 2 ps pumps, alternator, all the window motors, and one a 2nd time, had to re-rubber the rear suspension, and replace 3 of 4 ball joints, etc. And I had to do an engine overhaul. Granted my initial purchase was way under $15K, but this adds up quickly, and on a 1959, the costs can be double or triple what Scot mentioned for the 68-70 era.
Here's a nice '70, blue/blue with lots of options - cruise, trunk release, trumpet horn, power locks......
http://www.auctionsamerica.com/events/feature-lots.cfm?SaleCode=AF14&ID=r0460&Order=alphabetical&feature=&collection=&grouping=&category=
Mike is 100% correct.
Our 1970 Cadillac SDV with 32k miles is being mechanically refreshed so that all issues associated with low mileage car are being addressed so that the car can be driven to CA without issues, and some of the items replaced besides of course hoses and belts: are radiator, fuel lines, brake lines, all rubber seals, all body to frame bushings, all rubber suspension components, lower engine seals, timing chain, and etc...
The cost of parts for all this work is 4k. The labor is likely 8k, but we are doing it ourselves (my 17 year old son and I). We are media blasting and powder coating or repainting everything mechanical/chassis so underneath or under hood it all looks factory new and it is much more durable. Given the cosmetic aspect of the mechanical improvements, I would say we are well into 4k + 8k + another 4k in unnecessary mechanical cosmetics cost for this work, or 16k total. Yet with all this work we have increased the value of the car 15 or 16 cents to an inexperienced collector.
Some pictures are attached of some of the work.
On restoring a 1968-70 Cadillac to perfect, I could easily write checks for 100k to do it. The armrest plaques in brushed chrome if restored correctly cost 5k at Finishing Touch for example. You are only limited by your imagination on the cost of perfection.
Buy the best car you can afford. I would pay 40k for a perfect (my definition of perfect) 1970 Cadillac convertible because I know that it is easy to put way more than that into it.
Trouble is on some of the near 100k mile 1970 Cadillacs that have been "well maintained", have issues like the ones we are correcting on our 32k mile Cadillac that are just waiting to fail at the most inopportune moment.
We are keeping all the original cosmetics on the 1970 Cadillac SDV with 32k miles, including original vinyl top in perfect like new condition, upholstery which is OK, paint that is OK, chrome, interior perfect door panels, and etc.
More knowledge, hope it helps.
scott, what color is you 70 sedan?
The best part of this was " I do not like the color"
so for our next chapter, how about our dream car list?
as an aside, they thought I was a bent axel for paying 15 grand for a 70 dvc in 1982 when it was "just an old used car" same guys thought I was the brain after they tried a few "frame on restorations"
good cars never cost too much, bad ones always do
OK FANS,HERE IS MY WANT LIST!!!!
MINT ORIGINALS ONLY
70 DVC CHATEAU MAUVE
70 DVC SPARTACUS BLUE
69-70FLEETWOOD BROUGHAM LEATHER NO BODY MOULDINGS NO BUMP ROOF
50 G's for the DVC MINT ORIGINALS MILES UNDER 25K
25 G's FOR FLEETWOODS
59 EBZ BLACK WITH BENCH SEAT ORIGINAL UNRESTORED, NO PRICE CAR DOES NOT EXIST
Here's one for you Billy - but I'm sure you already know all about it - including that it's not a bencher.
All the same, 3x black in a '59 Ritz is about as close as it gets to the Holy Grail in my book - bench or not! ;) And yes, the colors do match the plate - at least so professed by the seller.
And look - NO chrome taillight pods! ++++ ;D
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1373.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag382%2Fdanddmotors%2Foriginal_zps96c9c496.jpg&hash=67018415b497a1c1c00b3931bf680f1952deeca7) (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/danddmotors/media/original_zps96c9c496.jpg.html)
rusty junk
What do you expect for $85K? (maybe) ::)
Is that car currently for sale Eric?
The color of the 1970 SDV is Patina Silver with a dark blue vinyl roof, picture attached. The interior is dark blue dash with medium blue cloth and leather, medium blue door panels. The car is unbelievably well preserved - no rust, seldom driven and always garaged. The upholstery is not that great though, seat foam is kind of hard.
The car was owned by one man from 1970 thru 2012. Then in the summer of 2012 it was willed to a 30 year old policeman in Baltimore, MD (the grandson). The Grandson knew he could not keep it and wanted it to go to a good home. I purchased it from grandson in October 2012.
It runs very well, starts super nice even after some time has passed or it is hot.
Quote from: INTMD8 on August 22, 2014, 12:03:41 PM
Is that car currently for sale Eric?
It had been on eBay in the last year Jim.
I cannot recall whether it was a "no sale" or if the auction was ended early with selling price unknown.
$85K seems to stick in my mind as the last figure I remember seeing.
It was claimed completely unrestored original.
**Personally I don't think there are more than a few handful of '59s that never developed
any rust in their lifetimes - especially if a/c equipped - in which case it is practically assured on lower RF fender.
One of the posts on this long column said that the triple black 59 Eldo is down in Australia.
Scot, don't replace the radiator on the 1970, unless the tanks are bad. Have it re-cored. The original takes are great to have, especially if the original tag is present.
Mike,
That ship sailed a while ago. Since the radiator failed at the tank (it was splitting), I don't feel too bad about scrapping it. The four row really does a nice job cooling the car down (I have a temp gauge).
^^ Well, that would be a good reason to replace the entire radiator. :-X
Perhaps Amerikanisch will have some news to report after the Auburn Auctions!
There were a lot of nice Cadillacs there.
8)
Just saw on the Auburn Auction TV telecast that the '59 eldo convertible, white exterior, red interior went for $210,000.00. Don't know if it included the buyers fees, I would imagine it does not. The commentators said it was a one hundred point car.
If the 59 Eldo was truly a perfect car meeting the wrefakis standards of perfection, then 210k + 21k buyer fee is not terrible, cheaper than restoring one. For that money I think that the color you want is important and not a big fan of white. Should you drive it? If it is to be driven do not want black interior either.
My warranty just expired on my MB SL 65. Now if anything goes wrong it will cost me an arm and a leg. Not sure if I should nurse this along or get a new daily driver, but it does throw a kink in my plans to acquire a classic Caddy- especially with only three garage spaces. My wife has a new MB and so does my daughter and they are all garaged. Damn! Why do 99% of homes have no more than three garages?
Why not buy a cheaper daily driver, Build a forth bay on the garage and get the old caddy aswell? >:D
Sheldon hay
Just a question but when you started this thread you didn't know the warranty was expiring on the SL in less than 2 months?
I don't see how it's relevant really. If you were ready to drop 150k+ on a Biarritz that should be enough coin to buy a perfect 70 and keep the SL on the road for a couple of lifetimes. (and a garage addition!)
Amerikanisch,
I have enjoyed reading this post, commenting and all, most probably others have too as there are 22 pages and over 400 comments. Thank you for starting it up. I learned a lot from Wrefrakis especially about the true scarcity of quality open 1959 Cadillacs.
Seriously though, 3 garage spaces 3 MB's, warranty expiring, careful cautious person, and all. From when you started the column all this was known as stated in your last post you were never in a position to buy a classic car according to you. It is really fun to see new people join the hobby, and many probably thought you might join us.
Guess when you eluded to possibly challenging 49'r to a bet about you buying a Cadillac he would have won. That is OK this hobby is not for everyone, expecting perfection in every aspect of the hobby, such as great price, condition, and color/opt combo will only lead to misery. No classic car is perfect, and that is an understatement. There are people in our club who enjoy it and do not own a Cadillac. Hope that your fortunate situation continues.
Thanks for winding up the column with your notification that a classic Cadillac purchase is unlikely at this time.
Scot
You're right, Scott. Art called this one early on. His sniff test is usually right. I think that's why the discussion got as heated as it did.
"at this time" being the operative phrase.
I still love the classics and I saw a beautiful 1953 Buick Skylark at the car show in Orange County recently. Of course, I still prefer the Caddy, but the 'lark is getting pretty darn close.
No chance to build a 4th garage. No room even if the Association would allow it.
When my daughter moves out, that would work. Like all young people, it's hard for her to find a job- even with a college degree.
Once the garage space is available, there will be no reason not to obtain a classic.
The country may be going into the commode, but we can still enjoy these wonderful cars that remind us of better times.
country cannot be that bad, seems your problem is what high dollar car to park in front of your 3 car garage
seems like you are far from the commode!
wrefakis,
I am one of the last people who should be complaining but for the next generation, the prospects are not so rosy. So many of them are still living with their parents well into their twenties and some have even moved back home in their thirties.
As for myself, I lost money in that last financial bubble burst but I am still doing okay. I gambled a few golden eggs but not the goose that laid them- which is why I survived pretty much intact.
I have always been a saver and an investor rather than a spender and I never lived beyond my means.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on September 03, 2014, 01:47:56 PM
No chance to build a 4th garage. No room even if the Association would allow it.
Time to move! :)
INTM,
My wife and I were looking at a home with a four car garage just last month. Beautiful but pricey. But even though pricey, the layout would not have worked for us and we are kind of addicted to our (relatively) low mortgage payments ;D.
Roy,
The AMG is Mercedes' racing division and the AMG cars are more expensive to maintain than a regular Mercedes SL 550.
Sure, I could do it and eventually my SL65 will come back up in value. Only about 1200 of the 50th anniversary editions were produced- at least for US consumption. That is less than one per MB USA dealership.
It drives great but it has so many electronic gadgets, and it has over 100,000 miles which is unusual because most people only drive them on the weekends. I bought it two years old with only 5900 miles.
For now, I will nurse it along and if it gets to be too expensive, I guess that I will have to sell it but I have had the car for 7 years and it is almost like an extension of myself. Like a comfortable old fishing hat that you just hate to part with.
wrefakis,
Yes, I am aware that a '59 Caddy would not come with a warranty but I would not us it as a daily driver.
As far as 49er's "smell test" is concerned, I never said that I would buy a car immediately- nor did I give any time frame.
I said that I was "seriously searching"- and I was.
But "never" is a long time and when we get the garage space, that will be a good time.
Most of you have taken years to obtain your classics. Don't know why I must be in a hurry to avoid being considered a flake.
But that's okay. It is what it is.
INTM,
No, I did not know that my extended third party warranty was about to expire. At the dealership, they told me a while back that I had over year and a half and 50,000 miles to go. It turns out they were wrong.
Interesting posts, staying on point about cars:
It took me just days to buy each of my 1970 Cadillacs when I set out to buy each one in 2005, 2009,and 2012. When a space opens up in one of my garages, due to a building addition, sale of vehicle, or a kid moving out, a car gets bought quickly, I'm afraid. Since this is a hobby and not an investment of substantial net worth, I'm enjoying it. If a mistake is made, the Cadillac will be repaired, sold, or whatever it takes to make me happy. A hobby is supposed to help make you happy.
On the Country/economy not good for young and old as it relates to our hobby - disagree. I turn away numerous opportunities to earn good money associated with the classic car hobby (and other industries too) due to time constraints. I could go on and on about how many wonderful prosperous opportunities in this hobby and other industries there are for young and old people now that go untapped.
I drove my Cadillac to an engineering assignment today, what fun it was.
Scot,
My remarks on the economy were general in nature and not intended regarding the hobby of car collecting.
Again, I have no complaints personally. I know how lucky I am.
Former Owner
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
It only took me 2 days to source and buy my 1968 as well. It's not a ,59, but hey that's why It was quick and easy.
Sort it out and do what you want, but get rid of those mbs for a Cadillac V model (STS or CTS).
On the economy, I tried to keep on point with the hobby, but overall it is quite good (not just with Hobby). My friends that own businesses are all looking for talented hard working people (who is not - right?). I'm not worried at all that my 14, 17, and 19 year old kids will have great jobs after college. Then they can join me in the hobby.
I'm planning to buy one of those new large Cadillacs when they come out. Probably buy it used one or two years old no older than second model year so the bugs are out of it. Probably looking at end of 2017 or so, buying a 2016 model (they are supposed to go on sale 2015 eoy). When I decide it is time, it might take a couple hours.
It took me the better part of a year to find the '70 that I wanted. Seems there's a whole cluster of them up in the Northeast. Had to have a nicely optioned car with the right color combo.
Funny story, prior to getting the Cadillac, I had (and still do) a '75 Olds Delta 88 Convertible. Bought it in '91, it was a piece of crap. Put a 455 in it, redid the interior and painted the car (in my driveway). It was originally a silver car. I looked through all the color chips (worked at a parts store at the time that sold auto paint) and picked a maroon color. Turns out the color I selected back in 1992 was San Mateo Red, same color as my '70. What are the chances? Guess I picked a Caddy color back in the day and didn't recall that I did. Funny, huh?
Now when I drive the Caddy, all my buddies think I'm driving the olds. Side by side, the Caddy is so much better looking. 8)
Funny how your it seems all our friends and neighbors would confuse a red Oldsmobile, red 59 caddy or red 4 door 1961 Lincoln convertible with a red 1970 Cadillac convertible. They just see a red convertible. That is why I wrote way earlier in the post that without another Cadillac to compare (never happened to me in 34k miles of driving over 9 years, except at car shows) in normal driving, the 1970 and 1959 Cadillacs are about the same wow effect to the low information about cars public.
Patience in saving for what I want I have, but no patience once the money is saved and it is time to buy.
Scot,
I know that my daughter is pampered and not all that motivated, but we also live in California which has a high unemployment rate. I am trying to get her and her boyfriend interested in flipping houses but I know we are coming in late in the game because the values are stabilizing. They are working on finding a house now and we have already made an offer at an auction -but we were overbid. I cannot see my daughter wasting time at a dead-end job when there is real money to be made. I will put up the cash, they will do the work and we will split the profits 50/50. I must approve everything before we buy, of course.
I forget that young people know nothing about real estate but I am trying to get them to do as much of the research as possible, It's a learning experience. It may not pan out but I thought it worth a try.
I wish I could be optimistic about the future of the US middle class, but the only reason my daughter has a chance, in my opinion, is because I can help her. Her degree is not in high demand and to get a good job, you have to have studied in a field in demand.
Amerikanisch,
That is a topic for another forum. My kids are pampered too, but I'm optimistic. I could go on and on.
flipping houses, there is a bridge for sale in brooklyn
I have to say, black suits this car well. I need more money!!!! Aaaahhhhhh ;D
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/cadillac/eldorado_biarritz/1678340.html
INTM,
Looks like it needs work. LOTS of work. How much are they asking?
It needs lots of work to be a perfect show car. Personally I would detail it, go through the mechanicals and preserve/drive it as-is.
It is a very comfortable feeling to drive an extremely reliable, great running car that is cosmetically not perfect, yet nice. This applies to classics, trucks(especially), and modern cars. A rust free 59 Eldo (probably other classic Cadillacs too) that is complete with a/c and mechanically perfect would be a joy.
Quote from: INTMD8 on September 05, 2014, 03:15:33 PM
I have to say, black suits this car well. I need more money!!!! Aaaahhhhhh ;D
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/cadillac/eldorado_biarritz/1678340.html
If that car is indeed all original as professed, I wouldn't do a damn thing to it - this side of reconditioning/polishing/detailing - and mechanical sorting as needed, of course.
Black on b/w interior is one of my all-time favorite combos in this era. I'd prefer black top but could well live with the white.
Well Billy? It's in NJ. You
must know this one! ;) ;D
Do I see cruise control on the dash? and I see a vent in the dash, is it an a/c car?
Iffin I were Amerikanisch, I'd be on the phone, plunking down a deposit and on the next plane to the northeast.
:o
Quote from: chrisntam on September 05, 2014, 06:43:56 PM
Do I see cruise control on the dash? and I see a vent in the dash, is it an a/c car?
Iffin I were Amerikanisch, I'd be on the phone, plunking down a deposit and on the next plane to the northeast.
:o
Amen.
And push the Mercedes into the damn cornfield if necessary. 8)
Quote from: ericdev on September 05, 2014, 06:36:49 PM
If that car is indeed all original as professed, I wouldn't do a damn thing to it - this side of reconditioning/polishing/detailing - and mechanical sorting as needed, of course.
Black on b/w interior is one of my all-time favorite combos in this era. I'd prefer black top but could well live with the white.
Agreed! I love it
I contacted them and was told all original including paint except for small touch up on one of the 1/4's.
Wrefakis,
I have not flipped houses recently, but I have picked up a a couple of sweet deals in probate court back in the 80s before everybody started doing revocable family trusts. It IS possible to find bargains occasionally IF you are consistent and tenacious.
But, getting back on track, what do you think of this black '59 'ritz in your expert opinion?
they want 175k for what looks to be a good,buy tired old car,I am looking at it today.
Now for the fun part.
I and only I have known of this car for many years,and have been trying to buy it forever
Relative comes into picture,next thing you know, profiteer buys and marks up 100%
Good work if you can find it
Last year I bought one 29K original miles, unrestored that owner shopped all over the world including all the brokers and ebay at 190 ended up selling to me at 105
I thing I will coming back only with photos and no car, since I am no buyer at 175K
But, you gotta be in it to win it, I was no buyer on the last one at 190K, ended up owing it
Quote from: wrefakis on September 05, 2014, 08:48:51 PM
I thing I will coming back only with photos and no car, since I am no buyer at 175K
Yep, I was hoping for a 125 asking price to negotiate from. 175 is too far away but it does look like a great car.
Well, for what it's worth, I think that $175,000 is out of bounds and also that white 100 point 'ritz in Auburn sold too high as well.
Just my uneducated opinion, you understand.
If I could get the black one for $105,000, I would probably go ahead and make due without the garage space for my MB.
Here is my garage problem. Too many cars and not enough garages and this doesn't count my Tundra which sits outside on the street.
Isn't it time to close this tread , the 53 Eldo thread which was much more interesting was closed. In my opinion Amerikanisch will never buy a 59 Britz always an excuse . Park the SL63 outside a car that will fall in value really quickly especially with 100K + mls , here in New Zealand ( a very small Country) there are currently 6 AMG SL63's for sale that I know of all under 30,000 KM & the value of them is falling weekly have been looking at them to replace the SL500 which sits outside in all sorts of weather as the Cadillacs are in the garage , working out the exchange rate the value of these SL63's is about $60K USD if we decide to get one will wait a couple of more years & get one for about $30k. Isn't it time to close this thread.
Quote from: Grant Owen on September 06, 2014, 03:02:20 AM
Isn't it time to close this tread .............. Isn't it time to close this thread.
Then why are you adding to it? :o
You're adding to it because you have an opinion, which is valued here. That is what drives this forum.
There can't be more than a handful of all original '59 Eldos of any style, extant.
Color combo is mega desirable and a/c is icing on the cake.
I wish there were more and better quality photos - especially of the interior.
Can't blame them for shooting for the stars on this one but they'll probably have to settle for less...or not...if the eBay '53 Eldo is anything to judge by.
Wouldn't be half surprised if it turns up at Hershey...
I would go $150,000 on this car.
How about the latest craze on the web, "Crowd Funding". Anyone willing to donate a dollar? Get all of your friends and their friends to donate a dollar too?
I am only $149,000 short currently, but I do have a garage space for it...
My wife has a Benz convertible, it sits outside and it snows here in PA...just sayin.
Brian
Amerikanisch,
Two words " Garage Condo". They do not have them here in DC Metro area, but understand they do have them in Southern CA especially for guys like you. This is an appreciating asset that you can take your time buying. Buy one nearby and then you can store any vehicle in it. There are cable shows on this, I may develop one here in the DC area.
Here is my detached garage built for my hobby back in 2008/2009. I'm 53, and when all the kids are graduated from college in 2022, I may move to our final home and be forced to buy a garage condo myself to remain in the hobby. The garage is geothermal heated and cooled with loft to store parts. It has a workshop and even though it has two doors, it is 28' deep and 32' wide so I can easily get three cars inside. No it does not have a bathroom because then I would never see my family again. Since it is conditioned to 70'F year round, it could store any car regardless of value.
Luckily here in VA 20 miles from DC the land around the County reservoir was up-zoned to prevent pollution and my house is on 2 aces (12,000 lots like this in area), and I could build another three car garage if I wanted too, but wife would likely object.
Let's try for one thousand posts on this thread.
For now enjoy your MB, but a Caddy would be even more fun,
Scot
We should start a new thread "show your garage".
I built a detached garage/shop about 7 years ago.
It's 36 deep and 32 wide. I wish I had done geothermal in it.
It's currently not heated and no insulation or inside Sheetrock.
Maybe next year.
You can get 5 Caddy's in it of you are creative and park one under the lift.
The more space you have the more junk you accumulate though.
Brian
Back in '96, I thought 30' x 40' would be more than enough space I'd even need in my wildest dreams.
Boy was I ever wrong! ::)
BTW - Just watched the "famous" '53 Eldo:
Jumped from $60K to close the bidding @ $71,100 in the last few seconds.
Scot,
Garage condos are in Washington also, "Garage town" is near me but pretty pricey. They have a clubhouse you can schedule for meetings and other amenities. A neighbor has one and he can park about 6 0r 8 cars on the bottom and he is now buying lifts. As I recall asking price on one that size is about $100K Some have built lofts and use lifts to get maximum usage, using a lift to get motorcycles up to the loft. A local installer of garage lifts has his storage and fabrication there also.
I put a lift in my 4 car garage and now I regret not having more high bay area, as lifts are pretty cheap and convenient storage. I have seen lifts made into storage platforms also, Mine has a classic motorcycle and a 1947 Triumph 1800 on it, both awaiting restoration.
It's an SL 65, not a 63. Difference is 12 cylinders instead of 8 and a little more horse power.
The 65 is also a collector's car (50th anniversary edition celebrating the 50th year of the SL model with special carbon fiber trim instead of wood and true black interior instead of gray)- about 1200 produced (fewer than the '59 'ritz)- hence the dilemma.
The other two are new higher end 2014 MB models (wife and daughter's cars) and I cannot see leaving them outside.
I don't know anything about a garage condo and have never heard of one.
We own a couple apartment buildings and I could probably make room in a garage there, but it would be 25 miles away. Kind of ruins the spontaneity.
Amerakinsch,
Now you know - check out garage condos. It is your kind of thing. Appreciating real estate asset, you can park your 12 cylinder MB SL65 in there and watch it grow in value, park your Tundra there to get off the street if you do not use it much, and of course park a classic car in there too. Then when you approach the twilight of your life, sell the cars and garage condo, leaving a wonderful nest egg to your children/charity/or whatever.
Cadillac was developing a 12 cylinder engine in the mid 1960's, and emission regulations killed it, and the 472 V-8 came to market instead in 1968. That is why the 472 is not in the 67 Caddy, wasted time on the 12 cylinder. If Cadillac had brought the 12 to market, wow it would have been extreme torque and smooth!
Gary,
I'm in Washington, DC area on the east coast. I was all kinds of interested in this when you wrote 100k, which is inexpensive in our area. However, garage town is not here yet. The traffic is so bad here (like LA), it is spread out (no buildings due to height restrictions, cannot dwarf US Capital), so while I'm close in to DC location would be quite a factor. This area would have room for 4 garage town locations easy.
Scot,
Didn't know that interesting bit of Cadillac history. I know that back in the 30s Cadillac made 16 cylinder cars. I saw one in a museum in Las Vegas that was once owned by Al Jolson. They didn't generate much hp compared to today's cars, though. My SL 65 generates 604 hp but it almost as heavy as a full-size older Caddy (4300+ pounds), so it's fast but not as fast as you would expect.
In the new MB cars they use more aluminum and the cars are several hundred pounds lighter.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on September 06, 2014, 01:20:44 PM
The 65 is also a collector's car (50th anniversary edition celebrating the 50th year of the SL model with special carbon fiber trim instead of wood and true black interior instead of gray)- about 1200 produced (fewer than the '59 'ritz)- hence the dilemma.
Where's the dilemma?
Are you seriously drawing a comparison between a nearly new modern car and a recognized classic?
For the purposes of investment, there is no comparison.
Eric,
The dilemma is that i want to keep my SL 65 And obtain a classic Caddy as well.
I imagine I might get over my 65 once I get a few really high maintenance bills but right now it's running great and everything works.
The SL 65 will always be a classic too and from here, it should do nothing but increase in value. It's like owning a '59 'ritz in 1968. Sure, I have enjoyed it and put lots of miles on it, but there's always "reconditioning".
Eric is right about MB and most all other cars made after 1980. There very few if any cars that are worth more now than they were when new if made after 1980. It does not take that long for a classic to emerge. My Dad sold his 1970 Olds 442 convertible with 125k original miles on it in 1982 for $5,000. New the car was $4,500.
Unlike they SL65 is going to be 200k in 5 years. Everyone thinks those 94-96 Cadillac Fleetwoods might become a classic - unlikely as a great one goes for 15k, there are lots of them out there and new they were 45k. If they start selling for 50k+ OK they may be, but probably not.
In 1982, just about everything made between 1960 and 1976 of comparable model was a better car than a 1982 model. A 1970 Police car would eat alive a 1982 police car on the drag strip and would carry more prisoners in the back seat.
You cannot buy a five seat RWD V-8 convertible like my 1970 Cadillac. We use it to transport my family to the pool and to out to dinner all the time. I would have just bought a new car if a five passenger RWD V-8 American convertible was being made, but then would have missed out on all the fun.
As everyone has written, these hobby cars are not an investment - plan to lose money or you will be miserable.
Scot,
I don't expect that my 65 will be worth $200,000 for many decades- if ever.
But I do like the car because it is still in excellent condition- in spite of the miles- and relatively rare in addition to to being a roadster and a hard top convertible.
It is probably worth about $40,000 now- just a guess as the non-collectables are worth $34,000 according to Blue Book.
I believe that it may increase in value at this point, but who knows? It could go lower.
But eventually it will start climbing in value if it is well maintained.
It probably won't climb faster than the cost of maintenance but having a collectable is always fun as long as it's not too expensive to maintain.
in 10 or 20 years, I have no doubt that this model will start turning up in museums.
I think that rare cars will always be collectible. Even those post 1980.
Trouble with modern that for nearly every special interest car, there's a group of people mothballing it when new - a phenomenon that began with "last" 1976 Eldorado convertible - a car that took a very long time before it finally reached its original MSRP - let alone adjusted for inflation and in pristine condition with extremely low mileage.
Most true collectibles are never planned, yet it never stops a certain group from repeating the same strategy.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on September 06, 2014, 02:06:14 PM
The SL 65 will always be a classic too and from here, it should do nothing but increase in value.
Ah, maybe in 30yrs or so. For now it will continue to depreciate
Eric, INTM,
You could be right. I am not an authority on investing in cars- nor even a contender.
Based on rarity alone, however, I am anticipating some collectability in the future.
As to how much and when, I have no idea.
But when only 1200 were produced- at an original price tag nearing $200,000- you have got to think that someone will find that "special" at some point in time. Plus it is a really cool and sporty convertible car. Also the first year for the SL65.
If it were a four door sedan- not so much.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on September 06, 2014, 04:45:01 PM
If it were a four door sedan- not so much.
Oh well, I always thought the Eldorado Brougham would be collectible one day.
isn't it?
They can be VERY collectable.
I saw a 1958 Caddy Eldo 'ham at a car show recently and the owner said it was worth around $200k.
It was in excellent condition.
The big problem the newer 'hams have is that they are not all that rare.
I think this will be somewhat of a constraining factor for the 69 and 70 De Ville convertibles. Convertibles in those years were more rare than the hardtops, but nothing like the rarity of the 58 Eldo 'ham. '58 was a recession year and few of these VERY pricey cars were sold.
Amerikanisch,
OK you think the SL65 will be worth more than you paid for it at some point in consideration of inflation, and I do not. On that we can be friends who disagree. I do not know what you paid, and guessing when new it was well over 100k, so if it was to be a valued classic the definition of that would be that it would sell for 200k in 5 to 10 years from now. I don't see it being worth bigger money than the cost of it new ever. I have restored cars, and those seem like they would be almost impossible to restore 30 years from now with the plastic parts, computers, sensors and etc. Plus as others have pointed out the reason some cars became classics was that they were better than new cars ten years later, and I doubt a 2010 SL65 will be better than a 2020 SL65.
Just spoiled my wife with a new car and bought the lifetime warranty thru manufacturer, so everything is covered no matter what as long as we own it. I could never work on some of the things this car has. Even the tilt/telescoping steering wheel is motorized - really?
Point is cars are a hobby or transportation and don't bank on them not depreciating in my opinion.
1958 Eldorado Brougham, my understanding is they made the same approximately in 1957 and 1958 (400 or so each year- not sure?). 200k seems a little bit more than I see them go for, more like 100k for a nice one. The 1959 and 1960 EB 99 made in 59 and 101 made in 1960, so they are more rare but less desirable (not sure why I like them better).
Check out garage condos, for sure that has got to be something you would be interested in.
Enjoy the search for your Cadillac,
Scot
Scot,
I paid $129,900- two years old plus tax and license with 5900 miles- almost like new. The sticker price new with tax was just under $200,000.
The 50th anniversary package was a $7,000 upgrade. Also included a special "silver arrow" paint with more metallic in the paint and special floor mats in addition to the interior trim and upholstery color differences.
I did not think about the non-availability of the tech parts in years to come but you are probably right. When the electronic parts are no longer available, that would be a problem.
Who would want to buy a car where none of the electronics work? If you can get mechanics to "gerry rig" substitutes, they would probably cost a fortune.
Of course, friends always. I appreciate and respect those who have differences of opinion.
Amerikanisch,
129k is a ton of money for a used car. Just don't see the SL65 AMG ever being worth more than 129k, hope you are right though.
Back to your original post you wrote that it was time to indulge a bit. A classic Cadillac will generally be worth what you paid for it and not change too much. The thing is frequently people sell it for a reason, and this is often due to a perceived required improvement they choose to avoid. However, I think from a percentage perspective the value will remain better than the SL65, but it will not be a profit center for you. Bottom line is that the SL may be more of an indulgence than a classic Caddy. Look at like you are buying another high end SL and you will be happy.
I paid 14k (this was not a great buy or a terrible buy - just average at the time) for my 1970 red convertible in 2005, and although it is worth much more today, it is likely not worth more than I have invested in it when you consider my time too.
Anyone buying a new or late model car today with any expectation of appreciation in his or her lifetime would be the soul of optimism - unless you are 7...maybe.
And that would assume you put it away in a climate controlled garage and never drove it.
For classics to appreciate there has to be a good reason, take for an extreme example the year 1985, and consider the SDV from 1969 and 1985:
1969:
375 HP RWD V-8 engine easy to work on ( I know maybe 260 hp when rated in 1985)
seats six comfortably
disk brakes, collapsible steering column, headrests, shoulder belts, solidly built: very safe
Looks great, all metal body
Great driving car
1985:
140hp front drive, V-8
does not seat as many passengers comfortably
disk brakes, collapsible steering column, headrests, shoulder belts
many not durable plastic components
Sorry 1985 Cadillac lovers the 69 Cadillac is more collectable even in 1985, so that is the reason, it was IMO better. Modern cars are getting better than the previous year cars for three decades. mid 1960's was high water mark for American cars in terms of development, and by early 1980's it was the low water mark, and hence a collector market was invigorated immensely.
Here's an instant classic: 2005, 2006 Ford GT. Stickered for $170k, don't know what they really sold for.
At auctions today, they sell for the low to mid $200s. I don't ever see the price of those going down.
2005 and 2006 Ford GT, but few others after 1980, maybe Delorean (spelling?)?
I would go to you MB dealer and get a supply of NOS electronic parts that might fail. Expensive now, but 20 years on, when you need that part...Cheap.
David
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on September 07, 2014, 12:11:04 AM
Scot,
I paid $129,900- two years old plus tax and license with 5900 miles- almost like new. The sticker price new with tax was just under $200,000.
The 50th anniversary package was a $7,000 upgrade. Also included a special "silver arrow" paint with more metallic in the paint and special floor mats in addition to the interior trim and upholstery color differences.
I did not think about the non-availability of the tech parts in years to come but you are probably right. When the electronic parts are no longer available, that would be a problem.
Who would want to buy a car where none of the electronics work? If you can get mechanics to "gerry rig" substitutes, they would probably cost a fortune.
Of course, friends always. I appreciate and respect those who have differences of opinion.
So in two years you lost 90k in depreciation with the SL.
I'll bet you straight up any amount you will never sell that car for what you bought it for in your lifetime. Zero chance, guaranteed.
You must know that discussing the investment potential of a 59 Biarritz against your Mercedes is in fact, not even a discussion.
Even if I thought the SL would be worth -something- in 30 years, I would roll it into a dumpster without a second thought if it helped me acquire a 59 Biarritz.
Point is, not sure why it's even a part of this discussion because nothing could be more irrelevant.
Quote from: chrisntam on September 07, 2014, 12:03:32 PM
Here's an instant classic: 2005, 2006 Ford GT. Stickered for $170k, don't know what they really sold for.
At auctions today, they sell for the low to mid $200s. I don't ever see the price of those going down.
Those ford GTs were bought and put away, not driven hard for 100,000 miles like this mb sl65 the OP has.
Deloreans have bottomed and are rising, slowly, but unless one was bought new and put away, it didn't appreciate.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on September 06, 2014, 03:34:16 PM
Scot,
I don't expect that my 65 will be worth $200,000 for many decades- if ever.
But I do like the car because it is still in excellent condition- in spite of the miles- and relatively rare in addition to to being a roadster and a hard top convertible.
It is probably worth about $40,000 now- just a guess as the non-collectables are worth $34,000 according to Blue Book.
I believe that it may increase in value at this point, but who knows? It could go lower.
But eventually it will start climbing in value if it is well maintained.
It probably won't climb faster than the cost of maintenance but having a collectable is always fun as long as it's not too expensive to maintain.
in 10 or 20 years, I have no doubt that this model will start turning up in museums.
I think that rare cars will always be collectible. Even those post 1980.
I've been reading these later posts with growing amusement. Doesn't that mb SL65 have nearly (or over) 100,000 miles on it? (Just checked, as per OP it does.) That's a lot of miles in a short time, more than my '96 FWB. A lot more than just overall engine wear is occurring. The interior is getting worn at an accelerated rate, levers and switches, suspension parts, etc. Things like the wp, alt, ac comp, are all going to hit end of life (sometimes all at the same time!?!) As several here have already stated, that car's value, especially because of its already high miles will continue to go lower,
and lower.
and lower...
and lower..... :P
Stop kidding yourself about it. You "un-classic'd" it by putting all those miles on it.
Mike, Jim,
Agree but harsh. Amerikanisch knew when he bought the car for 129k and 5.9k miles that it had depreciated 71k with only 5.9k miles added, so value was going to sink like a stone.
OK back to the purchase of a classic Cadillac, where are we with this?
I drove mine all weekend (out to dinner, to the gym, to the Country Club, Auto parts store, dropping off my kids, and etc.) and enjoyed many compliments, thumbs up, enviable glances and the like - not a car for people who do not enjoy attention. A crappy 6 cylinder Lexus tried to beat me at the stop light where it changes from one to two lanes, and that was a joke. The Lexus driver enjoyed the view of the rear fins on my Cadillac I'm sure. Life is better in a Cadillac today.
E-bay does not look like they are offering up too many nice 69/70 Cadillacs today.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on September 07, 2014, 07:48:49 PM
Mike, Jim,
Agree but harsh. Amerikanisch knew when he bought the car for 129k and 5.9k miles that it had depreciated 71k with only 5.9k miles added, so value was going to sink like a stone.
OK back to the purchase of a classic Cadillac, where are we with this?
I drove mine all weekend (out to dinner, to the gym, to the Country Club, Auto parts store, dropping off my kids, and etc.) and enjoyed many compliments, thumbs up, enviable glances and the like - not a car for people who do not enjoy attention. A crappy 6 cylinder Lexus tried to beat me at the stop light where it changes from one to two lanes, and that was a joke. The Lexus driver enjoyed the view of the rear fins on my Cadillac I'm sure. Life is better in a Cadillac today.
E-bay does not look like they are offering up too many nice 69/70 Cadillacs today.
I was not being harsh, just a little humorous, at Mr Stewart's expense. ;)
This was a quote by will in my post: "I believe that it may increase in value at this point, but who knows? It could go lower."
Jim, from what I read, he had the sl65 for 7 (or 5??) years, and it's more like 100,000 or greater depreciation in those 7 years. It was 2 yrs old when he bought it, and in 7 (5??), with a $70K depr, and now another $100K or more drop in value has occurred.
The value of high end imports is
greatly affected by high miles, much more so than US models. I doubt the sl65 will even bring in $30k as a trade. or direct sell at this point. If someone wants to go on auto trader and, be my guest.
There are no decent 1968s up either. Whenever I look at the engine compartment photos, I either shudder or laugh.
Went out lat night in the 68. Took some friends out for one of their birthdays. Car ran a bit warm (temp gauge at 1/2) for first two legs, but later it settled down to the 1/4 mark. Lots of admiring remarks, including envious looks from a bmw m badged convertible with his gf in the seat next to him! Surprised many on the expressway with the power of the car. (That most likely contributed to the heat up on the first leg of the trip).
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on September 07, 2014, 08:06:57 PM
The value of high end imports is greatly affected by high miles, much more so than US models.
Slight clarification:
The value of nearly
any modern "prestige" vehicle will be significantly damaged by high mileage.
Still no great 69/70 Cadillacs for sale on e-bay. There is a 67 Cadillac convertible for sale on e-bay for 18k miles, and price is only 29k. It is with a very reputable antique car dealer on the East Coast. For an 18k original 1960's Cadillac convertible that is an amazing price. It looks to be a prize winning Cadillac!
Quote from: INTMD8 on September 05, 2014, 03:15:33 PM
I have to say, black suits this car well. I need more money!!!! Aaaahhhhhh ;D
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/cadillac/eldorado_biarritz/1678340.html
Did anyone buy this? Anyone know how I can sell organs on the black market?
Maybe if I sold my house... :(
Incidentally, I was just looking at the interior trim available for '59 EBZ and there is no selection for black & white leather listed which suggests this could well be a special order car.
It would be very interesting to see the body plate!
I was chasing the car for 15 years, went to see it, nice car that needs restoration, or use as is needing all
175k??????
Quote from: wrefakis on September 09, 2014, 06:58:47 PM
I was chasing the car for 15 years, went to see it, nice car that needs restoration, or use as is needing all
175k??????
You must have eyes on every 1959 EBZ in existence.
It sounds like there are not too many 59 EBZ in existence worth keeping track of, so maybe it is not that bad of a fun job after all.
No, they are just not making any more of them, and once the list is drawn up from the build sheets of 1958 and 1959, it is just a matter of "luck" when more come to light.
Bruce. >:D
Under no circumstances would I even think of restoring that car - outside of basic mechanical freshening & general repair and detailing.
Call me silly.
Hello Eric
I concur this is a well preserved Biarritz that is a SMART acquisition.
C.R.,
But for $175,000?
A lot to pay for an unrestored '59 EB, is it not?
Oh, and just to clarify,
Yes, I could afford it, C.R., but I am Scottish ;).
That's only the asking.
I doubt it's the bottom figure.
You will probably never see another unrestored one for sale like that.
I called them today about purchasing the car and it has been sold to someone in Europe.
That's what I get for waiting a few days to call.
Well, that's that... :-[
End of the line for me , tried to get at it for 16 years, one phone call , lost for good.
My last unanswered letter to the owner was aug 14 must have crossed in mail with phone call to dealer
no more to chase
Amerikanisch,
The car is gone. That is what I'm saying. A good car will be bought real quick, bringing new reality to the saying "he who hesitates is lost". And if this was my first collector car purchase consideration I would have lost it too. By the time you raise a question others who know the answer swoop in and buy it. With all due respect you don't stand a chance. It is a seller's market.
If I was in the market and found out about a car like this, I would drop everything and have traveled there with a magnet and screw driver along with my check book. If it passed my test I would buy it before departure.
Start with something easy, and then you will become ready to make a big buy fast.
I was born in Aberdeen Scotland, hence the Scot with one "T" spelling. My parents were on an extended trip and they would not let my 8 month pregnant Mother on the plane. Believe me I get it. You invest in real estate. If you over paid 10% in 1982 it really would not matter now.
Good luck,
Scot
Quote from: chrisntam on September 05, 2014, 06:43:56 PM
Do I see cruise control on the dash? and I see a vent in the dash, is it an a/c car?
Iffin I were Amerikanisch, I'd be on the phone, plunking down a deposit and on the next plane to the northeast.
:o
I wrote this on September 5.
I think my work is done here.
I am sure that must have been a good deal, but I am not one jump until I am ready. True with real estate, true for cars.
Supposedly, Dallas is the new place for real estate investment and I am headed out there next week if events continue in the same direction as now.
It would be nice to find a nice Caddy while I am there.
P.S. I E mailed on that black Caddy and nobody E mailed me back. Maybe it was already gone?
So that one went (or is going) to Europe. Well, they usually don't come back.
W Stewart, with these cars, you need to get educated so you can move fast, and that means calling. Otherwise, someone else is already on the phone with them, not writing. I'm sure it didn't go for the full $175K, but within 10% of that is almost a certainty.
If you aren't comfortable with making a very quick remote assessment and are not prepared to fly out to the car, you are never going to get a 1959 anything.
Even to get a nice 1996 Fleetwood, I had to book a quick flight from FL to SC checkbook in hand (actually there are BOAs all over SC, so I just went to the bank, after I saw the car).
There are certain types of cars that are In Demand, and ready buyers are out there looking and ready to act. 1959 Bairritz's are at the top of the heap of Cadillacs, and they are going to go for real hard $$$,$$$. As Scot has noted numerous times, your operational time lag will never let you get one of these. By the time you are "ready" and we don't know the definition of "ready in this situation, three people will have already made offers, and the car will be going somewhere, but not to your house.
You might seriously want to consider something later (1968-70).
The only real way to get one is not to advertise, or let anyone know you are interested, and just watch all the selling sites, world-wide, and get in first.
If ever you make known that you are looking at one, Murphys' Law will come into play, and ity will be bought out from under you.
Bruce. >:D
Buying a late model used MB for 100k a few years ago would allow time to kick the tires and negotiate, because there are not a lot of buyers of that product in that price range. Plus Southern CA is an area of the Country where there are likely to be more of this type of car concentrated than any other, which provides convenience and selection. The seats two (limited practicality) and 12 cylinders (expensive to maintain) are even turn-off's in the MB club. A few years ago it was more of a buyer's market. Now it is more of a seller's market.
A two years ago it was time to buy another car for our family that would be driven on a regular basis. Got my wife to agree to this and established a budget Sunday night. Found one on e-bay and went to look at it Monday. It was better than represented on e-bay and I drove it Monday. Tuesday night I was the high bidder on e-bay and won the car. On Thursday afternoon the car was in my garage with tags, all inspected registered, legally mine.
July 2014 after GN in NY returned home Monday afternoon and my wife had the car brochure open on the kitchen counter to greet me. She wanted to buy it that night. I had prepared for this event. The type of car; RWD American V-8, seats 5 or more was good for me and the price was great. That Monday night the car was in garage within 4 hours after my return.
On these two cars I was not in a hurry. In almost 40 years of buying cars this way, never was disappointed.
After reading how these 59 EBZ (or even another 1970 Cadillac convertible) are being sold, the money needed to make the purchase would be out of my investment account and sitting in the bank, an emergency bag would be packed, the wife and kids would be on notice, and my car would be always full of gas.
It is unlikely that you will run into a car in TX to buy during your business trip, hope you do though.
I think Art, Jim, Bill, Scot and Mike have all have it right: A '59 Biarritz is not a car for the beginner nor feint of heart. Extremely rare cars to begin with, require specialized attention and care with seemingly endless amounts of suitors.
Quote from: rwchatham CLC 21892 on September 10, 2014, 04:38:58 PM
You will probably never see another unrestored one for sale like that.
I called them today about purchasing the car and it has been sold to someone in Europe.
That's what I get for waiting a few days to call.
Now for the really bad news:
I just spoke with the seller who has confirmed my suspicions: The car is indeed an SO -
S0 868 to be precise.
I strongly felt this might be the case with the black & white interior which is a non-standard combination.
This car located not too far from me and I would like to go see and photograph this car for posterity before it's gone for good.
What a great car. I just hope whoever gets it keeps it as-is and doesn't restore it.
Quote from: INTMD8 on September 11, 2014, 10:54:30 AM
What a great car. I just hope whoever gets it keeps it as-is and doesn't restore it.
I could not agree more.
Destination is...London. Perhaps they'll use it in the next coronation procession. lol!
And if you can believe it, the seller had no idea about the SO until I called. And nobody who called even knew about or mentioned it.
The chap in London is going to get an extra pleasant surprise - if and when he researches this baby out.
Hello Eric
I appreciate you for taking the initiative to acquire pictures of this rare specimen before it is exported. The DNA will be fascinating. Thank you very much.
Quote from: 49er on September 11, 2014, 10:11:00 AM
I don't think you will ever buy a car. ... ... We will all be dead before you make up your mind.
Ummmm,
Speak for yourself. I plan on being around for a while yet, and Mr Stewart might finally get off the fence one day,
or week,
or month,
or year. :P
I'm ten years younger than Amerakinsch, sure hope to outlive a man ten years older than me while enjoying Cadillacs the entire time.
49er,
I have lost more money than I care to admit by leaping before I took a good look.
After getting burned so many times, I now err on the side of caution.
When I have the garage space, I cannot imagine that you would be right but goals do sometimes change over time.
I am sure that this black and white was a great car- of course I would not know this without your collective confirmations. Not a big fan of black with a white top, though. I like black on Porsches far better than I do on '59 Caddys.
P.S. Scot, I hope to be around for a while too. Longevity runs on the paternal side of my family. Grandma lived to 101, Grandpa to 90. Dad smoked and only made it to 81, though.
Amerikanisch,
Back to the basics on the subject of cars. You asked for advice on a subject you were unfamiliar with which is what smart people do. You have received basically the same advise from everyone, all smart people, many who are likely in similar economic fortunate circumstances as yourself (your peers). You defend your way of approaching a buy, which has failed numerous times during this column. It takes a smart guy like yourself to realize that you are not going about this in a way proven successful by others. The responders of this column all own cars similar to the models you may desire, and they are telling you how to buy them.
You have to take a leap of faith, but start with something manageable. If you buy a 1970 Cadillac for 25k and it is worth really 12k (latent rust damage, cracked block or etc. - well hidden), so what. Look at the positive, you can make it worth 25k with money and have a lot of fun doing it. Eventually it will be worth more.
Here is fun (fun for me anyway) a story that is common to collectors for you to enjoy, that you may not have anticipated is part of the hobby:
My friend buys the perfect 1970's Cadillac with 24k original documented miles. He is driving on the highway to a show I am already at and calls me. He broke down and did not know why. He heard a loud bang while driving 65 mph on the highway and the car engine stopped removing his power brakes and steering. He coasted to the side of the highway and was waiting for a tow truck to bring him to the show (it was at a car dealer) for repairs. Now for the other readers of the post the fun has already begun because they are trying to figure out what happened-and have. The backfire most likely had to be un-ignited gasoline that traveled to the hot exhaust system and fired there. So it is likely a global spark issue, confining it to the distributor, coil, or rotor. Unlikely to be a bad rotor or distributor cap, upon arrival I had a spare coil in my trunk, we installed it and the car has been running ever since. Probably when the car failed the owner was not having fun, he enjoyed the show after the car was repaired for $10, and he drove home on schedule in time for dinner with the wife.
That is part of the non-money making hobby - are you up for it?
We are all trying to help you. Your way will not seem to work, we all may have tried it to a limited extent at the beginning too.
On the money thing, if you cannot think of the car purchase as money out of use for ten years, never to recover your investment type of thing, it is not wise to buy in. This is supposed to be fun, not an accounting class.
Enjoy life!
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on September 11, 2014, 01:21:00 PM
When I have the garage space, I cannot imagine that you would be right but goals do sometimes change over time.
Would you mind changing the title to "Not searching for 1959 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz"
;D
For the love of GOD will someone lock this thread or better yet, delete the whole thing?
Respectfully,
Brian
Thought we were going for 1,000 posts on this thread. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's mind, but I have learned a few things and it is enjoyable. Less than 500 to go.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on September 11, 2014, 01:21:00 PM
49er, ... When I have the garage space, I cannot imagine that you would be right but goals do sometimes change over time....
Don't tell me we are back on this again. Kick the steadily declining mb out to the curb where it belongs. You already nuked it as a collector by racking up over 100,000 miles on it.
Quote from: AMERIKANISCH on September 11, 2014, 01:21:00 PM...I am sure that this black and white was a great car- of course I would not know this without your collective confirmations. Not a big fan of black with a white top, though. I like black on Porsches far better than I do on '59 Caddys...
Er, um, Black is the quintessential car color for classic Cadillacs of all years, even recent ones. Even here in FL it is 2nd most popular color.
Quote from: 49er on September 11, 2014, 01:55:19 PM
Your type of person is the very last who should such a car. Seen the type a lot. Always a stop sign. ...
Um,,, is there a or phrase missing between should & such?? perhaps purchase? or "be trying to acquire". I think I get it, of course I do, but,
The grammar police just struck. :D
Scot, you are next. (noun vs. verb on a word beginning with ad).
What you wrote was very well said. Maybe I should keep my spare coil, points, cap & rotors in the trunk. If I take a long trip, it goes, but normally that's all on the side of the garage, with the spare WP, PSP, ALT, hoses, etc.
Mike,
I'm an engineer and terrible with spelling and grammar. My intelligent daughter molds my broken engineering thoughts into brilliantly written letters when required, which is seldom.
Here is a nice laugh for you. in 2001 a 300 employee company hired me as a full time employee receiving W-2 and all as their correspondent to write letters and explain technical items to the nontechnical. The pinnacle of their wise hire was when they were sued for 5 million in 2009 for which they did not have insurance coverage (would have bankrupted the company), and during trial I was their star witness that their lawyer rested their case upon (last to testify), and we won handily. I still work there and they think I'm a great writer.
Anyway, there is an article on what you should carry in your trunk and I do.
grammar police, tire kickers, as well as a true collector that chased 868 for 15 years only to lose out to a dealer that did not even know what he bought!
Quote from: wrefakis on September 11, 2014, 08:20:46 PM
grammar police, tire kickers, as well as a true collector that chased 868 for 15 years only to lose out to a dealer that did not even know what he bought!
Will, Are you referring to the recent seller here in the US, or the equally unknowing person in London who bought the SO 868 car??
So, why didn't you buy it??? Too much dinero? Well, not to that Londoner.
To a Londoner, with the currency exchange rate, that is a "half-price" vehicle. As numbers go.
To us Aussies, it would be a $200,000.00 car
Bruce. >:D
Well,
It looks like some people have enjoyed this thread. I know that I have and I thank each and every one of you.
For those who did not/do not enjoy it, there is always the option of not reading it and definitely, I would think about the option of not commenting on it.
Thank You!
As a sidebar, with regards to SO: Would I be correct in assuming that "868" is the numerical sequence of SO cars built up until the point that car was built?
868 is body number so indicates special trim there is no so sequence production was random as ordered, 652 was the same so in red and white
wrefakis,
I know what you mean about not understanding what was purchased. I could not buy a 59 EBZ or low mileage 59 Caddy because I would really want to drive it a lot and it would be just wrong. If I bought a 59 Caddy, it would have to be a high mileage no rust car that I make my own.
Same thing happened to me on my 1970 four door convertible, the guy who had it before me left it outside for extended periods and just treated it like many of the public cares for a regular car. Hoping to finish that restoration up next year.
The Europeans really have an edge as they can buy our cars with a 50% discount. If that 868 old for 170k $us, that might be 90k in Europe, and you might have purchased the car for $90k us.
This will drive the value of what we own now up, so that is the silver lining. The law of supply and demand will equal everything out soon anyway.
Quote from: wrefakis on September 12, 2014, 12:10:39 PM
868 is body number so indicates special trim there is no so sequence production was random as ordered, 652 was the same so in red and white
In other words the SO# is simply the same as the FW#?
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on September 12, 2014, 12:20:55 PM
The Europeans really have an edge as they can buy our cars with a 50% discount. If that 868 old for 170k $us, that might be 90k in Europe, and you might have purchased the car for $90k us.
I have often heard this said but I have always wondered how true that is - because that would assume the currency unit in question would have no greater purchasing power in its country of origin than the USD would have in the US.
For example, if a Big Mac costs $2.00 in the US, do we know for a fact it costs 2 Pounds (Sterling) in the UK or is it only 1 Pound?
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on September 12, 2014, 12:20:55 PM
wrefakis,
I know what you mean about not understanding what was purchased. I could not buy a 59 EBZ or low mileage 59 Caddy because I would really want to drive it a lot and it would be just wrong.
That part I disagree with. I don't think it would be wrong to drive the car as long as condition was maintained.
If I was able to buy it I would have driven the car. If by the time I was dead I put 200k miles on it but kept it nice I think that means I got my monies worth ;D
so number and fw number on 59 always the same
INTMD8,
I hear you, cars should be driven and I drove my 1970 Cadillac top down and all to pick up my daughter at school, drove to the gym, errands and then out to dinner with my wife. It was great, and I'm not going to own a car that is not driven and enjoyed. I just would feel bad about taking a 30k mile original 59 ELB and driving it like that. Earlier in the summer drove my car to the pool, got in with towels on the seats to protect the perfect brand new leather from wet swim suits, and etc. I treat my 1970 Cadillac carefully and maintain it meticulously, but pretend it is 1970 and drive it. I went through a brand new top in six years, just like it was the 70's again. The 9 year old paint is getting some chips after 34k miles driven.
You get the idea, I would hate to make an original 59 EBZ not original. However, my 1970 Cadillac was completely restored at 90k mile and nothing is original, yet it is in excellent condition, very desirable. Feel no guilt in enjoying the hell out of it.
Everyone has their thing, and the CLC has room for everyone. The touring car daily drivers, to the trailered only cars, to the don't own a Cadillac members.
This weekend I'm repairing a 40k original blue 1976 Cadillac Talisman climate control system and resolving a run ability problem - that is my golf.
Drive your Cadillac(s) a lot this weekend,
Scot
All cars should be driven. That is what they were made for.
Don't drive them and they will deteriorate, internally.
My '72 ELC, as was my '60 CDV, is a daily driver, and will take it on most roads. Even got caught in the floods of '12 in Victoria.
It was either drive through, or retrace our steps 50 miles to find another route.
But, we made it. Had to drive on the wrong side of the road as the locals said there was a wash-away on the left side. (We found that on the first attempt)
Bruce >:D
Bruce,
Agreed nice cars should be preserved by driving them. The important being preserved. There are other ways to keep a low mileage very valuable and rare car preserved without wearing it out. I only buy cars that I will drive and enjoy, just writing down what ones I like to buy.
For me it is not in the cards to drive a super rare low mileage desirable older car because I would feel guilty wearing it out and maintaining it (making it not-original low mile anymore), that is INTMD8's job.
Generally never a week goes by here in VA (zip 22039) that my classics are not driven even in winter, because it does not snow often. Can't drive after a snow because of heavy salt applications. Don't drive classics in rain because what fun is that. Avoiding salted roads and precipitation really extends life of classics.
Enjoy your Cadillacs
I have put just over 2500 miles on the 61 in the 14 months I've owned it. Yes, it was sad to see the 1 disappear when it rolled over to 20,000mi on the way to the GN. That was quickly forgotten. I drove it 320mi round trip to a car show last weekend.
Yes, I have a trailer for it for longer trips like to Hershey, but the fun is in the driving and the more I drive it, the better it works and I know it's doing it some good. On and off a trailer to a show would do more harm both to the car and to the enjoyability.
Drive it, maintain it fastidiously, and you wont regret it.
Dan,
Been meaning to compliment you on the 61 Fleetwood, I saw it at GN and it was amazing and spectacular. If I was looking for any Cadillac and came across that car, I would have purchased it. Really like the 61 and 62 Cadillacs, especially due to those cool lower fins. That is why classic car buying to me is more of preparedness meets opportunity rather than a search for a specific year, model, color combo, and options.
OK, if your driving that car that much, then if I ever buy a low mileage original, will do same. Leading by example - thanks.
Thanks Scot for your kind words.
This year was the exception rather than the rule however. In future years the driving will be limited to about 1000mi per year. I wanted to do just one trip driving it. Fall Hershey was too far last year and too much interstate driving but Lake George was perfect. All back country roads all the way with minimal interstate driving.
I've already picked the out of town shows for next year and that will be about 600mi. That leaves 400mi for ice cream runs and drives through town for the rest of the year.
The more I drive it the better it works.
Dan,
GN 2014 was a 1,300 mile trip for me because traveled home thru NE to visit my parents. GN 2015 is like 650 miles I think in one day, so plan to attend with my red Caddy, probably end being a 1,400 mile trip in all with stops/tours and the like. My rule is if I can drive the trip in a day, I will do it. The 1970 loves the interstates best, so prefer to be in the left lane driving as fast as the faster traffic pack allows. My car is more of a 3 to 4k a year vehicle. At 1,000 miles per year it is likely the car will outlast you - guess that is the idea.
Again, that is one great car! Always liked the Fleetwoods. My Grandmother drove a SDV from 1961 (1961, 1964, 1967, 1973, and 1982 (did not care for the 82 w/4.1)) until her death in 1990. She always aspired to a Fleetwood, but sighed and said "only people with money could buy one". She could have easily afforded to buy one every year (depression era suffering syndrome?).
See you at GN 2015. Will not be driving to LV 2016. In 2017 will be helping to run GN in Washington, DC (20 mile trip for me to hotel).
Scot
Gang,
I am headed out to Dallas-Ft. Worth to check out the house-flipping there next Saturday. If it's as good as I have heard, my daughter and her boyfriend will move there and start buying and rehabbing homes for sale.. which means, a garage space will open up... which means..... my problem will be solved.
If the stories are true, I will miss my daughter, but the birdie has to fly from the nest sooner or later and we will get together for the holidays either there or here.
Of course, I would fund the venture so I would have to keep an eye on the goings on, which would complicate my life a little but I should be able to squeeze some car hunting into my schedule.
This is my opportunity to help the kids make some decent money (hopefully). I would have given my eye teeth if my parents had helped me get started. As it was, I had to be a "self starter".
I'll keep you posted.
I know that 49er thinks that I am just blowing smoke and it will never happen, BUT....
If I were fortunate enough to own a '59 EB, I would just drive it locally on the weekends and perhaps in the Huntington Beach Fourth of July Parade. My character is Ben Franklin and I know people who play Abe Lincoln (a real pro who plays Lincoln in TV commercials- he even was born with the Lincoln facial mole- only on the opposite side.), Alexander Hamilton and Martha Washington.
We were in the HB Fourth of July Parade a couple years ago but being driven in the '59 Caddy would be doing it in STYLE with a capital "S". As an aside, our truck broke down and we had to hoof it most of the way down the parade route (That was a two mile stroll in Franklin shoes that took my feet a while from which to recuperate).
A '59 EB would be too old and temperamental to be a daily driver and also too valuable as an investment vehicle.
I prefer to have a nice, modern car for my daily driver- like an MB SL or a Porsche. A sporty convertible roadster that is also very reliable is my favorite daily driver.
Scot,
I know all about depression era mentality. My Dad always bought top of the line Buicks and Mercurys- never a Caddy or a Continental. I reminded him that a Cadillac was only a few thousand more than his 1970 Buick Electra. He said "Yes, I know. But I don't want the neighbor's to think I am trying to show off."
Where I live in South Orange County, nobody cares what you drive. Everyone is so involved in their own lives, you might get a wave once in a while- but that's it. Impressing the neighbors or "showing off" never even comes to mind. I am really more into impressing myself and if others are impressed, all the better. ;)
Amerikanisch,
Make plans to attend GN 2015 (it is the national Cadillac LaSalle show in Wisconsin June 24, thru 27, 2015). You can attend for one day, or the entire time. This give you a sample of every year from say 1955 thru 1979 for sure and of course almost every year out of that band. You may see a Cadillac you like better than the ones you mentioned. Plus there will be cars for sale. The rooms are only $105 a night or so. This will probably help you more than this forum.
I'm in the construction industry and have to drive a Chevrolet truck. If I pull up in a Cadillac on job sites it will not be good for me professionally. Funny though if I drive up in the 1970 Cadillac it makes people smile.
My 14 year old daughter will be out of the house in Fall of 2018, and the wife and I look forward to an empty nest. That will open up some parking spaces for me too.
Hope you buy a Cadillac
Scot,
I have Rapid Reward air miles. I just may show up there in Wisconsin and surprise you :D.
Amerikanisch,
Make it happen. If you like Cadillacs, you will not regret it. Go all day Saturday minimum (arrive Friday night, leave Sunday) and attend the banquette in the evening. We probably have a lot to talk about beside Cadillacs making sure our children are going to be OK in the future - not a subject for this thread though. Look me up in the 1970 section.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on September 15, 2014, 05:38:57 PM
Amerikanisch,
Make it happen. If you like Cadillacs, you will not regret it. Go all day Saturday minimum (arrive Friday night, leave Sunday) and attend the banquette in the evening. We probably have a lot to talk about beside Cadillacs making sure our children are going to be OK in the future - not a subject for this thread though. Look me up in the 1970 section.
Is that like a mini banquet? :P
Scot,
I'll be the short, pudgy guy who looks like Ben Franklin (except I have a full head of hair) ;D.
Mike,
You should go and find out. OK, I will tell you. It is a real banquette. Usually tarts at 6pm with cocktail hour, then into the dining room (probably 600 people there). They serve food while some announcements are made and then awards after dinner. Very nice evening.
Lately the GN is very well attended because it is so fun. It used to be that area more remote suffered less participation, but not any more. There will be 300 Cadillacs there.
Big talk. Amerikanish's have you joined this club yet? All great talk about the Grand National but it's for Members only. TomCLC #6866
I thought you could not be on the forum unless you joined the club. Presumed everyone participating is a club member. Am I wrong about that?
Amerikanisch, are you a club member? If not that is true, you must be a member to attend, it is not open to the public.
I don't know why it is not open to the public, but I am pleased it is not. We don't want a mother leaning on our cars with toddler in arms eating an ice cream cone dripping on our interior for example. Plus the show field is kind of crowded with club members and there would not be room for public.
Anyone can sign up for a log on here.
No need to be a dues paying member.
Lots of debate on this topic.
Brian
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on September 16, 2014, 12:47:47 AM
Mike,
You should go and find out. OK, I will tell you. It is a real banquette. Usually tarts at 6pm with cocktail hour, then into the dining room (probably 600 people there). They serve food while some announcements are made and then awards after dinner. Very nice evening.
Lately the GN is very well attended because it is so fun. It used to be that area more remote suffered less participation, but not any more. There will be 300 Cadillacs there.
I was at the 2012 GN in St Augustine. My region hosted it. We had only about 175 cars (no LaSalles) that year. FL is
HOT, even in June & it rains a lot, and everyone knows this. So many stayed away. We did get several trailer queens arriving Fri night / early Sat morning. And it rained in the middle of the judged show on Sat. I kept my top up all day, but still had to run over and raise the windows.
While the inside events are closed to the public, I saw no active attempt at keeping out spectators during the 2012 GN. Admittedly I wasn't paying much attention, being busy judging two classes in the early 60s, but the hotel's parking (except for our show area) was not blocked off to other hotel guests, etc, and someone there for any other reason (that Renaissance was quite large), could have wandered into the show area at any time.
Anyone can join this forum. I'm neutral on the subject. I hope it encourages others to become members.
Mike,
The reason 2012 GN was not as well attended as it could have been in my opinion was that it was on Father's day weekend. That really got my goat, there I actually wrote it down.
Have made a huge deal out of this so it will not happen again. You can do a lot with statics 2009GN and 2012 GN were both on father's day weekends, so 50% of the GN's were on father's day weekend in a four year period. Being Father of three, ages 13, 15 & 17 in 2012 you can't go away for the entire weekend, maybe for a 4 hour car show in the am. I really wanted to attend that show because I wanted to drive on the track. I know I'm a minority in the club with school age kid at home and a living Father, but kids are the club's future. GN Father's day weekend is anti-family.
Thanks for letting me vent.
OK, guess I will be neutral too on member/non-member participation because I have been enjoying it. Now I know.
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on September 16, 2014, 09:48:13 AM
I thought you could not be on the forum unless you joined the club. Presumed everyone participating is a club member. Am I wrong about that?
Amerikanisch, are you a club member? If not that is true, you must be a member to attend, it is not open to the public.
I don't know why it is not open to the public, but I am pleased it is not. We don't want a mother leaning on our cars with toddler in arms eating an ice cream cone dripping on our interior for example. Plus the show field is kind of crowded with club members and there would not be room for public.
I thought the show field was open to the public.
If public spectatorship is barred at any open CLC show, I've never seen nor heard any evidence of it and would be the first to deplore any effort to do so.
Well they had an attractive young lady at the front gate of the hotel in Lake George. She stopped my car on two entries to tell me the event was for the CLC and not open to the general pop. No need to produce any registration info to her but the gate was staffed most of the day Friday and Saturday. Tom CLC#6866
Point of view from a "non-member" here. Because of the forum, I will likely become a member. No big deal, what is it, $30 to $50 per year?
Another point of view of attendance at the shows. New York would be too far away for me to travel to. Wisconsin, on the other hand, is a lot closer, though I still may not attend, but it's awfully inviting!
I'm in Dallas. Vegas in '16 would be too far too. And when I say "too far", I mean to drive the Cadillac. But that's just me thinkin'.
chris.
The one that is going to be by me next year would need a hell of a lot of fencing to keep people out.
I don't think that people will mind outsiders looking at the cars.
I have never had a problem with people looking at my car at any show I go to.
Roy
I think letting the public in on show day would help get the word out about the club and maybe help attract members.
I won't be in WI next year because of scheduling conflicts but is will be in Vegas. Wayyyyyy too far to drive so I'll be there sans-car, but will have fun anyway. I'll likely judge again at that one.
Agreed.
No better press for the CLC & Cadillac and La Salle automobiles than for the public to come and enjoy seeing the fine cars they are. Equally important is for the young to gain this experience - after all, who is going to carry the torch in future generations?
*Anybody notice the nice letter of appreciation from the Mayor of Lake George for this year's GN in the Spetember issue of the Self Starter?
I am no expert on the matter, but from what I know, one has to be a Member of the US CLC to be able to register for any GN, plus attend official functions and daily events. The entry to the Show Field on the final day is open to the General Public to view all the lovely vehicles gathered for the judging.
I know the registration question as even though I was a Member of the Australian CLC, I had to join the USA CLC to come in 2002. I think a lot of it has to do with Insurance.
Bruce. >:D
Can we stop adding to this thread? This has become a Catch All issue thread and lately NOTHING To Do With find a 59 Eldorado. How about a Global Moderator locking this or moving it to Wanted section. You guys are so diligent on other posting and so tolerant of this one. Tom CLC#6866
Amerikanisch,
Back to the topic, have we helped you on what to do on the 59 EBZ?
Agreed with Tom Pirog. This thread has run its course.