Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Hello, please see attached scan from the MPB for an assembly diagram showing the part I'm referring to with this. (I have obtained the part to replace on my car).

I have limited experience of less than 5 years in the world of 1941 Cadillacs. However in that time, I've noticed that very often - I would venture to even say more often than not- when I see a 41 whether restored or even original this part seems to be missing, with the telltale piece being the missing fasteners for the top of it in the shroud.

Having located one I will replace it as I wrote - it's the right thing to do to be faithful to the car as it should be there and to quote a kind CLC friend who is an excellent technician "...Never doubt Cadillac engineering!" :).

I'm really curious if anyone knows why it seems routinely to have been removed and not replaced over the course of time. I'd assume it makes life difficult for some task such as horn or turn signal/parking light maintenance work and when these were just old cars it happened. This is just a question borne of curiosity; hoping that some long experienced 1941 folks might know the answer.

Thanks
Scott

Edit: Just for the sake of conversation, there are presently four cars on eBay - 2 restored and 2 restomod. 3 of them do not have the part, and the last one doesn't have a photo of the top of the shroud. I've attached a photo to show the location of the fasteners for the part.  Agreeing with Barry, it's so odd...

I can think of no reason why this part was not re-installed. It's merely a brace and easy to work around. It's also sturdy and not hard to put back in, and it's on my car. You've got me...

I'll have to look at mine.

Thank you Joe and Barry.

Small update - for any folks that have original cars or know their fasteners for this part to be original, I'd appreciate a note or ideally a photo regarding which is correct. There seems to be two kinds of the 1/4-20 under the hood. Those with a concave 'dimple' in the head and those with a cast 'w'. (I received a mix of both with the part). Also were they unfinished, cadmium, or painted black with the shroud? I'm assuming unfinished or cadmium. A friend allowed me to view an original car he has access to but this turned out to be missing there too.

Seeing the option for a poll, I threw one up there for fun. Hope it isn't annoying.

Thanks
Scott

Scott, I think you are a little confused here. The picture from the parts book listing the Baffle shows it to be bolted way to the front just behind the grill and behind the hood guide hole. The holes you point to in your photo are nothing to do with the baffle. I don't know what those holes are for but I have 3  1941s here and they all have those holes with nothing in them and the unrestored original parts car I have has never had a bolt fitted through these holes yet still has the baffle you talk of??

My '41 67 series was in mostly original condition, no repaints, interior original along with engine and even the stenciled VIN on the core support. There was a small metal standup frame with the owners card mounted in those holes that you show Scott. My new computer doesn't recognize my camera yet so I can't post a picture.    Harry

Harry and Steve - hm... Although I did not remove the part myself (thus the fastener question) nor have I installed it yet it just so seemed clear. I did note that the MPB doesn't show the fasteners from the top but then the baffle it illustrates really doesn't look like the actual part either so I wrote it off. I will have to take the shroud off in order to work through how it fits together on my car then. The fastener holes at the top of the baffle I obtained would appear to fit into those holes in the shroud but I understand your point Steve.

I don't recall seeing the mounting for an owners card there but again am grateful for the help of folks with deeper experience than mine. I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

-Scott

Scott, The owner's card goes into a slot sewn on the RH cardboard under the glove box under the dash.

Quote from: Barry M Wheeler #2189 on April 02, 2015, 09:13:03 AM
Scott, The owner's card goes into a slot sewn on the RH cardboard under the glove box under the dash.

Thats just what I was going to say. never seen the owners card inside the hood  Harry??  new one on me.

Probably this is one of those things that can just go on into time...while I'm aware of the owners card mounting on the right side of the kickpanel (I have a mounting and a repro card, I think McVeys sells them, possibly others), I've not actually seen an owners card mounting on the shroud as Harry quotes. However I never discount the value of deep experience as I've written. So searching around, here's one YouTube vid showing such: https://youtu.be/Fhf2KMk2gGM  There's a glimpse at the beginning and then a good view at about 1:08. But there's still the middle hole unfilled.  :o

Further, while entirely possibly unrelated, here is a video of a car with a different shroud - it has a center concave relief which has a 'V' in the middle whereas mine is straight. Maybe it makes a difference per series - ? Video is of a Fleetwood 75 7 passenger, perhaps having more in line with Harry's 67 series than my 62. https://youtu.be/3h3Ae4os27w

Thats what I love about this hobby, something new comes up every day.  That video clearly shows a card fixed to the shroud so my apologizes to you Harry.
I have owned four 62 series, and two 61 series and never had this card in that position and if you look at the picture of the hole in my last reply you will see there has never ever been anything bolted in there.  I'm now more confused though as just what would designate a car to have it fitted there?  I could believe it with different series as Harrys is a 67 but Scotts first video link is a 62 series and that has it too :o??

My car also has an owner card holder sewn into the right kick panel. One explanation may be the holder under the hood is for service recording as shown in the first video and the actual owner card goes in the car. If someone has a data book it may explain. Just to keep things stirred up, the baffle in question on my '41 is much larger than the one shown in the illustration. As best I was able to measure it is approx 11" at the top and tapers down to approx 9" at the bottom. In checking the MPB it shows that the major components of the core support interchange with all series.     Harry

I don't know 41's as I am always telling Scott.  40's have a similar piece that goes tight to the center of the grille.  I have always thought the purposes of it is to improve the looks of the grille.  At certain angles you can not look through to the other side of the  grille with this baffle in place.  This makes for consistent light reflections off of the grille from all angles.  I can't tell from the parts illustration if the position of the 41 baffle would function in this manner.  On the 40's both Cadillac and LaSalle the piece has little if any structural significance.   

I thought this topic was discussed years & years ago in the Cad/LaS Club.   I could be wrong, but I thought the answer was something along the lines of the earlier production cars had the baffle, and then it was dropped part way through the 1941 year because it really didn't do anything.  The holes were still there for it on all the cars though.  So if you have an earlier production car you have the baffle, a later one just two empty holes.   

   

Quote from: k8096 on April 03, 2015, 11:59:28 PM
I thought this topic was discussed years & years ago in the Cad/LaS Club.   I could be wrong, but I thought the answer was something along the lines of the earlier production cars had the baffle, and then it was dropped part way through the 1941 year because it really didn't do anything.  The holes were still there for it on all the cars though.  So if you have an earlier production car you have the baffle, a later one just two empty holes.   

   

I think that makes sense.

I have heard the same thing about the radiator baffle. This is similar to the firewall to radiator support rods on the 60S, some early cars have them, later ones don't.

Terry Wenger

The early model carryover explanation makes sense. The illustration in the MPB for the 1940 shows the wide baffle as Brad points out and the illustration for the '41 is the slimmed down version. My 67 series was built in the Fall of 1940.    Harry

I have just finished restoring a 1948-7519 and as this 75 model has only had some very minor changes since it appeared in 1941 I looked out of curiosity at the baffle in question, here.
There is one all right and it is impossible to remove it without first taking off the radiator shroud, It is basically triangular and much larger than the one shown for 1941 in the MPL, and quite a sturdy affair and keeps the radiator shroud and a bottom front panel apart. It doesn’t attach to the grill as Brad has pointed out about the 1939 and 1940 models.
Also, on the left side of the shroud there is something like a card holder which you can see in the upper half of the picture. No stand up frame as Harry’s but small triangles pushed up from the mother panel.
No card holder on the right kick panel nor anywhere else in that area.
Now what?

Hilmar.

Thank you everyone for replying on this, I do sincerely appreciate it. The mid year change makes more sense to me than the alternative of them always being removed and not replaced but noone knows the tribal lore behind why. Would explain Steve's shroud's hole with no evidence of a fastener ever being there too. I don't have the build date for my car but it was an early car being delivered in November 1940 so that fits with the theory too so I'm glad I'm putting it in again to be faithful to the car.

I've attached a photo of the baffle and I have circled a hole in it. As I mentioned previously and confirmed by Hilarius the part itself vdoesn't look anything like the MPB illustration.

Wondering if Steve, Harry or Hilarius since you have cars with the part if you'd mind taking a look and seeing if you have a corresponding hole and if so what it's for? Also if you can see the boltheads on the top, per my original post can you tell me if they're the concave or 'w' type? If they're buried they're buried, as I noted I received a mix of different ones with the part.

I don't see what the hole would be for, either as pass through or fastened there. Plus it's a little crudely done, doesn't seem factory but I suppose a dealer add on could be that way. (The donor car was not a foglight car if wiring for that would be there. Just a guess of the only thing I can think of that might have a central point but need termination on both sides. I don't know).

Re K8096's thought of a previous discussion years ago, again I'm earnest but at less than 5 years relatively new. (Or the query I did prior to submitting the question somehow was insufficient.)

Thanks again guys -
Scott

Scott, That baffle looks like the one in my car. It is very hard to get to with the grill in. I will check it out again tomorrow afternoon and let  you know more detail. Hilmar, The stamping in your photo is the same as the 1948 series 62 ( and 61 I assume) has in the center of the radiator support for the owner's card.     Harry

None of the 41s I've owned has ever had that particular baffle Scott only the small one that it shows in your parts book illustration so I can't help you on fixings.  As for the extra hole you mention, thats definitely a drill hole and not a factory pressed hole so added for something later. An extra horn perhaps when the originals failed?

Scott, I checked again and the baffle in my car is like the one you show. There are three bolts holding the top portion. The lower one is just behind the guide hole for the hood and there is one in the middle and 5" up for the third one. The bolts go in from the top and are held by threaded inserts in the baffle. The bolts in mine are 1/4-20 with a "w" on the head. Bobby B had an explanation on a recent thread for the markings on the bolts which designates the manufacturer.    Harry

Harry, thanks for looking and getting back to me. I'll use the 'w' bolts then. I've run a chaser down all the threaded inserts and cleaned up the threads on the 'w' bots.

Last thing, I'd asked about color - natural, cadmium, or black painted like the shroud?

- Scott

Scott
My 41 60S came to me w/o this baffle, and I also chose to find and install one. In case the later production story is true, my car was a March 41 build, and it also did not have the 2 support rods from the firewall.

I would beg to differ on the value of this part. Without it there is less support for the hood latch mechanism and I did note that the top panel of the core support assembly was distorted a bit in that area. There is also reduced stiffening of the core support assembly to the grille.

Paul

This is a funny topic for me mostly because I am possibly ADD and a huge procrastinator...When I bought the my 41 it had a bent front panel that was damaged from the previous owner loading it on a trailer.  I took the entire front end apart to replace it and ofcourse explore.  After I put it all back together, you guessed it, forgot the brace.  It is still floating around between the trunk and my shop.  Cannot really tell you where it right now is but I promise to put it back on...someday.  That is my theory.  It also appears to be apart of the strength of the upper "grill area"  I do notice without it I have probably a  slight measurable sag. 

I'm not sure about the color or finish on the bolts. I definitely agree about that baffle adding strength to the core support.    Harry

I couldn't find anything in Authenticity Manual on bolt finish. Would likely depend on how well they wanted the subassembly parts painted. If they didn't care about care metal areas on the core support and brace, they could have assembled, then painted. If they did care, paint then assemble would be the sequence, and bolt heads would be natural finish. FWIW,  I did paint then assemble route.  I used 18-8 stainless hardware, bead blasted to dull finish similar to original zinc.

Paul

Thanks Paul and Harry.

I know my front end is lopsided, by nearly 1/2 inch side to side as I recall although it's been quite awhile since I measured it. Do understand that the 41 front end takes some work to line up but suspect some shipping damage may have occurred and the stars in my eyes blinded me to it at the time...

I've only seen one original car since this was on my mind, as a favor from a friend. It's fasteners were natural and so that 's what I'm going to do with mine as well as you describe with the paint then assemble method. I figure I will either be correct, or if I find out they went black with the shroud it's easier to remove and paint them than to remove paint and polish them up again. (The parts car from which I obtained them had been spray bombed flat black in the entire underhood area except the motor so all fastener heads are black). While as I'd noted earlier I obtained a variety of fasteners with the baffle I should be able to put together 3 with the 'W' stamping for the top, and for the underneath will likely use stainless I already have which are prepared in the manner you describe plus a clearcoat. I did this with the original mudpan bolts I was given and it's worked out well so far.   

Paul, thank you for looking through the Authenticity Manual. I do have one, but still stumble. For example my recent post on the heater ducting.  Although I'd read through the relevant sections to that area I'd missed a photo of it shown in the Accessories section. <slapping forehead>.

Harry, I've looked and can't seem to find the post by Bobby. I have emailed him directly about either a link or the information itself. 

Thanks again gentlemen.
-Scott

Scott
Your baffle is the same as the one I added back to my car, except I do not have the hole you circled in mine. Perhaps this is a hole added by its previous owner for some unknown use?  There is no reason I recall for factory wiring to pass thru this area.

Paul

Thanks Paul. I'm of the same opinion regarding the hole. And Harry, thanks again for the tip regarding bolt head markings - Bobby kindly sent me the link. Makes me feel much better about some of the randomization I found on the parts car (factory was random vs all being mechanics over the years swapping stuff around).

Finally took a look at my 41 today and yes I do have that support bracket installed.

Interesting Joe. Did you happen to notice if the boltheads were natural or painted black like the shroud?

Scott